Topic: Musings - What Makes X Different From Rockman?

[Hypershell]

My point is that to say Rock hasn't been confronted with "racial" issues between humans and robots is a lie, scope is irrelevant.

Rock doesn't worry about comparing their value.  Humans created robots, that's the end of it as far as he's concerned (and as pointed out in a previous post even Bass holds to that line of thinking).  Remember MM9's ending?  Rock dives blindly into an obvious trap, knowing full well it's probably a trap, all just in case it might be for real.  While I doubt X would have just walked away from that, he wouldn't have been so careless either.

[Gauntlet101010]

My point is that to say Rock hasn't been confronted with "racial" issues between humans and robots is a lie, scope is irrelevant.

Rock doesn't worry about comparing their value.  Humans created robots, that's the end of it as far as he's concerned (and as pointed out in a previous post even Bass holds to that line of thinking).  Remember MM9's ending?  Rock dives blindly into an obvious trap, knowing full well it's probably a trap, all just in case it might be for real.  While I doubt X would have just walked away from that, he wouldn't have been so careless either.

Scope is very relevant.  I think you're putting more emphasis on the "race" part and less on the "war" part than I'm really talking about.  The Maverick wars lasted for centuries and were all started by the discovery of X.  What's King compared to that?? Not to mention that we have a whole LOT more material to talk about in the Maverick War than we do in R&F.  Where's you'r proof when it comes to R&F?  One or two scenes in the one game?  One sourcebook?  How much material of Rock's dillemma is present in that compared to the entire X series?

In an all-out war like that do you really think writers would bother to think that Rock doesn't have some circuit so he wouldn't act a certain way?  I have a hard time buying that.  More likely they'd just write him as fully emotionally equipped.

I dunno about that point on X not diving into Wily's obvious trap. MM is programmed to be 10 years old.  X is programmed to be a teenager.  Is MM's nievete because he doesn't "suffer" or because he's a kid?  Protoman wouldn't have made the same choice.

I kinda think the "suffering circuit" explamation is bullshit.  Yeah, it's Capcom's official answer.  But I think it's bull. The classic series robots are never shown to be hampered in their decision making abilities.  Or their emotions.  Whenever the discussion comes up on their limitations it's always in relation to how advanced X is supposed to be in comparison to them and never in terms of a game's actual plotline.  All proofs against their decision makign abilities tend to be overcomplicated in order to try and shoehorn X in as being above them ... somehow.

Okay, so in Power Fighters MM questions his mission (in a very X-era moment).  In MM9 he feels badly for the Light robot.
X also questions his mission.  He also feels badly about his enemies.

But the differece is ... X has no bias?  Sure, he was made by a human and fights for the Maverick Hunters, but ... no bias.  Right.  Light programmed him with no moral compass and X feels nothing for him at all.
And that MM doesn't constantly worry about it, so he's less advanced?  Despite living in a much safer era and being in a much more childish series where he's never really needed to worry like X does.  So if X had no cause to worry (like MM) you'll be saying ... what?  That he'd just be depressed for no reason and that's what makes him advanced?  And if he didn't worry it's not because there's no cause; he's just not advanced enough or soemthing is wrong with him?

I'm not saying Zan's wrong in what Capcom's saying.  I'm just saying that, when it comes to this ... Capcom's fulla it.

The Classic series robots show no limitations.  Any limits we're imposing on them is artificial and not taken into consideration when the story'd being written.

[Robert Oakes]

This was mentioned earlier, but Dr. Light's statement in Power Battle of robots needing the ability to determine right and wrong by themselves is really the main difference between 20XX robots and X (and Reploids by extension). While 20XX robots can act much like humans, they can't choose whether to be good or bad; they're programmed that way. This is their limitation, straight from the games. It isn't a convoluted explanation.

Otherwise, 20XX robots act human in practically every way. All intelligent robots in the MM series have emotions, beliefs and tastes which stem from the personality traits they were programmed with. Rock was created with a strong sense of justice, which is why he requested to become a battle robot, and the reason he questioned his own methods when Wily accused him of hypocrisy in Power Fighters. This also makes him a naive character since he gives everyone the benefit of doubt. His emotions also allow him to feel anger, which often compels one to do things they normally wouldn't, such as threatening Wily in MM7.

In regards to X's "suffering circuit"... if I'm not mistaken, this is the official translation from MMZOCW:

Sigma Virus

The terrifying virus that causes a Reploid to go Maverick.  The virus actually originated from one of the circuits that Dr. Light installed in X's brain.  The circuits function was to keep X neutral and unbiased in matters concerning humans and Reploids.  Tragically, the very same circuit condemned X to a life plagued by the philosophical question that weighed the value of humans against that of Reploids - a question to which there was no answer.

