Topic: Mega Man Unlimited

[Gaia]

Plus with the warning-less Yoku Blocks in the WS games, it can be a total nightmare. Total unpredictability I say! *ahem* Well, that explains it. I'm pretty sure lasers will follow mid-section of Yoku Man's stage, to make it more murderous.

[Lilirulu]

Well, I know NOTHING of the 8Bit limitations so I'm not gonna bother critiquing you on it. I'm not a professional, but you botched the perspective on some of the building, the Skyscraper (by the straight pipe) it bending in the wrong direction, its straighter than the other buildings, and that is not good.
And the Line work seems messy in some places.

[Yoku Man]

Here's a simple example to show how things have changed for Yoku Blocks during the years.

In Mega Man 2, the blocks appeared via proximity and in no particular timed pattern. But when they remade this puzzle in MM9's Endless Attack, they gave it the new patterns of 4. They keep to the same looping rhythm, always keeping to the pattern on and off screen. So a block in pattern 2 will always appear at the start and else where off screen at the exact same time, and so forth.

[Zan]

Are you trying to tell me I'm not a perfectionist?
You think that after working like crazy for at least a year and a half on this project making graphics, music all that stuff in my free time, that I don't have a profound respect for those that were making games back then!? Wow...

Must you view it so negatively? I did not mention either your current level of perfectionism or respect. I only spoke of a certain level of perfectionism higher than you already might be working at, and I spoke of deepening any respect of classic gaming you might already have. Simply noting there's an unexplored area you're missing out on.

As I see it, you're right now disregarding the 'technical' limits without having a wholly clear idea of what those technical limits are. Just do a bit more research on the matter, think about the problems associated with classical game designs, think about possibilities and impossibilities and ways to work around that. And then, knowing how things are supposed to work, you can truly make the conscious decision of disregarding it or not for the sake of even better balancing quality and quantity. After all, it just seems odd to go through great lengths to figure out Capcom's disappearing block logistics and then to not wholly indulge yourself in the logistics behind the graphics of Ninendo's console.

[N-Mario]

Well..... Seems like there's been a lot more complaints & critics about the new city design. It's either this, or the OLDer old city picture that was used in the flash video only version of MegaMan Unlimited. Or we could just rip off Capcom and use their MM9 City background. Actually, I'm kidding about doing that, but case in point. Artwork is artwork, and I think Phil did a nice job on it, despite some of the angles of the buildings that may be off. XP
Unelss Phil can adjust some of the proportions of the buildings, but I think hes worked hard enough on it.

[Zan]

Just like, take comments and critique to heart, push those pixels and take advantage of how easily the medium can be edited. Part of the essence of being a pixel artist is right there; tweaking till its perfect.

[Yoku Man]

I recommend we wait till theres a playable beta for fans to properly nitpick before we alter anything at present. I understand Phil's reasons, but I bet he'd agree to wait till all the hard work is over and the games finished before we correct any minor graphical and other mistakes.

I'm more serious about disappearing block logistics because its my own pet project for this fangame and I have more time (I only have to design one level). Phil has got an entire game to design, let him worry about everything else first. The sooner a beta can be released, the better.

Can we change the subject to something less argumentative now? I hate to see threads get like this.

[MegaPhilX]

Believe me, if I would have adapted to every single comment people make and the little quirks of everyone; I would have gone insane by now. We already went over that whole limitation thing thousands of times before and I don't really feel like arguing about this right now either. That being said, I'm going to keep the current city picture. And I like your research on the blocks, Stars. we can have patterns of 5 or 3 blocks too. As long as the whole stage doesn't work like it did in MM2 like you said. I can't wait to stage your stage designed.

[DjKlzonez]

Hey Phil, in percentage, how is the project now?
91% or something?

[Gatuca]

Must you view it so negatively? I did not mention either your current level of perfectionism or respect. I only spoke of a certain level of perfectionism higher than you already might be working at, and I spoke of deepening any respect of classic gaming you might already have. Simply noting there's an unexplored area you're missing out on.

As I see it, you're right now disregarding the 'technical' limits without having a wholly clear idea of what those technical limits are. Just do a bit more research on the matter, think about the problems associated with classical game designs, think about possibilities and impossibilities and ways to work around that. And then, knowing how things are supposed to work, you can truly make the conscious decision of disregarding it or not for the sake of even better balancing quality and quantity. After all, it just seems odd to go through great lengths to figure out Capcom's disappearing block logistics and then to not wholly indulge yourself in the logistics behind the graphics of Ninendo's console.

dang it Zan, do you know how much Phil has been put of his heart into this project?

please give the guys a break and freedoom

[N-Mario]

In terms of art finished? Id say about that.
But in terms of programming, we still have to work on that. The programming is only about 50% something. Though I've been meaning to fix the engine so the debug stage is only one level with all the programming added. Then we would be able to rebuild the stages up from that. It's mainly due to MMF2's weird way of handling stages via storyboard frames. But that's about as closest I can put it. :-/

[OBJECTION MAN]

I recommend we wait till theres a playable beta for fans to properly nitpick before we alter anything at present.

