The Double Edged Nintendo Fallacy

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Offline Flame

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Reply #150 on: May 15, 2010, 03:52:31 AM
Oh God, Judgement...
Oh God...

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #151 on: May 15, 2010, 04:04:23 AM



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #152 on: May 15, 2010, 06:50:26 AM
I know you can't please everyone. But it's unarguable that certain sequences in games have a big effect on most gamers. I don't know one single person that went through the Andrew Ryan reveal in Bioshock and left without at least recognizing the scene as a fantastic twist. Better to please most, than to not please at all. And some Zelda games have this kind of effect.

It is arguable, because without statistical proof you cannot know for sure what "certain sequence" has a big effect on most gamers.  For example, what about when....Aeris? Aerith? died in FFVII (I think it was VII).  I've heard people say they actually cried when she died in that game, whereas people like me felt nothing for it cause I'm not a Final Fantasy fan.  However even for a couple of friends I know who are die hard FF fans, they felt nothing as well.  This can be the case for Zelda, Metroid, that Bioshock scene you mentioned, or any other game or form of entertainment.  I mean, in Toy Story 2 when Jessie tells Woody her story about her life with Emily, it would move me to tears if I still had the ability to cry.  But that's just me, and a few other people I know.  But I can't say that about most movie fans.

Hell, I mean perhaps I'm not the best example to talk with sequences in games having an effect on me, because if we're talking scenes and story, I'd venture to say that the Zone of the Enders series is probably the only game series in which I actually had an interest in the story, and even I know the story wasn't all that great, in terms of writing and such.  Otherwise though, I don't care about story in games.  I mean, everything you mentioned in Zelda somewhere in this thread I really didn't care about.  Usually the biggest effect a sequence will have on me is that I think it's cool or pretty cool.  But to "move" me or anything like that really doesn't happen with me and games. 



Offline Flame

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Reply #153 on: May 15, 2010, 06:59:50 AM
Ive had Pokemon move me to tears once. yes, Pokemon.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Jericho

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Reply #154 on: May 15, 2010, 07:20:54 AM
I'm kinda wondering what the hell happened in here now. XD

On another note, I think I'm just at an age of disconnect between folks. Sequences, presentations, and the like can all make a great impact within a certain game's framework for me (nothing as crazy as getting emotional though), but at the end of the day, game play is still the biggest draw for me. If you have solid everything else and the game play leaves more to be desired, well, you'll hear it from me when I'm asked.



Offline Fxeni

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Reply #155 on: May 15, 2010, 08:29:06 AM
If you don't like the labels, don't use them. Why whine about them if you're going to use them anyway?
Err... because it's the most universal terms that people use, so that people will know what I mean off the bat. All the terms do really is create a divide between people, especially now that lots of companies are dumbing down their games so that more people have access to them. That's another debate for another topic, though.

And they haven't released much that isn't a rehash of something.
Again, this is new... how now? Companies have been rehashing their stuff for a while now.

Yes, it's their own damn fault to make the Wii appear like a console in which only Nintendo can make any money on, like I said in at least ten replies before.
... Again, how is this Nintendo's fault? I'm pretty sure other companies have made money from the Wii, it's just that a lot of them are rushing stuff out the door to make a quick buck. It's always been like that, especially for the more popular consoles. There's lots of crap out there, but there's some hidden gems in there too. Sure, the Wii hasn't been used to it's full potential yet, but most consoles don't until the end of their life cycle. Someone's bound to figure out a good way to make use of the creative possibilities on there.

and if you try to show me that damn list with Castlevania Judgement on it trying to make it look like a "Good games on Wii list", you'll lose even more credibility.
Hey, I didn't write that list. That said, while maybe not everything on there could be top notch, if you can't really find anything on there that you like... you're just not trying.

A lot of your complaints are valid, but the fact that your just applying them to the Wii and nothing else is a bit... eyebrow raising. Dude, it's always been like this, especially in the N64/GC generations.

Oh God, Judgement...
Oh God...
?
He's showing his dislike for it. I have no opinion on it, never played it.



Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #156 on: May 15, 2010, 12:46:57 PM
It is arguable, because without statistical proof you cannot know for sure what "certain sequence" has a big effect on most gamers.  For example, what about when....Aeris? Aerith? died in FFVII (I think it was VII).  I've heard people say they actually cried when she died in that game, whereas people like me felt nothing for it cause I'm not a Final Fantasy fan.  However even for a couple of friends I know who are die hard FF fans, they felt nothing as well.  This can be the case for Zelda, Metroid, that Bioshock scene you mentioned, or any other game or form of entertainment.  I mean, in Toy Story 2 when Jessie tells Woody her story about her life with Emily, it would move me to tears if I still had the ability to cry.  But that's just me, and a few other people I know.  But I can't say that about most movie fans.

Hell, I mean perhaps I'm not the best example to talk with sequences in games having an effect on me, because if we're talking scenes and story, I'd venture to say that the Zone of the Enders series is probably the only game series in which I actually had an interest in the story, and even I know the story wasn't all that great, in terms of writing and such.  Otherwise though, I don't care about story in games.  I mean, everything you mentioned in Zelda somewhere in this thread I really didn't care about.  Usually the biggest effect a sequence will have on me is that I think it's cool or pretty cool.  But to "move" me or anything like that really doesn't happen with me and games. 
I can understand that. But it's the same thing as crying at the end of Old Yeller, or when Bambi's mom gets shot. No matter how many people are unmoved by it, they're moments which tend to touch most people, as I've said time and time again, it's about reaching the bigger portion of the audience's feelings, not all of it.


