Topic: It's dead, Jim.

[Turian]

I don't really think it was that kind of angry manuever, but a bit more about making Capcom their own after he left, a bit for honor's sake. Since Keji left, we've seen a whole slew of bad decisions, and many of them based on the typical japanese style of controlling a business that he criticized in the first place. I'm thinking his way of thinking must've been because of Capcom's methods more than anything else.

EDIT:

http://www.gameblurb.net/news/capcom-refused-to-let-keiji-inafune-to-complete-mega-man-legends-3/

Reasons revealed. (at least I think, I can't load the damn page)

Yes, that makes more sense. I was thinking of American culture, not Japanese. Your dead on for Japanese.

[Bueno Excelente]

A [tornado fang]ing question of honor, then? Of "decency", maybe? The Capcom execs weren't really fond of the man who had created so many franchises for them and made them so much money, and they kept resisting his methods, because they believed, against all odds, that they knew how to run a company better than the man who pretty much made Capcom what it truly was/is. Mostly because he probably wanted to bring new innovative methods of running the place, and they were stuck in their traditional ways. So when he wanted to leave because he just couldn't [tornado fang]ing take it anymore... they took it as a betrayal. And made him leave. And then, they destroyed the projects he had worked so hard to create so they would still happen without him.

So basically, yeah. Inafune may be biased, but without Capcom manning up and explaining their side of the story themselves, I can only conclude that they cancelled Legends 3 out of spite, to put it bluntly, simply and without runarounds. Sad, really, but looks like people in power are like children when it comes to this kind of [parasitic bomb].

[Hypershell]

Nintendo banked on originality back then.

They've been every bit as original over the last generation, though.  It's just that we, the "core" audience, no longer take that originality to be aimed at us.

And I honestly think they saw their strategy backfiring with this. The prototype was ready, but I don't think decent demo sales, for that kind of price, would justify putting forward the amount of cash required for the whole game, SPECIALLY with the 3DS sales being so low. Plus, the Prototype being out would make them even bigger assholes if they decided not to launch the main game, since they'd be under much more pressure. It was a lose-lose situation, and they just hoped fans didn't notice it was cancelled. Which didn't work as well. Now, they just have a tiny bit of drama ocurring. If they had released the prototype, they'd have to deal with removing it from the store, telling people it didn't work, having people [sonic slicer] about having the whole thing there and not trying, people using the tech demo to show how Capcom is unwilling to complete a game... it's a whole new box of [parasitic bomb] to deal with, something Capcom wasn't ready to handle. In their way, they did the smart thing. Even if they were the biggest jerks by waving a much-wanted product for over ten years in fans' faces.

The problem with that is that the entire point of the Prototype was to provide a gauge as to whether or not the final game would be greenlit.  So the fans, at least, knew that the Prototype was in no way indicative that the game would finish.

Hyper, what exactly do you mean by stopping the Devroom?

I mean that the Devroom, in theory at least, was supposed to provide a more open atmosphere to game development, and there are those within Capcom who didn't want that.  Which is probably why 90% of the time, getting them to show anything actually relevant to Legends 3 was like pulling teeth.  Gregaman goes on to make note of such people in his farewell post, as well.  If there's one thing businesses value near as much as money, it's control.  The Prototype version would have pushed the Devroom a lot harder, by people who likely wouldn't be satisfied with simply hearing about Kinako's favorite snacks.

See, the cancellation of the Prototype when it was effectively finished is what stands out to me.  You can't say "they only care about money" when they backed out of a chance to make whatever return they could by that point (to say nothing of the complete and STILL CONTINUING absence of any competition on the e-Shop).  And while there are surely Capcom execs pissed at Inafune, I don't think they'd empty their wallets to the point of paying for another 8-9 months of development for absolutely nothing.  Legends isn't Universe; it didn't fall silent upon Inafune leaving.  If it was simply to spite Inafune, Legends 3 would never have been cancelled any later than the February meeting.

[Flame]

Killing the Devroom makes sense then I guess. Especially with how almost immediately they declared the Japan one would shut down.