This doesn't define X's ability as a "suffering circuit". It simply tells in different words what we already knew, that X's circuitry gives him the ability of defining right and wrong on his own, leading him to worry continuously about the welfare of others and the right thing to do. Is it right to place humans above Reploids, or Reploids above humans? This is just one of many questions that X has to ponder within the course of his life, which causes him to treat both equally.

Ironically, even with this difference between Mega Man and Mega Man X, they're actually pretty similar. They both have a sense of justice. They both try to do what they believe to be right. Rock, however, doesn't hesitate as much as X does simply because the righteousness of his actions is hardly questioned. This takes us back to the example from Power Fighters. Rock hesitates against Wily because, for the first time, his justice is brought to question. Rock wants peace for both humans and robots, but is he bringing peace to the robots he fights against? It's a valid argument and Rock has to stop and think about it because he lacks a solid answer for that. He needs to be reassured that he is doing the right thing in order to go on, taking to heart the advice from Dr. Light and his family.

[Zan]

I could have been the case, but as we can see in the ending of Rockman Zero 3, X calls Dr.Vile a threat. Also take in account that X do not worry anymore about the motives of his enemies, according to the ending of Rockman Zero 1. He will still hestate but only for a glimpse of time. X knows what is important.

X keeping his head on straight and facing the enemy is often more a result of influential others, like Zero and Axl, but mostly Zero. Toward Dr. Vile, X has the advantage of being much better informed than the amnesic Zero, that Dr. Vile is human means nothing because he's not suddenly struck with it in revelation format. Furthermore, he's also never been presented with the same situation as Dr. Vile threw Zero's way, ever. The depth of Neo Arcadia's centennial history of human superiority with the human Dr. Vile as its dictator is probably too much for X to deal with... in the time he has before Ragnarok obliterates the world....

Of course, that's ignoring the growth in his character as the lone hero of the endless irregular wars for the sake of bringing up the image of the X we all know. That time period without Zero did a great deal to sadden his character. But how it changed him, is a bit harder to tell. I'd need to get a transcript of the japanese ZERO1 ending for that.

Okay, so in Power Fighters MM questions his mission (in a very X-era moment).  In MM9 he feels badly for the Light robot.
X also questions his mission.  He also feels badly about his enemies.

9 is actually a prime example of how X is different. Much more explicitly even in Megamix. It's simply amazing how great the lengths are these robots will go to be "useful to humans" and how the "human law" must be followed even if it means they're being scrapped.

Power Fighters by comparison is unique in that Wily for the first time uses the rights of robots to invoke Rock's guilt.  You could call Rock's worrying there a plothole, or you could work within the scope of Capcom's setting. He might be worrying, but on a lesser level than X, see Sigma's quote about Repliroids in:

His... worrying... that is precisely the quality that will prove beneficial to our cause. He alone possesses that ability. He thinks more deeply than the rest of us. He feels... Normal Reploids are no match for his art. But... he is unaware of his incredible power.

Toward the major point of the X-series, it's most important to note that Rock never once reaches a satisfying conclusion on the matter on his own and immediately stops thinking of the subject once others get involved. A far cry from X who continues to dwell on matters long after Zero told the enemy that he and his buddy X will kick their asses. Rock might have been given some degree of upgrades based on Right's post-Power Battle research, but he isn't there yet.

Musta been before the "suffering circuit"

X's worrying has been a part of the series from the very first moment. It was mentioned explicitly in the Japanese X1 instruction manual, see Dr. Right's warning.

Of course, none of that matters for us English speaking folks and our theories. But just a reminder that it's a concept well established long before the likes of Rockman7 and up gave us more info about Rock's thoughts on tough subjects.

In an all-out war like that do you really think writers would bother to think that Rock doesn't have some circuit so he wouldn't act a certain way?  I have a hard time buying that.  More likely they'd just write him as fully emotionally equipped.

They'd write him as a person whose views of right and wrong are much more about the humans than about the robots. Because robots are supposed to do as humans tell them to. So it's also good for robots to listen to humans. He wouldn't be constantly worrying about whether he's doing the right thing, wouldn't need another red hero by his side to keep his head straight and wouldn't get magical power boosts to beat two bald psychopaths.

But the differece is ... X has no bias?  Sure, he was made by a human and fights for the Maverick Hunters, but ... no bias.  Right.  Light programmed him with no moral compass and X feels nothing for him at all.

