Why we can't have a Sonic game with nothing but speed...

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Offline Nexus

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Reply #50 on: December 02, 2008, 06:05:10 PM
I still stand by my want for 2.5D remakes of Sonic 1-3 (& Knuckles) for the DS or PSP. Maybe a choice between "classic" and "arranged" modes, classic being the original and arranged being the remake.  O^O



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #51 on: December 02, 2008, 07:10:47 PM
Remember, at the time people were asking for speed-based gameplay, we had just gotten done with Sonic Adventure 1 (which had some okay levels) and Sonic Adventure 2 (which was both glitchy and slow, saddling the player with more Emerald hunting and mech-shooting).

...

2) Eliminate polled consumer input, and undertake an overhauling of basic principles to more closely match the games that are respected and sold well (S1, S2, S3&K, SAdve1, SAdva1). This may require remaking Sonic 2 or Sonic 3 & Knuckles so that the newer employees understand how to design the game correctly.
May I just say that I resent the attitude against Sonic Adventure 2.  Which was, incidentally, at time of release widely respected as the masterpiece it was, and then later torn into once it was ported to GCN.

Even if the game is a "quality over quantity" thing, the stage and boss designs are still very well done, far better than SA1.  SA1 just delivered more of it.  And SA2 is *MUCH* less glitchy than SA1, in which I have had several fall-through-the-floor incidents as well as the craptacular physics and control response for standing on an incline.  Really, Tails was their only misstep in SA2, but unfortunately he occupies a lot of the Hero Story game time.

And personally I didn't think much of Advance.  It was decent, but not exceptional.  I don't know many players who would take it over Rush, and I certainly wouldn't.

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Offline Ephidiel

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Reply #52 on: December 02, 2008, 08:08:03 PM
a friend of mine said to me that she won't buy SU she played a day stage and told me its too fast

i personally think its pretty good and i would like to see more sonic games with the hedgehogengine
and i would definitly buy a 3h Sonic gamewith nothingbut speed.


i wonder if a remake of S3K with the Hedgehog engine would work. But it could be awesome




Offline Satoryu

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Reply #53 on: December 02, 2008, 08:23:25 PM
Dear Sega:

Don't you dare touch Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Gaming greatness like that should never be tampered with. Leave it as a piece to look back to. Work from it, don't work on top of it. The same goes for 1, 2, and CD.

Sincerely,
A Real Sonic Fan


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Offline Ephidiel

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Reply #54 on: December 02, 2008, 09:07:23 PM
;__;

and just a normal remake ?



Offline Jericho

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Reply #55 on: December 02, 2008, 09:08:08 PM
;__;

and just a normal remake ?

See Sonic 1 Genesis on GBA. X(



Offline VixyNyan

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Reply #56 on: December 02, 2008, 09:13:06 PM
See Sonic 1 Genesis on GBA. X(

BURN IT WITH FIRE!!! >BD

*goes to find her review of it*

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Offline Phi

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Reply #57 on: December 02, 2008, 09:15:08 PM
Dear Sega:

Don't you dare touch Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Gaming greatness like that should never be tampered with. Leave it as a piece to look back to. Work from it, don't work on top of it. The same goes for 1, 2, and CD.

Sincerely,
A Real Sonic Fan
QFT!



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Reply #58 on: December 02, 2008, 09:18:42 PM
BURN IT WITH FIRE!!! >BD

*goes to find her review of it*
And let us not forget that a lone hacker one-upped them.
http://www.sonicretro.org/2008/08/30/sonic-1-gba-port-by-stealth-revealed/

Yeah, I can see why one wouldn't be confident in Sega's remake abilities after that mess.

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Offline Nexus

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Reply #59 on: December 02, 2008, 11:53:47 PM
And let us not forget that a lone hacker one-upped them.
http://www.sonicretro.org/2008/08/30/sonic-1-gba-port-by-stealth-revealed/

Yeah, I can see why one wouldn't be confident in Sega's remake abilities after that mess.

