Topic: X4 is really overrated

[Treleus]

The concept of X's compassion has been a part of the series from the get go. Irregular Hunter X accurately represents it at the time of the first game.

Yeah, but I didn't like how X's compassion was portrayed as the series progressed. His performance came off as forced most of the time, proved to be directionless (without much change or a satisfying resolution), and eventually devolved him into a secondary role with wishy-washy tendencies. At least with the first three X games, his emotional responses were either limited, implicit, or relegated to a third-person epilogue soliloquy. They flowed naturally with the game and didn't interrupt it, rather than standing in stark contrast with it.

It's kinda like how Cloud's development in FF7 was virtually ignored in Advent Children, effectively rewriting the character into a hopeless mope in order to send a message that weak people can be strong. That's cool, but don't throw the good parts of the character's history away to execute a pitiful drama fest. At worst, it just showed a terribly childish example of how to deal with remorse or adversity. Same with X: when his character boils down to talking about how fighting sucks while still fighting the same fight, like he's got no choice or alternative in the matter, that seems to me like poor storytelling and a bad message. While MHX sorta does the same thing, I agree that it restarted X's character in the right direction.

Nothing in those games stops you from using the buster all the time.

I know that, but I prefer how the X series focused on buster/armor gameplay versus how the Zero/ZX series focused more on melee gameplay. Just because I can play any of those games with the buster all the time doesn't mean it's the same.

[Ladd Spencer]

Zero series doesn't have to focus on melee. My main weapon is the Buster. and depending on my mood and the game my other one will be the Saber or the Recoil Rod. Except in 2 I go Chain Rod & Saber.

[Treleus]

The Chain Rod was fun. I think I had the most fun in the Zero series between Z2 and Z4; Z2 for the weapons and level design, and Z4 for the bosses and music. I should revisit them one of these days. Except Z1. It's so dull and plodding.

If nothing else, Capcom would be awesome if they released a Mega Man X collection for 3DS. I'd play the [parasitic bomb] out of it.

[Ladd Spencer]

Z1 is the most exciting [parasitic bomb] ever. Z4 is crap.

[Treleus]

No, man. No. You--NO. Nnnn--

I played some Z1 recently on a roadtrip. Got tired of it after 2-4 missions. Maybe I'd gotten too used to awkwardly dual-wielding buster-and-saber in ZX with four buttons instead of just two, but I couldn't be assed to keep going. The music was boring and the dialogue-delimited pacing got repetitive. I get that it was going for a more dynamic Mega Man experience, and it did that with the train, the big demolition tank (arguably my favorite part of the whole game), and the base invasion, but the whole experience lacked polish, didn't really engage or motivate me much, and leveling up my weapons wasn't fun. Maybe I just picked the most boring levels "missions" to start with:

Train >>> Desert >>> Lab >>> Power Plant

Also, before I can even start firing charge shots, I have to upgrade my buster to shoot a fourth shot. Lame ass. I ended up farming the same shooty tower things in order to be able to face Aztec Falcon @ Intro Stage 2 with a fist full of charged shot. Maybe it's just the fact that that's all I need to do to get stronger weapons that bugs me. It probably would've been more fun to find parts and have Cerveau upgrade my stuff instead of wacking at things until I get a +1 at wasting time.

But anyways, it's so cool that X4 is like two alternate realities in one game.

[Zan]

Same with X: when his character boils down to talking about how fighting sucks while still fighting the same fight, like he's got no choice or alternative in the matter, that seems to me like poor storytelling and a bad message.

I don't recall X's character ever truly devolving into a parody of himself. You might say X7 comes close, but in that one he actually gets more flack for actually sticking to his pacifism than for returning to combat at the end of the game.

No, man. No. You--NO. Nnnn--

I played some Z1 recently on a roadtrip. Got tired of it after 2-4 missions. Maybe I'd gotten too used to awkwardly dual-wielding buster-and-saber in ZX with four buttons instead of just two, but I couldn't be assed to keep going. The music was boring and the dialogue-delimited pacing got repetitive. I get that it was going for a more dynamic Mega Man experience, and it did that with the train, the big demolition tank (arguably my favorite part of the whole game), and the base invasion, but the whole experience lacked polish, didn't really engage or motivate me much, and leveling up my weapons wasn't fun. Maybe I just picked the most boring levels "missions" to start with:

Train >>> Desert >>> Lab >>> Power Plant

Also, before I can even start firing charge shots, I have to upgrade my buster to shoot a fourth shot. Lame ass. I ended up farming the same shooty tower things in order to be able to face Aztec Falcon @ Intro Stage 2 with a fist full of charged shot. Maybe it's just the fact that that's all I need to do to get stronger weapons that bugs me. It probably would've been more fun to find parts and have Cerveau upgrade my stuff instead of wacking at things until I get a +1 at wasting time.

