Topic: Musings - What Makes X Different From Rockman?

[Pyro]

It's something that's been on my mind lately; I know that X was designed to "think for himself" and "make his own decisions" from the instruction manual from Rockman X, essentially giving him free will. But from I remember from the original Rockman series, doesn't Rockman have it as well? After giving it some though I theorize that when Dr. Light created the original eight (Rock, Roll, the first six Robot Masters) with a specific purpose in mind with Rock designed to be an assistant (hence the tool using ability), Roll for housekeeping, and so forth. While Light gave them distinct personalities. they were all bound to the three laws of robotics, and thus were "assigned" their function in society/the workplace although one can argue Rock had free will since he volunteered to because a combat-ready robot.

While Rock's "free will" might be an accident, I think Dr. Light designed X specifically to have self-determinate so he can find his own function in society and thus is not bound by the three laws. Given the complexity of X's mind, Dr. Light had perform a "debug" on X's program and make sure there were no irregularities which took an exceedingly long time (forty years, if I recall correctly). So when Dr. Cain copied X's schematics he probably didn't account for any potential irregularities, hence why we have Irregulars/Mavericks.

Does anyone have anything else to add? Any criticisms/nitpicks?

[Acid]

I thought X was capable of the defying the rules of Asimov, being more than a robot.

(Well that and more advanced technology, which greatly improved his skills and power.)

[Saber]

While Rockman had free will of sorts, he was still bonded to the three rules of Asimov (though I think that was never stated, was it now?), hence he served humans and did "just" things. The difference here is that X is capable of deciding what "just" is for himself, or rather, he can do whatever he wants to as he can choose entirely by himself. Be the savior he eventually became or a tyrannic ruler like Sigma. However, this point is up to discussion, as X1 states Right stealed him away in order to test the maturity of his circuits so something like that wouldn't happen, whereas IHX states the world isn't ready for someone like X yet.

The other major difference is that Rock only had basic emotions, while X has the entire range and he's greatly affected by the ongoing war between Repliroids and humans. I don't recall that Rock ever had such suffering, he was more like "Oh, Dr. Wily is doing something evil again, when will he ever stop? I must stop his evil doings oncemore!" while the war pretty much tore X' heart out all the time.

[Protoman Blues]

But didn't Rock volunteer to become Mega Man because of his Strong Sense of Justice?  I remember we had this discussion back before the crash, and I always found it interesting.  To me, there is very little difference between X and Rock.

[Gaia]

But didn't Rock volunteer to become Mega Man because of his Strong Sense of Justice?  I remember we had this discussion back before the crash, and I always found it interesting.  To me, there is very little difference between X and Rock.

It's all in the programming. I found "Emerl", a Sonic Battle character, to be more similar to Rock than to X. Rock was built to be a copy robot, copying other's own abilities, however, he had to develop his personality while staying in the law, meaning he was a battle robot from the start. so, a "link" was established between creator and machine, he had to "teach" Rock manually, before showing him to the world science fair, before Wily went mad. Whereas, a "link" was established to keep Rock under control, until to the breaking point where Rock may one day go berserk, due to all the data, causing an overload. however, "Free Will" was entirely by accident on Rock's side, as some claim. However, he was programmed with a "Free Willed" personality.

As for X, he was unique, because he was sealed off before he can be completed, thus ignoring the laws of robotics, but due to his days as a Maverick hunter, he learned justice, suffering, loss, and pain, things Rock cannot learn. Like in that period, X lost Zero due to his sacrifice, triggering X's true potential. however, as some may say, X is unique in his own way.

[Protoman Blues]

It's all in the programming. I found "Emerl", a Sonic Battle character, to be more similar to Rock than to X. Rock was built to be a copy robot, copying other's own abilities, however, he had to develop his personality while staying in the law, meaning he was a battle robot from the start. so, a "link" was established between creator and machine, he had to "teach" Rock manually, before showing him to the world science fair, before Wily went mad. Whereas, a "link" was established to keep Rock under control, until to the breaking point where Rock may one day go berserk, due to all the data, causing an overload. however, "Free Will" was entirely by accident on Rock's side, as some claim. However, he was programmed with a "Free Willed" personality.

