Topic: Why we can't have a Sonic game with nothing but speed...

[Protoman Blues]

In PB's Opinion, a 3-Hour Day Stage Unleashed Game would sell more copies that the current one.  I'm not sure, but I think they could add in the removed stages from the PS2 and Wii version if they took out all the Night stages.

[STM]

They don't need to. Remember, the 360 uses the same type of disc as the PS2 and Wii. Some think Mazuri Day and all of Empire City were cut out due to DiMPS being rushed, given the general oblong nature of the game compared to its HD brothers.

[Quickman]

I still find the whole Werehog concept utterly retarded.  Like published fanon from the Archie series thrown in a game and taken to a whole new facepalming level.

[Protoman Blues]

They don't need to. Remember, the 360 uses the same type of disc as the PS2 and Wii. Some think Mazuri Day and all of Empire City were cut out due to DiMPS being rushed, given the general oblong nature of the game compared to its HD brothers.

Hmmm, well that just sucks then! 

[Jericho]

Sad, but this is one of the only times where the Wii loses out imo. Ah well, more Day Stage goodness please Sonic Team. Going up from this point isn't a hard task especially since the Werehog is an Unleashed only mechanic.

[STM]

Story wise, it's not coming back. Gameplay wise?

...Well, it'd be nice to make Knuckles awesome again with his own unique moveset. Granted, some people think Knuckles playing like Fighter Kirby would be a lot more awesome.

[Quickman]

Sad, but this is one of the only times where the Wii loses out imo. Ah well, more Day Stage goodness please Sonic Team. Going up from this point isn't a hard task especially since the Werehog is an Unleashed only mechanic.

Wait until it finds its way into the comic series...

[Jericho]

Granted, some people think Knuckles playing like Fighter Kirby would be a lot more awesome.

I never thought of this, but now I do. And I want.

Also, Ristar 2.

Posted on: December 01, 2008, 01:18:10 AM

Wait until it finds its way into the comic series...

Didn't it already have like a short adaptation in a comic series recently? It was supposed to be a promotion for the game.

[Quickman]

Seeing as how I haven't read the comic in a long time since Ken Penders started taking over the writing duties...  Though, I think at one point, in some earlier issue, Sonic did become a werehog.  It is very, very likely, knowing how that comic was. 

[Satoryu]

the more you want it, the more Sega won't listen to you.

[Wanda Bear]

Seeing as how I haven't read the comic in a long time since Ken Penders started taking over the writing duties...  Though, I think at one point, in some earlier issue, Sonic did become a werehog. 

Nope, never did. Then again, When he met Zonic in the "Sideways Zone" there many different version of Sonic on the screens. Maybe werehog was one of them and thats "were" Sega got him.

[Hypershell]

Seriously...what the [tornado fang]. Considering how short the early Sonic games were, would anybody mind a three hour game? I most certainly don't.

I sure wouldn't.  Hell, half the games this community revolves around are easily cleared in under 3 hours.  If it's fun to play, it's fun to replay.  Just look at Sonic Rush.

For that matter, applying elements from the S3&K and Advanced formulas to a 3D game would work wonders.  Go ahead, give us a 3 hour game, and give us 3 or 4 characters to play through it as.  With different abilities, but not so different as to require entirely new stages, though a select few branching paths might not be a bad idea.  Could also take a page out of Adventure's book and change around a few bosses (final in particular) for each character.

I think the character selection is what's killing them, and in a way, the were-hog is just as guilty as the likes of Silver, or Tails' freaking mecha.  In Rush, Blaze kind of fails to differentiate herself from Sonic in terms of her abilities.  She has different effects, but besides hovering, yields largely the same results.  This likewise applies between the different teams in Heroes.  But in most other games we have the opposite problem, the characters are so far removed from Sonic that they no longer fit the same formula.  This worked to some extent in Adventure, but they overdosed afterwards and people got tired of it.

Besides we all know what bloating tends to do to otherwise solid games (see Twilight Princess).

Since when is Twilight Princess bloated?  At least it didn't plague us with a mundane Triforce hunt that the game developers themselves apologized for.

I still find the whole Werehog concept utterly retarded.  Like published fanon from the Archie series thrown in a game and taken to a whole new facepalming level.

I find it retarded for a reason irrelevant to gameplay.  We already have a strong, cumbersome, stretchy Sonic character, his name is Chaos.  So what the heck do we need the were-hog for?

[STM]

Plot device with Dark Gaia.

[HyperSonicEXE]

Once again, lemme pull my GAF post:

Says who?! Remember, the early Sonic games gave you bonuses for beating stages in under 30 seconds! They don't have to be 5 minute epics, in fact, the levels are worse that way! Yes, Sonic games are brief, but it was their replay value that made them what they were! You actually WANTED to go back to Green Hill Zone and try to beat your old time by exploring for new routes.