What you ought to do, is throw your rank out the window. Manually forfeit all the mission after Aztec Falcon and go straight to the base invasion, followed by Neo Arcadia. It is a thrill to tackle the final area while your weapons are still upgrading; you'll be hoping for the occasional level-up once you hit tough times.

[Treleus]

I don't recall X's character ever truly devolving into a parody of himself. You might say X7 comes close, but in that one he actually gets more flack for actually sticking to his pacifism than for returning to combat at the end of the game.

For me, it started as soon as X got a voice and dialogue in X4. Once the uncooked ham of acting was thrown it, you knew the story and the characters were going to spoil fast. X7 ended up being the least subtle and most asinine about it in the context of an action game. Having your main guy bail on the fight to go pacifist while the series is still going comes off as bad timing. I might've been more interested in X's retirement if he had some sort of plan or place in the story other than sitting around and yell at people until you unlocked him. If he ended up going rogue and/or moonlighting as an adversary, then his character would've become much more interesting. Plus, it would've been a decent opportunity to turn him into a sweet boss. I'd still be pissed that he wouldn't be the main starting character, though; I'd actually prefer playing his perspective as a radical fugitive disillusioned with his duty as a Maverick Hunter.

What you ought to do, is throw your rank out the window. Manually forfeit all the mission after Aztec Falcon and go straight to the base invasion, followed by Neo Arcadia. It is a thrill to tackle the final area while your weapons are still upgrading; you'll be hoping for the occasional level-up once you hit tough times.

Oh, damn. I didn't realize Z1 was one of those games. You know the kind: X5, X6 ... Anyways, I'll try that out soon.

That kind of consequence-based dynamic gameplay is exactly the kind of stuff I want to see, but not executed like that. It's unintuitive, unguided, and unconventional gameplay.

[Nexus]

Oh, damn. I didn't realize Z1 was one of those games. You know the kind: X5, X6 ... Anyways, I'll try that out soon.

That kind of consequence-based dynamic gameplay is exactly the kind of stuff I want to see, but not executed like that. It's unintuitive, unguided, and unconventional gameplay.

Hoo boy, the moment I found out that dying in Zero 1 basically meant 'reload your save or you don't get a second chance' (outside of -very- limited retries), I about freaked out. X5 had an interesting approach, letting you continue with the plot / advance to the final levels at literally any time you want (with some randomization in there), but the first Zero game is just so cruel in how it handled that. Infact, the near-whole of Z1, while fun to conquer, is also so much more sadistic than the rest of the series. Even when its successors start that "GET AN A-RANK TO GET MORE MOVES" bullshit, at least it's optional moves rather than required, but Z1 just takes the cake in raw difficulty.

More on-topic, I still don't know what to think on the earlier voice actors of the X series. X4 was crummy, but it was a product of its era - much less a Capcom product, where any english dubbing was practically guaranteed to be poor. But I preferred corny and bad-yet-hilarious voice acting (unless it's X7's, simply put) to, well, X5's "BNPBNPBNPBNPBNPBNP BNPBNPBNPBNP BNPBNPBNP" sound. When sandwiched between X4, which at least had the animated cutscenes sprinkled about, and X6, which had every cutscene given voice acting with said VAs left without a dub (X Collection just seems so.. awkwardly silent, dammit), it's really annoying and feels very low budget-y.

Seriously, X6 was a huge rushjob (like Breath of Fire 4 was), yet somehow it feels less low budget than X5. Even X4 feels like it had more production quality in it, but then it's the only game alongside Super Rockman Adventure and Classic 8 to have animated FMVs - in the sense of literal anime / drawn animation - and all; just weird that the big ol' [intended] finale seemed kinda cheap.

[Treleus]

I think the difficulty of Z1 is culminated in large part by the new challenge of dual-wielding weapons, as well as the limited buttons at your disposal. It was like playing Mega Man X6 with an NES controller. Kind of awkward.

I wasn't aware Breath of Fire IV was a rush job. I liked III better, but I understand IV is the most successful or well-received of the series.

[Hypershell]

The full and sole reason Z1 is challenging is because it punishes you for using any upgrades in the game other than weapon levels.  Inticreates' concept of difficulty simply blows.

The concept of X's compassion has been a part of the series from the get go. Irregular Hunter X accurately represents it at the time of the first game.

Yeah, I distinctly recall X3's manual mentioning X hating violence.  That and text epilogues of the SNES games basically amount to X questioning why Reploids have to kill each other.

It's a shame that the crappy localization masks it, but X6 was perhaps the best presentation of X's character.  Throughout the series, "hesitation" is the name of the game when showing off X's big heart, but X6 was one of the rare times that X was both determined and compassionate.