It's not about X's emotions of like and dislike, it's about right and wrong. If Dr. Light turned into a killer of robots, he's forced to think deeply about the matter and would judge that his creator is wrong in his action. Rock is far more simply minded when forced into such a situation. Of course, someone like Blues, who has completely different views, would come to a far different conclusion than Rock would. Thus far, it's still a mystery how Rock would respond to the things X goes through. We can only guarantee it is not a situation he will ever be put in based on the nature of the series and that X thinks more deeply about such matters in attempts to stay absolutely unbiased in a robot vs human conflict.

The Classic series robots show no limitations.  Any limits we're imposing on them is artificial and not taken into consideration when the story'd being written.

They don't show any limitations most of the time because the setting of the series does not allow it. It's too lighthearted to have Rock think about the dark subjects that plague X. In a way, the technical explanation behind their difference is exactly the atmospheric difference between the series. The simple minded kid friendly stories of Rockman versus the angst filled world of RockmanX where biblical reference, psychobable and throwing around of labels like they're rotten tomatoes are every things. They simply created a setting where they never have to think about the deep concepts they've thought up when characterizing, and another series where they always have to think of them.

[Gauntlet101010]

I'm gonna cut a bit to the heart of this - the human bias. 

Even in MM9, many would take Roll's view.  "It's sad, but the law is the law."  You're saying this is because of the limitations of robots.  That they would look at it deeply and rebel, However, it's somewhat of a flawed example.  Because the MM9 robots ask Wily to "fix" them.  Granted, Wily made them feel pretty bad about their lot, but they did ask to be fixed.

You also said that the writer wouldn't portray Rock as worrying as much as X if he was in a similar conflict.  However, I don't agree.  I don't think they'd really care that X has the suffering circuit or not.  They'd show anyone agonising .... if it fit the story they wanted to tell.

And it's such a BS sort of trait.  X has unlimited potential because he obsessively worries.  As opposed to Rock or King who only worries somewhat?  And he has no bias towards human superiority ... as opposed to Bass, who turned against his creator (several times)?  And what's the result of this?  X acting much like Rock does?

You can say that, even though Light gave X some moral guidelines, that he's not bound to them.  As opposed to what exactly?  All those times robots never betrayed Wily?  Because we do know that robots have betrayed Wily before.  We know that Blues grew to resent Light for leaving him unfinished. 

I suppose you can twist around the facts to support any argument.  MM Network once logic-ed out that robots has "programmed will" while X series robots had "free will".  And that the "programmed will" wasn't quite as free as it actually seemed to be because of several convoluted and hard to really follow ideas.  In the end it was an incorrect theory.  And then there was the growth idea I presented earlier.  Again, it uses some facts to prove it ... but it isn't right either.

The same goes for the suffering circuit, even if it's something created by Capcom.  It's something they SAY is true, but that doesn't really make it ... actually true.  You have to, basically, twist around ever crisis of consience that classic series robots have in order for it to really work. 

"The simplest explanation is always the best."   The simplesty explanation is that Capcom didn't put a whole lot of thought into what made X more advanced over the classic series robots when they came up with the idea for him and they've been scrambling ever since to come up with one that worked.  The "suffering circuit" is their official answer, but it takes a whole lot of twisting in order for it to really apply to the classic series.

[Hypershell]

Even in MM9, many would take Roll's view.  "It's sad, but the law is the law."  You're saying this is because of the limitations of robots.  That they would look at it deeply and rebel, However, it's somewhat of a flawed example.  Because the MM9 robots ask Wily to "fix" them.  Granted, Wily made them feel pretty bad about their lot, but they did ask to be fixed.

The law is written by humans, and Wily is a human.  The robots are in effect given two opposing human viewpoints, and left to choose for themselves which they will follow.  They have their own desire, to continue to be useful, to add to the mix, but they lack the ability to "invalidate" human decisions by coming up with an alternative of their own.  Thus, given two human options they choose the one which would best fulfill their own desires (or so they thought).  Wily, being Wily, took that opportunity to modify them so that they would follow his orders.

And he has no bias towards human superiority ... as opposed to Bass, who turned against his creator (several times)?

The individual =/= the race.  Bass accepts the superiority of humanity as a whole, as we see when he's questioned by King in MM&B.  He rebels against Wily as an individual, not against humanity.  Him rebelling against Wily is no different than Rock recognizing Wily's apologies as a load crock.  In both instances, they do so because of prior experience.  Bass has seen Wily resort to newer yet inferior robots in neglect of him (MMPB), going so far as to lie to and manipulate him (MM&B), and he's had enough.

