Topic: MegaMan Legends 3 is REAL, AND IT'S SPECTACULAR...LY IN 3-D

[Blackhook]

I submit that Rockman does not generally use musical attacks.

There is no certainty that the term Decoy is meant to be taken that literally.  "Meaning" is a difficult position to argue when the purpose of these people is unclear and open to much speculation.


......

Blackhook, I was hoping to come up with a question as I objected.  I failed to do so.

[Flame]

It's not really over until Inufaune sings~

America and Japan's picks have been said and done, the final verdict would be the staff themselves. It's all up to them now.

what would be cool is if there was a competition between solely the top two. the top from the west, and the top from japan.

[Hypershell]

<Leilei> Decoy?  Is that some kind of jargon?
<Regina> If the meaning is literal, a Decoy is a "decoy".
<Fongling> This planet... decoys on the Earth?  I don't understand.
<Rock> The Decoys... are the humans.

1. Regina is guessing.
2. That's a semantically null sentence.
3. NxC is about as canon as Super Smash Bros.
4. You're over-simplifying.

A "decoy", literally, is a lure.  We have no understanding nor implication whatsoever of why Elysium needs any such thing.

However, we must ask, does the name in DASH refer to their purpose, or to merely their form?  A "decoy" is often (not always) a fake/artificial image of what it appears to be (ie: a fake bird used for hunting).  If that alone is the meaning behind the term's use in DASH, referring to the simple fact that they are artificial creations made in the image of humans, then "Carbon", "Beta", or any other term which distinguishes them specifically fits just as well with no loss of meaning at all.  Whatever could have been misunderstood in that department was already clarified in Legends 2.

With that reference, you are supposed to slam your desk, not object.

Both, actually, but I don't have a sprite of Iris slamming her desk.

[The Great Gonzo]

3. NxC is about as canon as Super Smash Bros.

And here I thought NxC was too blatantly-its-own-continuity to be cited in this context.

[Hypershell]

It's worth something in the backstory-insight shpiel, but seeings how it is "blatantly-its-own-continuity", it's prone to error and re-interpretation that may not be applicable to the original material, and thus must be taken with a grain of salt if it cannot be cross-referenced with other sources.

Returning to SSB as an example, case in point: Ragnell being fire-element.

[NEO Ness]

Wow, even though I started the whole "Carbon" talk, you guys really dug into it.  Is it really that important?  All we need to know is that "they aren't the original humans".

That's at least all the information we could gather from the games anyways, including brief inside info on who the Master is, Elysium, Elders, etc. 

I love that!  because, from those little pieces of information, there are barely any 'definite' answers.  Most of what we're debating is purely theorized with little source material at that.

[Zan]

NxC is about as canon as Super Smash Bros.

Still highly valuable once you actually exclude any discrepancies that exist the sake of actually making a crossover possible. NxC's holds great insight about other DASH elements such as the Reavered, Eden, Rockman Juno and irregulars. We should be fine until we start considering real humans from another fictional universe as Decoys just because Juno said so.

However, we must ask, does the name in DASH refer to their purpose, or to merely their form?

Since we cannot answer that question, we should not be treating Carbon as a synonym to answer it for us. The terms after all very much carry a different impression. As with Maverick, aberrant units and irregulars, both subtle and unsubtle parts of its meaning are lost in localization. For terms that were already written in plain English, it's a change that should have never been made.

"Beta"

That term is even more questionable for no comparable term exists. Both the Master and his system call them Decoys. So where did Carbons and Betas come from?

Both, actually, but I don't have a sprite of Iris slamming her desk.

Why have you not made it yet?

[Hypershell]

Still highly valuable once you actually exclude any discrepancies that exist the sake of actually making a crossover possible. NxC's holds great insight about other DASH elements such as the Reavered, Eden, Rockman Juno and irregulars. We should be fine until we start considering real humans from another fictional universe as Decoys just because Juno said so.

Already covered in my response to Gonzo.  As stated above, such discrepancies aren't always born of necessity.  One must be vigilant.

That said, this tangent isn't particularly relevant to the issue of Decoys, since Regina's statement offers absolutely no context as to how she is drawing the connection.