[Bueno Excelente]

They've been every bit as original over the last generation, though.  It's just that we, the "core" audience, no longer take that originality to be aimed at us.

If you consider Ferrarri dropping out of the racecar market and starting to make Volkswagens "original", then sure. Nintendo were really original with Wii Sports. Then made a crapload of sequels with other peripherals, which would ironically be some of the only games to ever use the Wii's controls to their full advantage.

The problem with that is that the entire point of the Prototype was to provide a gauge as to whether or not the final game would be greenlit.  So the fans, at least, knew that the Prototype was in no way indicative that the game would finish.
I mean that the Devroom, in theory at least, was supposed to provide a more open atmosphere to game development, and there are those within Capcom who didn't want that.  Which is probably why 90% of the time, getting them to show anything actually relevant to Legends 3 was like pulling teeth.  Gregaman goes on to make note of such people in his farewell post, as well.  If there's one thing businesses value near as much as money, it's control.  The Prototype version would have pushed the Devroom a lot harder, by people who likely wouldn't be satisfied with simply hearing about Kinako's favorite snacks.

Fully agree with them wanting more and more control. What baffles me, is that they could have kept the Devroom going simply for PR reasons, to show they care about their fans. But they went full "evil company" when it comes to their image. They didn't try to justify or connect to the consumer in any way whatsoever, they just did it and left it to the blog people to handle the small things. I don't get it. It doesn't make any sense from a business perspective.

See, the cancellation of the Prototype when it was effectively finished is what stands out to me.  You can't say "they only care about money" when they backed out of a chance to make whatever return they could by that point (to say nothing of the complete and STILL CONTINUING absence of any competition on the e-Shop).  And while there are surely Capcom execs pissed at Inafune, I don't think they'd empty their wallets to the point of paying for another 8-9 months of development for absolutely nothing.  Legends isn't Universe; it didn't fall silent upon Inafune leaving.  If it was simply to spite Inafune, Legends 3 would never have been cancelled any later than the February meeting.

They couldn't make it seem as if Inafune was the only person keeping Legends 3 being made. The team carried on making the game, and they probably had to make up an excuse and try and make it seem as if the game wasn't going to work anyway, instead of throwing a huge baby fit right after he quit. They did that with Mega Man Universe. They probably just saw Legends 3 still being made a few months down the road, and went: "What's his crap still doing here?" I don't actually believe these execs pay any attention to the stuff within the company except for the sales market, what comes in and out economically.

[Hypershell]

Sidenote/personal musing:  For all the incessant bitchery in both Hollywood and the games industry about sequels, there is nothing inherently wrong with them.  It is a matter of balance, not value.  It would be just as wrong to never revisit an established character as it would to never create a new one.

People who look at a sequel, and devalue it on the full and sole grounds of it being a sequel (IGN did this a lot), need to remember that.

If you consider Ferrarri dropping out of the racecar market and starting to make Volkswagens "original", then sure. Nintendo were really original with Wii Sports. Then made a crapload of sequels with other peripherals, which would ironically be some of the only games to ever use the Wii's controls to their full advantage.

So originality is only original if it's aimed at people who actually want the same old [parasitic bomb]?

Which, BTW, on a Mega Man board, generally isn't considered a bad thing.  Many of us have played the same game 11 times over in the Classic series, 8 of which were in an identical visual format.

[Waifu]

[Hypershell]

I dunno, we're just evil.

[Bueno Excelente]

Sidenote/personal musing:  For all the incessant bitchery in both Hollywood and the games industry about sequels, there is nothing inherently wrong with them.  It is a matter of balance, not value.  It would be just as wrong to never revisit an established character as it would to never create a new one.

People who look at a sequel, and devalue it on the full and sole grounds of it being a sequel (IGN did this a lot), need to remember that.
So originality is only original if it's aimed at people who actually want the same old [parasitic bomb]?

Which, BTW, on a Mega Man board, generally isn't considered a bad thing.  Many of us have played the same game 11 times over in the Classic series, 8 of which were in an identical visual format.