I would have also accepted the answer, "Well, another key aspect to the old Sonic games was tried-and-true platforming, see Marble Zone, Chemical Plant Zone, Carnival Night Zone, and Quartz Quadrant Zone."

Look back at the Genesis games; the stages were only long if you lacked moderate skill. There were 2 or 3 routes through the same distance, and I'm hoping that's something that has been done in Unleashed.

There is no reason, no need, for the Werehog. Not even for the sake of platforming, which has been handled very well by the player provided there was plenty of visibility and the Gimmicks weren't vague (Sonic Rush, Sonic Heroes, I'm looking you square in the face).

I understand that creating long stages in 3D isn't financially responsible. Time to go to 2D.

Also, play the Genesis games, and you'll notice something:
There's no way Sonic is maintaining the insane amounts of speed that he's doing in Unleashed.
The Genesis games are snail's pace compared to this game, and I think if the level maps were put side-by-side, it'd definitely show. Which is better? I'd say Genesis, considering that it also allowed careful manipulation of Sonic's jumps for tricky platforming.

And now, let me add to it:
Remember how Sonic CD unlocked secrets by the Time Attack? Remove Ranks, make the goals a little more manageable so that the majority of people could have these bonuses, and ta-da.

[Pringer X]

...Well, it'd be nice to make Knuckles awesome again with his own unique moveset. Granted, some people think Knuckles playing like Fighter Kirby would be a lot more awesome.

Epic want 

I haven't played Unleashed, but it sounds like it's by far the best Sonic game to come out since the end of the Adventure series (as far as the Console series is concerned). I was planning on renting it for the 360 and then go from there. I AM a bit sketchy about it, since most people raved about Chronicles while I utterly HATE that game, so I'm really going to watch out for whatever on Unleashed.

[STM]

Just know the people who raved about Chronicles were either really stupid Sonic fans (there are the rare few smart ones!) or BioWare fanboys who love nothing but their D in their mouth. Most of the people I saw who bought the game said they bought it just because BioWare made it.

[Protoman Blues]

Just know the people who raved about Chronicles were either really stupid Sonic fans (there are the rare few smart ones!) or BioWare fanboys who love nothing but their D in their mouth.

LoL, DAMN!   

[Hypershell]

Also, play the Genesis games, and you'll notice something:
There's no way Sonic is maintaining the insane amounts of speed that he's doing in Unleashed.
The Genesis games are snail's pace compared to this game, and I think if the level maps were put side-by-side, it'd definitely show. Which is better? I'd say Genesis, considering that it also allowed careful manipulation of Sonic's jumps for tricky platforming.

This is very true.  Blazing through at breakneck speeds is always fun, but Sonic's seen his fair share of well made platforming jumps as well, and that's something a lot of people forget.  That's yet another aspect that I feel the Adventures utilized successfully while later games lost it.

For an ideal example of a mix between the two, we can look at my favorite SA2 stage, Final Rush.  Rails are often thought of as a "game plays itself" thing, but they are utilized here outstandingly well, with lots of timed and precision jumps and alternate paths.  In addition there are quite a few platform-jumping segments, tricky to time/position at first but easily blazed through after you learn the layout.  Multiple paths abound, and there are some nice shortcut opportunities.  Pulling that last-second jump on the vertical rail is satisfying indeed.  The level is platforming gold.

[STM]

LoL, DAMN!   

It's the truth. I played this game to see if all the hype it was getting was justified. What I got was a sloppy, horribly done RPG with an awful battle system, bad sound effects and music (with quite a few tracks being ripped off the Internet apparently... more on that later,) all constricting an otherwise brilliant but poorly utilized dialog tree. I swear, I loved the dialog, but I hated how it didn't branch in Mass Effect style. It'd be nice if the story changed as you played depending on your choices but as it stood, it barely did that. It only added things as you got more characters, like Omega.

[Quickman]

Earlier today, my brother and I were discussing what made the classic Sonic games great, and it was the combination of platforming and speed.  Then, we watched some YouTube videos of Sonic Xtreme levels.  Oh.  My.  God.  GORGEOUS.  The perfect combination of 3D and 2D, with speed and platforming.  And a weird fish-eye lens.  Then, my brother read something about the Sonic Unleashed Daytime levels being a throwback to the Sonic Xtreme engine, and decided that's what makes the Daytime levels rule.

Now all we need is for Sega to just release Sonic Xtreme (if I recall, it was never released...), or just make more Sonic games with the same or similar engine.  And no Werehog.  But that would only happen in a utopia, and utopias don't exist, so we'll never see that, ever.  So, instead we're gonna see what we can do with that BlitzBasic Sonic game engine...

