MegaMan Legends 3 is REAL, AND IT'S SPECTACULAR...LY IN 3-D

[Zan]

I thought names had a factor in sales?

The effect of naming on sales cannot be proven. Especially since it was the quality of Rockmegaman2 that skyrocketed the series to popularity.

You're arguing the history of the terms, but their actual definitions and timeframes are unaltered. 

So I suppose by 21XX, the new word for Fourth is Force?

Cain's coining of that term originates in the U.S. (Cain's journal), later adopted by Japan with altered dates.  As such, "Maverick" is actually the original term in that context.  That actually serves to damage your point more than it does help it.

Touché. Nice call. Albeit, that just shows how the fanbase misconstrued a term simply because of real life etymology and definition. Making it deviate from what is meant to be. I just don't think Irregular quite carries the same implication as Maverick does, as with Decoy and Carbon. If anything, using the phrase Decoy sounds more antagonistic than using the phrase Carbon.

It's not that surprising as rather frequently the cause of Maverick behavior, or Irregularity, is unclear; even in Command Mission which is chronologically the latest entry of the X-series.  The context of the term was never as misleading as you're presenting.  In fact, quite the opposite, Maverick behavior against one's free will is frequently considered both by fans and in-game characters alike to be the norm.  Recall, if you will, that a great deal of X8's plot in addition to fan-based debates thereof center around that fact.

Somehow due to the nature of the term "Maverick", the fanbase had created the assumption that since Reploids by their creation are capable of free will they are thus able to become Maverick. Instead, with irregularity, the plotline itself carries the exact inverse assumption in that no Repliroid can become an irregular by choice.

[NEO Ness]

I think this argument is pointless.  Its like arguing if Megaman/Rockman's real name is "Mega Man" or "Rock Man"

Look, both are right and wrong.  One's just the Japanese version and the other is the English version.

God, this is starting to sound like people bitching about "The English version of 'that' anime".

Posted on: October 25, 2010, 03:15:48

lol, 8-bit...

[Flame]

Cute. Real cute.

[KudosForce]

I don't know why, but this is somehow making some of the designs more tolerable.

[Blackhook]

...Damnit..too late

[VixyNyan]

I love Dashe's video right here~

It really sets the mood for the long wait for this game finally coming out soon.

[Blackhook]

I couldn't watch the whole thing...too funny and sad

[NEO Ness]

Wow, that video was really deep for me.  Good job Dashe!

(Gah, wish I could find a girl who was that passionate about Mega Man near where I live... )

[Hypershell]

We all do, Neo.

I stumbled on that video the other night when I saw one of my YouTube buddies favorited it.  Awesome, and insanely cute.

So I suppose by 21XX, the new word for Fourth is Force?

Force is a genuine translation error from the X5 manual that the fanbase takes in stride because it happens to sound cooler, not to mention it makes somewhat more sense in terms of etymology than the original term (the "4th Armor" is actually the 5th of the main-series, and 7th including side-games).

Evidently Udon does the same, though I wonder if they were less than clear on that matter.  It's possible that their use of Force is a result of the manual-over-in-game approach they used to dodge the GnR Maverick names (that part they make a note of).

Touché. Nice call. Albeit, that just shows how the fanbase misconstrued a term simply because of real life etymology and definition. Making it deviate from what is meant to be. I just don't think Irregular quite carries the same implication as Maverick does, as with Decoy and Carbon. If anything, using the phrase Decoy sounds more antagonistic than using the phrase Carbon.

Somehow due to the nature of the term "Maverick", the fanbase had created the assumption that since Reploids by their creation are capable of free will they are thus able to become Maverick. Instead, with irregularity, the plotline itself carries the exact inverse assumption in that no Repliroid can become an irregular by choice.

Alright, here's what I don't get: When did this happen?  When did the fanbase allege that Mavericks are automatically free-willed?  The Sigma Virus has been in the in-game spotlight ever since X3.

This is my main issue with your argument: You're taking the (exceedingly loose) literal implications of the term itself as overriding the abundantly clear context established within the games, both original and localized versions.  I have not seen this approach as being NEARLY as typical of the fanbase as you suggest.  Never have I seen the MegaMan fan who did not believe that Maverick behavior resulted from technical flaws such as viral infection; quite the opposite, I recall more than a few who outright refused to accept X8's statement that Sigma went Maverick of his own accord.

[OBJECTION MAN]

That was such an awesome video. So true, and so sad.

[Zan]

not to mention it makes somewhat more sense in terms of etymology than the original term (the "4th Armor" is actually the 5th of the main-series, and 7th including side-games).

The name was given because the recreation was based on the fourth armor X acquired. It does not make more sense to call it Force. Both itself and the two from the sidegames are not considered full fletched new armors.

Alright, here's what I don't get: When did this happen?  When did the fanbase allege that Mavericks are automatically free-willed?  The Sigma Virus has been in the in-game spotlight ever since X3.