Um, what?

I may not be an expert like Zan, Saber, MM, Hypershell, and whomever I'm forgetting, but I believe Rock was a Lab Assistant.  His "Copy Ability" was to assist Dr. Light for tools and such.  After Dr. Wily stole the 6 robots, Rock volunteered to be transformed into a Super Fighting Robot, and thus Mega Man was born.

I believe Blues was the first battle robot from the start.

[Hypershell]

Despite X1's reference to the first rule of robotics, I don't recall any reference as to how/if they are applied to robots before X, or if it's even the same set.  Unless someone can provide a source, details to that point (all this "hard coded" stuff) are fanon.  And somewhat shaky when you look at Bass.

In discussing the difference between X and prior Light-bots, I think it's important to remember that what something is capable of doing and what it was designed to do are not the same thing.  Pre-X robots were, always, designed to work under the guidance of a human, and their personalities written accordingly.  Occasionally their personality may conflict with their purpose, as was the case with Protoman and Bass, but these are aberrations, not the norm.  Rock is no exception as he works under Light (and a reformed Wily in the Quint future).  Conceivably they might be able to cope with such guidance being taken away, but that's beside the point.  X was the first to be designed to function and grow independently, so that robots would stand with humans as equals rather than subordinates.

I don't recall that Rock ever had such suffering

See Power Fighters.  Although the fact that Rock is led astray so easily may give points to the "guidance" shpiel, he takes a well-established enemy human's words over his own conviction.  While X faces similar issues he is usually not that gullible.  He hesitates with a new face but has the ability to recognize and ignore a recurring psychopath such as Sigma.

(forty years, if I recall correctly)

30.  Although I don't think even that is a guarantee, it just gets X off on the right foot (could have also been testing resistances to invasive programs; hence X's viral immunity).  Not only could any free-willed entity, whether copied from X or not, turn sour, but anything with the potential to "grow" could eventually grow in the wrong direction.  That includes X.  Throughout X's battles he continuously faces trials regarding the value of robotic life versus human life, and generally he seeks a balance between the two.  While Sigma takes the extreme of robots, we also saw through Copy X how things get ugly should one go the opposite way.

[Gaia]

Um, what?

I may not be an expert like Zan, Saber, MM, Hypershell, and whomever I'm forgetting, but I believe Rock was a Lab Assistant.  His "Copy Ability" was to assist Dr. Light for tools and such.  After Dr. Wily stole the 6 robots, Rock volunteered to be transformed into a Super Fighting Robot, and thus Mega Man was born.

I believe Blues was the first battle robot from the start.

Maybe, but Blues was a mere prototype brother of Rock, thus dissapearing after his creation. And a correction, Rock was indeed the "first" perfected AI after Blues dissapeared.  I was also hinting that there may be a few "MM" relaited references within Sonic Battle as well. in short, X was built sometime after Rock defeated Wily "For Good". Rock's strong sense of Justice brought forth the new hero, because he was indeed worried about his 6 other "brothers." (Elec Man, Cut Man, Guts Man, Bomb Man, Ice Man, Fire Man)

And notice, he may have the frequency to contact another realm in Star Force, may be an event, but his frequencies may be something.

[Pyro]

Despite X1's reference to the first rule of robotics, I don't recall any reference as to how/if they are applied to robots before X.  Unless someone can provide a source, details to that point (all this "hard coded" stuff) are fanon.  And somewhat shaky when you look at Bass.

It's just a general assumption on my part, it seems reasonable to install the three laws into any robot if you're a benevolent roboticist like Dr. Light or Dr. Cossack. Although if you're a megalomaniac like Dr. Wily, they are more of a hindrance and thus are eliminated or altered in the reprogramming.

Again, I assume Forte was programmed to be more independent than the robot masters. It would make sense if Wily wanted Rockman to believe Forte was an ally.

[HyperSonicEXE]

Eh, I can only throw in 2 comments at this point:

1) It's true; we can only assume Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics are present due to the similar, strong wording of Dr. Light's warning in the intro to X1. Until otherwise stated, the Rockman series might have some derivative of Asimov's Laws (____'s Three Laws of Robotics, Asimov's One Law of Robotics, etc.)