I'm not really discussing the definition of originality as a whole, just how the quality and standards of the gaming industry really work around it. The Megaman franchise survived for a long time making series and milking as much as possible out of them, but the fact is, aside from a few new fans gained by some new series on the market, it's destined to never become the behemoth it once was unless it makes something new and amazing out of itself.

Like it or not, games are now an art form. But we're not taken seriously by other media forms in the least. Games stopped being portrayed as the thing geeks play in their basements, and started being portrayed as the things with explosions and guns that everyone plays in their spare time. But lately, many games have tried to change that. Be it stuff like Okami or Shadow of the Colossus, which are critic's darlings when it comes to defining art in games, or be it stuff like Limbo, Minecraft or Braid, which deal with gaming concepts in an experimental manner, for the experience of the player themselves. Gaming is in its infancy as an art form, and yet, it's become a commercial behemoth before it even began to have artists making it popular.

[Hypershell]

Like it or not, games are now an art form. But we're not taken seriously by other media forms in the least. Games stopped being portrayed as the thing geeks play in their basements, and started being portrayed as the things with explosions and guns that everyone plays in their spare time.

Pretty common knowledge on this side of the world.

There are plenty of reasons that gaming as art is not taken seriously, but I don't think sequels have that much to do with it.  Movies are regarded as art and they suffer the same criticism.  The challenge is that a lot of outsiders just don't see past the technology.  They don't see the lasting value of a 20-25 year old classic game (even though Nintendo cashes in on them on a regular basis) and they believe that all games are destined to be rendered inferior to their follow-ups.

[Bueno Excelente]

Pretty common knowledge on this side of the world.

There are plenty of reasons that gaming as art is not taken seriously, but I don't think sequels have that much to do with it.  Movies are regarded as art and they suffer the same criticism.  The challenge is that a lot of outsiders just don't see past the technology.  They don't see the lasting value of a 20-25 year old classic game (even though Nintendo cashes in on them on a regular basis) and they believe that all games are destined to be rendered inferior to their follow-ups.

Thing is, if companies like Nintendo, behemoths of the business, started trying to make money out of new, more artistic, head-turning, clever games, things never tried before, that would help our business alot. Games like L.A. Noir get the attention of the media that we're trying to keep up with the Joneses, but you won't catch anyone other than nostalgia lovers with the old game cash-ins. There's a reason games like GTA appear on the news. They're controversial, just as much as movies were back then. With games, you can do so much more with interactivity, and that's what makes the general public so concerned, and the people in general so curious about these things.

Besides, movies may be struck with the same affliction, but not as much as games. Look at your shelf, or at any game store shelf, and try to identify how many of those games are completely new franchises. Now go to your local movie theater, or to your DVD rack, and count how many original movies there are. Original games can sell just as much as the biggest sequels, like the first Assassin's Creed and so many other games have shown. You just have to respect gaming as an art, and make the most of it for the benefic of the public.

[Hypershell]

Game franchises do not carry the same level of redundancy as movie franchises.  A movie exists solely to tell a story, all other aspects a means to that end.  You finish a story, all is finished unless led to believe otherwise.  Not so with games.  Games are about interaction, and interaction, unlike story-telling, inherently begs the question of what can be done better.  Further, a franchise does not necessarily dictate the type of interaction.  Games like Kid Icarus: Uprising, and Kirby: Mass Attack are sequels, but as games, they are anything but unoriginal.

It's not as if Nintendo doesn't work with new franchises, either.  Between the DS and Wii, they've published Endless Ocean, Disaster: Day of Crisis, Pandora's Tower, Another Code, Hotel Dusk, Nintendogs, Brain Age, The Last Story, Xenoblade, A Kappa's Trail, Wii Sports, and Steel Diver.  But in terms of public perception, all of that is going up against arguably the most powerful and memorable back catalog in the industry.


Back to topic, Protodude's Rockman Corner posted some more recent comments from Inafune about Legends 3.