Err... because it's the most universal terms that people use, so that people will know what I mean off the bat. All the terms do really is create a divide between people, especially now that lots of companies are dumbing down their games so that more people have access to them. That's another debate for another topic, though.
Make different terms if you don't like using them. Do you see me using the term "graphics whore"? No, because I don't like it. Find something else, or quit whining about it.

Again, this is new... how now? Companies have been rehashing their stuff for a while now.
Oh yes, because we all know Activision is re-releasing Wing Commando completely untouched, with a new coat of graphics, just like Nintendo's doing with Punch-Out!! and New Mario Bros. Oh, and they're releasing a new Pitfall too, completely like the first ones. One thing is sequel-itis, another thing is rehashes. Learn the difference, because I'm getting tired of pointing the obvious things here. I don't see other companies being so eager to put out stuff from the past as Nintendo is, specially in terms of creating a full service just so they could resell old titles for big bucks. XBLA and PSN at least add better graphics, leaderboards and online play. I don't even see a damn button imput option in the Wii's half-assed emulator.

... Again, how is this Nintendo's fault? I'm pretty sure other companies have made money from the Wii, it's just that a lot of them are rushing stuff out the door to make a quick buck. It's always been like that, especially for the more popular consoles. There's lots of crap out there, but there's some hidden gems in there too. Sure, the Wii hasn't been used to it's full potential yet, but most consoles don't until the end of their life cycle. Someone's bound to figure out a good way to make use of the creative possibilities on there.
YES, it's Nintendo's fault. Because they seem to be fine with this situation. They seem to be fine with the fact that few companies are giving a damn to release good stuff on their system, and instead, just put out half-assed attempts of halfway decent games. And that's not enough. Microsoft and Sony actually seem to care about other companies' games on their system. When was the last time you've seen Nintendo publically making an effort to push forward any game that wasn't theirs? Or getting some company exclusively to make a fantastic game for their system? Buying an exclusive, or something? They don't seem to care. Dev kits are flying out the door to any schmoe who can put out a shitty minigame collection, while the overall quality of the titles goes downhill. And the genres in the console keep dwindling. I don't see any simulators. I see few RPGs. Is this any kind of console you'd want to make a game for? I sure wouldn't.

Hey, I didn't write that list. That said, while maybe not everything on there could be top notch, if you can't really find anything on there that you like... you're just not trying.
Oh, fantastic. "Tell me about good games on the Wii." "Here's a random list, sift through the [parasitic bomb], maybe you'll find something there if you try hard enough."

A lot of your complaints are valid, but the fact that your just applying them to the Wii and nothing else is a bit... eyebrow raising. Dude, it's always been like this, especially in the N64/GC generations.
He's showing his dislike for it. I have no opinion on it, never played it.
Because the N64 had Rare support and a ton of other companies making great games for it. It had legendary games made by other companies. And so did the CG, with stuff like Resi 4 and Eternal Darkness. It had outside companies willing to bet on it with incredible and revolutionary games instead of going for other consoles. That's what made them stand out. And Nintendo was willing to have new experiences and sagas in the consoles. Not anymore. And, as always, I had explained this several times before in my previous replies and have to explain it again because you refuse to read them.

And yes, Castlevania: Judgement is quite insanely horrible. When I can say it's a worse Castlevania than the N64 one, you know I'm being serious in terms of shittiness.



Offline Fxeni

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Reply #157 on: May 15, 2010, 03:48:06 PM
Oh yes, because we all know Activision is re-releasing Wing Commando completely untouched, with a new coat of graphics, just like Nintendo's doing with Punch-Out!! and New Mario Bros. Oh, and they're releasing a new Pitfall too, completely like the first ones. One thing is sequel-itis, another thing is rehashes. Learn the difference, because I'm getting tired of pointing the obvious things here. I don't see other companies being so eager to put out stuff from the past as Nintendo is, specially in terms of creating a full service just so they could resell old titles for big bucks. XBLA and PSN at least add better graphics, leaderboards and online play. I don't even see a damn button imput option in the Wii's half-assed emulator.
...Capcom? Konami? Konami's "rebirth" series comes instantly to mind in particular. As do Capcom's Megaman 9&10, and Bionic Commando Rearmed (with a 2 coming).

YES, it's Nintendo's fault. Because they seem to be fine with this situation. They seem to be fine with the fact that few companies are giving a damn to release good stuff on their system, and instead, just put out half-assed attempts of halfway decent games. And that's not enough. Microsoft and Sony actually seem to care about other companies' games on their system. When was the last time you've seen Nintendo publically making an effort to push forward any game that wasn't theirs? Or getting some company exclusively to make a fantastic game for their system? Buying an exclusive, or something? They don't seem to care. Dev kits are flying out the door to any schmoe who can put out a shitty minigame collection, while the overall quality of the titles goes downhill. And the genres in the console keep dwindling. I don't see any simulators. I see few RPGs. Is this any kind of console you'd want to make a game for? I sure wouldn't.
And Sony apparently cared during the PS2 era to you? There was a lot of [parasitic bomb] on that system too. A lot of the releases for it was crap, because it was the cheapest to develop for. Sound familiar?