X acting much like Rock does?

Having the same creator, and sharing the same namesake, this comes as no surprise.  X is a successor to Rock in more ways than just being the player's character, similarities in personality are to be expected.  But Rock is still limited by the idea that humans are paramount.  Yes, he feels for others, and yes he can make decisions on his own, but he devalues both himself and his fellow robots in a manner which X does not.

The same goes for the suffering circuit, even if it's something created by Capcom.  It's something they SAY is true, but that doesn't really make it ... actually true.  You have to, basically, twist around ever crisis of consience that classic series robots have in order for it to really work.

What you need to bear in mind is that the notions of the suffering circuit are in comparison to Reploids, not to Rock.  Also, while pity for one's enemies are seemingly shared more by Rock and less by early Reploids, it goes deeper than that.  X's worrying isn't the simple ability to have a heartache, it is he alone who compares robotic life to human life, and robotic judgment to human judgment, and he determines what is right and what is wrong for himself.  His compassion is an essential part of that, it grants him empathy with robots and humans alike, thus affording him (hopefully) the best possible judgment.  This is what makes X unique, and it's something that even most Reploids tend to fail at (as late as Craft in Zero4).

Rock has the ability to take pity on others.  Reploids have the ability to make their own decisions without prejudice towards humans.  X has both.

"The simplest explanation is always the best."   The simplesty explanation is that Capcom didn't put a whole lot of thought into what made X more advanced over the classic series robots when they came up with the idea for him and they've been scrambling ever since to come up with one that worked.  The "suffering circuit" is their official answer, but it takes a whole lot of twisting in order for it to really apply to the classic series.

"Humans and robots living together in harmony and equality, that was my ultimate wish."

That's all the explanation you need.  X is the guide towards such a future.  Rock is not, and for that matter neither are most Reploids.

[Flame]

Plus X can cry. dunno if Rock can.

[Gauntlet101010]

The law is written by humans, and Wily is a human.  The robots are in effect given two opposing human viewpoints, and left to choose for themselves which they will follow. 

The individual =/= the race.  Bass accepts the superiority of humanity as a whole, as we see when he's questioned by King in MM&B.  He rebels against Wily as an individual, not against humanity. 

So, basically, the robots are unable to distinguish between the laws human governments create .... and what one human is telling them is in their best interests?  As long as it comes from a human's mouth it's all fine?

BUT Bass knows the difference and, even if he's rebelling against ONE human it's not the same as rebelling against ALL of humanity.

King is actively rebelling against humanity, but he's just lying.  And Wily's other robots under no illusions are still helping ONE human so they aren't actually rebelling against humanity even if they are fighting to bring down the entire world.

So, neither is a case of robots rebelling against humanity, even when they do.  One's just rebelling against the greater humanity and the other's rebelling against a specific human, but neither case is showing a robot actually rebelling against humanity.  So, if it's the classic series, even if a robot's rebelling against a human, somehow it's not actually rebelling against a human because it's can't.  There has to be a way it's not rebelling against a human.

SO if Mega or Bass defies Wily it's just one human so it's not like they actually don't have bias.  And if one of Wily's own robots defies Wily it's acting in the greater interests of humanity so it's still under the human's thumb.  And, if Protoman defies Light he's not defying all of humanity; just acting in self-interest so it still doesn't count as a true choice, even though he is defying the one human

This is opposed to X who, if he ever rebelled against humanity, would ACTUALLY be able to rebel against humanity because he's totally neutral.  Even tho he never actually does rebel against humanity. 

As opposed to Mavericks who have a bias AGAINST humanity for any NUMBER of reasons presented within the X series.  They don't think as deeply and are, therefore, not as advanced.  And, even if they are philosophical, they just don't think on it enough.

they lack the ability to "invalidate" human decisions by coming up with an alternative of their own.

Lack the ability or ... just the will?  Because there's a HUGE difference of the thought not coming into their heads and just not having the heart to go through with it.  Obviously they were unhappy with being disgarded.  Wily didn't have to twist their arms to get them to disobey human laws in order to continue to exist.

I submit to you: Ballade who also disobeyed Wily.  Or is that just another case of disaobeying ONE human not counting?

Rock has the ability to take pity on others.  Reploids have the ability to make their own decisions without prejudice towards humans.  X has both.

Okay, we agree that Rock has the ability to take pity on others.

