Topic: What concepts do you think should have been touched on more in this series?

[Jericho]

OK, so this is going to be a strange thread if only because I was inspired to make it after deciding on a secret art project for Megaman's 25th I hope I'll get done as well as looking back on a terribly ancient fan fiction idea I had. (Yeah I know. )

It involves one of the more fascinating concepts left in limbo post conclusion of the Zero series in my opinion. I was thinking about the Ten Shining Weapons/The Shining Arms and wondering what kind of implications something like that would have on both the X series/story line from the era of the X games as well as the Zero series' lightly touched on prehistory. For those of you who don't know what this is, the reference here is to the weapons possessed by 10 heroes who were said to help end the fighting of the latter Maverick Wars/Elf Wars and thus the legacies of their owners. Of the ten, six were confirmed in the Perfect Works between good ol' Blue (X) & Red (Zero) along with the Guardians. If we stick to the canon presented though, the Guardians weren't present for the Elf Wars and gained the distinction for service to Neo Arcadia, whether it be from fighting as the city's defenders or for their help in revitalizing the world before reassembling in Neo Arcadia to serve as Guardians of Copy X and eventually the city itself.

Now of course this all lead to speculation at the time that Axl was going to get his dues retrospectively through this canon designation, after all with all the concessions and decisions made to accomodate the X series story lines post X6 and Axl's own rise to prominence as a hunter of similar rank to X & Zero as well as a reploid/robot of equally unique design, it would seem like this was a no-brainer for an entry. Between the decisive manner in which ZX's universe starts curtailing things and making its furthest direct reference point Zero 4 alone (Model Ws and Ragnarok) and ZX: Advent's complete denial of the Model A character sharing any lineage with Axl however, we're still left to wonder. (ZXA almost went as far as to suggest this character didn't exist previously with the powerful emphasis on Model A being intrinsically Albert's.)

Gotta admit, a part of me was hoping that ZX was going to be used as a proxy to play more with varied types of Rockmen/Megamen based on schematics of these particular figures and still earlier was a honestly "fantarded" wish that this meant the three surviving Resistance members from the Command Mission/Giga City incident (Marino, Massimo, Cinnamon) would come into play even more strongly in the X universe. They fit the molds for unique characters that could have also been adopted into Hunter ranks after their performance with the big 3 of the X series, it could work, right?

With that said, I'm kinda starting this thread to get an idea from the few remaining MMZ heads here on what kind of stuff you think should have made the cut for this series and why. X series fans are also welcome because there were so many strong links to various X series happenings, theories on how they connect are all just as interesting as things designated for the Zero series alone. Also, while this thread is started with the premise of talking about the story/plot line, there is also room for discussion on how the MMZ gameplay mold could have been added to or changed overall.

I'm one of the few people who feels like the series could have gone on longer with all the material they had to work with on both ends (though Zero 4 as a conclusion story would have taken place waaaay later), but I'm still satisfied with how things turned out.

[Align]

I eat up any backstory like it's candy, but there are two bigger things I'd particularly like to know more about.
The Big 4 and their relation to (Copy) X, as well as how they would have acted after they were made aware of their mistake in Z3 - if only they hadn't died.
Cyberspace, what with how it lets programming alter reality, and if Wily might have been aware of it on some level considering he made the Virus.

[Flame]

Advent's complete denial of the Model A character sharing any lineage with Axl however

Only ALBERT states it to be Model Albert. Model A hates the designation. it is more likely that it is made from Axl's past data just like all the other biometals. Only since it is an intrinsic part of Albert's plans, and basically part of his backup, the part containing his plans, data and powers in case he should fail, he considers it "Model Albert". EG based on him should he die.

However, we still dont know where Albert himself got the Copy ability. That is something unheard of prior to ZX, considering how much time has passed since the New gen [parasitic bomb], and ZXA. several hundred years. In which the world was nearly wiped out during the Elf Wars, and had at least a century of misinformation and government cover ups during Copy X and the post war Neo Arcadian regime. And Neo Arcadia was completely eradicated during Z4, destroying anything left of the past.