Because the N64 had Rare support and a ton of other companies making great games for it. It had legendary games made by other companies. And so did the CG, with stuff like Resi 4 and Eternal Darkness. It had outside companies willing to bet on it with incredible and revolutionary games instead of going for other consoles. That's what made them stand out. And Nintendo was willing to have new experiences and sagas in the consoles. Not anymore. And, as always, I had explained this several times before in my previous replies and have to explain it again because you refuse to read them.
You act as if these games were released on a regular basis. Honestly, they weren't. There were long periods of nothing new being on those consoles back in the day, with those few standing out whenever they finally got released. These things didn't come out often. As for what Nintendo released, aside from Pikmin and Chibi Robo, what else was there (other than the usual franchises)? I keep asking these questions because your responses to this just don't work. You complain that Nintendo had more back then than it does now, but in reality those games you mention were stretched out over quite the long time between releases.



Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #158 on: May 15, 2010, 07:26:05 PM
...Capcom? Konami? Konami's "rebirth" series comes instantly to mind in particular. As do Capcom's Megaman 9&10, and Bionic Commando Rearmed (with a 2 coming).
And Sony apparently cared during the PS2 era to you? There was a lot of [parasitic bomb] on that system too. A lot of the releases for it was crap, because it was the cheapest to develop for. Sound familiar?
You act as if these games were released on a regular basis. Honestly, they weren't. There were long periods of nothing new being on those consoles back in the day, with those few standing out whenever they finally got released. These things didn't come out often. As for what Nintendo released, aside from Pikmin and Chibi Robo, what else was there (other than the usual franchises)? I keep asking these questions because your responses to this just don't work. You complain that Nintendo had more back then than it does now, but in reality those games you mention were stretched out over quite the long time between releases.
Oh yes, because XBLA/PSN games = TOTALLY equal new ones. 8D At least they have the decency to price them accordingly.

Sony? Compare the friggin' awesome list of constant AAA games there was for that system. I remember they had pretty much a game I felt like playing every week. Simulators, RPGs, fighting games, action/adventure. Where's my GTA3/Vice City/San Andreas on the Wii? Where's my Jak trilogy on the Wii? Where's my FFX/XI/XII on the Wii? Where's my Prince of Persia Trilogy on the Wii? Where's my Spider-Man 2 on the Wii? Where's my Onimusha 3 on the Wii? Where's my Zone of the Enders 1/2 on the Wii? Where's my God of War on the Wii? Where's my God Hand (or equivalent to Okami) on the Wii? Where's my Viewtiful Joe on the Wii? Where's my ICO/Shadow of the Colossus on the Wii? Where's my Yakuza on the Wii? My MGS2/MGS3 on the Wii? My Devil May Cry 1/3 on the Wii? Where's my Gran Turismo on the Wii? Where's my Persona 3/4 on the Wii? Where's my Disgaea 1/2 on the Wii? Where's my Burnout 3 on the Wii? Where's my DOA2 on the Wii? Where's my Timesplitters on the Wii? Where's my Ratchet & Clank Trilogy on the Wii? Where's my Sly Trilogy on the Wii? Where's my Tekken 4/5 on the Wii?

(I added this later because with someone like you, it's probable that you're going to go through my list and dig stuff like the shitty Prince of Persia 3 port, or some other thing that kinda looks like or seems like this game. My point is completely different, don't bother.)

I could keep going all day and all night. These are just half the titles on my shelves. And I don't even have half, probably not even a quarter of all the AAA games the PS2 has out. Do you know why the PS2 won the last console race? It wasn't because of the popularity alone, no. It was because it didn't matter how much shovelware came out for it, all the awesome games ended up coming out for it too. Add that to the ton of great exclusives it had when compared to the other consoles, and add that even more to being the easiest console to develop for at the time, plus still being THE console for RPGs, plus still having games come out for it in Japan... the PS2 had about one different AAA title released per month, or per every two weeks. And had more good games coming out at the same time. It was a damn race to keep up with the good releases while my XBox and Gamecube were left in the dust, and I recognize that because I'm still trying to keep up, and still haven't finished getting all the games I want for it. Sony cared for it and developed titles, but they didn't need to give it alot of attention, because everyone and their dog wanted to develop for it. The PS2 ended up being one of the most popular consoles of all time, and receiving a staggering number of incredible titles for it from all companies. If you're going to compare any console's run, WHY the PS2? Because the PS2 is the primest of prime examples on how to keep a console fully supplied with awesome titles all the damn time.

And the games might have not been released on a very regular basis, but it certainly was better than what we have now. And those games WERE released at all. And there were plenty of other titles. Custom Robo? Cubivore? Doshin the Giant? These might not all have been incredible quality games, but Nintendo was trying something new. And there were good third-party titles.