This is my main issue with your argument: You're taking the (exceedingly loose) literal implications of the term itself as overriding the abundantly clear context established within the games, both original and localized versions.  I have not seen this approach as being NEARLY as typical of the fanbase as you suggest.  Never have I seen the MegaMan fan who did not believe that Maverick behavior resulted from technical flaws such as viral infection; quite the opposite, I recall more than a few who outright refused to accept X8's statement that Sigma went Maverick of his own accord.

When the entirety of the fanbase cried out over Lumine's words making no sense, reasoning that New Gens are nothing special for being able to go Maverick without the need for a virus, by their own will, because Reploids from the very beginning were created to have free will and thus could always go Maverick of their own accord.

Sigma's matter is a wholly separate outcry of that same time period, because at that time the idea that someone who was already infected could still be sane and have a will of its own, was not widespread.

See, the entire fanbase knows that Mavericks can be caused by glitches and the virus, but what is forgotten is that you can't technically be a Maverick by free will, because the definition is irregularity; to be a defect. Even among the New Gens this belief is held; they can not become irregulars, and Lumine only spoke of becoming Maverick by choice as an oversimplification using the same terms as the Hunters.

[Hypershell]

The name was given because the recreation was based on the fourth armor X acquired. It does not make more sense to call it Force. Both itself and the two from the sidegames are not considered full fletched new armors.

I must disagree.  While you could potentially argue against Cyber Mission/Soul Eraser armors as Light tweaking the old parts (although I do not condone defining an armor by appearance rather than ability), Alia's recreation in X5 is by definition a separate piece of work from the original.  Her armor is a lie.

When the entirety of the fanbase cried out over Lumine's words making no sense, reasoning that New Gens are nothing special for being able to go Maverick without the need for a virus, by their own will, because Reploids from the very beginning were created to have free will and thus could always go Maverick of their own accord.

In all fairness, Vile's presence lends a lot of credit to that.  And then of course there is Sigma, since virus or no virus he remains the cause of it all.  One way or the other, the New Gens are bragging about something that first-generation Reploids did.  They simply have a higher occurance of it.

See, the entire fanbase knows that Mavericks can be caused by glitches and the virus, but what is forgotten is that you can't technically be a Maverick by free will, because the definition is irregularity; to be a defect.

First of all, the fact that any Reploid, ever, has been deliberately created as an Irregular makes that statement outright false.  There are organized, self-aware Irregulars/Mavericks and there are random, incoherent Irregulars/Mavericks.  The terms MUST encompass both scenarios, not one or the other.

And here is why I believe that "Irregular", should still be capitalized (Hey, we could have just called them mavericks instead of Mavericks, right?).  When you get that overly-literal, in either region, you lose the meaning of the term as the series actually presents it.  It is not merely a word but a label.  "Irregulars" are not simply defects, they are threats.  Grey is irregular, but is not Irregular.  Blues is irregular, but is not Irregular.

Second, you're making this a philosophical issue, by using the word "can't" and presenting your point as an absolute.  By stating that it is not physically possible for one to choose to be Irregular (this incidentally makes Weil's taunting Zero in Z4 meaningless), one simply echoes the same debate that exists about humanity.  The sentient being is seen as inherently good unless "flawed", by blueprint or by experience, resulting in evil.  If you work under this presupposition, then evil itself defines the flaw.  A non-viral Maverick MUST have a malfunctioning brain, or they wouldn't do bad things in the first place.  Vile may be seen as choosing to be Maverick, or he may be seen as malfunctioning.  The New Gens may be seen as choosing to be Maverick, or they may be seen as tainted.  Sigma may be seen as choosing to be Maverick, or he may be seen as insane.  Epsilon may be seen as holding Maverick ideals, or he may be seen as a victim of Force Metal erosion.

In all such cases, philosophy is the only difference; the reality is identical.

[Zan]

I must disagree.  While you could potentially argue against Cyber Mission/Soul Eraser armors as Light tweaking the old parts (although I do not condone defining an armor by appearance rather than ability), Alia's recreation in X5 is by definition a separate piece of work from the original.  Her armor is a lie.

That would only be a problem if the X6 version of the X5 Armor would have been the Fifth Armor. But as is, Alia's recreation lends its name from the armor it is based on, not from the number it itself is. As such, neither XC, nor XS, are counted as separate armors to this number; whether the recreation itself does is anyone's guess.

In all fairness, Vile's presence lends a lot of credit to that.  And then of course there is Sigma, since virus or no virus he remains the cause of it all.  One way or the other, the New Gens are bragging about something that first-generation Reploids did.  They simply have a higher occurance of it.

From the viewpoint of the fans at that time, Vile from the very beginning was said to have a defect in the electronic brain. Likewise to Sigma turning evil by the Sigma Virus. Neither Vile, nor Sigma should have attributed to the widespread belief that all Reploids can become Maverick by their own accord. Somewhere along the line, the fan perception changed the original definition to one more revolving around free will, while it should be all about the defects. To me, the term  "Irregular" captures that part of the meaning much more than "Maverick" does, and I can't imagine that such a change did not influence our perception of these concepts, irregardless of the meaning defined in the actual story being the same.