He had to get that data on the A-Trans/Trans-On from somewhere.

Back on track though, definitely the shining weapons. Thats the one thing that still has no clarification.

I like to think Axl, Marino, Massimo, Cinnamon, along with X, Zero and the Big 4's weapons.

[Align]

But were the weapons themselves important?

[Gaia]

three surviving Resistance members from the Command Mission/Giga City incident (Marino, Massimo, Cinnamon)

Nana was working behind the scenes of the Resistince acting as Navigator, but also survived. I liked to theorize that she was enlisted as a navigator for the Maverick hunters... apparently MHX said that there was more than one Navigator assigned per job and worked more like a communications network of the Hunters themselves.

Also, Marino's weapons MIGHT resemble an X-based version of Harpuia's weapon, but I don't think it was fully confirmed that it was red and had the ability to shoot wind tunnels.

Zero 4 also touched on the subject that Weil was human, but transferred to a robot body. I can't see that happening without the aid of a spychic to guide the soul of the man to the mechanical monstrosity.. I always wondered how they did that, as it bugs the crap out of me sometimes. Metaphor perhaps?

 Cyber Elf development is also I'd like to witness first hand when the cyber elf baby is first made... makes me wonder who.. or what made Jackson. He might be a rare elf, but his origins are just as sketchy as the Mother Elf's.

[Align]

Zero 4 also touched on the subject that Weil was human, but transferred to a robot body. I can't see that happening without the aid of a spychic to guide the soul of the man to the mechanical monstrosity.. I always wondered how they did that, as it bugs the crap out of me sometimes. Metaphor perhaps?

I've had an idea for that kind of concept for a while. Basically, you submerse a person in a nanite "bath", and each individual cell (in the brain anyway) is analyzed, tested for input and output, which is then duplicated by some mechanical equivalent.

Theoretically, you could even do this while the person is conscious, without ever putting them under...

[Treleus]

Psychics? Pffffft. Why use that when you've got high technology?

First time I've heard of these "Ten Shining Arms". Interesting. But I came into this thread thinking of gameplay concepts rather than story concepts.

The Zero series introduced a small handful of swappable weapons with unique functions, such as the omnidirectional spear and the shield, that had more individual depth than the X series' universally chargeable weapons. Also, wielding several kinds of laser-based war implements is a really cool gameplay hook and worked very well in Zero. Could you guys see X using weapons other than his buster, with or without sacrificing his AWS? I'm thinking something like setting a boss weapon on one buster and a second on the other could add some more depth to his traditional run and gun style.

As for what concepts could've been touched on more in the Zero series specifically, uh ... haven't had that much thought about it. The Zero games were pretty solid as they were. Plenty of story, plenty of content, side missions, talking to people in hub world. What didn't it have besides armor upgrades?

[Jericho]

I eat up any backstory like it's candy, but there are two bigger things I'd particularly like to know more about.
The Big 4 and their relation to (Copy) X, as well as how they would have acted after they were made aware of their mistake in Z3 - if only they hadn't died.
Cyberspace, what with how it lets programming alter reality, and if Wily might have been aware of it on some level considering he made the Virus.

The Guardians getting (at the time, I know you're lurking to counter some thoughts in this thread Zan) that inglorious death in the aftermath of Omega's explosion really killed one of the best potential redemption stories for the Guardians imo. They really could have done something special having them as loners of vagrants assisting people of Neo Arcadia escape during Weil's regime leading up to their own mellowing out and learning that everything isn't all orders and action. There's also the idea that no matter what, they still have the "sin" of perpetuating Copy X's regime with seemingly full knowledge that said person wasn't the X. How no one called them on that and forced them to face facts is beyond me.