Offline Jericho

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Reply #159 on: May 15, 2010, 08:30:29 PM
You know I really don't want to nitpick, but the PS2's software library was godly because everyone developed for it. Hardly anyone is developing on Wii because they either have a mindset against what the Wii is and the direction it's going it, have already invested in (and are making good returns on) 360/PS3 development and see no real need to develop Wii content, or they are wary of dedicating support to the Wii this late in the console generation. The second and last reasons are solid considering that a lot of things are decided upon and set in stone from the jump with publishers & dev houses. Radically changing up your strategies and shaking up the pot would require massive leaps of on the spot thinking that could lead to SEGA like instances of not knowing what the hell you can or should do, not finding a specialization, and leaking absurd amounts of money in the process. It's sad though that the folks making the big decisions couldn't learn to adapt so that even if they & their companies weren't gung-ho Wii specific developers, they would have things in place so that a good community of Wii developers (and as a result, a better flow of Wii games) could exist.

The other thing I have to ask is, why does Nintendo have to go out and court developers to build content for the Wii? This is business first off! Opportunity knocks, but she's not going to give you a blowjob and make you sammiches in order to make you realize that she could be worth it! You have to work for it! XD

EDIT: I just realized that this is even worse than my words convey because Nintendo even made sure to make a comfortable new landscape and playing rules to draw the developers to them since they might need persuasion after being burnt in the Yamauchi years and Nintendo's iron fisted tactics with them in those days!

Why can't (or couldn't) developers see that there's a new landscape there to create the new and interesting and make a pretty penny doing so? Instead of using this to their advantage, they churned out drivel of the worst kind intending to swindle the "derp derp casuals" out of some money here and there and as a result spurned the general Wii audience from being receptive of anything of any quality unless it carries a Nintendo logo. This puts an unnatural bit of focus on Nintendo as the sole provider of decent Wii experiences (part of the reason why I feel this thread exists currently and why this train of thought is still as current as ever). All at the same time, Nintendo has been doing things at its own pace the same way it has been since the NES days in terms of a release schedule. The only difference is that now, with all those circumstances behind it and Nintendo seen as the "champ" for selling a fuckton, the gamers are impatient and want their big glorious hits one after another constantly. It. Can't. Work. Like. That. Nintendo's a tiny company (go back to my comments on the staffing and methods behind its madness with money). They try their best to cater and provide all while growing at a rate they can handle, but you won't see the results of this instantly.

Here's an interesting tidbit one should keep in mind, within the amount of time from day 1 of this gen to now, Nintendo's output of games from their franchises this gen has been outpacing their output for every console of theirs outside of the NES (and possibly SNES) in terms of amount of time the console was released to time the game was released. (The circulation of IPs used on Wii is an issue though, so don't think I'm going to play the role of Nintendo good cop through and through. :P) With the quality being subjective, they've done a good job for what little bit of manpower they have.

Tangent: I think this whole bit about getting people and franchises on board with one company's system(s) is a problem with the game industry. Instead of everyone creating brand new experiences and cultivating the market to be receptive to these things, all 3 companies were fighting tooth and nail for "exclusives" or big name franchises to grace their systems since they were banking on these "sure-seller AAA tier games" to carry themselves. In a sense, I feel as though this is the wrong way to do things. Why can't people build up from scratch anymore? I guess there's multiple facets to the answer, but in the end, I don't think that asking straight up for an experience that exists on one platform to be on another is ever a good solution, from a gamer or business position, especially now when dealing with the clear and blatant split between Wii & PS360 gaming.

My final note which is a bit far removed from the discussion thus fat is that if you're interested, there's a pretty recent article with an excerpt from Iwata stating that they have acknowledged the troubles Wii has been having with getting dev support and how Nintendo is now taking the initiative to bring them on board. Let me go fetch the link from GAF first though.



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #160 on: May 15, 2010, 09:52:39 PM
I can understand that. But it's the same thing as crying at the end of Old Yeller, or when Bambi's mom gets shot. No matter how many people are unmoved by it, they're moments which tend to touch most people, as I've said time and time again, it's about reaching the bigger portion of the audience's feelings, not all of it.

But again, without statistical evidence as to how many were touched vs. how many weren't touched, you can't make a judgment if the bigger portion was touched or not.  That's why feelings are tricky like that.

Sony? Compare the friggin' awesome list of constant AAA games there was for that system. I remember they had pretty much a game I felt like playing every week. Simulators, RPGs, fighting games, action/adventure. Where's my GTA3/Vice City/San Andreas on the Wii? Where's my Jak trilogy on the Wii? Where's my FFX/XI/XII on the Wii? Where's my Prince of Persia Trilogy on the Wii? Where's my Spider-Man 2 on the Wii? Where's my Onimusha 3 on the Wii? Where's my Zone of the Enders 1/2 on the Wii? Where's my God of War on the Wii? Where's my God Hand (or equivalent to Okami) on the Wii? Where's my Viewtiful Joe on the Wii? Where's my ICO/Shadow of the Colossus on the Wii? Where's my Yakuza on the Wii? My MGS2/MGS3 on the Wii? My Devil May Cry 1/3 on the Wii? Where's my Gran Turismo on the Wii? Where's my Persona 3/4 on the Wii? Where's my Disgaea 1/2 on the Wii? Where's my Burnout 3 on the Wii? Where's my DOA2 on the Wii? Where's my Timesplitters on the Wii? Where's my Ratchet & Clank Trilogy on the Wii? Where's my Sly Trilogy on the Wii? Where's my Tekken 4/5 on the Wii?