2) I'd like to know what "irregularities" the 30 year diagnostics scan encompasses. Is Dr. Light preventing X from becoming evil? Because if so, that is NOT free will. Probably not, though, because his warning does seem to indicate that could happen (force that could not be stopped, fallen into wrong hands, etc.)

[Acid]

I thought his warning was that "If X decides to be evil, then he will be evil. And he can decide that on his own, any time."

[The Great Gonzo]

[rant] Asimov's Three Laws only apply to his own works and works derived/based on them; Megaman is not based on Asimov's works [end rant] Sorry, I'm just tired of people shoehorning the Three Laws into places where they don't belong--not that you are, but I don't remember any talk of the Three Laws in the series.

My only other input is, if Megaman lacked the free will and emotions that X has, he would be incapable of giving two shits about Roll during Super Adventure Rockman. (I also maintain that robots have free will so that when something inevitably goes wrong, on the job or otherwise, they can improvise and try to work around it/fix it/get away, without waiting for input that may never come--but that's just me.)

[Gauntlet101010]

The place where Asimov's rules come into play was in MM7 where Wily says that a robot cannot harm a human.  Of course Megaman then tells Wily's he's more than a robot.

Really, the origional series robots do have free will.  But, the opinion I was led to believe by people much more knowledgable than myself, if that X's robots can change, basically.

No matter how many years pass MM is going to be the steriotypical energetic good Japanese kid that Light programmed him to be.  X. however, can change as time goes on.  He can become a pacifist and choose not to fight.  Or the robots can grow to be nasty and rebel.  The origional series robots don't change in their personality.  King is supposed to be noble, so even if his allegences change his nobility doesn't.  Bass is an ass, so even if he's an ass to Wily or to Rock, he's still an ass.

Of course all that's really just an over convoluted explanation in order to cover up Capcom's mistake.

The real confusion comes from the the fact that the origional series is just a different tone and mood than the X series. The origional is a happy-go-lucky cartoon while the X series is moody and kinds dark-ish.  The "X is the first robot with the ability to think and make decisions" line is a clear point where the tone of the origional series just does not mesh very well with the tone of the classic series.  The classic series is presenting robots in one way while the X series is just saying something completely different.

If you look at it, MMX was made around the time of MM5.  And who'se to argue that it didn't fit in with the timeline up to MM5?  But the classic series became more developed and the writers just weren't overly concerned with this one continuity flub.  It's just something you kinda have to take their word on and go with.

[Bag of Magic Food]

The place where Asimov's rules come into play was in MM7 where Wily says that a robot cannot harm a human.  Of course Megaman then tells Wily's he's more than a robot.

"Robots can't lie.  He must be telling the truth!"  Nowadays I take this situation to mean that Dr. Wily simply doesn't understand artificial intelligence very well and makes erroneous assumptions.

[Gauntlet101010]

It's just where people connect Asimov's rules to the classic series. 

[Zan]

Asimov

Asimov's "laws" have no bearing to Rockman's "rules" of Robotics. Whilst they might be the same in terms of context, they're not in application. They only exists as guidelines for the creator to follow during the creation of a robot, they're not placed in the minds of robots as explicit laws that will be immediately punished when broken, rather, the robots are made to operate within their scope by giving them proper personalities, a proper conscience and knowledge of what is bad. No robot will suddenly stop working because they've broken any of these rules, what they're programmed to do is undergo the same feelings of guilt as a human would and generally avoid situation like these because they wholeheartedly believe they're "wrong."

What Dr. Right is simply saying is that he shouldn't make a homicidal, defiant and suicidal robot. But, as he says, he can't guarantee it much in X compared to all his previous work. Specifically because a certain advancement in X is an untested quantum leap in robotics.

“X” presents many problems inconceivable in existing robots. There is a danger he may worry over or question even the absolute requirement for robots, “Do not harm a human.”

