MEGAMAN UNIVERSE!!!!!! (PS3/360)

[The Great Gonzo]

What, you can't note the inconsistencies? I mean, NAdM is a trainwreck, but it's still considered its own continuity.

[Hypershell]

Inconsistencies by their very nature damage continuity, but they can easily, and have already in MegaMan/Rockman games, occur for reasons completely irrelevant to localization.  So I'm not really sure where you're going with that.  The ability to note inconsistencies is necessary to either viewpoint.

[Saber]

Ah, good to know. Makes me wonder if the change stuck.

No. Zero was correctly identified as male in all following titles.

[Bueno Excelente]

No. Zero was correctly identified as male in all following titles.

...and as female in all following fanart.

[Acid]

Zero being female would certainly make the whole Zero/Iris thing more interesting.

[Saber]

...and as female in all following fanart.

There was no such thing over here that I am aware of. In any case, the only place where that happened was in the manual that was apparently very sloppily translated. The game itself remained untranslated in English. I believe the only Rockman X games that actually had German texts in-game were Command Mission (since it's an RPG), Irregular Hunter X and X8.

Also, Hypershell, using the world "continuity" for this was rather farfetched, for what the German X1 manual said I mean.

Zero being female would certainly make the whole Zero/Iris thing more interesting.

You may want to read Kieran's The Other Side then. Features a female, bisexual Zero.

[Bueno Excelente]

There was no such thing over here that I am aware of.

I was making a joke as to people saying Zero looks like a girl, and making him such in quite a bit of fanart.

[The Great Gonzo]

As Gauntlet pointed out, the US continuity is presented as a single whole. Inconsistencies happen, and just because it's poorly thought out doesn't refute anything.

I don't think it's good debate form to ask to just drop something, but it feels like we're just going in circles...

@Saber, about the manuals vs. the in-game text: Aaaagh. X_X

[Hypershell]

Manuals vs. in-game text, as I established *AGES* ago, is perfectly observable in U.S. localizations.

Manuals gave us the Force Armor, multiple centuries of war within 21XX, desk jobs constituting a "mysterious disappearance", and the notion that one of the newbies in XCM is a female impersonator, while another is two people (two PLAYABLE people; Redips doesn't count).

I was making a joke as to people saying Zero looks like a girl, and making him such in quite a bit of fanart.

Hell, the official manga makes Zero look like a girl.  Iwamoto's obsession with removing Zero's helmet doesn't help any.

Zero being female would certainly make the whole Zero/Iris thing more interesting.

A couple of fancomics have already tackled that one.  Reploid Hunter Iris comes to mind as at least Iris thinking that.

[The Great Gonzo]

and the notion that one of the two girls in XCM is in fact an impersonator.

Wait what?

[Hypershell]

XCM's box reads "5 new playable characters, including a mysterious female Reploid."

That accounts for Massimo, Spider, and one of the girls.  Meaning one of the other girls is a man and that there is another invisible party member who does absolutely nothing.

[Bueno Excelente]

So basically, Zero's the first Raiden. (Birdo and Poison don't count)

[The Great Gonzo]

Ah.

...now I have the mental image of cross-dressing-boy!Cinnamon. :/  

[Hypershell]

I'd say that Cinnamon's appearance makes her the more likely, but Chameleon Chips being what they are, you can never be too sure.

Either way, Axl's set up to be traumatized.  He thinks that Marino is checking him out, and Cinnamon's the only girl his own age.

[The Great Gonzo]

Alternatively...

*Axl turns into Alia* "Problem solved!"

(Not really, since he hasn't really switched orientations as well, but he could try)

[VixyNyan]

*Axl turns into Alia* "Problem solved!"

Mega Man: Home Movie

[Zan]

I hate to sound rude, but...What part of "not everything can overlap without conflict" did you not get? If no changes were made, then I could agree that they're both the same continuity. But that's not the case.

From the very beginning, we've said that the "US-continuity" is inconsistent with itself. You argued: Inconsistencies do not make it any less of a continuity. But at the same time you say that the US-exclusive info being inconsistent with the Japanese-exclusive info demands two continuities.

I think your stance is what's inconsistent here; if inconsistencies do not destroy continuity, then all is one continuity regardless of inconsistencies.

You note the changes. Compare the two continuities, note what's different, and move on.

In the view that there is but one continuity, what is noted are the inconsistencies. Inconsistencies do not require the creating of a continuity of its own.