First of all, the fact that any Reploid, ever, has been deliberately created as an Irregular makes that statement outright false.  There are organized, self-aware Irregulars/Mavericks and there are random, incoherent Irregulars/Mavericks.  The terms MUST encompass both scenarios, not one or the other.

It should be entirely possible to create Reploids with defects. And even if they aren't defected, they are grouped among them because of affiliation. That is still not free will; that is being forced inside of the boundaries of the human government's favorite anti-Reploid label. A label the New Generation opposed with the very statement that they cannot become "irregulars" as they have absolute viral immunity.

by using the word "can't" and presenting your point as an absolute.  By stating that it is not physically possible for one to choose to be Irregular (this incidentally makes Weil's taunting Zero in Z4 meaningless), one simply echoes the same debate that exists about humanity.  The sentient being is seen as inherently good unless "flawed", by blueprint or by experience, resulting in evil.

I said "technically". Whether one can become an irregular by choice is even disagreed upon among the New Generation. The majority vote is that they are not irregulars, even if they choose to rebel consciously. It is only Lumine and Sigma that used the Hunters' own terminology (in simplification mind you) and spoke of becoming an irregular of one's own accord. That is, accepting the label you've been given for your actions. However, even if you willingly accept the label, that still does not mean you can become "the definition" by choice. To become the definition, the only option is to choose to lose your sense of self by committing mental suicide through self-infection with the Sigma Virus, or damaging the thought circuit of your own accord.

Only in the time of Neo Arcadia, when the definition of Irregular has truly changed, does turning into an irregular by choice become a much more easily achieved possibility.

[The Great Gonzo]

To me, the term  "Irregular" captures that part of the meaning much more than "Maverick" does, and I can't imagine that such a change did not influence our perception of these concepts, irregardless of the meaning defined in the actual story being the same.

I thought most MMX fans saw "going Maverick/going Irregular" the same way and just used whichever term they preferred?

Also thought interpretation of similar terms was the least of anyone's MMX-fan-related problems. :/

[Fxeni]

As far as the label Irregular or Maverick goes, I don't think it really ever applied solely to those who malfunction or are infected. Take Repliforce for example.

[Zan]

I thought most MMX fans saw "going Maverick/going Irregular" the same way and just used whichever term they preferred?

Also thought interpretation of similar terms was the least of anyone's MMX-fan-related problems. :/

We're talking about whether or not localization can muddle the correct interpretation and intended meaning of a concept by changing the exact word used. Cited were Decoy and Carbon. Irregular and Maverick, and so on.

When I wrote about the subtle distinction between Irregular and Maverick, it was specifically raised as an example in in X8-centric discussion. Within the context of X8, the meaning of the label is of vital importance to our understanding.

As far as the label Irregular or Maverick goes, I don't think it really ever applied solely to those who malfunction or are infected. Take Repliforce for example.

It is not solely applied to those malfunctioning or infected, but its definition does mean such. That is why, when the Repliforce were branded as Irregulars, they hated it; they didn't want to be considered Irregulars. Not because of the consequence, as they were already at war; they hated it because the very label hurts their pride. They do not want to be considered as mere malfunctions.

[Align]

So let me see if I got this straight:
Irregular as in irregularity in the brain that causes reploids to rebel against humans (a physical defect)
Maverick as in Sigma's faction (and any free-willed reploid can join him)

[The Great Gonzo]

So let me see if I got this straight:
Irregular as in irregularity in the brain that causes reploids to rebel against humans (a physical defect)
Maverick as in Sigma's faction (and any free-willed reploid can join him)

And yet both defects and free-willed bastardry happen in the series; it's just that the Hunters tend to assume that all/most Mavericks/Irregulars/whatever are defects. I think.

[Align]

I suppose an infected reploid would be an Irregular (and Maverick).

[Gaia]

I thought most MMX fans saw "going Maverick/going Irregular" the same way and just used whichever term they preferred?

Also thought interpretation of similar terms was the least of anyone's MMX-fan-related problems. :/

I've always preferred to use both synonymously (I.E. Switching between "Maverick" and "Irregular" during a conversation about MMX, so I won't confuse a fellow fan), I blame Magma Dragoon's mistranslation for that.

He betrayed the Irregular Hunters and hid himself inside a volcano.

[Blackhook]

Actually it says that he betrayed the "Iregular" hunters

[Gaia]

Actually it says that he betrayed the "Iregular" hunters

Yeah, basically. Capcom also makes mistakes every now and then.

[Frozen Potato]

Im guessing they forgot to change that. 

[Flame]

That would only be a problem if the X6 version of the X5 Armor would have been the Fifth Armor.

X6's Falcon was a repair Job, while X5's Fourth was a recreation though, no?

[Kieran]

Correct.  At least, as far as I can remember.

They never actually mention the "Fourth Armor" being a replica in X5, but Alia specifically mentions having had to repair the Falcon Armor at the start of 6 (which is the in-game reason for why the removed its flight ability).

Presumably, that's also why the Fourth Armor can no longer hover in X5.