King Stages: It only exists to torment the player

[AquaTeamV3]

The blinding grenades always seemed kinda forgiving to me, or maybe I just had the jump pattern down.  I seriously remember a few cases where I thought I had died and found myself perfectly fine after shooting one.

[Gotham Ranger]

Jet isn't that hard...just don't shoot the blind grenades. I replayed the game today with megaman. After not playing for a while I had problems with Tenguman's (Where I died the most) stage.

It's easy enough with Bass/Forte. My issue is with Rock. He always hits the [tornado fang]ing platform I'm landing on with a fist. He spams that [parasitic bomb].

[ST Jestah]

After replaying the game (games if you count the SNES version), I actually found the playthrough with Rock pretty easy. Only problem I ever had with him was that section in Kings stage 2 where you had to use the Cold's weapon to progress (the one where you can just Double jump with Bass, whilst you have to really time your jump with Rock).

Only King stage that was truly annoying was 2, mostly because of the fact that you had to start the whole 3 section stage if you got a game over. Tank Legs is pretty easy, Jet Torso is also easy until it decides to break the platform you were just going to land on. Then it's just beign a dick. Though I'll admit, I stuck with using weapons whenever I fight with those guys because trying to take them down with the buster alone just take too much damn time. Especially with the Jet.

King is fun to fight with buster only once you know how he attacks. I found Triple Combo was a bit easier with Rock, considering the bombs he drops will never hurt you if you're under the platform, and said platform helps with getting a good charged shot to his face. Of course you still had to use Pirate and Astro Man's weapons to avoid the cheap homing attack and laser beam of death.

So yeah, the Jet with the hatred for platforms and the Trible Combo to a lesser extent is really the only things that make that particular chain of stages annoying/difficult...that and a game over.

Funny enough, I actually died once or twice during the Jet fight with Bass...all this talk of Jet makes me wish there were another Mega Man Killer/Enemy Character named Jet...sadly Jet is not a music based name. And we have no word of a new Classic Mega Man game...well there's Universe, but that one is just Powered Up 2 with customizable characters, Steve (BBAMM), Ryu, and hopefully some other Capcom characters.

[ZeroCracked]

I never really got too far on MM&B. Think Pirateman or whoever's stage was the farthest I could reach. Honestly, some people say Zero is hard, it's really a cakewalk compared to this. I mean, the 8-bit games were hard, but this is nightmarish. Still, as stated before, you find a guilty pleasure in playing it.

[Blackhook]

Wave burner does wonders to King's mecha.

[Waifu]

At one time, I would had given up on Zero but after nowadays it is mostly,its so hard its easy now. Not so with this game. As Hypershell stated befroe, it is torute on your hands, keyboard or controller but it is rewqarding when you completed it. There are players out there who can beat this game in one try but I had yet to find such individuals  and if they do exist, I am giving up those guys are monsters.

[Fragman]

I used to believe that Megaman & Bass was the hardest thing I'd ever play.  And then I played Super Meat Boy.  That is controller embedded in the wall level frustration.

[Waifu]

I Wanna Be The Guy is worse.....I never toouching that one ever.

[Hypershell]

I've said this in many MegaMan 9 discussions, but I don't consider I Wanna Be The Guy to be legitimate difficulty, simply because it's all trial-and-error in the absence of warning.  There is virtually no element of reaction or coordination, it's just burning through extra lives in order to memorize where the invisible crap is.

MM9 takes a page out of that book in a few areas, most notably Splash Woman's first vertical drop, and those damn helicopter claws in Galaxy/Wily/Endless stages.

[Blackhook]

Games like that aren't fun

[Waifu]

Games like that aren't fun

Yeah.

[Satoryu]

Contra is all about memorization. Learn where the blimps are, what they have, and where the death traps are, or you'll never beat the game. And they're fun as hell games. So you three can get the [tornado fang] off my internet.

[Blackhook]

Contra is fun, I wanna be the guy isn't

[VixyNyan]

Aww it's OK, Sato. They didn't even like it when I streamed CDi games. ^^;

[Satoryu]

Contra is fun, I wanna be the guy isn't

Alright, you can stay.

Also, my last post was not defending IWBTG. That game blows because the memorization thing is all it has in terms of gameplay. If it weren't for the mishmosh of game references, not nearly as many people would give a damn. MM9, in contrast, has old fashioned Mega Man gameplay to back it up. And the noobtraps are so few and far in between. Comparing 9's stuff to IWBTG just isn't fair. IWBTG's traps are part of the joke. MM9 just got genre savvy and did something different. And don't act like memorizing enemy placement etc. is new to 9. Mega Man's been doing it since day 1.

How any of this relates to MM&B, I dunno. The King stages are just hard, that's it. There really isn't much in way of traps.

[Hypershell]

Contra is all about memorization. Learn where the blimps are, what they have, and where the death traps are, or you'll never beat the game. And they're fun as hell games. So you three can get the [tornado fang] off my internet.

Memorization assists in any game; what I'm talking about is when it's the sole focus due to lack of any possible reaction time.  IE: You lack the ability to learn without death.  That's not the same thing as just being hard, and Contra is certainly not such an example.  Just because you're dead in one hit doesn't mean you don't have time to react and respond to what's happening around you.  Contra happens to kick ass.