It's mostly confirming what we could have guessed: That Inafune was literally fighting against Capcom to get the game started, that he knows the development staff was passionate, that he was hoping they could keep fighting without him, but that he's not sure that anyone has the nerve to stand up and be the point-man."

Basically the "father of MegaMan (guy who made the pre-existing NES sprites into character art)" is saying that the franchise needs a new figurehead.  Here's hoping.

[Saber]

Back to topic, Protodude's Rockman Corner posted some more recent comments from Inafune about Legends 3.

It's mostly confirming what we could have guessed: That Inafune was literally fighting against Capcom to get the game started, that he knows the development staff was passionate, that he was hoping they could keep fighting without him, but that he's not sure that anyone has the nerve to stand up and be the point-man."

Basically the "father of MegaMan (guy who made the pre-existing NES sprites into character art)" is saying that the franchise needs a new figurehead.  Here's hoping.

This would sort of beg the question if this whole thing was just a problem of it being Rockman DASH or if it was Rockman period. Inafune said some time ago that the only games getting greenlit at Capcom were sequels and he had to fight for Dead Rising to get released (or rather, he cheated them to get it out). So the question is, is Capcom not interested in producing anything Rockman related anymore period? There's new merchandise coming out which will bring in some new money from nostalgic fans etc, yet they don't want to get a new game on the way to solidify all that?

And his talk about the franchise needing a new figurehead, can there even be such a person? Would Capcom even allow that? We've been hearing the wildest tales like Capcom employees being only allowed to work on Rockman titles in their spare time, so can there even be a future for the franchise without a well-known, influencial senior like Inafune who always was the most vocal about Rockman inside the company? From all of this, I'm getting the feeling that Rockman went from Capcom's beloved mascot to being the red-haired stepchild of the company that no one wants anything to do with anymore.

Inafune has always been the vanguard for bringing out new Rockman titles, but lately it's all come crashing down, with and without him. Even before Inafune left, the franchise was in a dire situation. We haven't had a new ZX title in four years despite that cliffhanger ending, Shooting Star fell flat on its nose and despite the success of Rockman 9 and 10 on the DLC market, we haven't heard from anything new since. It sort of reminds me of Sonic's situation over at SEGA, except that SEGA has been producing some shitty to subpar titles these last few years, whereas Rockman is seemingly going into complete hibernation now it seems.

[Flame]

We've been hearing the wildest tales like Capcom employees being only allowed to work on Rockman titles in their spare time

Rockman 2 you mean?

The first game didnt exactly sell the best. So when they wanted to make a sequel, Capcom allowed it as a side project to work on in their spare time.

I always felt Shooting star reached a satisfying conclusion, leaving the door open for further adventures. Subaru finaly finds his dad, happy ending.

I think we might get a "new Inafune" eventually. But i wouldnt expect someone like that to appear too soon.

[Bueno Excelente]

Game franchises do not carry the same level of redundancy as movie franchises.  A movie exists solely to tell a story, all other aspects a means to that end.  You finish a story, all is finished unless led to believe otherwise.  Not so with games.  Games are about interaction, and interaction, unlike story-telling, inherently begs the question of what can be done better.  Further, a franchise does not necessarily dictate the type of interaction.  Games like Kid Icarus: Uprising, and Kirby: Mass Attack are sequels, but as games, they are anything but unoriginal.

It's not as if Nintendo doesn't work with new franchises, either.  Between the DS and Wii, they've published Endless Ocean, Disaster: Day of Crisis, Pandora's Tower, Another Code, Hotel Dusk, Nintendogs, Brain Age, The Last Story, Xenoblade, A Kappa's Trail, Wii Sports, and Steel Diver.  But in terms of public perception, all of that is going up against arguably the most powerful and memorable back catalog in the industry.

