The Marvel vs. Capcom 3 Topic (ITS MAHVEL 3 BAYBEE)

Solar · 409125

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Bueno Excelente

  • Diddlyboodlyzoodly
  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 3839
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Reply #450 on: June 25, 2010, 08:36:18 PM
I say it should probably be arcade/consoles release. I know everyone loves the fact that it coming out for the arcades helps the game development and community, but dammit, I also want to be able to PLAY THE THING. >_>;;;



Offline HokutoNoBen

  • We Are Living! Living in 90s...90s...90s...
  • RPM Soldier
  • ****
    • Posts: 1277
    • Gender: Male
  • Nyohohoho~!
    • View Profile
Reply #451 on: June 25, 2010, 09:09:04 PM
I say it should probably be arcade/consoles release. I know everyone loves the fact that it coming out for the arcades helps the game development and community, but dammit, I also want to be able to PLAY THE THING. >_>;;;

In a perfect world...! 8D

But seriously, an arcade/console thing wouldn't work. If people had the option of playing in their own homes, that does a lot to kill the possible sales on the Arcade side. Arcade operators would not be pleased by this type of thing (they have to pay out plenty of money for those arcade cabinets and PCBs, after all), which is why the usual rule is to give an arcade version of a game at least 6 months to rack in those quarters and keep said operators happy.

I mean, believe me: I'd love nothing better than to be able to play Gundam EXTREME Versus asap. And with the game being built on Namco System 356 (PS3-based  tech), a PS3 port would be easy. But Bamco and Capcom want to make that money, and the Arcade owners want that return on their hundred thousand dollar investment, so I and others gotta wait til next spring at the earliest. 8D



Offline Bueno Excelente

  • Diddlyboodlyzoodly
  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 3839
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Reply #452 on: June 25, 2010, 09:49:50 PM
In a perfect world...! 8D

But seriously, an arcade/console thing wouldn't work. If people had the option of playing in their own homes, that does a lot to kill the possible sales on the Arcade side. Arcade operators would not be pleased by this type of thing (they have to pay out plenty of money for those arcade cabinets and PCBs, after all), which is why the usual rule is to give an arcade version of a game at least 6 months to rack in those quarters and keep said operators happy.

I mean, believe me: I'd love nothing better than to be able to play Gundam EXTREME Versus asap. And with the game being built on Namco System 356 (PS3-based  tech), a PS3 port would be easy. But Bamco and Capcom want to make that money, and the Arcade owners want that return on their hundred thousand dollar investment, so I and others gotta wait til next spring at the earliest. 8D
Aren't the people who play at arcades the most competitive? Would they stop playing in competitions such as those if the home console version was released at the same time?

They could do something like having special characters in the arcade version, that would be added through free DLC later.



Offline Solar

  • SHSL Solar Boy
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
    • Posts: 6696
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Reply #453 on: June 25, 2010, 10:42:08 PM
In a perfect world...! 8D

But seriously, an arcade/console thing wouldn't work. If people had the option of playing in their own homes, that does a lot to kill the possible sales on the Arcade side. Arcade operators would not be pleased by this type of thing (they have to pay out plenty of money for those arcade cabinets and PCBs, after all), which is why the usual rule is to give an arcade version of a game at least 6 months to rack in those quarters and keep said operators happy.

I mean, believe me: I'd love nothing better than to be able to play Gundam EXTREME Versus asap. And with the game being built on Namco System 356 (PS3-based  tech), a PS3 port would be easy. But Bamco and Capcom want to make that money, and the Arcade owners want that return on their hundred thousand dollar investment, so I and others gotta wait til next spring at the earliest. 8D

True, but I'm just being greedy on this since I know that there aren't many arcades left that would actually buy new games, but I'm sure mine would get it since they get a good amount of money from the Marvel games and actually get stuff that's newer than Neogeo/CPS2 games :P

Yeah, but for example, I don't have a classic controller, simply because I don't feel like buying an extra controller just to play a few games differently.

If I didn't have a Gamecube controller, I'd be boned when it comes to TvsC.

And that's why I say that they should've made a damn bundle like MHTri did.

A Steel Ball Run-themed (or otherwise Jojo X-over) FG would be the answer to a long-standing wish of mine. Capcom, Bamco, ASW, whoever; give me a new game! The SBR manga stands to ends some time in the near future, after all! 8D

But after the last 2 Jojo games on PS2 (which both used 3D graphics), it seems clear to me that Araki's style really only works well in a 2D style. No matter how much Bamco and Capcom tried, rendering Araki's eccentric designs doesn't seem to work well in a 3D space.