And did Dimps have anything to do with the shittastic port? I'd trust Dimps more than I do the Sonic Team itself.



Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #60 on: December 02, 2008, 11:55:50 PM
May I just say that I resent the attitude against Sonic Adventure 2.  Which was, incidentally, at time of release widely respected as the masterpiece it was, and then later torn into once it was ported to GCN.

Even if the game is a "quality over quantity" thing, the stage and boss designs are still very well done, far better than SA1.  SA1 just delivered more of it.  And SA2 is *MUCH* less glitchy than SA1, in which I have had several fall-through-the-floor incidents as well as the craptacular physics and control response for standing on an incline.  Really, Tails was their only misstep in SA2, but unfortunately he occupies a lot of the Hero Story game time.

And personally I didn't think much of Advance.  It was decent, but not exceptional.  I don't know many players who would take it over Rush, and I certainly wouldn't.

And I say Sonic Adventure 2 still had its ups and downs. The only reason it wasn't utterly trashed when it came out is because Sonic Adventure 1 was still strong on everyone's minds and there weren't 2 games or so a year.

Sonic Adventure 1 did have its share of glitches, to be fair. I specifically HATE Final Egg's propellor lifts, not to mention the "autorun" segments in Windy Valley and Speed Highway that hindered any exploration or creativity on the part of the player, in addition to just flat out being poorly tested. However, this does not excuse Sonic Adventure 2. While City Escape and Metal Harbor did improve on the "autorun", the game was 1/4 speed, 3/4 Werehog. The stages that weren't Sonic and Shadow were so boring it made you want to cry. Then, when you finally did get to a speed stage, either a rail or a glitch wind up killing you with you still trying to figure out what you did wrong (when you didn't; Shadow's Final Chase is a good example of this). Apparently, Sonic Team was VERY new to this "ingenious" Rails gimmick of theirs. Sonic's Final Rush stage is okay until you get to the gravity puzzle. At this point, it's frustration city. On top of that, the powerups were numerous and fairly useless as compared to their SA1 counterparts, then boss battles were as mind-numbingly easy as ever (not counting the character vs. character battles of SA1).

Advance was basic. Rush, though it had some nice ideas, had a perfect collection of all the things that makes people angry; ambiguously designed puzzles, open-bottom levels, more rail BS, and since when did enemies have LIFEBARS and battle rooms?

Dear Sega:

Don't you dare touch Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Gaming greatness like that should never be tampered with. Leave it as a piece to look back to. Work from it, don't work on top of it. The same goes for 1, 2, and CD.

Sincerely,
A Real Sonic Fan

I'm assuming they don't screw it up like Sonic Genesis. And it can be done; look at Kirby Superstar Ultra. In minor ways, it actually improved upon the original game while still maintaining proper aspect ratios, puzzle spacing, etc. Revenge of the King, while not impossibly hard, did force the player to think one step ahead or fall prey to the vulnerabilities of the provided powers matched up against a bevy of long-lasting enemies (Suplex and Parasol are king in this game).

If these new guys at Sonic Team don't work their way backwards, they're never going to figure out how it's all supposed to mesh.



Offline Flame

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Reply #61 on: December 03, 2008, 12:03:43 AM
Hrm, perhaps if the controls were messed with a bit.  From what I saw, it looked nice.  At least full sprite sheets are floating around that I can use to finish off that Quickman sprite sheet I had started on a few years back...

Sonic 3D Blast was... meh.  It just lacked that Sonic feel. 
[tornado fang] yeah Sonic Xtreme. I love the whole trippy mario Galaxy feel it has no? the music that playes is so sweet,  have it on my MP3 player.

BTW,
-Wallotext-
tl;dr: Sonic Xtreme was canned because it was crap. There's an old tech demo leaked by AssemblerGames floating around for those that want to give it a shot. It looked nice on paper, but it played horribly.
does you know any links?
also, whats awesome is that at one point the team was actually locked in the room for nights on end, with food brought to them so they could get something acomplished. also, wasnt the whole problem the boss engine? the fact that they wanted something different for the boss engine?