[CephiYumi]

Now all we need is for Sega to just release Sonic Xtreme (if I recall, it was never released...)

yeah it got cancelled and it basically became Sonic 3D Blast ^^;

[STM]

No. 3D Blast was developed by Traveller's Tales in Britain. Sonic Xtreme was developed by Sega Technical Institute as the flagship title for the series on the Saturn. However, it was marred with problems due to deadlines, constant changing of ideas and quite a bit of resistance from Sega of Japan. The team wanted to use the NiGHTS engine. However, Yuji Naka threw a fit and basically told them to [acid burst] off, meaning they had to code a new one up by themselves. It got abysmal reviews at E3 1996 before ultimately being canned. Sonic 3D Blast, meanwhile, was set to be Genesis only. However, since it was pretty apparent that Sonic wouldn't have a flagship title on the Saturn, it was ported over and enhanced with different CD quality music, a new Special Stage (considered to be the spiritual son of Sonic 2's stages), and some new special effects, like fog and rain in Rusty Ruin.

tl;dr: Sonic Xtreme was canned because it was crap. There's an old tech demo leaked by AssemblerGames floating around for those that want to give it a shot. It looked nice on paper, but it played horribly.

[Quickman]

Hrm, perhaps if the controls were messed with a bit.  From what I saw, it looked nice.  At least full sprite sheets are floating around that I can use to finish off that Quickman sprite sheet I had started on a few years back...

Sonic 3D Blast was... meh.  It just lacked that Sonic feel. 

[Jericho]

You know what I find funny thinking about Sonic in 3D? How is it that other SEGA franchises & developed games (Jet Set Radio / Jet Set Radio Future, Sonic R, F-Zero GX*) and a few other games (Trackmania, Mirror's Edge & Super Mario Galaxy* for example) have managed to incorporate elements of what made Sonic so great in 2D and left a positive mark on many gamers minds? The truth is that it isn't engines, limitations or anything technical really. It's all about Sonic Team being too lazy to try and be more creative when it comes to truly translating Sonic into 3D. Things look like they are shifting for the better (not necessarily the best) though with the new Unleashed team and the Hedgehog Engine, but when you hear things like "Sonic is all about speed" only to hear later that games can't fully consist of that sense of speed because of the limitations involving Sonic moving so fast, you have to wonder why no one's re-evaluating things as a whole with the franchise.

Also fun fact: Sonic Unleashed shares a lot more in common with Sonic R & the Saturn 3D Blast special stage design due to the fact that the programmers in charge of both of those games worked with Yoshihisa Hashimoto (big guy behind Unleashed and a programmer for elements of the Sonic Adventure games) to create the game.

*Italicized for delicious Nintendo does what SEGA didn't irony.

Anyone who thinks I don't have a part of myself reserved for SEGA, I bequeath to them, a boot to the head.

Also, I demand that everyone here play through the demo for Sonic eXtended Genesis (XG) just because it's relevant to any Sonic fan's interests. While you do his, compare the amount of ideas there to some of those found in recent games. You can be sure that the difference in caliber is nothing short of "wow"-inducing. This isn't to compare 2D to 3D by the way, it's to show he vast difference in ideas and direction that the newer games and older style have.

[HyperSonicEXE]

Remember, at the time people were asking for speed-based gameplay, we had just gotten done with Sonic Adventure 1 (which had some okay levels) and Sonic Adventure 2 (which was both glitchy and slow, saddling the player with more Emerald hunting and mech-shooting).

After that, games were a mixed bag, attempting to find what the players wanted. Sonic Advance 1 was balanced, 2 was almost all speed, 3 was heavy on the platforming. At that point, Sonic Rush and Heroes were made, and they might've been fine, except for gimmicky extra characters and poor stage construction marred with obscene, unprecedented amounts of open-bottom design.

Desperate to do something to boost their reputation, they poll the fans. The result? Shadow the Hedgehog. Again, execution on a brand new guns-n-ammo system was poor on top of a very rushed scenery and awful plot scheme. When that failed, they teased and promoted a game that would go back to being Sonic, but ultimately didn't and was once again poorly executed.

Now, it's the transition phase. Now the teams are flustered and frustrated. Now a mass of confusing input that can't be sorted out unless the fans were somehow in on the development process drives performance-minded managers to frustration, and now the teams are just doing what they want. They're a lower quality Square-Enix, now. You didn't want a Werehog? Too bad. You didn't want happy fun time storybook land? Too bad.

2 ways to go from here:
1) The death of the company resulting from poor sales combined with an ailing economy and rampant piracy,
or
2) Eliminate polled consumer input, and undertake an overhauling of basic principles to more closely match the games that are respected and sold well (S1, S2, S3&K, SAdve1, SAdva1). This may require remaking Sonic 2 or Sonic 3 & Knuckles so that the newer employees understand how to design the game correctly.

I can't say Sonic Unleashed was absolutely a step in the right direction, but compared to what they've been doing, it is.