SBR is almost done? Man they really need to hurry up with those scanlations >_>

And yeah, Araki's style can only be done justice in 2D...give the license to Arc then 8D (Hey, HnK was awesome even though it was so broken that not even all of the duct tape in the world could fix it XD)


My life is currently bears and Jojos and everything is great.



Offline HokutoNoBen

  • We Are Living! Living in 90s...90s...90s...
  • RPM Soldier
  • ****
    • Posts: 1277
    • Gender: Male
  • Nyohohoho~!
    • View Profile
Reply #454 on: June 25, 2010, 10:50:40 PM
Aren't the people who play at arcades the most competitive? Would they stop playing in competitions such as those if the home console version was released at the same time?

It's not just competitive players who flock to arcades, though. Again, take for example, the Gundam Vs. series. As long as that game stays in arcades, operators are guaranteed to get hit up by everyone ranging from die-hard Gundam fans, diehard Gundam Vs. fans, casuals and even the salary man who just wants to bash in a few Zakus through 1P/2P Co-op mode after work.

In short, that's a lot of business. Business which would basically do more to be cut in more than half, once a home version arrives. And nobody, ranging from Capcom+Bamco or the Arcade Operators, wants that to be cut into any sooner than necessary.

Quote
They could do something like having special characters in the arcade version, that would be added through free DLC later.

Funny thing is that Gundam Vs. has done some thing similar to that in recent iterations, and has been pretty much confirmed for Extreme. Time unlocks make it so that with the passage of time, more units and play routes are unlocked, which only adds on more to the game. In short, you can probably be sure that by the time the Gundam 00 movie and the newest Unicorn OVA is out, stuff will probably be unlocked in Extreme that will add a new layer of fun to the product.

Of course, this isn't too much in the way of those who are still waiting on the console port. But then again, "PLUS" (Home) versions of the game have always even more, exclusive bonus units and playmodes any way, so I guess it's at least a thing that make your wait worth it. 8D

SBR is almost done? Man they really need to hurry up with those scanlations >_>

Well, right now, we're in the midst of the 8th Stage, with the 9th Stage being the last. It's any one's guess how long Araki wants to keep this going, but I'm thinking we probably will be seeing the end of this manga by the end of next year (assuming no surprises).

Quote
And yeah, Araki's style can only be done justice in 2D...give the license to Arc then 8D (Hey, HnK was awesome even though it was so broken that not even all of the duct tape in the world could fix it XD)

Hey, a broken game = a FUNNY-ASS GAME. 8D

And besides, it's not like the original Jojo game wasn't busted as all get out, either. Even before you involve the likes of top tier Pet Shop, pretty much every body has a means that makes them insanely good. It's still probably one of my fave all time games, because in the end, all of the bullshit (except for the bird's) does more to balance itself out.

Hopefully, Lucky Land Communications will start looking around for obvious marketing opportunities as the manga draws to a close. I DEMAND the right to play as Raptor Jesus...err DIO in some type of fighting game! 8D



Offline Solar

  • SHSL Solar Boy
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
    • Posts: 6696
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Reply #455 on: June 25, 2010, 10:54:43 PM
I DEMAND the right to play as Raptor Jesus...err DIO in some type of fighting game! 8D

You are not alone my friend, you certainly aren't. Also, technically wouldn't it be Rapto God, since, you know, Dio means god? 8D


My life is currently bears and Jojos and everything is great.



Offline Bueno Excelente

  • Diddlyboodlyzoodly
  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 3839
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Reply #456 on: June 25, 2010, 11:31:42 PM
It's not just competitive players who flock to arcades, though. Again, take for example, the Gundam Vs. series. As long as that game stays in arcades, operators are guaranteed to get hit up by everyone ranging from die-hard Gundam fans, diehard Gundam Vs. fans, casuals and even the salary man who just wants to bash in a few Zakus through 1P/2P Co-op mode after work.

In short, that's a lot of business. Business which would basically do more to be cut in more than half, once a home version arrives. And nobody, ranging from Capcom+Bamco or the Arcade Operators, wants that to be cut into any sooner than necessary.
Small-time japanese business versus bigtime international home release business? I'm gonna go with the big guys on this.