The second statement assumes that robots can't make their own decisions without "bias".  However, I don't think this is demonstratibly so.  I think the classic series shows several instances where robots disobey humans and act in their own interests.  You don't have to become a mass-murdering killing machine to rebel.  Protoman refused to let Light fix him and even resents him.  Dr. Wily's reprogramming lets robots act against humanity in general.  His war machines probably didn't require a shifting a views that PU's robots shows.  But even Wily's robots sometimes turn on him.    Even in your Bass example, King clearly thinks robots are superior to humans as a whole.  Unless he doesn't count either for some reason.

I maintain that Capcom's official answer is BS.

[Flame]

robots from the 20XX era have pre programmed will and emotions, and often cliched personalities... its especially the case with Robot masters, Rock was initially programmed to be a "little boy" but since Light has his own views on things, Rock also inherited Light's views on what is right and wrong, ans therefore, once he became Megaman, he gained a type of "righteous keeper of peace" personality, which was still a result of Lights views which were put into him.  While Reploids (and X,) really have no specific personality the moment they're made, aside form maybe a slight "inclination" to act a certain way, due to whatever they may be designed for. their personalities develop based on factors such as who they hang around, how their brains are wired, and outside influences. X himself, has that, plus the fact that he's neutral to either side. He just does what his "will" dictates is right, and he learns what is right from those he hangs around, plus his past experiences. although in his particular case, light has also implemented a sense fo his own views into X's AI. Although he still reasons what he should do over what he could do. I mean, Rock was pounded by fancy speech drivel before by Wily, which has made him hesitate, but X gets that FAR worse, as it seemingly happens to him almost always, due to the aforementioned factors.

[Gauntlet101010]

While Reploids (and X,) really have no specific personality the moment they're made, aside form maybe a slight "inclination" to act a certain way, due to whatever they may be designed for. their personalities develop based on factors such as who they hang around, how their brains are wired, and outside influences.

Has this been officially stated?  Because if it has then it doesn't stand up to the test of logic either.  This hasn't even been brought up befoire in the thread. 

in Power Battle of robots needing the ability to determine right and wrong by themselves is really the main difference between 20XX robots and X (and Reploids by extension). While 20XX robots can act much like humans, they can't choose whether to be good or bad; they're programmed that way. This is their limitation, straight from the games. It isn't a convoluted explanation.

@Rober Oaks - I didn't see your comment earlier.  Okay, the games say that robots don't determine right and wrong for themselves.  Again tho, as opposed to what?
Everyone, to some degree, is influenced in determining what is right and wrong.  Everyone.  Whether it's society telling you or your paretns or your peers.  Your lot in life also tells you what is right or wrong.  Your experiences growing up as well.  In the X series it would be the war raging all around them that tells what's right and wrong to reploids .... assuming we don't go the whole virus route in what makes them tick.  So, nobody determins what's right or wrong for themselves.  Not completely.  We're always influenced by someone or something.  No matter what, X can't ecape that he he lives in a certain time, in a certain place, with certain people, with a certain intelligence, and a buster on his arm.  In other words, X can't be free of a certain amount of natural influemce.

In the classic series, we see robots going against their creators.  Sometimes ... at the urging of other robots.  I mean, it's pretty difficult to say that Blues didn't determine what was right or wrong when he found out Wily wasn't the saint he seemed when he repaired him.  Nor does it really account for Ballade deciding to help MM in World 4.  In MM9 the robots decide they could still be of use and it'd be right to be "fixed".  You sometimes get a flat "I was made to ___ and that's exactly what I'll do" in the classic series, but many times you get a "you're right, Megaman, I now agree with you".

Even this simple explanation becomes convoluted because now you have to, somehow, say that the robots really weren't deciding for themselves, but only seemed to be.  It amounts to arguing that one's mind hasn't changed even though it has as opposed to just accepting that someone changed his mind.  That they didn't really decide what was right on their own, that (say) Wily had done it, even though the decion to betray Wily is not something Wily would want.

I submit that even this simple in-game answer is not consistant with the classic Megaman series.  That there are many examples of robots determining for themselves what is right and wrong and acting on their choices, in contrast to what their programmers had wanted. 

[Bag of Magic Food]

Have we yet considered whether the X series could be an alternate timeline to the original series, in which Dr. Right built X instead of Rock, and most of the other robots in the series never existed?

[Zan]

Even in MM9, many would take Roll's view.  "It's sad, but the law is the law."  You're saying this is because of the limitations of robots.  That they would look at it deeply and rebel, However, it's somewhat of a flawed example.  Because the MM9 robots ask Wily to "fix" them.  Granted, Wily made them feel pretty bad about their lot, but they did ask to be fixed.