According to continuity, Zero is male. Zero being female is an inconsistency written in the MegaManX1 manual published in Germany. According to continuity, Sigma is the supreme masterpiece of Dr. Cain. Sigma being the supreme masterpiece of Dr. Smith is in inconsistency written in the Capcom Sound Series Rockman X1 booklet. The Capcom Sound Series RockmanX1 booklet does not warrant a new continuity in which Sigma is the supreme masterpiece of Dr. Smith.

By that logic, no one would be allowed to talk about Sonia Belmont just because IGA struck her from the timeline.

1) Just because IGA did not mention it, does not necessarily mean it does not exist; absence of mention is not evidence of removal from continuity.
2) If stricken from the "IGA continuity" it simply means her games' story does not connect with the story of those other titles. We can strictly talk of the story of her games without trying to apply unrelated concepts from IGA's continuity to it.

Pointing a gun at an unarmed human begging forgiveness is exceedingly difficult to excuse.

Rock points the 'gun', regardless. The difference is in what he says while doing so. Or rather, in him saying anything at all: "..."

Second, an existing character later stricken from the timeline may be discussed as a valid "what if" scenario.  By taking such an extremes you rule out the validity of discussing Awakened Zero.

This is why I don't really agree with the label of "continuity" to replace "canon"; timelines aren't necessarily linear, especially not when player input exists. Just because an event does not happen according to the linear timeline a sequel established, does not mean that the event is not canon. Awakened Zero is one such example, but also VAVA mode, any of the alternate modes seen in Powered Up, and yes, even X4 within itself. Further exemplified by ZX's "choose your own gender" aspect. Maybe Gonzo wants to talk about an "Aile continuity" and "Vent continuity" but I think it has little value; it's all canon, and the true continuity leading to the far flung future of Rockman DASH favors neither.

You know, if someone were to take the time and thought that Hyper, Zan's and whoever has the urge to debate Megaman timelines in an off topic conversation like serious business and convert that into a an operation that's constructive, we could have cured cancer three times over by now.

It worries me that you do not seem to believe that people that work in scientific fields put MUCH MUCH MUCH more thought and effort into EVERYTHING they work on.

The "U.S. continuity", as I see it, consists of proper noun changes, and Roll Caskett being able to speak and choosing her favorite video game character prior to age 1.  That's pretty much it.

Considering CoA can't keep their own names straight, I'm not even granting them that much. The only thing that means that canonically, IF you go with the translated name, you have to go with the altered name origin; because it is not the same name. Which name you go by does not make a new continuity. It merely changes a few facts here and there.

the notion that one of the newbies in XCM is a female impersonator

Rather; only one of the females is mysterious, the other characters have unspecified gender. Alternatively, Marino got her hands on that copy chip and 'transformed'.

(two PLAYABLE people; Redips doesn't count).

X's new armor? Or playing as Nana when controlling those Mechaniroids.

[The Great Gonzo]

From the very beginning, we've said that the "US-continuity" is inconsistent with itself. You argued: Inconsistencies do not make it any less of a continuity. But at the same time you say that the US-exclusive info being inconsistent with the Japanese-exclusive info demands two continuities.

I think your stance is what's inconsistent here; if inconsistencies do not destroy continuity, then all is one continuity regardless of inconsistencies.

My argument was, just because US continuity is an internal mess doesn't mean it can't stand on its own, separate from the JP continuity.

In the view that there is but one continuity, what is noted are the inconsistencies. Inconsistencies do not require the creating of a continuity of its own.

A few, maybe it could be left alone. A lot, like the case is with Classic MM, and trying to say that both regional versions are wholly the same doesn't really work.

This is why I don't really agree with the label of "continuity" to replace "canon"

It doesn't. Canon encompasses continuity; it's not replaced by it.

Maybe Gonzo wants to talk about an "Aile continuity" and "Vent continuity"

Those are timeline splits. >.> And no, I don't. I've about had enough of this conversation.

[Zan]

My argument was, just because US continuity is an internal mess doesn't mean it can't stand on its own, separate from the JP continuity.

But if that can stand on its own, the combined mess of what the Japanese, Americans, Germans and who else wrote, can also stand together as a single continuity with many inconsistencies. Either way, you're noting inconsistencies, favoring one interpretation, and moving on.

A few, maybe it could be left alone. A lot, like the case is with Classic MM, and trying to say that both regional versions are wholly the same doesn't really work.