Since we cannot answer that question, we should not be treating Carbon as a synonym to answer it for us. The terms after all very much carry a different impression. As with Maverick, aberrant units and irregulars, both subtle and unsubtle parts of its meaning are lost in localization. For terms that were already written in plain English, it's a change that should have never been made.

Just like Rockman shouldn't have been changed to MegaMan?  Forte shouldn't have been changed to Bass?  Gospel shouldn't have been changed to Treble?  Blues shouldn't have been changed to ProtoMan?  LiveMetal shouldn't have been changed to Biometal?  Burn KokeKokker shouldn't have been changed to Burn Rooster?

It is what it is.  The localization is consistent across all entries into Legends (both L1 and L2), so it falls into the same category as any other name change.

It is naive to assume fan-based conjecture is above the official localization if you have no further evidence to back it up.  For how many YEARS were we questioning Z1's statement of Zero being turned good by the Sigma Virus?  You're stressing a distinction where you yourself are not certain of what real difference, if any at all, exists.  We have an official, consistent term, and we have a rational explanation behind it.  If you wish to discredit that, the burden of proof is on you.  Otherwise, you have no business going regional-term-nazi on your fellow fans.

"Maverick" and "Irregular" ARE synonymous.  They both refer to a nonconformist.  Whatever differing implications one gathers are personal conjecture, nothing more.  Same can be said for Aberrant, although in that case there is the issue of losing an inter-series connection by changing terms.

That term is even more questionable for no comparable term exists. Both the Master and his system call them Decoys. So where did Carbons and Betas come from?

Probably to stress the difference between the Master, a true human, and the other less emotional characters of his time.  The Master himself states that the two terms are synonymous so it's a pretty moot point.

I'm curious, though, did anyone ever tell us what the actual Japanese dialogue for that scene is?  Because there is a *LONG* pause surrounding the whole "You call them Carbons" line, and if that line doesn't even exist in the Japanese game script, then shouldn't something in that scene have gotten overwritten?

Why have you not made it yet?

If I am ever to do more Ace Attorney-to-MegaMan edits, I will probably be trying to include other characters.

[Zan]

It is what it is.  The localization is consistent across all entries into Legends (both L1 and L2), so it falls into the same category as any other name change.

Consistency is not their forte.
Maverick suddenly became Aberrant Units, Elysium suddenly became Haven, Rock became MegaMan became Mega.

"Maverick" and "Irregular" ARE synonymous.

While both non-conformist, I don't think that's true at all. Allow me to quote my own recent posts from X9.com on this very subject:

The term "irregularity" with "irregular" carries a strong implication which "Maverick behavior" with "Maverick" lacks. It is not Maverick behavior that is defined by being Maverick, it is being an irregular that is defined by irregularity; the exact inverse.

Viruses, glitches in the electronic brain and so on, they cause robots to start behaving irregularly. Making them unable to return to normal, to the way they were built. The term was coined as irregularity because it is a condition, a mental illness; it does not describe an enemy faction like Maverick (with a capital M!) does. The mental condition is more important than the fact than an enemy faction arose from those having the condition.

If I am ever to do more Ace Attorney-to-MegaMan edits, I will probably be trying to include other characters.

A sad Iris sad, she wants to live, so make her move!

[The Great Gonzo]

[Zan's evidence against the term "Maverick"]

Eh, to me, "Maverick" and "Irregular" are about the same term, like Hypershell pointed out. Besides, aren't all the "Irregulars" technically part of an enemy faction, like "Mavericks"?

[Zan]

Not at all, when Cain coined the term, there were preciously few irregulars; those infected by the virus that were believed to have faults in their electronic brain. They weren't an enemy faction until Sigma rebelled. Prior to that they were defects, flawed Repliroids. In that regard, aberrants is a much nicer localization of irregular.

Maverick is simply someone that things differently from the norm, it does not implicate defects, it implicates free will; irregular does not. Hence everyone's surprises at "Irregular by one's own accord" becoming "Maverick of one's free will."

[Blackhook]

Maverick sounds cooler...that's probably the reason they are called that way in the localization...But I do see your point

[Kieran]

Ah... I wonder if we might stop arguing about the implications of a stupid localization and just chalk it up to Capcom USA trying to make the term sound more cool than it really is.