That's a bit shortsighted... look a little lower in the script. Robots are alright with being scrapped because it's human law and are only alright with rebelling because they want to prove they're still useful to humans. Ariga's manga does the same, not just in 9, his entire megamix series follows the same general theme. The industrial robots ordered to be scrapped don't opt to go with Wily because they feel they're still useful to humans. Even Rock wishes to save them because they might still be of use to society. In 9, the sadness these industrial robots witness in their future adversaries' eyes is their own sadness of not being useful to humans anymore. They're Dr. Right robots, that's how they are.

The way Rockman9 presented it is akin to a human being told by the person they loved to just die, and happily going along with it. Only realizing by outside influence it's bad to die because they can still help the one they love, even if that person is the one ordering death. Where's the sense in that? Do you think any one human would do such a thing? Yet the entire world's robots were happily being scrapped and rebelling all for the humans' sake.

And it's such a BS sort of trait.  X has unlimited potential because he obsessively worries.  As opposed to Rock or King who only worries somewhat?  And he has no bias towards human superiority ... as opposed to Bass, who turned against his creator (several times)?  And what's the result of this?  X acting much like Rock does?

Let me ask you, can you accept that X himself worries on a much deeper level than any other Reploid? If you can, why is it so hard to see he's also worrying much deeper than any classic series robot? I really don't think there's any gray line between X and anybody else.

Now, if you compare classic robots to Reploids, that's where things get blurry. X's circuitry is on a completely different level than any classic robots, but Reploids use a lesser version it. But there's a point when degrading Reploids even further leads to mere Mechaniloids. Such is the unique limbo state of the Pantheons. Regular Reploids on the other hand have some degree of worrying, but not like X. In action, they appear to act similar to regular classic robots, but there's just a fundamental difference in how they work. Like comparing two completely different operating systems that just have the same visual appearance. One might work more effectively than the other, but you'd never know because you'd just be judging a book by its cover.

You can say that, even though Light gave X some moral guidelines, that he's not bound to them.  As opposed to what exactly?  All those times robots never betrayed Wily?  Because we do know that robots have betrayed Wily before.  We know that Blues grew to resent Light for leaving him unfinished.

Ballade who also disobeyed Wily.  Or is that just another case of disaobeying ONE human not counting?

King is actively rebelling against humanity, but he's just lying.  And Wily's other robots under no illusions are still helping ONE human so they aren't actually rebelling against humanity even if they are fighting to bring down the entire world.

You're misunderstanding if you think there's any absolute law that dictates they can't rebel against humans. It's just that in Right robots, views of right and wrong naturally favor humans, because Right does his programming keeping in mind those three little rules of robotics. Right also programs them to favor robots in some way, but not more than humans.

In Forte's example, his view is that because Wily is a human and humans created him, he has to accept that, even if Wily is a shitty example of a human to him. He can rebel against Wily to do as he pleases, but he still feels a certain obligation. He'll trash Wily's entire lab and then forgive the guy whilst showing his distate for him. That's just how Forte is.

The Ballade example... do you even know WHY Ballade did that? He doesn't even say anything....

Ballade is a reprogrammed robot, using a brain control signal which Rock managed to avoid affecting himself thanks to his Conscience Circuit. Reprogramming often changes views of right and wrong outright. Just look at Rockman Rockman where every single robot after reprogramming proclaims their lord Wily is being the one that's right and speaks of the evil Dr. Right and the evil Rockman. Ballade's programming could simply have reverted after the fight, the guy was near death, it's been done before. And even then, even if he was still reprogrammed, his personality is like Forte's, strongest robot. His goal as a Rockman Killer might be superseded by him seeing it as wrong for Rock to die in such a stupid way, so he helped Rock out to kill him later using his own power.

The King example... King is not programmed with views of right and wrong favoring humans, he's programmed to favor robots over humans. He steals other robots and reprograms them to this end. Dr. Wily is the only exception in his programming.

Other examples include Quickman. Quickman betrays Wily by saving Rockman. But he betrays Wily to save Wily, since Ra Moon is a danger to all humans including Wily.

Then there's Blues... Blues' right and wrong are how he's always been, but what they dictate is tough to see simply because Blues is a mystery in many ways. He does what he thinks is right, what he's been told is right. He's been programmed to be independent more than any other, he prides himself in that, but fears that going back to Right will cause him to be reprogrammed into something that isn't him. He uses the views Right gave him to choose his own path, the borderline between determining it on your own or not, he just never crosses the border into X's territory.