Cyberspace is fascinating as well, I think in a way, it existed in some concept during the X days and could also be a cool way to explain Dr. Light's ability to keep up to date and provide X with support. More fascinating than that were Cyber Elves though. I always thought that their existance worked in a manner similar to some offspring of the Sigma & Zero Virus in X5 (warping the reality of a reploid by inflencing its coding) and the Nightmare Phenomenon in X6 (having contained forms that move about and provide specialized changes to a reploid they support). Cyber Elves in my mind work on the principal of said reality warping but only in reploids and are similar to a positive version of the Nightmare Phenomenon -- solid tangible forms unique to themselves, even if only visible by Reploids and "special" humans like the engineered/genetically tampered Ciel. That's all a bit of fan speculation on my part though.

Also, Wily. Say what you like about Omega, everyone knowing about the Doctor and his connection to Zero at that point, or the Viruses and thus Wily's "will" all being cleared, it would have been a nice gesture to actually make his intent declared or someone explicitly reference him versus figuring he did all this with the intent of [tornado fang]ing over everyone. Strangely enough, I don't think Wily is malicious, just highly overconfident with a hands off approach in regards to thinking about potential collateral damage. He's Chaotic Neutral if you will as long as it doesn't involve his rivalry with Light.

But were the weapons themselves important?

I feel its more like the mythos behind them (the legendary weapons wielded by the ones who quashed the last era of violence before Neo Arcadia just sounds like the finest kind of propaganda) that makes them so important. With how N.A. constantly [tornado fang]'d with history, I guess something like this was needed to both honor the ones who fought the war while not giving away enough about their identities so as to take away from that myth. Hell, Zero's saber is the second confirmed weapon, and we all know how much [parasitic bomb] the people of that era would give him for being built with unclear intention and being mostly responsible for the wars that broke out by extended reference.

Only ALBERT states it to be Model Albert. Model A hates the designation. it is more likely that it is made from Axl's past data just like all the other biometals. Only since it is an intrinsic part of Albert's plans, and basically part of his backup, the part containing his plans, data and powers in case he should fail, he considers it "Model Albert". EG based on him should he die.

However, we still dont know where Albert himself got the Copy ability. That is something unheard of prior to ZX, considering how much time has passed since the New gen [parasitic bomb], and ZXA. several hundred years. In which the world was nearly wiped out during the Elf Wars, and had at least a century of misinformation and government cover ups during Copy X and the post war Neo Arcadian regime. And Neo Arcadia was completely eradicated during Z4, destroying anything left of the past.

He had to get that data on the A-Trans/Trans-On from somewhere.

Back on track though, definitely the shining weapons. Thats the one thing that still has no clarification.

I like to think Axl, Marino, Massimo, Cinnamon, along with X, Zero and the Big 4's weapons.

In regards to Model A, that's my almost exact train of thinking, but with no further ZX games to roll with, I just choose to take it as its presented.

Psychics? Pffffft. Why use that when you've got high technology?

First time I've heard of these "Ten Shining Arms". Interesting. But I came into this thread thinking of gameplay concepts rather than story concepts.

The Zero series introduced a small handful of swappable weapons with unique functions, such as the omnidirectional spear and the shield, that had more individual depth than the X series' universally chargeable weapons. Also, wielding several kinds of laser-based war implements is a really cool gameplay hook and worked very well in Zero. Could you guys see X using weapons other than his buster, with or without sacrificing his AWS? I'm thinking something like setting a boss weapon on one buster and a second on the other could add some more depth to his traditional run and gun style.

As for what concepts could've been touched on more in the Zero series specifically, uh ... haven't had that much thought about it. The Zero games were pretty solid as they were. Plenty of story, plenty of content, side missions, talking to people in hub world. What didn't it have besides armor upgrades?

I feel like they could have gone and added a lot to the combat system, like making the Z-Knuckle something that was more intertwined into the character versus its own weapon. I also feel as though if they had gone ahead with a Shining Arms plot line, they could have played more with a X8 buddy like system except faster thanks to the engine Zero was built on. They could use the other living heroes/guardians that were around for max diversity in combinations of Zero & __ as well.

[Flame]

Well, technically the big 3 redeemed themselves in Z3 by rebelling against Weil's rule, and helping Zero in his fight with Omega.