Offline HokutoNoBen

  • We Are Living! Living in 90s...90s...90s...
  • RPM Soldier
  • ****
    • Posts: 1277
    • Gender: Male
  • Nyohohoho~!
    • View Profile
Reply #457 on: June 26, 2010, 04:36:23 AM
Small-time japanese business versus bigtime international home release business? I'm gonna go with the big guys on this.

Again, it's all relative. And unlike over in the West, Arcades are still relevant in Japan and a good portion of the East Asian sphere. People over there still like to go to the Arcades, often, just for the "experience". Saying that they are "small-time" is definitely a misnomer.

For example, to this date, the various Gundam Vs.'s arcade releases have still pulled in more revenue for Bamco than any one of their home releases in that region on PS2 or PSP. And when you consider that Gundam is, also, only really relevant in Japan, being able to focus mainly on the arcade market makes that much more sense. 



Offline Bueno Excelente

  • Diddlyboodlyzoodly
  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 3839
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Reply #458 on: June 26, 2010, 04:50:18 AM
Again, it's all relative. And unlike over in the West, Arcades are still relevant in Japan and a good portion of the East Asian sphere. People over there still like to go to the Arcades, often, just for the "experience". Saying that they are "small-time" is definitely a misnomer.

For example, to this date, the various Gundam Vs.'s arcade releases have still pulled in more revenue for Bamco than any one of their home releases in that region on PS2 or PSP. And when you consider that Gundam is, also, only really relevant in Japan, being able to focus mainly on the arcade market makes that much more sense. 
Of course japanese companies are conservative when taking care of their own markets and not giving a damn about the rest of the world. But considering the independent titles with a huge fanbase over here which end up being ported and translated all the time, I think they're making a BIG mistake not to expand their market. Yes, the arcade business is very "small-time". Compared to the rest of the world, that is. Gundam might be a tough brand to sell internationally, but by simply closing its business on the japanese arcades alone, they're missing quite alot of fans on the other side of the globe who would be VERY happy to pay big money for their favorite new fighting game.

Capcom's decision to keep Street Fighter 4 in arcades for so long was stupid, for example. They could have kept it in arcades in Japan, but released it in consoles in the rest of the world. Importers are normally the hardcore clientelle, so that would guarantee the arcades' success. But having such a conservative approach for games which could easily turn big bucks with a huge audience? Mistake.

It's amazing the number of companies who keep porting their games mostly due to their enormous success abroad when the translation was finally released years later abroad. They just don't really seem to put faith in the international console business, and stick to arcades. Which, as much as they may continue to be a form of japanese culture, will eventually fail financially and dissapear.



Offline HokutoNoBen

  • We Are Living! Living in 90s...90s...90s...
  • RPM Soldier
  • ****
    • Posts: 1277
    • Gender: Male
  • Nyohohoho~!
    • View Profile
Reply #459 on: June 26, 2010, 06:56:23 AM
Yes, the arcade business is very "small-time". Compared to the rest of the world, that is. Gundam might be a tough brand to sell internationally, but by simply closing its business on the japanese arcades alone, they're missing quite alot of fans on the other side of the globe who would be VERY happy to pay big money for their favorite new fighting game.

Capcom's decision to keep Street Fighter 4 in arcades for so long was stupid, for example. They could have kept it in arcades in Japan, but released it in consoles in the rest of the world. Importers are normally the hardcore clientelle, so that would guarantee the arcades' success. But having such a conservative approach for games which could easily turn big bucks with a huge audience? Mistake.

It's really only a "mistake" if the company itself thinks as such. One thing you may neglect is the notion of how a company stands to make MORE money through an arcade release, as opposed to the console port.

For example, Namco. They make their arcade wares on proprietary hardware that's specified to their liking, and then unleash them on the arcade market. Who do the proceeds of those units go to? Their very maker, and then the arcade operators get their small cut. So when Tekken 6 does well in the arcades, Bandai-Namco is the main one that benefits. This is an entirely different position from the console market, where there's not only the thing of making sure a console port is able to be "arcade perfect" (or better), you have to deal with the hardware and its manufacturer themselves, along with everything else that goes with such a thing for marketing a console port. All of which, costs money that is cut from proceeds before some one like Namco even sees the profits from the console ports themselves.   

There in lies the reason why companies like Capcom and Namco, for the most part, love to make their money in arcades first. Doing it there means they get the largest, unfettered portion of cash possible. Then, after they make as much money as they can there, then they start considering the home market.   