[Flame]

Have we yet considered whether the X series could be an alternate timeline to the original series, in which Dr. Right built X instead of Rock, and most of the other robots in the series never existed?

Explain Shadow devil, AND Shadow Devil's ability to turn into Wily Machine 6.

Explain Sigma's little death speech on how Zero is "The last of the doctors creations..." He cant be the last if he's the only one. it would be "hes the doctors only creation" or, "Hes the doctors creation"
outright leaving out any numerical status.  the fact that Wily built Zero to destroy X (or just to destroy everything, whatever, you get my point,) shows that Zero was his "ultimate" his final creation in his bid to best Light, whom he has constantly lost to because of Rockman.

That and the outright mentioning of Zero in Power Battle AND power Fighters. The second showing his blueprints. if the X series was an alternate timeline where the Wily wars never happened, and the only robot Light built was X, then it contradicts with Power Battle 7 Fighters. that plus he wouldnt be named Rockman, since Rockman would never have existed.  Just "X". Heck, he might even be named Protoman, as the prototype of a new breed of robot. that, and since there was no Rockman, there would be no need to distinguish him from another. also, X1's foot capsule says, "because I thought the world might need a new champion"

then X5 has Gaea and Falcon armor, which Light outright says are armors he made a long long time ago, and are also obviously  based off of 6's adaptors.

[Bag of Magic Food]

The easiest explanation is that they're all living in Paradigm City.

[Flame]

wut?

[Jericho]

The easiest explanation is that they're all living in Paradigm City.

In before "SHOOOOOWTIME!"

[Gauntlet101010]

Let me ask you, can you accept that X himself worries on a much deeper level than any other Reploid? If you can, why is it so hard to see he's also worrying much deeper than any classic series robot? I really don't think there's any gray line between X and anybody else.

Well, I'll agree as far that he seems obsessed with worrying.  That's the theme of the game and X fills the philosophical character archetype, so that makes him a worryer.  And, as "player 1" we get a good look inside his head.  Moreso than most other characetrs.

But "on a deeper level"?  Wellllll .... no.  No i don't.  Maybe it's because I lack direct access to the almighty and all-telling sourcebooks, but I haven't really seen anything that shows that X actually does worry on a deeper level that can't be explained by someone just being a different person than he is.  Especially if I take the very first "Maverick" idea we're presented with.  Of course that was before the virus stuff was introduced.

I mean, it seems to me that if Wily can make the MM9 robots up and say "geez, the humans are wrong ... we CAN still be usefull" and MM to say "geez, I guess I don't really reason with robots, I am no better than Wily's being" then, even though Capcom says X thinks on a deeper level, I don't think that nessasarily holds up.  I can't talk too much of the X series, my intrest / knowledge is spotty, but I do recall Alia having some mixed feelings about Gate.  Not that she turned rogue, but she had mixed feelings.

Robots are alright with being scrapped because it's human law and are only alright with rebelling because they want to prove they're still useful to humans.

Yeah, but he very act of saying "no" to being scrapped ... for whatever reason ... shows that they are capable of saying "no" to the law. 

I mean, I don't disagree that classic series robots are obsessed with being useful.  But, I don't think just taking away that obsession would make X so much deeper.  That obsession aside, there's nothing that distinguishes them from a normal person's level of thought.  And it's not like it's even that uncommon in people for someone to think they're inferior to someone else, or to think one's self doesn't matter as much as the whole.   Through abuse people can even think they're inferior and are allowed to walk freely, but they're still psychologically caged.  And that's for people.

So, even though obsessed, no ... I don't quite think X thinks more deeply.  I don't see this lack of obsession as something that makes X particularily special in terms of how he thinks.  Because a robot can be made to see outside of the box and say "no".  Even if it's a "no" because he feels he can be useful, that's still a "no". 

Perhapse X is the only robot to see humans as an eaqual.  I'm not certain I agree with that, but maybe, for the sake of argument.  However, in all other ways, the thinking and reasoning capabilities are the same.  The capacity for decisions and feeling is the same.  Basically, all X lacks is this obsession.  Light just left that out.  This makes X freeer to act, however I don't think it's all that special.  I don't think it makes all that different from any other classic series robot.

Of course you got robots characterised as "lazy" and King who thinks he's superior to humans, so I dunno how far this argument of being useful and being subserviant to humans is all that correct. 

You're misunderstanding if you think there's any absolute law that dictates they can't rebel against humans. It's just that in Right robots, views of right and wrong naturally favor humans, because Right does his programming keeping in mind those three little rules of robotics. Right also programs them to favor robots in some way, but not more than humans.