Though a lot of that is more from the drama tracks which present Cyber X talking to them, them fighting some mavericks and stuff, Phantom and X musing over Omega and Zero, and then theres the actual in game stuff, Zero's pre and post battle talk with Phantom, Harpuia's mixed feelings throughout his appearances, etc.

Actually, and this is something that even the devs noted, Harpuia is really the only one who got any character development at all. Fefnir and Laviathan ended up being very flat cliche characters with little personality.

Phantom... well, he only got 1 game to shine in, and in Z3 he just spouted a few cryptic words as to Zero and Omega, and that was about it. With the Drama tracks being a bit more of that.

[Zan]

(at the time, I know you're lurking to counter some thoughts in this thread Zan)

I do not counter, I merely provide missing pieces of information and thoughts.

However, we still dont know where Albert himself got the Copy ability.

The theme of obtaining lost technology from the ruins is omnipresent.

I like to think Axl, Marino, Massimo, Cinnamon, along with X, Zero and the Big 4's weapons.

Between Z-saber, the X-buster, 4 weapons used for combat prior to their wielders being born from X's soul and assigned to Earth restoration, plus a lack of distinction between singular and plural in Japanese, I'd say it's more likely nowadays that the ten shining arms were wielded by X alone.

Zero 4 also touched on the subject that Weil was human, but transferred to a robot body. I can't see that happening without the aid of a spychic to guide the soul of the man to the mechanical monstrosity.. I always wondered how they did that, as it bugs the crap out of me sometimes. Metaphor perhaps?

Vile's human body was placed in a regenerative armor that replaced his cells with machine over the span of a hundred years. He is essentially a human turned more and more cyborg until not even a shred of humanity remained.

The Guardians getting that inglorious death in the aftermath of Omega's explosion really killed one of the best potential redemption stories for the Guardians imo. They really could have done something special having them as loners of vagrants assisting people of Neo Arcadia escape during Weil's regime leading up to their own mellowing out and learning that everything isn't all orders and action. There's also the idea that no matter what, they still have the "sin" of perpetuating Copy X's regime with seemingly full knowledge that said person wasn't the X. How no one called them on that and forced them to face facts is beyond me.

How about TELOS and ZX?

Cyberspace is fascinating as well, I think in a way, it existed in some concept during the X days

Cyberspace is as old as the universe itself. It's a computer code representation of reality: a shadow world.

Cyberspace is fascinating as well, I think in a way, it existed in some concept during the X days and could also be a cool way to explain Dr. Light's ability to keep up to date and provide X with support. More fascinating than that were Cyber Elves though. I always thought that their existance worked in a manner similar to some offspring of the Sigma & Zero Virus in X5 (warping the reality of a reploid by inflencing its coding) and the Nightmare Phenomenon in X6 (having contained forms that move about and provide specialized changes to a reploid they support). Cyber Elves in my mind work on the principal of said reality warping but only in reploids and are similar to a positive version of the Nightmare Phenomenon -- solid tangible forms unique to themselves, even if only visible by Reploids and "special" humans like the engineered/genetically tampered Ciel. That's all a bit of fan speculation on my part though.

Sigma Virus, and any of its subspecies such the Nightmare, are Cyber Elves themselves. They're all the same thing. And Ciel can see Cyber Elves not because of her genetic alterations, but rather because of the visor she uses for that very purpose.

[Reaperoid]

Makes you wonder what the origin of the other 8 weapons is, given that the X-Buster and Z-Saber are of the same technology and are apparently of a set constructed explicitly for the Irregular War's "Top Class" Hunter. More so, if Zero has his Saber, and X were to use Shining Arms, then why does X need to utilise (a coincidental amount of) 9 different weapons?

[Jericho]

I do not counter, I merely provide missing pieces of information and thoughts.

The theme of obtaining lost technology from the ruins is omnipresent.

Between Z-saber, the X-buster, 4 weapons used for combat prior to their wielders being born from X's soul and assigned to Earth restoration, plus a lack of distinction between singular and plural in Japanese, I'd say it's more likely nowadays that the ten shining arms were wielded by X alone.