So again, pretty much the main reason why MvC3 is not getting an arcade release is because MAHVEL is much more relevant to Western interests, arcades are decidedly dead over here and the recent success of MvC2 on LIVE and PSN in the West (it wasn't even released on PSN/XBLA in Japan...) only made it clear how and where Marvel vs. Capcom 3 should be marketed. Thus, the focus on the western console market in MvC3's particular instance, makes as much as sense as how Namco does so for Soul Calibur currently. Namco doesn't care about SC basically being a "console-only" franchise, because they still have Tekken and Gundam doing plenty to hold it down in arcades. I wouldn't be surprised if Capcom sees it the same way for other things they may have in mind...



Offline Solar

  • SHSL Solar Boy
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
    • Posts: 6696
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Reply #460 on: June 26, 2010, 06:59:35 AM
What you said only makes weirder the fact that the arcade version of Super is getting released months after the console version.


My life is currently bears and Jojos and everything is great.



Offline HokutoNoBen

  • We Are Living! Living in 90s...90s...90s...
  • RPM Soldier
  • ****
    • Posts: 1277
    • Gender: Male
  • Nyohohoho~!
    • View Profile
Reply #461 on: June 26, 2010, 07:35:55 AM
What you said only makes weirder the fact that the arcade version of Super is getting released months after the console version.

That's just a thing that can only be described as "don't underestimate the clamor of Asian arcade players". But this thing isn't as weird or uncommon as you may think. Your boys at SNK have been able to make plenty of nice capital re-releasing KOF98 and 2002 back and forth between arcades and consoles over the years, as I'm sure you know. 8D



Offline Bueno Excelente

  • Diddlyboodlyzoodly
  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 3839
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Reply #462 on: June 26, 2010, 11:32:42 AM
It's really only a "mistake" if the company itself thinks as such. One thing you may neglect is the notion of how a company stands to make MORE money through an arcade release, as opposed to the console port.

For example, Namco. They make their arcade wares on proprietary hardware that's specified to their liking, and then unleash them on the arcade market. Who do the proceeds of those units go to? Their very maker, and then the arcade operators get their small cut. So when Tekken 6 does well in the arcades, Bandai-Namco is the main one that benefits. This is an entirely different position from the console market, where there's not only the thing of making sure a console port is able to be "arcade perfect" (or better), you have to deal with the hardware and its manufacturer themselves, along with everything else that goes with such a thing for marketing a console port. All of which, costs money that is cut from proceeds before some one like Namco even sees the profits from the console ports themselves.   

There in lies the reason why companies like Capcom and Namco, for the most part, love to make their money in arcades first. Doing it there means they get the largest, unfettered portion of cash possible. Then, after they make as much money as they can there, then they start considering the home market.   

So again, pretty much the main reason why MvC3 is not getting an arcade release is because MAHVEL is much more relevant to Western interests, arcades are decidedly dead over here and the recent success of MvC2 on LIVE and PSN in the West (it wasn't even released on PSN/XBLA in Japan...) only made it clear how and where Marvel vs. Capcom 3 should be marketed. Thus, the focus on the western console market in MvC3's particular instance, makes as much as sense as how Namco does so for Soul Calibur currently. Namco doesn't care about SC basically being a "console-only" franchise, because they still have Tekken and Gundam doing plenty to hold it down in arcades. I wouldn't be surprised if Capcom sees it the same way for other things they may have in mind...
Considering the tons upon tons of units a game with enough cred can sell in the world, even with the cut profits, I kinda believe a game stands to make way more much money through console release. Even through a percentage, and with the manufacturing, exporting and taxing costs, games that get attention drawn to them are able to make alot of money. With all the math done, the developer still stands to gain quite a hefty percentage. I'd understand their inclination if the arcade business was international, or even Japan and US. But just in Japan? Just give enough hype to a game, don't cheap out on adverts, and you got a sure seller.

I'm not saying all games sell around here. There's plenty of good reasons why Visual Novels/Dating Sims have always stayed in Japan (one of them being that they're boring, with kinda clichéd storylines by now =P), and I'm not opposed to typical japanese genres to be stuck around there. But COME ON. Virtua Fighter is an unexplored goldmine as far as it goes. And Street Fighter, being the world's most widely known fighting game, could have had an international release easily.