These limits intricately effect the design of the game itself. By then, having levels and bosses done, it may be a little late to go and correct 'minor graphical mistakes'. Its best to design with these things in mind first. If not addressed early on, you're not going to really be able to fix it. Game design 101.

Personally if I put my blood sweat and tears into it, I'd make damn well sure its done right. Though, it's not my project and I guess I cant enforce quality where its not a concern. I just wish more fan games would take better care to being high quality. With as much dedication as Phil says he has, I just figured this project would have one of the highest chances of doing something really high quality. I mean, he said hes actually made games in the industry before, right? Shouldn't that alone predispose him to want that?

[commandycan]

These limits intricately effect the design of the game itself. By then, having levels and bosses done, it may be a little late to go and correct 'minor graphical mistakes'. Its best to design with these things in mind first. If not addressed early on, you're not going to really be able to fix it. Game design 101.

I'm not sure I understand this. Why isn't this possible, exactly? Companies release open betas all of the time, so that players can present problems and have the developers fix them before the game is on the shelves. Even if this isn't a retail game, what makes this one any different?

Personally if I put my blood sweat and tears into it, I'd make damn well sure its done right. Though, it's not my project and I guess I cant enforce quality where its not a concern. I just wish more fan games would take better care to being high quality. With as much dedication as Phil says he has, I just figured this project would have one of the highest chances of doing something really high quality. I mean, he said hes actually made games in the industry before, right? Shouldn't that alone predispose him to want that?

Let me give you a situation. A Mega Man game represented as an 8-bit game is released, and everything is feasible within NES/Famicom limitations, except for the sounds. In some instances, there's 2 noise channels, 3 square channels, tempos that aren't technically possible (on the NES, at least), you get the idea. Despite these flaws, the game is accepted by just about everyone. (Oh, by the way, the game is Mega Man 10)

The point being, there's not much of a reason to sustain a notably large amount of effort on something so specific as stray colors. Sure, the kind of people who play Mega Man Unlimited will be much more centralized than the kind of people playing 9 or 10, but most of the players will not notice the faults in the coloring, some will notice them and probably not care, and only a select few will actually be bothered by them.

[OBJECTION MAN]

I'm not sure I understand this. Why isn't this possible, exactly? Companies release open betas all of the time, so that players can present problems and have the developers fix them before the game is on the shelves. Even if this isn't a retail game, what makes this one any different?

Imposing the limits after the fact wont work out well at all. The game needs to be designed with these in mind to begin with. Even the way things are already, there would actually be a fair amount of redesign and refitting involved.

The point being, there's not much of a reason to sustain a notably large amount of effort on something so specific as stray colors. Sure, the kind of people who play Mega Man Unlimited will be much more centralized than the kind of people playing 9 or 10, but most of the players will not notice the faults in the coloring, some will notice them and probably not care, and only a select few will actually be bothered by them.

Megaman 10 at least makes it believable. And no, both 9 and 10 actually have rare moments of graphical infeasibility on NES hardware. The point I made is that this project isn't even close to believable in many instances.

[Mirby]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Haters gonna hate.

[commandycan]

Imposing the limits after the fact wont work out well at all. The game needs to be designed with these in mind to begin with. Even the way things are already, there would actually be a fair amount of redesign and refitting involved.

I still don't fully understand what you mean, but you probably have more experience in this than I do so I'll just say you're right and leave it as it is.

Megaman 10 at least makes it believable. And no, both 9 and 10 actually have rare moments of graphical infeasibility on NES hardware. The point I made is that this project isn't even close to believable in many instances.

By no means does Mega Man 10 make the problems I mentioned "believable." If you know how the 2A03 chip is supposed to work and you hear these sounds, they stick out like a sore thumb. How is this any different than the problems you are imposing?

[MegaPhilX]

Let me give you a situation. A Mega Man game represented as an 8-bit game is released, and everything is feasible within NES/Famicom limitations, except for the sounds. In some instances, there's 2 noise channels, 3 square channels, tempos that aren't technically possible (on the NES, at least), you get the idea. Despite these flaws, the game is accepted by just about everyone. (Oh, by the way, the game is Mega Man 10)

The point being, there's not much of a reason to sustain a notably large amount of effort on something so specific as stray colors. Sure, the kind of people who play Mega Man Unlimited will be much more centralized than the kind of people playing 9 or 10, but most of the players will not notice the faults in the coloring, some will notice them and probably not care, and only a select few will actually be bothered by them.