The same thing can be said for this list.  Honestly I feel this is all a simple matter of perspective.  Whereas you, and many others, feel those games are awesome, there are lots of people out there who can look at that list and just say "Meh" to it.  This is similar to Flame's argument in another thread that even bad games with glitches can be good.  It's all within the eye of the beholder.  Someone could easily just as well say Where's my Boom Blox on the PS3?  Where's my Zack & Wiki on the 360?  Where's my Madworld on the PS3?  Where's my Monster Hunter Tri on the 360?  Where's my Muramasa on the PS3?  Where's my Wii Fit on the 360?  Where's my Wii Sports Resort on the PS3?  Where's my Super Smash Bros. Brawl on the 360?  and so on and so forth.  Just like back then, you could argue the Dreamcast vs. the PS2.  The Dreamcast was a great system, had great games, and ultimately failed because the PS2 was the cheapest DVD player available and the Dreamcast wasn't marketed very well.

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I could keep going all day and all night. These are just half the titles on my shelves. And I don't even have half, probably not even a quarter of all the AAA games the PS2 has out. Do you know why the PS2 won the last console race? It wasn't because of the popularity alone, no. It was because it didn't matter how much shovelware came out for it, all the awesome games ended up coming out for it too. Add that to the ton of great exclusives it had when compared to the other consoles, and add that even more to being the easiest console to develop for at the time, plus still being THE console for RPGs, plus still having games come out for it in Japan... the PS2 had about one different AAA title released per month, or per every two weeks. And had more good games coming out at the same time. It was a damn race to keep up with the good releases while my XBox and Gamecube were left in the dust, and I recognize that because I'm still trying to keep up, and still haven't finished getting all the games I want for it. Sony cared for it and developed titles, but they didn't need to give it alot of attention, because everyone and their dog wanted to develop for it. The PS2 ended up being one of the most popular consoles of all time, and receiving a staggering number of incredible titles for it from all companies. If you're going to compare any console's run, WHY the PS2? Because the PS2 is the primest of prime examples on how to keep a console fully supplied with awesome titles all the damn time.

Nothing I disagree with here, but if this is the case with you, then I'm curious if you feel that Sony has let you down with the PS3 like Nintendo has let you down with the Wii?

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And the games might have not been released on a very regular basis, but it certainly was better than what we have now. And those games WERE released at all. And there were plenty of other titles. Custom Robo? Cubivore? Doshin the Giant? These might not all have been incredible quality games, but Nintendo was trying something new. And there were good third-party titles.

Again, Nintendo did try something new with the Wii as well, and judging by the $20 Million sellers they have with Wii Play & Wii Fit, and the close to $20 Million sellers they have coming, its succeeded.  The problem with this success is that other companies wanna try and get dat pimp money, as it were.  The reason the PS2 had all those titles you mentioned was because that was the market that bought the PS2 so that's were the money was to be made.  You're right in that the PS2 was THE system for RPG's, so clearly they are going to try to cater to the RPG crowd.  Meanwhile, clearly the Wii caters to the more family oriented fun type of games, because that's where the money is coming from, and "cash money ain't ever gonna play out." (Ice-T, New Jack Hustler).  Like with everything in the gaming industry, it's all about money.  Despite the technological advances since arcades, all of our console systems and our handheld systems are just quarter munching whore machines.  Like I mentioned before, it's like when I talked to Seth Killian about if we'd ever see a Power Stone 3 and he told me from a business standpoint, it makes no sense when they can just release a new Street Fighter game and without question make much more money developing something like that rather than developing a new Power Stone game.



Offline Mirby

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Reply #161 on: May 16, 2010, 03:00:50 AM
Quote from: Bleck
nintendo doesn't change anything - people rage about series getting stagnant

nintendo changes something - people rage about it not being enough

nintendo changes everything - people rage about nintendo FORGETTING ITS ROOTS

So I lied... again... sue me. I just saw this post on another forum and thought it was relevant to this.

OH [parasitic bomb] IM USING LINK AND I ACCIDENTALLY FINAL SMASHED A CUCCO OH GOD HELP
Just enjoy yourself, don't complain about everything


Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #162 on: May 16, 2010, 03:37:10 AM
Woohoo, smart replies at last from people who know how to debate! I'll reply tomorrow though, if you guys don't mind. Just came back from a metal concert. Oh, I'm gonna have fun debating the overall good/bad territory where the PS2 stood, and probably even do a little graph with the releases of PS3/360 over Wii games, the overall showing of good versus bad quality games on each system, the way the PS3 started out as having few games but is slowly and steadily gaining up and even perhaps overcoming the 360, maybe make a calendar showing the average game releases, how long you take to play a game and how long a Wii can be left catching dust with this versus that interest, and maybe I'll list all the defined genres of games, and to how the Wii overall can or cannot satisfy players of this or that genre of gaming.

HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO, it's gonna be goooood!  :V



Offline Pyro

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Reply #163 on: May 16, 2010, 04:25:10 AM
Since I have no interest in debating, I will make a quick "hit and post" to just throw my opinion out there. So... *ahem*

Neither the PS3, nor the 360 has produced anything worthy of my attention. Take this with a grain of salt as my interest in video games as a whole has waned to the point where I play Pokemon on a regular basis.