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


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Reply #62 on: December 03, 2008, 12:05:22 AM
Advance was basic. Rush, though it had some nice ideas, had a perfect collection of all the things that makes people angry; ambiguously designed puzzles, open-bottom levels, more rail BS, and since when did enemies have LIFEBARS and battle rooms?

I didn't really see much a problem with Rush, barring those open-bottom levels; those are annoying.  I didn't see a problem with the lifebars, heck, we all know Robotnik generally suffers from 8-hit syndrome.  I guess I am a little surprised that the final boss' health didn't exceed 8 points; in a lot of the older games, as well as Sonic Advance, final bosses generally had over 8 points of health.

As far as puzzles go, I don't really see much of a problem there either.  If any puzzle gave me problems, those rotating cylinders in Carnival Night Zone did.

Battle rooms weren't really a problem to me either; Sonic Rush's boss system was pretty original, and it was nice to see something different for a change.

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Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #63 on: December 03, 2008, 12:12:31 AM
I didn't really see much a problem with Rush, barring those open-bottom levels; those are annoying.  I didn't see a problem with the lifebars, heck, we all know Robotnik generally suffers from 8-hit syndrome.  I guess I am a little surprised that the final boss' health didn't exceed 8 points; in a lot of the older games, as well as Sonic Advance, final bosses generally had over 8 points of health.

As far as puzzles go, I don't really see much of a problem there either.  If any puzzle gave me problems, those rotating cylinders in Carnival Night Zone did.

Battle rooms weren't really a problem to me either; Sonic Rush's boss system was pretty original, and it was nice to see something different for a change.

Perhaps I should clarify:
I'm not talking about Boss Battles. Those, actually, weren't that bad, and made you think in moderate amounts. And yes, Robotnik's due to have so many hits.

I'm talking about when you'd be speeding along, and suddenly, you're enclosed in a room or trapped on a raft, and enemies are headed your way. Not hard, but there's nothing better at killing the game's pace than that. And again, enemies, regular enemies, with lifebars.

If you remember how collision damage works in principle, it's not hard to see where a Sonic game can really suffer.
Sonic "collides" with his enemy to damage them.
If they're still around, Sonic can't keep moving.
Seems basic, but recall Metropolis Zone in Sonic the Hedgehog 2. YEAH. THAT. Only it taunts you even more because you actually are damaging the enemy, but the game just, because it can, says you need to do it again.



Offline AquaTeamV3

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Reply #64 on: December 03, 2008, 12:23:12 AM
Oh, I see what you're talking about now.  The desert/ruins stage comes to mind, especially when you have to dodge those annoying rocks as well.  Not to mention those Sonic Heroes-style enemies that take 3 hits to kill.  Considering that Rush's style is high speed action, it really cripples the gameplay.

Sonic isn't the kind of game where you sit on a raft and kill enemies, especially when you bring Sonic's bad traction into play.  I always hated those segments that involved you carefully jumping across tiny platforms, because Sonic's control can be very slippery at times.

Quote
The stages that weren't Sonic and Shadow were so boring it made you want to cry.

I also agree with you here as well.  I actually preferred the story system of SA1 because of this.  I could simply play as Sonic w/o worrying about being smacked in the face with a Knuckles level.  Plus, playing as Tails was much more fun in SA1, SEGA should leave the shooting to Gamma (I actually enjoyed his stages).  I also wish Knuckles didn't get relegated to treasure hunting, because it'd be nice to play an action stage where you could simply go for a goal ring, etc.

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Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #65 on: December 03, 2008, 12:30:56 AM
Plus, playing as Tails was much more fun in SA1

Seconded like there's no tomorrow. Tails has always been fun to play as; I don't even mind being Tails as 2P in co-op plays, even if I can't always see myself.
I hated that I was limited to "Racing Sonic/Eggman" though. Look at him; Tails was made for exploring (no comments from the Palcomix/furry crowd).