The act of worrying in “X” marks a new epoch in robotics and is the first time this experiment has succeeded, but if it extends to matters that by their nature must not be questioned, it would be disastrous. In the worst case, if a robot were to harm humans deliberately, humankind would tremble with fear the like of which was unknown even in the days of the “Dr. Wily” incidents…

I conclude that “X” is an extremely dangerous being. If I am to send “X” out into the world, he must have a verification period of 30 years at the least. However, I do not have that long to live, and regrettably there is no one who understands all my research to carry it on for me.

Therefore I seal “X” here. If by some chance there is someone who discovers this capsule, as long as “X’s” thinking has not been fully analyzed, please leave him untouched. “X” is a robot laden with both unlimited possibility and unlimited danger…

Sep. 18 AD20XX
T. Right

--------------


A repliroid which possesses a circuit of mental suffering,
in regards to a society where humans and repliroids coexist,
so as to be biased towards neither side,
it is fated always to worry continuously as to which side it should stand upon.


--------------

Like humans, the robot has to determine what is
right and what is wrong by itself. Robots are not supposed
to hurt humans. We need to research more on the A.I.
program.

This isn't about Rock not having free will, or X having a greater range of emotions. It's all about bias. About humanity priding themselves in their human superiority as creators and robots by their nature unable to deny that. The robots of old are unable because they've been programmed by the humans to know about what is bad and they're programmed to listen to what they believe is the right thing.

X is different in that he constantly worries about all sides, he tries to be unbiased in all situations and he suffers because of that. Whether a crime is committed by human or repliroid, or against human and repliroid, it makes no difference to X. He weighs all equally regardless of bias such as that. Just because he's created by humans or because he himself is a robot does not give any side unjust bias in the situation at hand.

That's exactly where the issue lies.

X is a hero, the world's hope. But his ability to determine, right and wrong for himself is what could make humans fear him and robots such as him. The world of Dr. Right's time was not ready, so X was sealed away till the world was. 30 years of testing thrown in to attempt to tell the future that X was not a liability.

Blues, malfunction

Blues was the first robot with "independant thought and reasoning." Rock and the others are second, third, etc. Blues never was malfunctioning in his brain, just his power system. It's simply that Blues' personality is to be who he is, an independent person. His life experiences, activated prototype with a power malfunction, were what led to him running away.

With Rock and the others, displays of free will aren't about them being more than a robot. They're not unique or malfunctioning, they're just acting how they're designed to be.

In terms of guidance, they really don't need it. But like with humans, it helps to have friends stand by you when you can't figure out something yourself. For instance, it helps to avoid tunnel vision and can hasten decision making.

growth

It isn't that classic robots can't develop in terms of personality, it's just that they grow within certain boundaries. Those boundaries being their views of right and wrong. X simply has to deal with additional growth in terms of his views on right and wrong.

MM7

You're better of looking at Rockman7's script. Whilst robots can not harm a human, Rockman is not more than a robot. Rock hesitates to pull the trigger because he's overcome by deep thought and feelings of guilt.

Wily: Rockman, I'm sorry. I won't do it again, forgive me!
Rockman: You can't trick me again, Dr. Wily!
Wily: An attack? You attack me? *Me!* You're a robot; I'm a human!
Rockman: ……

Not much different from what Dr. Vile threw Zero's way. If he had said the same to X, instead of Zero, it probably would have worked. Zero doesn't give it too much thought and tells Vile he is simply an enemy he needs to destroy, whereas X would ponder on it. Things like Rock's strong sense of justice imposed by his Conscience Circuit (Ryoushin Kairo) and X's intense worrying caused his circuit of mental suffering (Kunou Kairo) lead to hesitation. In that regard, X is no different from Rock. X will figure out his conclusion without falling into human bias, though.

[Hypershell]

Blues was the first robot with "independant thought and reasoning." Rock and the others are second, third, etc. Blues never was malfunctioning in his brain, just his power system. It's simply that Blues' personality is to be who he is, an independent person. His life experiences, activated prototype with a power malfunction, were what led to him running away.

With Rock and the others, displays of free will aren't about them being more than a robot. They're not unique or malfunctioning, they're just acting how they're designed to be.

In terms of guidance, they really don't need it. But like with humans, it helps to have friends stand by you when you can't figure out something yourself. For instance, it helps to avoid tunnel vision and can hasten decision making.