Thing is, what exactly is this US continuity? From the top of my head, the first biggest addition/change is the story in the MegaMan manual; the story of assistant Dr. Wily. This story is further recited and added upon in other sources such as Nintendo Power. Kobun20's Reploid Research Lavatory nicely details how this story evolved over time. It's an interesting read, especially if you really value the story as it was originally told in the US.

However, there are also sources in the US continuity that tell of the story as it is told in Japan; MegaMan8 and MegaMan and Bass come to mind. So, either one acknowledges a conflict between those two stories, or one considers them as adding to each other to paint a complete picture.

In the above example, there is no conflict between US and Japan continuity that does not exist within the US continuity itself. As such, there's no need to consider them as separate entities; the US continuity would be the same as the Japan continuity with some added stuff.

Many other things in the US continuity are solely additive; the name of the time institute, the name of the time machine, the time Wily traveled to the future. This is in no way contradictory with what the Japanese text says, and thus can help shape the overall mythology of the series, even if it is not mentioned in Japan. Something similar has happened in X1, when the Japanese took the US-written MMX1 manual and made it their own with only a few alterations.

What else is there? Some of the boxes mentions the characters as cyborgs, but that is also inconsistent with the US continuity itself; as an inconsistency, we do not consider it valid, and it makes no difference in the question of "one continuity versus two".

The only thing that remotely could warrant the existence of a second continuity is the rewrite of the actual game script instead of translating as should be. See: MM7, MMX2, MMX5. However, the same was done in such classic titles as "A Link to the Past" and "Chrono Trigger". Both games have seen a ported rerelease in recent years, with a completely retranslated script, that rectified many of the inconsistencies and yes, "mistranslations", that existed within the originals.

So, what do we do with this? It's easiest to see it all as a huge mistranslation and only the Japanese as bonafide fact. But, for all I care, the altered US script is some strange timeline split akin to IHX's two X playthroughs where everybody for some strange player input reason happens to say different thing, that are still somehow valid. You know, how bosses will say different things to X because you selected a different difficulty?

Like I said before; game stories are entirely linked to player input. What the player does can change the way the plot moves, and it is always unclear what the sequel actually goes by. As already evidenced by such titles as RockmanEXE: this player input of buying a specific version does not make a new canon or continuity. So if you really wish to include information as factual; just consider it the epitome of player input to buy the American version over the Japanese version, and consider both as valid. Just like one shouldn't really care which X playthrough of IHX actually happened, or which EXE game you actually bought.

[The Great Gonzo]

the US continuity would be the same as the Japan continuity with some added stuff.

"Wily being Light's assistant/partner/what have you just prior to stealing Light's robots" (US) is not "Wily went into seclusion, with the implication that his leaving it and his theft of Light's robots happened at the same time" (JP).

[Zan]

"Wily being Light's assistant/partner/what have you just prior to stealing Light's robots" (US) is not "Wily went into seclusion, with the implication that his leaving it and his theft of Light's robots happened at the same time" (JP).

Wily did not seclude and steal Right's robot at "the same time." He secluded himself for some time and stole Right's robots upon his return.

What you seem to have missed however, is that both those things ARE mentioned in US sources. The latter is not Japanese exclusive, at all. Ergo, you're dealing with an inconsistency within the US-continuity.

[The Great Gonzo]

Wily did not seclude and steal Right's robot at "the same time." He secluded himself for some time and stole Right's robots upon his return.

"Wily went into seclusion, with the implication that his leaving it and his theft of Light's robots happened at the same time" (JP).

What you seem to have missed however, is that both those things ARE mentioned in US sources.

The seclusion was never implied in the US versions.

[OBJECTION MAN]

So by Gonzo's logic, rather lack there of, just about each game forms a new continuity. Wonderful.

[The Great Gonzo]

So by Gonzo's logic, rather lack there of, just about each game forms a new continuity. Wonderful.

No.

[Zan]

The seclusion was never implied in the US versions.

Wily's exile was mentioned in Mega Man Powered Up. It is US continuity too. Of course, that just means I'm going to get "Powered Up is a different continuity" thrown my way. Aside from that; the US-continuity is thus in no way different from the Japanese continuity, it is all one whole with many inconsistencies.

Furthermore, reciting myself; it is Capcom's financial whims that translates the Japanese material. Anybody with the financial backing (see Udon) can incorporate the Japanese-exclusive material into your US specific continuity. So, anybody willing to finance a huge translation exercise, or are we still gathering 15 million for DASH3?