Come and read some Thoughts of a Platypus


Offline Fxeni

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Reply #164 on: May 16, 2010, 04:36:25 AM
Again, Nintendo did try something new with the Wii as well, and judging by the $20 Million sellers they have with Wii Play & Wii Fit, and the close to $20 Million sellers they have coming, its succeeded.  The problem with this success is that other companies wanna try and get dat pimp money, as it were.  The reason the PS2 had all those titles you mentioned was because that was the market that bought the PS2 so that's were the money was to be made.  You're right in that the PS2 was THE system for RPG's, so clearly they are going to try to cater to the RPG crowd.  Meanwhile, clearly the Wii caters to the more family oriented fun type of games, because that's where the money is coming from, and "cash money ain't ever gonna play out." (Ice-T, New Jack Hustler).  Like with everything in the gaming industry, it's all about money.  Despite the technological advances since arcades, all of our console systems and our handheld systems are just quarter munching whore machines.  Like I mentioned before, it's like when I talked to Seth Killian about if we'd ever see a Power Stone 3 and he told me from a business standpoint, it makes no sense when they can just release a new Street Fighter game and without question make much more money developing something like that rather than developing a new Power Stone game.
Pretty much why I brought up the PS2, really. It was successful for a different crowd, however, which is the issue Flash has with it. Fine and dandy. Can you really blame people for trying to make a quick buck? It also helps that both consoles in question here were the cheapest to develop games for.

Also, as Jericho said, a lot of the reason there might not be as many third party devs on the Wii as they possibly could have stems from the past... hence my pointing out that this stuff has been going on for a long time and is certainly not limited to the Wii era for Nintendo. My problem with some of the things you said is because you're pretty much just blasting Nintendo for their actions now, when it's been a long time this sort of thing has been an issue for them.

My final note which is a bit far removed from the discussion thus fat is that if you're interested, there's a pretty recent article with an excerpt from Iwata stating that they have acknowledged the troubles Wii has been having with getting dev support and how Nintendo is now taking the initiative to bring them on board. Let me go fetch the link from GAF first though.
Really? That would be pretty good if they manage to get the ones they scared off.

Oh, and Flash? Just so you know, I'm not a fan of NSMBWii myself. A lot of the old school fans love it though.

Since I have no interest in debating, I will make a quick "hit and post" to just throw my opinion out there. So... *ahem*

Neither the PS3, nor the 360 has produced anything worthy of my attention. Take this with a grain of salt as my interest in video games as a whole has waned to the point where I play Pokemon on a regular basis.
The problem for me with the popular games on these consoles is that for a lot of them I'd much rather play them on a computer... and a good portion of them I can :P



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Reply #165 on: May 16, 2010, 04:37:47 AM
What? My point wasn't good?

OH [parasitic bomb] IM USING LINK AND I ACCIDENTALLY FINAL SMASHED A CUCCO OH GOD HELP
Just enjoy yourself, don't complain about everything


Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #166 on: May 16, 2010, 04:45:58 AM
Pretty much why I brought up the PS2, really. It was successful for a different crowd, however, which is the issue Flash has with it. Fine and dandy. Can you really blame people for trying to make a quick buck? It also helps that both consoles in question here were the cheapest to develop games for.

Also, as Jericho said, a lot of the reason there might not be as many third party devs on the Wii as they possibly could have stems from the past... hence my pointing out that this stuff has been going on for a long time and is certainly not limited to the Wii era for Nintendo. My problem with some of the things you said is because you're pretty much just blasting Nintendo for their actions now, when it's been a long time this sort of thing has been an issue for them.
Really? That would be pretty good if they manage to get the ones they scared off.

Oh, and Flash? Just so you know, I'm not a fan of NSMBWii myself. A lot of the old school fans love it though.
The problem for me with the popular games on these consoles is that for a lot of them I'd much rather play them on a computer... and a good portion of them I can :P

- I don't blame Nintendo for wanting to make a quick buck nor for being lazy. I can protest about it, same as people protest about EA or Activision's bullshit.
- I'm blasting Nintendo because they've created an environment where developers don't believe they can make money on the Wii. They recognize this problem themselves. Why can't you?
- Nothing wrong with loving it. It's wrong to accept it as the only thing to expect from a console that "revolutionizes gameplay" however.
- We're talking consoles here. Don't mess the subjects up. PC is PC, and having an up-to-date PC is a costly development which makes more people invest in consoles and have a certified 5-year window of games to play through.

What? My point wasn't good?
It was irrelevant.



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Reply #167 on: May 16, 2010, 05:22:30 AM
- I'm blasting Nintendo because they've created an environment where developers don't believe they can make money on the Wii. They recognize this problem themselves. Why can't you?

False. Nintendo created a very open environment where any and every kind of developer could have prospered (*remembers old quotes on how they even lessened the QA needed for a game to be released on Wii) and Iwata personally saw to abolishing old Nintendo practices to entice the devs on top of creating the market space. 3rd parties [parasitic bomb] on that party though by passing along the worst kind of shovel wares and "me too" attempts at emulating the Wii ___ line.