Vile's human body was placed in a regenerative armor that replaced his cells with machine over the span of a hundred years. He is essentially a human turned more and more cyborg until not even a shred of humanity remained.

How about TELOS and ZX?

Cyberspace is as old as the universe itself. It's a computer code representation of reality: a shadow world.

Sigma Virus, and any of its subspecies such the Nightmare, are Cyber Elves themselves. They're all the same thing. And Ciel can see Cyber Elves not because of her genetic alterations, but rather because of the visor she uses for that very purpose.

Great post, but I just want to say that a few of those things I was being facetious with and taking at face value. As for the Ciel thing, that's a real "the more you know" moment for me, I thought it was something mentioned as being inherent to how she was for the longest time.

[Align]

Wait, humans can't see cyber elves (normally)?

[Jericho]

Wait, humans can't see cyber elves (normally)?

Nope, apparently its some digital phenomena that only reploids are "naturally" aware of.

One more on my steadily growing list of things, although this one isn't a big deal. X's comments on how he was slowly starting to care less about Mavericks and just doing his job before his "rest" makes me wonder what a Zero series X would have been like in the field. I dunno if I'd want to see a revival as it'd cheapen his influence and the things he accomplished as Cyber Elf X, but I'd still love to see the kind of growth/seasoning he had between the two series and how he took to circumstances that required combat.

[Flame]

Well as far as Cyber X goes, hes really sort of down all the time. Far more serious than he used to be. He muses to himself a lot, though then again, when you're a dead robot ghost with no one to talk to, that might happen.

Hes always sort of sad. A living Zero series X might likely behave much the same way Cyber X does. only he would be able to actually help Zero out on his missions.

[Jericho]

Just got reminded of another one while posting in that freshly bumped thread. We know as per Zero 2's ending that Weil was planning a comeback, but does anyone else feel as though the way he came back was just too perfect? He pretty much just came up unopposed with everything necessary to falsify himself as a loyal Neo Arcadian long enough to get in and take [parasitic bomb] over. I get his entire shtick is to be the master of Xanatos Gambits in the Megaman lore, but between arriving on the Forbidden Ark and having a "working" Copy X on deck, anyone else kinda wonder if there's enough there for a Zero 2.5?

Which brings up one more thought/question, was he sealed with Omega (if yes, that's a thoroughly stupid move on part of whoever allows that judgment to befall him) or just exiled to the out lands? (making his timely arrival on the Ark more suspect but gives a good basis for where he could have been working on elements of this plan, namely the second Copy X)

Also just for even thoughts on the matter, I know the Eight Gentle Judges were his creations and they influenced some decisions on his regard, they could be moles as well if I interpret this right.

[Rin]

Also just for even thoughts on the matter, I know the Eight Gentle Judges were his creations and they influenced some decisions on his regard, they could be moles as well if I interpret this right.

Weren't Eight Gentle Judges simply modified by Vile?
In that one sound drama, I believe Cubit says something along the lines of: "Lord Vile gave us an upgrade." Meaning, he [tornado fang]'d with their brains or something and maybe even gave them their transformations (though I remember Zan once saying that their transformations might have been there from the beginning).
It would seem more likely because in the other sound drama they act normal, and well... GENTLE.

[Jericho]

I would not be so confused if I had the Perfect Works in front of me I swear.

I see to vaguely remember that they were mentioned to be created by him and not just modified by him from way back.

[Flame]

I think they always were his creations, back from when he was still a Neo Arcadian Scientist. However, they were wise, and well meaning judges. They even doubted Copy X's decisions, noting how different he had become. (they did not know of his replacement)

Their transformations were always there, as evidenced by Mantisk referencing his sickles in the drama track.

"Mantisk: And if I thought I had to take an unnecessary life with these hands...it would be a weight on my mind.  Indeed, that my sickles are dull should be proof of peace."

What Weil did however, upon his return, was reprogram their brains under the guise of an "upgrade".


Cerberian: Goruruuaahhh...!  Stop your whining, you little gnat!  We have to prepare for Lord Vile.  It doesn't matter what happens with your friends!