[Treleus]

It isn't just the localization. It's the presentation. Also the way the game hides a crucial bit of story behind a grind wall. It's the same kind of low-budget, backwards, and ineffective approach to conveying plot and characters that X5 suffers from. Even with voices, X7 and X8 didn't fare too much better. I mean, I haven't seen an X game that's delivered a dynamite good story better than X1 or X4. The great thing about how story worked in those games is that, in X1's case, the story aligned perfectly with the player's basic motivations to progress: kick Vile's ass, and then get vengeance for Zero. In X4's case, it was an interesting story as well as a fun game. X7 established better moods during its numerous cutscenes, and it had a really interesting scenario of sanctioned vs unsanctioned Maverick Hunters, so it only began to approach the kind of interesting storytelling that X4 brought to the table. They could've even salvaged the whole "X isn't fighting" angle better from a story perspective; I would've made him a playable character with his own separate arc from Zero's & Axl's, maybe even breaking the play paradigm of 8-bosses and [parasitic bomb] to accommodate his personal quest.

[Protoman Blues]

Only Zero had an interesting story in X4.

[Joseph Collins]

Not true.  X and Magma Dragoon had some words.  But no anime cutscene together. 

[Treleus]

Only Zero had an interesting story in X4.

I was talking more about the implication of Repliforce as criminals, and their responding with separatism. This is regardless of how X or Zero play into the story, because aside from a few differences, they're both the same. Kill bad guys, stop the coop, defeat Sigma, leave before place goes splodey.

[Protoman Blues]

I was talking more about the implication of Repliforce as criminals, and their responding with separatism. This is regardless of how X or Zero play into the story, because aside from a few differences, they're both the same. Kill bad guys, stop the coop, defeat Sigma, leave before place goes splodey.

Oh that aspect of the story. I thought that was kinda silly. I mean, an implication here and there and what looked like zero negotiation between the Repliforce and Maverick Hunters or govt. and hey, rebellion!

[Nexus]

Oh that aspect of the story. I thought that was kinda silly. I mean, an implication here and there and what looked like zero negotiation between the Repliforce and Maverick Hunters or govt. and hey, rebellion!

"They think you're responsible for the fall of the city! Drop your weapons and come with us so we can clear it up!"
"YOU ORADAR US TO CAST ASIDE OUR HONOUR?! WE WILL DO NO SUCH THING"

minutes later

"THEY WANT US TO DROP OUR WEAPONS FOR INVESTIGATION. WHAT SHALL WE DO?"
"BUILD A GIANT-ASS SPACE CANNON SO THEY DON'T TRY TO KILL US ALL"

[Ladd Spencer]

coop

Dude it's coup. I'm saying this mostly because I feel it's important that everyone realize how silly Zero sounds mispronouncing it. Just wanted to make sure you were on the same page.

[Flame]

"They think you're responsible for the fall of the city! Drop your weapons and come with us so we can clear it up!"
"YOU ORADAR US TO CAST ASIDE OUR HONOUR?! WE WILL DO NO SUCH THING"

minutes later

"THEY WANT US TO DROP OUR WEAPONS FOR INVESTIGATION. WHAT SHALL WE DO?"
"BUILD A GIANT-ASS SPACE CANNON SO THEY DON'T TRY TO KILL US ALL"

Not all Reploids are smart indeed.

Colonel is pretty much SOLELY responsible for the Repliforce war.

[Sakura Leic]

Magma Dragoon is no better either, he started this thing because he wanted to fight against X and Zero and killed thousand of people just for that goal.

[Nexus]

Magma Dragoon is no better either, he started this thing because he wanted to fight against X and Zero and killed thousand of people just for that goal.

Instead of actually trying to clear their name appropriately or anything due to a blatant frame-up, though, they immediately claim the Maverick Hunters are trying to dishonor them and jump the gun in not only trying to separate into their own nation, but also build the Final Weapon. Really, Sigma had good reason to be laughing his ass off behind the scenes because of how completely idiotically the Repliforce handled the whole situation as a condoned military organization going against orders.

[Zan]

Who says they built Final Weapon?

[Flame]

It's totally possible they already had the Final Weapon, and simply migrated to it as a base of operations once they left Earth.

Or it was some kind of super weapon/earth defense weapon left over from whenever and they appropriated it.

[Nexus]

Good point. Did any supplementary material ever detail Final Weapon, or was it just 'there' for the sake of the game's final levels?

[Karasai♪]

speaking of final weapon, how come it appears in X8? 

[Joseph Collins]

Because Optic Sunflower needed an orbital cannon.  That, or the same reason the Repliforce logo appears in Zero 1.