Come on man, I just mentioned this in my last post! XD



Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #168 on: May 16, 2010, 05:46:13 AM
False. Nintendo created a very open environment where any and every kind of developer could have prospered (*remembers old quotes on how they even lessened the QA needed for a game to be released on Wii) and Iwata personally saw to abolishing old Nintendo practices to entice the devs on top of creating the market space. 3rd parties [parasitic bomb] on that party though by passing along the worst kind of shovel wares and "me too" attempts at emulating the Wii ___ line.

Come on man, I just mentioned this in my last post! XD
I don't know about Nintendo's working practices, but as far as I've seen, tons of known developers have mentioned the Wii to be a scary console to develop for when you're not talking about throwaway games. Nintendo doesn't seem to be doing anything to remedy this situation at the moment. And I find it hard to believe that NO game-developing third-party in the world could ever enter new, exciting and highly sellable games, give them the proper amount of advertising, and simply release them on the Wii if it was that simple. No, I kinda think all the smart people simply went for the consoles you can pull out multiplatform on, where you can push the graphics to the maximum and have all the different genres you want without control limitations.

So, every single third-party in the world pretty much went up to Nintendo and gave them shovelware and less-practical games at the same time. No AAA games at all, as I can see. That's kinda hard to believe were they in a comfortable position as you described. They did it because nobody took the Wii seriously when it was launched. The limitation of the controller and the system itself got people thinking there couldn't be alot of buyers for that system. Surprise surprise, there were. So developers emulated what Nintendo was selling at the time, which was selling good. Did it work? No. Did they try again, with better games? The ones who did, like Capcom with Zack & Wiki, and Sega with Madworld, got burnt and their stuff didn't sell well. (Sega had quite a big campaign for Madworld, so no blaming that). What did Nintendo do about that? Nothing I can really think of, because THEIR stuff was selling.



Offline Fxeni

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Reply #169 on: May 16, 2010, 06:03:13 AM
- I'm blasting Nintendo because they've created an environment where developers don't believe they can make money on the Wii. They recognize this problem themselves. Why can't you?
I'm saying that it's more because of past actions moreso than what they're doing now. You made it sound like it's only things they're doing now (again, whether this was your intent or not isn't clear). That's all I'm trying to say.

- We're talking consoles here. Don't mess the subjects up. PC is PC, and having an up-to-date PC is a costly development which makes more people invest in consoles and have a certified 5-year window of games to play through.
It was irrelevant.
I was responding to him, didn't intend to bring PCs into the equation.



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Reply #170 on: May 16, 2010, 07:23:28 AM
I don't know about Nintendo's working practices, but as far as I've seen, tons of known developers have mentioned the Wii to be a scary console to develop for when you're not talking about throwaway games. Nintendo doesn't seem to be doing anything to remedy this situation at the moment. And I find it hard to believe that NO game-developing third-party in the world could ever enter new, exciting and highly sellable games, give them the proper amount of advertising, and simply release them on the Wii if it was that simple. No, I kinda think all the smart people simply went for the consoles you can pull out multiplatform on, where you can push the graphics to the maximum and have all the different genres you want without control limitations.

So, every single third-party in the world pretty much went up to Nintendo and gave them shovelware and less-practical games at the same time. No AAA games at all, as I can see. That's kinda hard to believe were they in a comfortable position as you described. They did it because nobody took the Wii seriously when it was launched. The limitation of the controller and the system itself got people thinking there couldn't be alot of buyers for that system. Surprise surprise, there were. So developers emulated what Nintendo was selling at the time, which was selling good. Did it work? No. Did they try again, with better games? The ones who did, like Capcom with Zack & Wiki, and Sega with Madworld, got burnt and their stuff didn't sell well. (Sega had quite a big campaign for Madworld, so no blaming that). What did Nintendo do about that? Nothing I can really think of, because THEIR stuff was selling.

First off, the bold right? That's the developers' and publishers' faults, not Nintendo's. They were given all they were needed to do what they did best and promptly dropped it all on the floor like a petulant child crying "waaahh this console is teh dumb/casual/don't do purty effectz". They don't want to provide for Wii plain and simple. They feel as though it's a novelty that is getting in the way of the "chasing Hollywood" model that a lot of people, both gamers and developers lap up at a moment's notice. They make gamer's games. They are programmed to make the biggest & best, but can't understand how to make something lasting and relevant to a new landscape and audience comprised of people who might be brand new to gaming or don't have a deep background in it. They haven't put thought into what kind of content resonates best within the new market and without that bit of experience, they can't make games with these new experiences that have/has been expected of Wii games.

As such, they have begun to spread the worst kind of FUD on what it's like to make a Wii game (recalls a blatant troll attempt by someone in the industry (as in holding a position as developer in this industry) stating that Madworld needed to sell 1 or 2 million units to recoup its development costs; also recalls the CEO of Epic Games constant and consistent comments on why developing for Wii was never going to be considered), all in an attempt to dissuade attempts at doing something with the console and market. At this point however, it doesn't make much difference. Customers have already made their assumptions on what to expect from any game that doesn't have a Nintendo logo, thus 3rd party games don't sell, thus developers [sonic slicer] and moan about how it's impossible to turn profits on the Wii, thus publishers scale back the amount of titles they want or have lined up for the Wii, thus gamers go around saying "Wii has no games" and everyone's unhappy with the exceptions being those developers who started the circle with the discouraging "support" and now have their bread buttered with checks made out by Sony or Microsoft.