...which reminds me, where was THAT feature in Sonic Rush/Adventure? The DS is good at that, y'know, especially in Wi-Fi.
Missed opportunity.



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Reply #66 on: December 03, 2008, 12:34:44 AM
The stages that weren't Sonic and Shadow were so boring it made you want to cry.

i disagree. SA2's real strength is its replayability. after beating the stories, you should be compelled to get A ranks, and then try to beat that score and/or time. Tails' and Eggman's stages were made for high score nuts, and they aren't all that slow, either. though Tails should never have been put in a mech in the first place. Cosmic Wall is the quintessential example of this. once you know more of the hiding spots, and get past Mad Space's horrible gravity, Knux and Rouge ain't terrible to play either.

I'm assuming they don't screw it up like Sonic Genesis. And it can be done; look at Kirby Superstar Ultra. In minor ways, it actually improved upon the original game while still maintaining proper aspect ratios, puzzle spacing, etc. Revenge of the King, while not impossibly hard, did force the player to think one step ahead or fall prey to the vulnerabilities of the provided powers matched up against a bevy of long-lasting enemies (Suplex and Parasol are king in this game).

If these new guys at Sonic Team don't work their way backwards, they're never going to figure out how it's all supposed to mesh.

Sega != HAL


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Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #67 on: December 03, 2008, 12:41:18 AM
i disagree. SA2's real strength is its replayability. after beating the stories, you should be compelled to get A ranks, and then try to beat that score and/or time. Tails' and Eggman's stages were made for high score nuts, and they aren't all that slow, either. though Tails should never have been put in a mech in the first place. Cosmic Wall is the quintessential example of this. once you know more of the hiding spots, and get past Mad Space's horrible gravity, Knux and Rouge ain't terrible to play either.

Sega != HAL

The Chao races should be completely optional, and Green Hill Zone remade is not enough of an incentive to nitpick perform at goals the player might not even really want to do, especially when it requires playing a stage...what was it...6 times? That's minimum. That's IF you can do whatever they tell you to the first time.
Actually, those Meteor stages were really fun. Super Mario Galaxy before it happened, I say (good thing it was Knuckles and Rouge, though; Sonic and Shadow move too fast for that mechanic to be enjoyable).

...okay, true, but I still say that since the stage layout and enemy placement is already done for the new programmers and directing team, it shouldn't be too much of a stretch.
...yes, I know, Sonic Genesis.



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Reply #68 on: December 03, 2008, 12:50:16 AM
I hated that I was limited to "Racing Sonic/Eggman" though.
...which reminds me, where was THAT feature in Sonic Rush/Adventure? The DS is good at that, y'know, especially in Wi-Fi.
Missed opportunity.

Yeah, it would've been cool it you could actually have the ability to roam freely w/o the threat of Sonic/Eggman.  Having the co-op feature in Sonic Rush would've been epic.  Doing it with Cream/Blaze would've been cool in it's own right.  I do find it interesting that that feature was in SA1 in the first place; it's pretty hard to keep up, but still cool regardless.  Of course, KSS/KSSU/KDL3's co-op blows Sonic's out of the water entirely...

SA2's real strength is its replayability. after beating the stories, you should be compelled to get A ranks, and then try to beat that score and/or time. Tails' and Eggman's stages were made for high score nuts, and they aren't all that slow, either. though Tails should never have been put in a mech in the first place. Cosmic Wall is the quintessential example of this. once you know more of the hiding spots, and get past Mad Space's horrible gravity, Knux and Rouge ain't terrible to play either.

They weren't really horrible to play, but in story mode, it's rather irritating to have to switch characters on and off like that.  A-Ranks were nice, although I found SADX's mission mode quite entertaining.

Quote
The Chao races should be completely optional, and Green Hill Zone remade is not enough of an incentive to nitpick perform at goals the player might not even really want to do, especially when it requires playing a stage...what was it...6 times? That's minimum. That's IF you can do whatever they tell you to the first time.