Thank you, commandycan.

Posted on: June 22, 2010, 12:03:19

dang it Zan, do you know how much Phil has been put of his heart into this project?

please give the guys a break and freedoom

Thanks you, Gatuca.

[OBJECTION MAN]

It's different cause I'm not talking about sound. Can't say I know enough about the sound system though. If you're correct, then that's definitely something to add to the list, but I haven't personally noticed despite playing tons of NES games. The main problem lay in that, as I said before, the severity of this inconsistency is to where people who are not really aware of the limits of the NES graphical chip seem to notice.

In an attempt to not look like the biggest douche taking a crap all over this thread for 20 pages (already got that label though I imagine), maybe we should move the Megaman 9/10 picking apart to another thread or PM? I actually would like to hear more about this sound chip stuff. Perhaps a new thread about 9 and 10's inaccuracies?

[commandycan]

Now we're getting somewhere. The argument's been going in circles for quite some time, so it's nice to see some willingness for that to stop.

If you want, you can make a thread about the inaccuracies in 9/10, and I'll tell you more about it there.

Oh, and you're welcome, Phil.

[Mirby]

No offense, RDW, but to me, you're right in assuming you got that label. Phil expressed how he poured all this effort into the project, and you did nothing but crap all over it, acting like it was all done for you and it wasn't good enough. At least Zan was showing that all he meant was there was still a higher level of perfection Phil could achieve, but he didn't need to. All you've done is [sonic slicer] about how it's not NES enough, and by not adhering to the limitations it's automatically [parasitic bomb].

There, I've said my part.

Phil, this is one of the best Rockman fangames I've seen in a while, and your effort is highly apparent. Who the hell cares if you're slightly out of true NES limitations; your game, your choice. We're just the audience; unless you ask us, we really have no say in the matter. ^_^

[OBJECTION MAN]

No offense, RDW, but to me, you're right in assuming you got that label.

Haha, that seems to happen a lot.

At least Zan was showing that all he meant was there was still a higher level of perfection Phil could achieve

I'm trying to say in a sense what Zan did, but I never can get that same neutral and nice way about it. Don't miss the fact that I said it seems like there is potential for the team to actually achieve this higher quality. If I was just trying to be a jerk wouldn't I have said that this project is really crap and the dev's have no hope to fix it? It just saddens me to see potential go to waste, more so than just a crap project.

[Mirby]

I understand you weren't trying to be a jerk, but the way you worded things made it come off that way.

And if you did mean it, I'd revoke your display name and you'd go back to being normal powerless RDW.

[Gatuca]

No offense, RDW, but to me, you're right in assuming you got that label. Phil expressed how he poured all this effort into the project, and you did nothing but crap all over it, acting like it was all done for you and it wasn't good enough. At least Zan was showing that all he meant was there was still a higher level of perfection Phil could achieve, but he didn't need to. All you've done is [sonic slicer] about how it's not NES enough, and by not adhering to the limitations it's automatically [parasitic bomb].

There, I've said my part.

Phil, this is one of the best Rockman fangames I've seen in a while, and your effort is highly apparent. Who the hell cares if you're slightly out of true NES limitations; your game, your choice. We're just the audience; unless you ask us, we really have no say in the matter. ^_^

Amen, Lady, Amen

[MegaPhilX]

Thanks Talyn!

[Yoku Man]

One thing that would sadden both me and Objection Man is, if/when the 8 bit limitations are fixed for MMU, it won't be fixed for the engine as a whole, if we go ahead and perfect MMU when its complete and impose all 8 bit limitation requirements, that doesn't mean they'll be set in stone.

Our greatest hope is for MMU to be the template for the Mega Man Engine on MMF2. But the way the engine is set out, all the colours and limitations are purely at the mercy of the spriter and programmer, when others start making their own fangame from the engine, it'll be up to them and their knowledge whether the other games will keep to the same 8 bit limitations. I fear many will not. Tragic really.

But these are fangames, and we can all agree that mm10 and mm9 have jumped the shark a tinsy bit with their limitations. I guess the fangame community will have the freedom to do the same. Some fans will want to try something different, and not obeying the limitations is one way of doing that.

Not to take sides, but it appears that Mega Man Unlimited is becoming an icon for the fangame community, something for the others to look up to, I would assume with that in mind, when all is said and done, it might be required to fix and perfect anything that goes beyond the limitations, to help make MMU the perfect example for an "8-Bit" template of a Mega Man game. But I leave that in Phil's hands. Let him continue with what he is doing for now.