I can only guess at how much of this is directed at me.  I may have badly worded one of the latter bits in my last post, but "guidance" was intended as a standard procedure, not an operational requirement.  In other words, human superiority, as you outlined.  Certainly pre-X robots are capable of thinking for themselves, but they generally do not regard themselves as equals, nor were they ever intended to.  They do not question human superiority.  The vast majority, going hand in hand with this, work under a human.  While Bass and Protoman tend to be more independent, we saw in MM&B that even Bass holds to human superiority, he merely has the ability to recognize a lousy individual among them. 

As for Protoman, an aberration is not the same thing as a malfunction (I meant that in the "usual" sense, not the "right" sense).  With any program of great enough complexity to mimick a human personality, it is only to be expected that their normal operation may include unforseen results.  This is as applicable to Protoman taking off as it is to Rock, a lab assistant, having the drive to fight evil.  Should a robot's brain actually malfunction, it's unlikely they would maintain their sanity.

[Bag of Magic Food]

So X's hidden power is the ability to worry.  That's nice to know.  If you're ever threatened by X, just bring up something for him to worry about, and then maybe you can sneak away.

[VixyNyan]

Axl: "So, where's The Day of Sigma been lately? I haven't seen it AROUND..."

[Thanatos-Zero]

Wily: Rockman, I'm sorry. I won't do it again, forgive me!
Rockman: You can't trick me again, Dr. Wily!
Wily: An attack? You attack me? *Me!* You're a robot; I'm a human!
Rockman: ……

Not much different from what Dr. Vile threw Zero's way. If he had said the same to X, instead of Zero, it probably would have worked. Zero doesn't give it too much thought and tells Vile he is simply an enemy he needs to destroy, whereas X would ponder on it. Things like Rock's strong sense of justice imposed by his Conscience Circuit (Ryoushin Kairo) and X's intense worrying caused his circuit of mental suffering (Kunou Kairo) lead to hesitation. In that regard, X is no different from Rock. X will figure out his conclusion without falling into human bias, though.

I could have been the case, but as we can see in the ending of Rockman Zero 3, X calls Dr.Vile a threat. Also take in account that X do not worry anymore about the motives of his enemies, according to the ending of Rockman Zero 1. He will still hestate but only for a glimpse of time. X knows what is important.
One thing you shouldn´t forget Zan. X favours neither humans or reploids, all what could bring him to hestiate are laws by the human society. In the case of Dr.Vile, X would not have to fear to be punished by humans, is more the case that they would call him again a saviour.

[Flame]

well, Megaman also considers Wily a threat. and he's fought him before. many times. and didnt he almost shoot him in 7? or was that just a North american thing?

[Thanatos-Zero]

Rockman´s problem is that he cannot worry constantly like how X does. Rock starts to worry, when someone tolds him, that he is going to do something awful.

[Gauntlet101010]

So X's hidden power is the ability to worry.  That's nice to know.  If you're ever threatened by X, just bring up something for him to worry about, and then maybe you can sneak away.

Rock would do that too ... see the ending to Power Battles!

Rockman´s problem is that he cannot worry constantly like how X does. Rock starts to worry, when someone tolds him, that he is going to do something awful.

You know, I forgot about the "suffering circuit" mumbo jumbo.  X's grand ability to worry. So much for the growth idea, I guess.  Musta been before the "suffering circuit"

I kinda wonder exactly how true this is and whether it actually does hold true throughout the series, though.  Certainly, not all X series robots worry about all of everyone eaqually.  And, while Rock has not been shown to worry constantly, he's not in a "race war" between robots and humans.  I dunno if they would stick by the idea that only X obsessively worries if it was a darker classic series tale.  I tend to doubt it.  Of course we're never gonna get an official darker classic series tale, so it'll never be truly known.

[Hypershell]

he's not in a "race war" between robots and humans.

He was briefly, or at least he thought he was (turned out to be Wily's shenanigans again, of course).  See MM&B.

[Gauntlet101010]

He was briefly, or at least he thought he was (turned out to be Wily's shenanigans again, of course).  See MM&B.

That's nowhere near the scope of the X series.