Topic: Mega Man Unlimited

[KudosForce]

Wait a minute...I just realized something.

On those screenshots that YM posted, the bosses' health bars are on the wrong side of the screen! That should be fixed, yes.

[Yoku Man]

Wait a minute...I just realized something.

On those screenshots that YM posted, the bosses' health bars are on the wrong side of the screen! That should be fixed, yes.

Umm, I don't think so...



Though to be fair, the boss health bars has changed around from left to right alot throughout the game series. In mm10 it was on the left with Mega Man's.

[Mirby]

It was in later series where the boss bars were on the opposite side.

[Zan]

Slopes has nothing to do with a style, man.

It has everything to do with the Rockman gameplay style actually. Much like the Rockman series has always opted to have a 16x16 based environment. It is such things that create the run and jump gameplay we all know and love. Slopes, unless kept to a bare minimum, hurt an aspect of interaction by allowing vertical transitions to be crossed by simply holding right all the time. The exact opposite of using an 8x8 based environment, which would warrant too much jumping if abused.

All in all, such "gimmicks" are best kept in moderation. And in the specific context of slopes, I think going instead with 30 degree angles rather 45 degrees would look much more natural. An incline of 45 degree just seems too steep without a character just sliding off by the power of gravity.

I wonder if they were aware that they could do them.

Considering the very existence of the Legend of Zelda, of course they were aware.

3D enemy like in Mega Man X2 and X3

Just sprite a wireframe and keep its size moderate. Should be entirely doable. Just not in the same way they did it on SNES.

[KoiDrake]

It has everything to do with the Rockman gameplay style actually. Much like the Rockman series has always opted to have a 16x16 based environment. It is such things that create the run and jump gameplay we all know and love. Slopes, unless kept to a bare minimum, hurt an aspect of interaction by allowing vertical transitions to be crossed by simply holding right all the time. The exact opposite of using an 8x8 based environment, which would warrant too much jumping if abused.

I still don´t think it´s something that would break the style that much. As you mentioned, it´s just a gimmick, and it would work out really well if, as you said, it´s not abused. But they can still be used without going like "wtf is this doing in a megaman game" or something like that. That´s what I mean with slopes not being a gameplay style factor.

About the sliding, I thought that was the whole point of adding slopes in the first place. If that´s not their function, then I don´t know why they bother adding them.

[Yoku Man]

I wish I could show you a video of Glue Man using the slopes to ease your fears guys. But alas, I'm not allowed lol, I guess you'll either have to wait for the demo or a trailer or maybe even the full game before you see Glue Man in action. We're still not sure what levels we'd feature in the demo, I guess it'd be the 3 ones we've already shown in videos: Tank, Nail and Rainbow Man's stages.

[OBJECTION MAN]

It has everything to do with the Rockman gameplay style actually. Much like the Rockman series has always opted to have a 16x16 based environment. It is such things that create the run and jump gameplay we all know and love. Slopes, unless kept to a bare minimum, hurt an aspect of interaction by allowing vertical transitions to be crossed by simply holding right all the time. The exact opposite of using an 8x8 based environment, which would warrant too much jumping if abused.

All in all, such "gimmicks" are best kept in moderation. And in the specific context of slopes, I think going instead with 30 degree angles rather 45 degrees would look much more natural. An incline of 45 degree just seems too steep without a character just sliding off by the power of gravity.

Considering the very existence of the Legend of Zelda, of course they were aware.

Just sprite a wireframe and keep its size moderate. Should be entirely doable. Just not in the same way they did it on SNES.

Agreed on all counts. You sir understand what Megaman is.

[Mirby]

Well he knows just about everything about the series, so I'm not surprised...

[KoiDrake]

That´s because he sees the slopes as if they had no purpose, which shouldn´t be the case. Rockman MI gives a good example of them being fitting with the Megaman gameplay style and without looking out of place.

[OBJECTION MAN]

Well he knows just about everything about the series, so I'm not surprised...

And yet no one seems to listen to him when he speaks. Like when talking about NES limitations in the MMTT thread;

Me: That's not possible on NES!
MexicanSunflower: What are the limit guidelines then?
Zan: *explains them*
MexicanSunflower: WHO CARES?!

That baffles me.

[Mirby]

Yeah... I listen to him! That counts, right?

[KoiDrake]

I don´t respond to the person posting but to the post itself. He may know a lot of spriting or whatever you thing, but in this case he just gave an opinion I don´t agree with, and is just imposing weird limitations to the game. He just sees slopes as another way to make different paths without any kind of function on them. But slopes should be threated as any other obstacle, and if designed properly, they work a lot better than simple squared tiles.

Here is Rockman MI´s Toadman stage for example, you can see that the slopes work really nicely in here, especially in the first part with the water pushing you downwards, it gives something that with normal square tiles would look extremely awkward. They definitely don´t look out of place at all.

And there are also many more things that wouldn´t be able to be done without slopes, both in the artistic look and the challenge it brings. So, to sum it up I don´t think that they affect at all the gameplay style and feel of the megaman games, they are just a simple little things that helps spice things up if used properly.

[Mirby]

It's not the poster that counts, even though he may be quite knowledgeable. But when you ask for something, get the proper response, and decide to ignore it completely, that's kinda rude. I think that's what Objection Man was trying to say. If you're going to ask for help, at least take some of it; don't ignore it completely because you hate it.

Your post, however, does bring up how you did take into account his post, and how your opinion differs, which means you did listen to it instead of I DON'T CARE!

[Lilirulu]

You're arguing about slopes? Or is there something else going on that I'm missing ?