Harpuia: Did you say..Lord..Vile?  You..what are you talking about!

Foxstar: Ohoho.. While you were lollygagging around, Lord Vile gave us an upgrade.  Yes...somehow it's so refreshing..it's a good feeling!  Hoohohoho...!

As for Weil himself, he was exiled from Neo Arcadia. Remember that after the Elf Wars, Neo Arcadia is pretty much the last remaining LIVABLE place on earth. Everything else was left desolate wasteland and deserts. Weil was put in that regenerative suit and exiled to forever wander the waselands he himself caused. Always regenerating from near death. Suffering, but unable to die.

Omega meanwhile, was confined to the Forbidden Ark, and launched into outer space.

I figure they did not expect Weil to actually survive and pull through. They figure his mind would just break or something and he would veg out. or something. they just didnt expect him to ever return.

However, he did return, and if Z2's ending is any indication, he went back to his old lab to derail Omega's orbit and crash the shuttle.

Since he revived Copy X, (Reploid resurrection is his specialty) Copy X ended his exile. After all, everyone obeys Copy X without question, since yknow, you dont question him. That, and X's disappearance was covered up from the public. Only the Govt knew. Harpuia stood in for X, and when he returned, I bet people were relieved. It was really all because Weil revived him that he rose to power.

He planned it ll out from the start. He put it in X's head that the big 4 had failed repeatedly, an that Weil himself was a good worker and did not fail. he knew Copy X would demote the big 3 and promote him, since he pretty much had become CX's advisor. He knew Copy X would fight Zero, and knew he would lose again, and try to trigger his Seraph mode, and as such, planted a bomb in him to detonate when he did. As such, since he was the head of the military, and the highest ranking official after the big 3's demotion, he used ordinance 8 to make himself leader.

[Align]

Just got reminded of another one while posting in that freshly bumped thread. We know as per Zero 2's ending that Weil was planning a comeback, but does anyone else feel as though the way he came back was just too perfect? He pretty much just came up unopposed with everything necessary to falsify himself as a loyal Neo Arcadian long enough to get in and take [parasitic bomb] over. I get his entire shtick is to be the master of Xanatos Gambits in the Megaman lore, but between arriving on the Forbidden Ark and having a "working" Copy X on deck, anyone else kinda wonder if there's enough there for a Zero 2.5?

Which brings up one more thought/question, was he sealed with Omega (if yes, that's a thoroughly stupid move on part of whoever allows that judgment to befall him) or just exiled to the out lands? (making his timely arrival on the Ark more suspect but gives a good basis for where he could have been working on elements of this plan, namely the second Copy X)

Also just for even thoughts on the matter, I know the Eight Gentle Judges were his creations and they influenced some decisions on his regard, they could be moles as well if I interpret this right.

I'm pretty sure Weil was not in the Ark with Omega, and even if he only started making his plans at the end of Z2, he had six months - or however long the Z3 intro said it was - to bring back Copy X (MKII). Come to think of it, he probably had plenty of plans made during his decades spent in no-man's-land... but no ground to stand on until the Dark Elf was released.

I wonder though, how is it that the Ark was even designed with the capability to return rather than forever accelerating into outer space?

[Flame]

I guess it was just designed to orbit earth.

[Blackhook]

Maybe X didn't want Zero's original body to be lost forever?

[Night]

The ship was incredibly large. The amount of fuel it must have taken to even get it into space must have been enormous. I doubt there would have been enough to get it out of earth's orbit, or at the very least, it wouldn't be that smart to waste that much on sending a giant robot into space.

[Flame]

Well, the MORE economical idea would have been to just retire him like any other Maverick, but I assume that because Omega contained Zero's body, they were hesitant to just destroy it, so they just exiled him too. or they were just sick of all the deaths and exiled him. I really would like to know why they didnt just retire him.

[Jericho]

That's another excellent question in and of itself. I don't think the well wishing for Zero's body to be reclaimed holds any ground given that X & Zero weren't hesitant to curbstomp Omega given all the damages he caused.