It honestly isn't like that. A movie doesn't solely exist to tell a single story. Nowadays, characters have become franchises, and everything, from 80s shows, board games and old movies are getting remade into new Hollywood. Now, things have become about special effects, about showing off acting, about beautiful sceneries, about so much more than simply "tell a story". A cinematographic narrative isn't something straight and to the point, it's so much more complex than you're making it out to be. But games nowadays have BECOME an industry like Hollywood. With sequels being the only things on the shelf, and new things being far and few in between. Engines and different types of gameplay were rampant in the past, with everyone experimenting to see how they could become the next big thing. Nowadays, people just FOLLOW the big thing, trying to sell it. And yes, while I recognize that new kinds of gameplay are experimented with in the same old franchises, they just aren't willing to create something new for the people. And that's what scares me. They're willing to publish things, but not to make something themselves, as if their imagination has just stagnated.

Back to topic, Protodude's Rockman Corner posted some more recent comments from Inafune about Legends 3.

It's mostly confirming what we could have guessed: That Inafune was literally fighting against Capcom to get the game started, that he knows the development staff was passionate, that he was hoping they could keep fighting without him, but that he's not sure that anyone has the nerve to stand up and be the point-man."

Basically the "father of MegaMan (guy who made the pre-existing NES sprites into character art)" is saying that the franchise needs a new figurehead.  Here's hoping.

Kinda begs the question as to why Megaman isn't just SOLD OFF, while he's still relevant. Capcom obviously doesn't want it. Why not do it like Oswald The Lucky Rabbit, and sell it to someone else in exchange for some other franchise? They have no idea what to do with Megaman, and although they can still make money off merchandise, every year without new games is a year in which the franchise becomes more and more irrelevant to non-fans. Not only that, the franchise could have amazing results in the hands of any other company.

[The Great Gonzo]

Kinda begs the question as to why Megaman isn't just SOLD OFF, while he's still relevant. Capcom obviously doesn't want it.

Maybe Capcom doesn't think it would be spiteful enough. Why wash your hands of something when you can bury it entirely and ensure no one else can use it?

...seriously, I dunno why. If they ever sell the rights, and Comcept can't afford them, then I at least hope the new company will be one that'll listen to Mr. Inafune.

[Bueno Excelente]

Maybe Capcom doesn't think it would be spiteful enough. Why wash your hands of something when you can bury it entirely and ensure no one else can use it?

...seriously, I dunno why. If they ever sell the rights, and Comcept can't afford them, then I at least hope the new company will be one that'll listen to Mr. Inafune.

Thing is, Capcom isn't just a gigantic rage machine that throws away a lucrative thing out of spite. They probably keep it in order to SOME DAY use it again. Problem is, they're in no condition to be using it for quite some time, and aside from that, they could easily make quite some money by selling it to anyone who gives a crap.

[slayer]

Rockman 2 you mean?

The first game didnt exactly sell the best. So when they wanted to make a sequel, Capcom allowed it as a side project to work on in their spare time.

I always felt Shooting star reached a satisfying conclusion, leaving the door open for further adventures. Subaru finaly finds his dad, happy ending.

I think we might get a "new Inafune" eventually. But i wouldnt expect someone like that to appear too soon.

wow i din`t know that......i wonder what was doing capcom back then...if megaman 2(a big hit) is a side proyect, maybe his main proyect weren`t as good as mm2, maybe they never forgive infune`s trollface after his succes...who knows

[Hypershell]

Thing is, Capcom isn't just a gigantic rage machine that throws away a lucrative thing out of spite. They probably keep it in order to SOME DAY use it again. Problem is, they're in no condition to be using it for quite some time, and aside from that, they could easily make quite some money by selling it to anyone who gives a crap.

Mega Man is in the unfortunate position of being among the lowest regarded by Capcom in terms of new games, but at the same time ranking in among their strongest not only in merchandise, but in back catalog.  Even setting aside the usual Japanese/corporate control pride that would likely forbid the idea anyway, they will not sell him off, even if they can't be assed to do anything with him.

How many other third-party re-releases could dethrone Link's Awakening DX?

Saber's Sonic analogy hit a bit closer to home than I'd like to admit.

The "rights" are not going anywhere, for sure.  What Capcom needs to do, I think, is to collaborate with another developer to dampen the risk to themselves.  If nobody within the company can throw adequate weight behind Mega Man, then a business partner such as CyberConnect2 would be the way to go.