Well, this is why when I (if ever) make a MM fangame I'm staying far away from the NES style. 3D all the way (or something over 8-bit).
Anyways, I can't wait to see this finish so then I can shame myself trying to get more then 30 secs. into the game then die! (20sec. spent choosing a boss)


Edit: I also saved this thread to my favourites becuase it's so damned hard to find >:C _{Not that it matters~}

[Zan]

That´s because he sees the slopes as if they had no purpose, which shouldn´t be the case.

I said that slopes would hurt an aspect of gameplay unless they're kept to a minimum and used only when they should be used; that is, when smooth transitions between different height platforms are needed. This is something only Rockman8 did to facilitate the use of Rush Bike and the sled segments.

In the Rockman4 MI example, you give an example of when a stage gimmick justifies its use without compromising the jumping aspect of the game. But in that same example, the gimmick might also be a bit overused; you can see several odd examples of enemies that work only on straight floors landing on a sloped area.

About the sliding, I thought that was the whole point of adding slopes in the first place. If that´s not their function, then I don´t know why they bother adding them.

What I meant is, is that 45 degree slopes are so steep, that standing on them should be impossible; the character would be pulled down akin to Shantae on slippery slopes, and Mario crouching on a slope. The use of the less severe angle commonly used for isometric environments, has a lot more natural look that would neither require unique standing frames nor have the character slide down as in the aforementioned examples.

[KoiDrake]

But in that same example, the gimmick might also be a bit overused; you can see several odd examples of enemies that work only on straight floors landing on a sloped area.

I agree about this, but it´s still something that can be worked aound. The reason why I pointed out the first section of the stage over the rest is because I feel that the second part (when underwater) seems like it was just made for the lulz.

What I meant is, is that 45 degree slopes are so steep, that standing on them should be impossible; the character would be pulled down akin to Shantae on slippery slopes, and Mario crouching on a slope. The use of the less severe angle commonly used for isometric environments, has a lot more natural look that would neither require unique standing frames nor have the character slide down as in the aforementioned examples.

I understood this part. What I meant to say is that slopes should be placed to make the character slide down because of the steepness of the surface, and not for simple decoration. That´s the way I see it.

Weeeell, enough off-topic from me, sorry for that

[MexicanSunflower]

Me: That's not possible on NES!
MexicanSunflower: What are the limit guidelines then?
Zan: *explains them*
MexicanSunflower: WHO CARES?!

I actually laughed

[Mirby]

Well if you can't laugh at yourself! lol

Still, looks good! Now if only there was a feasible way to make the slope angle change to really screw with Mega Man. Glue Man wouldn't have any trouble, but what if the slope went from 30 degrees to 50 to 0 to 90 and anywhere in that range... maybe during the fortress rematches, of course, but that would be cool. Really get confusing. But not too often; after a set interval... I don't know, I'm rambling...

[KudosForce]

Umm, I don't think so...

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Though to be fair, the boss health bars has changed around from left to right alot throughout the game series. In mm10 it was on the left with Mega Man's.

Oh, right. Sorry, my mistake. I must've been confused by the post-MM6/pre-MM9 Classic entries and the Mega Man X series...

[Yoku Man]

Still, looks good! Now if only there was a feasible way to make the slope angle change to really screw with Mega Man. Glue Man wouldn't have any trouble, but what if the slope went from 30 degrees to 50 to 0 to 90 and anywhere in that range... maybe during the fortress rematches, of course, but that would be cool. Really get confusing. But not too often; after a set interval... I don't know, I'm rambling...

Well thats an idea.. you can always put it in the next fangame once the engine is finished and released. We're hoping you guys should be able to invent your own new features for your Mega Man games like we have done for MMU. I'd love to see a fangame with gravity changing so that you walk vertically through rooms. Maybe a robot master stage that makes you go upside-down and sideways throughout the level. The way we've set up the engine in MMF2, its easy to tweak and create those sorts of things.

Think of MMU like a template, an example game for the engine. Thats why we're featuring such things as changing gravity and slopes to show off the potential of what can be programmed with the engine. The thing I'm most proud of is how realistically it plays; the speed, the feel and the physics as a whole are very close to the latest Mega Man games. The height and distance he jumps, and his inertia feels perfect, and I believe its one of the most important aspects to recreating the Mega Man gameplay. It was lacking in that regard with the fangame "Mega Man Rocks" for example, something that ruined the other fun aspects of that game.

[Mirby]

Well, I suppose it's a good thing I gave these ideas.

[MexicanSunflower]

I totally agree, N64mario has done a wonderful job with the physics with the engine, some of the most accurate I've seen in a fan game!

I've been curious for awhile now though, will the engine be released with all of the MMU content (as in sprites, music, weapons, etc.)? Something's telling me that modifying some aspects of the MMU source code might be easier than completely re-writing something that was already included in MMU.

Either way I'm happy, I'm just curious.

[MegaPhilX]

Wow that slope discussion went a long way. ( :
I understand that slopes are left out of the classic MegaMan series' design on purpose.
In MMU, there won't be slopes anywhere other than in the GlueMan boss room because it's part of his design.
Even when I was a child he was designed similarly, so the slopes are the best way to put that concept in the game.
It shouldn't "break" the game.

[Mirby]

That's what I figured.

[Yoku Man]

I totally agree, N64mario has done a wonderful job with the physics with the engine, some of the most accurate I've seen in a fan game!

I've been curious for awhile now though, will the engine be released with all of the MMU content (as in sprites, music, weapons, etc.)? Something's telling me that modifying some aspects of the MMU source code might be easier than completely re-writing something that was already included in MMU.

Either way I'm happy, I'm just curious.

I guess thats up to Phil to decide. How about it Phil? I know you wanted to release sprites and music, etc after MMU is out, but will you be releasing it as material already in the engine, or seperately? Modifying a templates source code may be an easy way, including a preferable pdf instruction book, I'd like to have making the fangames on the engine as easy as possible. Perhaps with material already available to modify.