The closest I've seen Contra come to that was in 4 on the DS, when enemies spawn directly next to you, but I think that was most likely a development oversight.

That game blows because the memorization thing is all it has in terms of gameplay. If it weren't for the mishmosh of game references, not nearly as many people would give a damn. MM9, in contrast, has old fashioned Mega Man gameplay to back it up. And the noobtraps are so few and far in between.

All agreed, I meant that comparison in relation to a few specific traps, certainly not to MM9 as a whole (though, really, putting one such trap in Endless Attack was freaking evil; I'd rather take on Rock3's 4-phase Yellow Devil any day).

It's not my only issue with 9, BTW, but that's another discussion.  Again, memorization helps in pretty much any game,  and MegaMan was certainly no exception.  But almost never in the NES was it was outright required with no opportunity save extra lives to learn, in the same manner as some of 9's lesser moments (I say "almost" because of how strict Quick Man's beams can be, but even those give you an "introduction" in a fairly-difficult-to-fail screen so that you know what you're getting into).

Take the "blind spike drop" phenomenon.  Look at how the NES does this, such as Wily Stage 3 in MM2, or in MM3, the Doc Robot stages for either Spark Man or Shadow Man.  First of all, you're clearly presented with spikes in the stage before the drop, so you know to be alert.  Second, whatever death trap you're falling on is only a block or two wide, giving you a realistic chance to dodge in on the fly if you're quick.  Now look at Splash Woman's drop.  There is absolutely no presence of spikes in the stage, you drop down a pit, still nothing as the screen scrolls, then at the VERY BOTTOM OF THE SCREEN, a 4-block-wide trap.  You can't possibly see it until the screen is finished scrolling and you're already falling, by then it's too late.

There aren't many such instances, true, but there are more in 9 than there are in 1-3, if not the entire NES library (4-6 are a blur in my head), put together.  It's something that happens when people try to reproduce "oldschool difficulty" when they don't really "get" it.  And I certainly did not expect that to come from Inticreates, given the much better job they did with the style both before (MegaMan a) and after (MegaMan 10).

[Solar]

Now look at Splash Woman's drop.  There is absolutely no presence of spikes in the stage, you drop down a pit, still nothing as the screen scrolls, then at the VERY BOTTOM OF THE SCREEN, a 4-block-wide trap.  You can't possibly see it until the screen is finished scrolling and you're already falling, by then it's too late.

Is that actually impossible to avoid unless you're lucky or know it's coming? I never died to that (it was always the damn water platforms >_>) on my first playthroughs, so I've never been able to relate to this example when people complain about it.

Then there's those claws that grab you which are the other usual complain. Yeah, those are pretty annoying to avoid, but at least like you said with the spikes the stage has been training you to be careful. Well, the Wily Stage is another thing since I don't remember them doing that >.> Still, it's not like it's impossible to get out when you're grabbed, it's just that most of us won't react fast enough to think "oh [parasitic bomb] I'm going to hit the spikes. Wait, maybe I could kill it and save myself with Jewel Shield!".

[AquaTeamV3]

I'm not sure if anyone else has watched HideofBeast's commentated speedruns, but he tends to have some of the most insightful stuff about the X series that I've ever heard.  Specifically he's talked about the issue of memorization (right down to the Contra example) "When you get massacred in a properly intense game, you don't feel cheated, you feel the need to improve".

In terms of Megaman 9, I personally thought that the spikes in Splash Woman's stage were unnecessary, at least with how they pulled it off. The prizegrabbers are avoidable, but you'll never see it coming the first time.  The one in Wily's Castle (3) surprised me because I honestly had never run into on my first few playthroughs.  And since you're free-floating at that point, you really aren't prepared for it at all, let alone being able to escape it.

[Karasai♪]

Then the game would be too easy.

I believe that you can play as Zero in X3 but you switch back to X when you get to the boss

[Police Girl]

I believe that you can play as Zero in X3 but you switch back to X when you get to the boss

Completely not what I was going for.

Zero in X3 isn't that good anyway, too slow and has one life.

What I mean is using Bass in the stages to get through them without wanting to toss the controller (or GBA) at the wall. then switching to Megaman for the Bosses. It would be too easy, the game's advantage/disadvantage system would become pointless.

[Night]

Aww it's OK, Sato. They didn't even like it when I streamed CDi games. ^^;

I liked it... ;A;

[Hypershell]

Zelda CDi music is surprisingly catchy...  I never saw gameplay vids before.

I'm not sure if anyone else has watched HideofBeast's commentated speedruns, but he tends to have some of the most insightful stuff about the X series that I've ever heard.  Specifically he's talked about the issue of memorization (right down to the Contra example) "When you get massacred in a properly intense game, you don't feel cheated, you feel the need to improve".

You nailed it.  Thanks.

And 9 isn't even that hard.  3 is about the only Classic-series game that I'd call definitely easier, and that's because I play the ever-loving hell out of it.  But when 9 does get hard, it's a cheap kind of hard.  10, by contrast, is a bit tougher, but it feels more legitimate.

[xemiroth]

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[xemiroth]

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