The Chao system definitely needs to return, although the emblems should be optional.  I never did unlock GHZ, partially due to my memory card's death.  The only think I got all A-Ranks on were Sonic's missions, and you simply get those broken 2P costumes.

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Offline VixyNyan

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Reply #69 on: December 03, 2008, 12:50:44 AM
*goes to find her review of it*

I found it...

Sonic Genesis (GBA)

Quote
OK, I am very offended by this!!

It turns out Sega/Sonic Team gave the rights of re-releasing this sacred gem to someone with inexperience on proper optimized game control. Why they didn't just stick with a simple port of the original game and just adding extra features from there is beyond me... Someone out there somewhere could have made something a hell of a lot more accurate. Or they could have just done with sticking Sonic 1 levels in Sonic Advance. Sonic Jam had a simple port with the Spin Dash added, and a fun little Time Attack mode to accompany it. That was pretty neat. The game in Sonic Mega Collection was the original ROM, but they could have simply used that one for the GBA if they so had the time for it. Speaking of features, I see no reason of even having a Anniversary Mode in there if it doesn't bring you anything new worth playing for.

The music is not even the original Mega Drive music resampled for the GBA. No, it's downgraded MIDI samples borrowed from the internet. The only decent thing this game has is the porting of the stages, but that alone doesn't bring our Sonic 1 any justice. The Special Stage is practically uncontrollable as well, and it feels like the surroundings are sucking Sonic into their grasps, not letting him do any significant moves, like breaking through to get the Chaos Emerald. Heck, it even says Presented by Sega, created by Sonic Team... And the original ending sequence was poorly duplicated, including only the names of the original team.

If a port of Sonic 1 doesn't even let you get under 30 seconds on Green Hill Zone Act 1, it's not worth playing. >w<

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Offline Satoryu

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Reply #70 on: December 03, 2008, 12:57:12 AM
oh i hate Chao. i got tired of those little shits real quick. time i want back desperately. i copied a GameSharked-save file to get Green Hill.

the other thing with remaking the Genesis games is that the originals have already been ported to every video game medium already, and are still being put into compilations. there's no need to do anything with them. you know, like how it was completely unnecessary to remake FFIV on DS.

CD doesn't apply to this situation, yes, but i know plenty of people would raid Sega if they altered anything in that game.


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Reply #71 on: December 03, 2008, 07:55:18 AM
Meh, the Chao.  When my brother let me play around with SA2 (I think), he specifically said to have fun abusing the Chao.  And abuse it I did.  Drop-kicked that bugger off a cliff and made it cry.


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Reply #72 on: December 03, 2008, 10:32:03 AM
oh i hate Chao. i got tired of those little shits real quick. time i want back desperately. i copied a GameSharked-save file to get Green Hill.

the other thing with remaking the Genesis games is that the originals have already been ported to every video game medium already, and are still being put into compilations. there's no need to do anything with them. you know, like how it was completely unnecessary to remake everything Square has shat out in the past 20+ years.

CD doesn't apply to this situation, yes, but i know plenty of people would raid Sega if they altered anything in that game.
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Reply #74 on: December 03, 2008, 11:51:12 AM
Me too.

Hrm, y'know the Chao in Sonic Advance?  I wanted to drop its TV into the pond then put the Chao in it to watch it fry.  I was so damn sadistic with those defenseless lil buggers.  Kicked 'em, threw 'em, dropped 'em off cliffs...  I think it was the Chao and overall change from 2-D goodness to 3-D meh that drove me away from the Sonic series for a while.  Though, Sonic Shuffle lured me back.  I swear though, that game brought out the absolute WORST in my brother and I.  He played as Tails and I played as Knuckles and half the time, we were flipping off the TV and saying "[tornado fang] you, Sonic!  [tornado fang] you up the ass like a man!"  And yet we loved the game.