[Flame]

Ah... I wonder if we might stop arguing about the implications of a stupid localization and just chalk it up to Capcom USA trying to make the term sound more cool than it really is.

Because thats what we DO on megaman sites.

also, im going to copy Zan and quote my own opinion on the matter from X9.

[spoiler]Maverick from the start defines "a lone dissenter, as an intellectual, an artist, or a politician, who takes an independent stand apart from his or her associates. "

From the start it is a faction term. Like one would say 'Im a democrat" and the ones with glitches and such are put under that label of "Maverick" much like anyone who is ultra conservative would be put under the label "Republican".

Meanwhile, irregular defines

1.without symmetry, even shape, formal arrangement, etc.: an irregular pattern.
2.
not characterized by any fixed principle, method, continuity, or rate: irregular intervals.
3.
not conforming to established rules, customs, etiquette, morality, etc.: highly irregular behavior.
4.
not according to rule, or to the accepted principle, method, course, order, etc.
5.
Grammar . not conforming to the prevalent pattern or patterns of formation, inflection, construction, etc., of a language; having a rule descriptive of a very small number of items: The English verbs “keep” and “see” are irregular in their inflections.
6.
Military . (formerly, of troops) not belonging to an organized group of the established forces.
7.
flawed, damaged, or failing to meet a specific standard of manufacture: a sale of irregular shirts.

Take special note of that last one.

It primarily refers to the last definition- A brain damaged reploid who "fails to meet a specific standard of manufacture". EG- they are not operating the way the should. they do erratic and/or harmful things, due to the presence of a glitch, malfunction, program error in the electronic brain.

And, it can ALSO be used to define a group.

It also contrasts the term "normal" better than "Maverick" does, as it's primary definition is a lack of regularity, of normalcy, of symmetry or order.

Normal -> irregular
Normal- -> Maverick

Irregular is simply a more flexible term than Maverick, in terms of its usage. One refers mainly to a condition, while the other, an affiliation.

If someone were to scram "The irregulars are coming!"

I would more envision malfunctioning dangerous harmful robots driven by short circuit and program errors than I would a political party.

Whereas "The Mavericks are coming!" sounds more like an organized political party or militia. like a rogue faction of the military or something more than malfunctioning robots.[/spoiler]

[The Great Gonzo]

I see your "CoA is staffed by raging incompetents" and posit this: TV Tropes pointed out that, maybe, the change from "Irregular" to "Maverick" was done because--while "Irregular" could imply a literal brain malfunction--it could also be taken as "non-conformist" or "weird". Leading to nasty implications in that they'd be hunted down, too.

(But, the change never bothered me in the sense of how it's used in-universe, so this just smacks of more "Stupid CoA is stupid")

[Kieran]

I think the Japanese side of things has its own fair share of weird terminology, so it doesn't really bother me either way.

What does bug me is the constant arguing of "CoA is stupid, everything should use the Japanese names because they aren't stupid."

Perhaps if I want to use the Japanese names for everything, I'll move to Japan and start speaking Japanese instead.

[Align]

Ah, if only...

[Zan]

I think the Japanese side of things has its own fair share of weird terminology, so it doesn't really bother me either way.

What does bug me is the constant arguing of "CoA is stupid, everything should use the Japanese names because they aren't stupid."

Perhaps if I want to use the Japanese names for everything, I'll move to Japan and start speaking Japanese instead.

Funny, seems to me like you're the only one denying terms on a regional basis. What I'm talking about is the original term with the original meaning. Whatever region a story was conceptualized in has little to no bearing to that.
 
Furthermore, nobody mentioned the Japanese language. The terms we're talking about are "irregular" and "decoy". These are terms that were written in the English language from the very beginning! It's not as if any of us complained about the translation of such terms as shukuseikan, shiseikan, shimobe and kobun.

See, if you wrote a story, would you like it if all the terms used were butchered beyond recognition in the process of translation, despite all these terms already being in the same language your story is being translated to? Rockman was changed to Mega Man because one man decided he hated the name and wanted something cooler, nothing more, nothing less. Those kind of changes are just pointless and disrespectful to the original vision.

[The Great Gonzo]

Rockman was changed to Mega Man because one man decided he hated the name and wanted something cooler, nothing more, nothing less. Those kind of changes are just pointless and disrespectful to the original vision.