Secondly, I don't know how intelligent these smart people who chased development elsewhere are when they can't think far enough outside of the box to come up with one or two little ideas or invest even a little in think tanks that could work around the supposed limitations of the system, such as the Wii being unable to do certain gameplay, and deliver new content that wasn't insultingly derivative. Remember the PS2? That console was absolutely murdered in terms of pure technical merit by the Gamecube and Xbox, yet despite that, developers were able to create the God of Wars, Metal Gear Solids, Zones of The Enders, Devil May Crys, Onimushas, Final Fantasies, Kingdom Hearts, Jak & Daxters, Slys, Ratchets, Personas, SoTC and Ico. (Please don't use the similar controller and hardware line against this. The point is if developers really wanted to develop for Wii and make good games in the face of all the Wii's issues, controls differences and limitations, it wouldn't be anything new since they all should have been used to making these great games and gameplay for the "inferior" PS2.) On top of that, Wii is actually capable of game play and applications that can't be done traditionally with buttons and pads. Developers had a choice at the beginning of this all to cover all their bases with equal support or do what they did and served up a steaming plethora of bad "me toos" and "I want ins".

Next up, I want to kinda take apart that Madworld thing for a second since it's popped into mind. SEGA made this game into some form of second coming, and honestly I can see why it would be so. Looking at what it had going for itself:

- It was made by Platinum Games, a group with a god tier pedigree thanks to the creative talent of Capcom's former Clover team making the bulk of its self
- It was a game tailor made to the Wii's strengths while addressing and (seemingly) working around its problems
- The game had a marketing blitz, actual ad campaigns & tons of promotions

It seemed like it was going to be a huge deal, however, there was tons of writing on the wall that spelled out Madworld's fate:

- The game was made by developers for a very niche group of fans. You could tell from its presentation to its inclusion of homages throughout the game.
- The game was rife with jarring content that would turn off anyone from even trying it unless they were of the mindset the game was catered to accomodating. This is made more true by its ultra gory and bloody (although stylized) combat, the absolutely profane (but damn hilarious XD) commentary, and the whole "bloodsport" presentation it took upon itself.
- Although this is a very vain nitpick to most folks, there were quite a few instances of technical issues as well as situations where options that were standard on Wii games were completely lacking in the finished game (no 480p, Europeans got shafted in terms of the 50Hz/60Hz debacle). These are features that the hardcore (using this word to mean very invested in their gaming, not the kind of games they buy) supporters would notice right away and be put off by.

Yet, even for all of my stating that Madworld was a mismatch in terms of massive sucess, SEGA has gone on record and said that Madworld has done very well for itself over time. Capcom had a similar situation with Zack & Wiki (pure Monkey Island-esque adventure game in '07 with "almost but not quite controls" and a total lack of backing in the marketing area), and that game has done well enough that Capcom doesn't consider it a glaring mark of failure anymore. That was with practically nothing in the way of marketing.

So the fact of the matter is that Wii gamers will not shun quality, if it's good, they'll come to it. They are also open and receptive to things so long as they aren't overdone. They are also capable of making informed decisions and purchases which explains why developers & publishers get mad when C rate trash is straight up rejected and cash ins are relegated to eternal store display stand ins. It's now the developer's jobs (as it should be) to provide the gamers with content.

Finally, since I neglected to make a note on this, hell yes Nintendo has the right mindset there. Why the hell should I help you up for the umpteenth time when I already showed you how to move in the game? It's your choice to make bad calls when I already gave you a fair playing ground and rules. I'm not going to bend over backwards to accommodate you when time and time again you've shown that you won't put in any effort.

(Tangent: Wii games are notoriously slow burners. Best example of this is de Blob, a game that debuted with less than 250K copies that wound up selling more than a million within the timeframe of a year. Frontloaded sales don't happen often on Wii, but that doesn't mean that quality doesn't get picked up on with time and word of mouth. These things don't interest most publishers and developers though as the Hollywood model creeps into play and dictates that if you don't sell wild numbers at first, the [parasitic bomb] is BOMBA.)



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Reply #171 on: May 16, 2010, 03:26:03 PM
Just asking a question-
Does anyone know that the deal was with Metroid Prime trilogy suddenly being pulled as if it was some "Limited time" exclusive?
I mean, it is an exclusive for sure, considering japan had to buy all 3 separately, but what was the deal with that?

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #172 on: May 16, 2010, 04:10:22 PM
Dunno.  I still see department stores selling it at the usual retail price point.  I guess brick-and-mortar video game stock moves slowly these days, because if you search on Amazon they do have new copies yet, but they're more expensive.

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Reply #173 on: May 16, 2010, 11:54:55 PM
Just asking a question-
Does anyone know that the deal was with Metroid Prime trilogy suddenly being pulled as if it was some "Limited time" exclusive?
I mean, it is an exclusive for sure, considering japan had to buy all 3 separately, but what was the deal with that?

I don't know why they pulled it. I certainly didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.