That, and we need to bang Nintendo's door down to get Mega Man into the next Smash Bros.  Smash brought Fire Emblem to the west, and it revived Kid Icarus.  It could go a long ways towards helping Mega Man.

[Bueno Excelente]

Mega Man is in the unfortunate position of being among the lowest regarded by Capcom in terms of new games, but at the same time ranking in among their strongest not only in merchandise, but in back catalog.  Even setting aside the usual Japanese/corporate control pride that would likely forbid the idea anyway, they will not sell him off, even if they can't be assed to do anything with him.

How many other third-party re-releases could dethrone Link's Awakening DX?

Saber's Sonic analogy hit a bit closer to home than I'd like to admit.

The "rights" are not going anywhere, for sure.  What Capcom needs to do, I think, is to collaborate with another developer to dampen the risk to themselves.  If nobody within the company can throw adequate weight behind Mega Man, then a business partner such as CyberConnect2 would be the way to go.

That, and we need to bang Nintendo's door down to get Mega Man into the next Smash Bros.  Smash brought Fire Emblem to the west, and it revived Kid Icarus.  It could go a long ways towards helping Mega Man.

They're basically living off the rights and merchandise, which is a typical strategy for them. Doubt they'll do anything with the property itself soon, but maybe someone within the company will grow a backbone. Maybe after Cyber Connect 2 wraps up Asura's Wrath, they'll ask if they can do something with Legends 3, and they'll work something out.

The Sonic analogy isn't really working IMO, because although Sega didn't know what to do with him for years, they certainly kept trying for new ways to do something. Ten bad years of games also adds to ten years of trying something new, trying new control schemes, main characters, art style, team redefinitions, staff, gameplay, level design... they recently settled on the Unleashed/Colors/Generations scheme, probably because they've sunk in enough cash into the Hedgehog Engine. Let's hope that doesn't lower the bar anytime soon. Sega KNOWS Sonic is a very important franchise for them, and they want to sink in enough money to make it work, not just as something that sells to the fans anyway because they know they'll buy it. But they don't want to be shown as a company that stops caring. Their PR is quite good, and they've shown they listen to fans with stuff like the Yakuza translation thing which went badly with 3 and was fixed with 4.  Yakuza might be their main franchise in Japan, but Sonic's their main franchise in the world, and they do care about it. They want to make it relevant to everyone again.

[Hypershell]

Right on.  I meant that in more of a "public perception" than a "how the company is handling it" way.

[Bueno Excelente]

Yep. And I'll say it... I honestly think Megaman could use some soul-searching for a few years, even if that would result in a pile of crappy games, in an attempt to rediscover itself into a whole new way. Maybe he'd come out winning. He's certainly a much easier character to work with than Sonic when it comes to gameplay.

He could certainly go through the gameplay hoops that the Metroid franchise has gone through in the past few years.

[Align]

Hum, well... What's left that Megaman hasn't done? An RTS or a first-person shooter?

[Bueno Excelente]

Hum, well... What's left that Megaman hasn't done? An RTS or a first-person shooter?

FPS, RTS, TPS, a GOOD 3D platformer, racing, a more big arcade action focused 2D platformer ala Metal Slug or Gunstar, a brawler, a Metroidvania, a WRPG, a story-led choice game, a fighting game, any game with stealth mechanics, a schmup, a roguelike, an adventure game, a minigame collection, a second character spinoff, a sandbox mission-led game...

Tons of styles to explore, and within each style, a ton of gameplay styles to explore. But honestly, I was more talking about keeping the regular style people are familiarized with, while changing up the gameplay, the way Prime and Other M were different.

[Flame]

Megaman has done racing, Though they should do it again, because Battle and Chase was so damn fun. A modern version would be sweet.

Ive also been waiting for a good 3D megaman platforming forever. I wish we would get one of those. Its certainly possible, but I would give it to an outside party to handle. I dont think Capcom could do it.


Say what one will about Sonic Team, at least theyve tried. again and again.