In defense of that, the name pun wouldn't make any sense until MM3 at best (and that's assuming you paid attention to the end credits). And eventually, even the US/EU-version games would assume that his unarmoured name was Rock (Powered Up aside).

Though I read that the guy who insisted Blues be called "Protoman" was rather rude about it--to Mr. Inafune's face, even. That's not cool.

[Zan]

In defense of that, the name pun wouldn't make any sense until MM3 at best (and that's assuming you paid attention to the end credits).

The pun would have made sense if the original manual was properly translated, though.

[Blackhook]

Personally I never understood the change from Forte to Bass. They still kept a music themed name so what was the point? Or did they really felt like doing the Bass Trebble pun?

[The Great Gonzo]

The pun would have made sense if the original manual was properly translated, though.

And what if you only saw the box?

...this is going to turn into another multi-page bitchfight, isn't it?

[Zan]

You buy games for the gameplay, not the name.

And most of the story of NES games is always in the manual.

[The Great Gonzo]

You buy games for the gameplay, not the name.

I thought names had a factor in sales?

[Hypershell]

I recall a magazine article which stated that a game titled "Star Wars: The Used Toilet Paper Adventures" would sell in droves.

Not sure that I buy that...

Consistency is not their forte.
Maverick suddenly became Aberrant Units, Elysium suddenly became Haven, Rock became MegaMan became Mega.

I meant within the Legends series, not across the entire MegaMan saga.  But I'll bite.

Elysium becoming Haven is 6 years after the point.  Further, it is unlikely to carry any canonical significance as all signs point to Serpent's project dying with him.  More likely it was a simple easter-egg.

"Mega the Lab Assistant" is an alleged translation error (I say "alleged" because I myself recall the statement but not the source) which the fanbase as a whole, in addition to any third parties remotely respectful of them (Udon) have rejected.  There has since been no follow-up by Capcom themselves, leaving the term as "consistent" as Vava in Xtreme or Irregular Hunters in MMX4.  It'd be very difficult for me to believe that somebody at Capcom did not take heed of that.

The term "irregularity" with "irregular" carries a strong implication which "Maverick behavior" with "Maverick" lacks. It is not Maverick behavior that is defined by being Maverick, it is being an irregular that is defined by irregularity; the exact inverse.

Viruses, glitches in the electronic brain and so on, they cause robots to start behaving irregularly. Making them unable to return to normal, to the way they were built. The term was coined as irregularity because it is a condition, a mental illness; it does not describe an enemy faction like Maverick (with a capital M!) does. The mental condition is more important than the fact than an enemy faction arose from those having the condition.

This is exactly what I meant when I said "personal conjecture" in my previous post.

1. Comparing "Maverick behavior" to "Irregularity" has no meaning beyond etymology.  You're arguing the history of the terms, but their actual definitions and timeframes are unaltered.  One is the individual, one is their actions, neither can exist without the other.  "Maverick" is a known term outside of MegaMan often associated with rogueish behavior.  I actually find it rather unusual that MegaMan uses the term to define an organized enemy; where outside of the series did we ever hear that?  Most uses of the term "maverick" that I have seen outside of MegaMan referred to loners.

2. Whether or not "Irregular" should be capitalized and the implications that such should or should not carry is speculation; Japan does not use a roman alphabet.  We rarely see the term romanized outside of "Irregular Hunters", which of course is a proper noun.

Not at all, when Cain coined the term, there were preciously few irregulars

Cain's coining of that term originates in the U.S. (Cain's journal), later adopted by Japan with altered dates.  As such, "Maverick" is actually the original term in that context.  That actually serves to damage your point more than it does help it.

Maverick is simply someone that things differently from the norm, it does not implicate defects, it implicates free will; irregular does not. Hence everyone's surprises at "Irregular by one's own accord" becoming "Maverick of one's free will."

It's not that surprising as rather frequently the cause of Maverick behavior, or Irregularity, is unclear; even in Command Mission which is chronologically the latest entry of the X-series.  The context of the term was never as misleading as you're presenting.  In fact, quite the opposite, Maverick behavior against one's free will is frequently considered both by fans and in-game characters alike to be the norm.  Recall, if you will, that a great deal of X8's plot in addition to fan-based debates thereof center around that fact.