In Forte's example, his view is that because Wily is a human and humans created him, he has to accept that, even if Wily is a shitty example of a human to him. He can rebel against Wily to do as he pleases, but he still feels a certain obligation. He'll trash Wily's entire lab and then forgive the guy whilst showing his distate for him. That's just how Forte is.

See, this is something I really do have a problem accepting through sheer common sence.  It's fallacy to make soemthing that has the potential to disobey you and to give it the capability of great destrouction.  You don't make a tank and then give it the ability to say "not now" or "I think I'll blow up some other tanks because I feel like it, but I'm still gonna be with you guys when it counts."   Now I can accept that making robots believe humans are superior is a means of control, however, I don't really accept that TPTB in the classic series creates armed robots while still including the capacity to say "no."  Especially witht he X1 intro; what started these debates.   "X" IS THE FIRST OF A NEW GENERATION OF ROBOTS WHICH CONTAIN AN INNOVATIVE NEW FEATURE - THE ABILITY TO THINK, FEEL AND MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS."  This statement is total BS.  Now X's ability to worry without thinking humans or robots are superior is considered to be what is different, but this is a retcon.  The first reason they gave us it definately BS. 

See, Bass just feeling an obligation to Wily isn't quite enough for me to accept that he sees humanity as a whole as superior.  Even his line of "but humans made us" doesn't really say superior.  It could say "superior", but it could also say "eaqual".  He never treats Wily as his superior.  And doesn't try to be useful to mankind.  Okay, he displays obligation to Wily.  But obligation and superiority are two different things. 

Blues

Just saying he's mysterious isn't enough.  My argument is that, although Capcom has said one thing, it is not demonstrated to be true.  And Proto's sence of self-determination is a mighty big nut to crack.  Now, even though he hasn't crossed into X terretory, that, I would say, is because there's no vast war going on and not because of a limit on his ability to reason.

[Bag of Magic Food]

Explain Sigma's little death speech on how Zero is "The last of the doctors creations..." He cant be the last if he's the only one.

Sure he can.  But if you can't accept that, then the doctor's next-to-last creation was a nice lentil stew recipe.  Yup.

That and the outright mentioning of Zero in Power Battle AND power Fighters.

It's simple.  In the Classic Timeline, Zero was built to fight Rockman.  In the X Timeline, Zero was built to fight Xman.

also, X1's foot capsule says, "because I thought the world might need a new champion"

Because the world was sick of the champions Wheaties was giving us.

Explain Shadow devil, AND Shadow Devil's ability to turn into Wily Machine 6.

'Twas the premiere of both!

then X5 has Gaea and Falcon armor, which Light outright says are armors he made a long long time ago, and are also obviously  based off of 6's adaptors.

No they're not, not in this timeline!

[Flame]

Bass knos that Without Wily, thered be no one to repair and maintain himself and Treble. He'd Never side with Rock, much less live with him and Light, because of pure pride, plus hes programmed to KILL him. To Hate him. he would only side with Rock if dire necessity of a team up arose. but not forever. that plus if Wily was out of the picture, the Government would probably scrap him regardless of anything Rock and Light could say. Wily is his lifeline, and its the ONLY reason he obeys hm to that certain extent, only rebelling when he feels he has justification to do so.

[Bag of Magic Food]

"X" IS THE FIRST OF A NEW GENERATION OF ROBOTS WHICH CONTAIN AN INNOVATIVE NEW FEATURE - THE ABILITY TO THINK, FEEL AND MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS."  This statement is total BS.

So Dr. Right lied.  But why exactly?  Was he trying to skirt some new law about how robots could be programmed to think?

[Flame]

Sure he can.  But if you can't accept that, then the doctor's next-to-last creation was a nice lentil stew recipe.  Yup.
It's simple.  In the Classic Timeline, Zero was built to fight Rockman.  In the X Timeline, Zero was built to fight Xman.
Because the world was sick of the champions Wheaties was giving us.
'Twas the premiere of both!
No they're not, not in this timeline!

Im being serious here. the alternate timeline crap has been thought about before. but it would make no sense to the pre- events of the story.

Posted on: December 13, 2008, 10:00:18 PM

So Dr. Right lied.  But why exactly?

cuz hes a doosh?

[Bag of Magic Food]

the alternate timeline crap has been thought about before.

Well I wanna discuss it NOW!

[Flame]

Zan, Take over would you? Ive run out of Megaman logic...

[Tickle Buffalo]

QUITTERS NEVER WIN

[Bag of Magic Food]

DRUGGERS DON'T DO WINS