Offline HokutoNoBen

  • We Are Living! Living in 90s...90s...90s...
  • RPM Soldier
  • ****
    • Posts: 1277
    • Gender: Male
  • Nyohohoho~!
    • View Profile
Reply #463 on: June 28, 2010, 08:29:09 AM
But COME ON. Virtua Fighter is an unexplored goldmine as far as it goes. And Street Fighter, being the world's most widely known fighting game, could have had an international release easily.

Again, even if they could, they more than likely won't do such a thing, because again, the symbiosis that Capcom and other such markets have with the arcade market is (usually) too beneficial. Not only on the monetary tip, but just for the sake of the game's possible "health" in itself. Namely: How does a modern day fighting game of decent competitive value hope to obtain such a thing? Months upon months of beta testing in various arcades, which do more to be a "controlled environment" that a developer can actively monitor. And even the time frame after the game goes "Gold" in arcades can still be considered an extensive "testing ground", from which the devs will use in order to consider what to do for the home version. And that's in addition to any other things that they may want to give exclusively to the home version.

In short, you want a fighting game to be the most "balanced" and most "bang for your buck" experience it could stand to be? You would probably prefer it to be put through its paces, BEFORE it reaches your PS3/360. Tekken 6's PS3/360 port was basically a disaster, and it had a lot to do with the fact that Namco tried to "rush dat [parasitic bomb] down" before making sure that the game was truly optimized. Never played the game, but the fallout for Arcana Heart 2's PS2 port is entirely warranted; it's probably the worst port-job for a FG since the 90s and the SNES/PSX. Meanwhile, you had to wait a minute for BB:CS last summer, but in the end, it was worth it for the sake of, if nothing else, ASW/Aksys giving a quality port with excellent netcode.

Besides, most FG developers know that, now-a-days, you're not going to be able to sell any type of home version of a FG, and expect to get by with just a "straight port" that just had Arcade and Vs. That's basically commercial suicide, and not even SF would be able to get away with some thing like that. So they might as well use that extra time to add in those extra modes that will sweeten the deal for those buyers. 8D



Any way! Getting back on topic!

Quote
The EVO Championship Series is proud to reveal that the 2010 World Finals will also feature Marvel Vs. Capcom 3: Fate of Two Worlds, playable by the general public for the first time anywhere. Marvel Vs. Capcom 3 producer Ryota Niitsuma will also be making a special appearance alongside his new game, so stop by to play it for yourself and tell him what you think!

- http://shoryuken.com/content/evo-2010-first-publicly-playable-build-marvel-vs-capcom-3-fate-two-worlds-super-exclusive-mad-catz-golden-fightsticks-1080/

I gotta say...for Niitsuma and Capcom to have enough balls to showcase the game at the VERY place where the highest probability of naysayers, haters, cautiously pessimistic and otherwise MvC2 players stand to be? That's pretty gangsta. Now, if only Niitsuma can truly deliver on his claims on how the "upcoming build of MvC3 will be even more like MvC2", we might be truly onto something. 8D

EVO will be taking place 7/9-7/11, in any case. So look forward to that time for more news! 



Offline Protoman Blues

  • Green Lantern of Sector 1337
  • RPM Knight
  • ****
    • Posts: 31343
    • Gender: Male
  • Searching for Wanda
    • View Profile
Reply #464 on: June 28, 2010, 08:42:37 AM
How exciting.



Offline Bueno Excelente

  • Diddlyboodlyzoodly
  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 3839
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Reply #465 on: June 28, 2010, 12:25:54 PM
Honestly, easier fixes to game flaws can be gotten through patches. Why not have open betas, like FPS games have nowadays? There's tons of ways to make the game better for the home environment.

And that arcade stick looks nice. A bit too pee-color for my tastes, but nice still. And I agree, they do have balls to show it there, SPECIALLY since the game's been criticized by the hardcore for being too much like TvsC.



Offline HokutoNoBen

  • We Are Living! Living in 90s...90s...90s...
  • RPM Soldier
  • ****
    • Posts: 1277
    • Gender: Male
  • Nyohohoho~!
    • View Profile
Reply #466 on: June 28, 2010, 09:16:09 PM
Honestly, easier fixes to game flaws can be gotten through patches. Why not have open betas, like FPS games have nowadays?

Two main reasons -

1) Money - "Open Betas", like you are thinking of, wouldn't make arcade developers the money they would get from both loke tests and a full-fledged arcade run. That much goes without saying.
 
2) The "closed environment" - Loke tests afford fighting game developers to keep a closer observation on how the game is being performing throughout the course of the loke test. For the sake of a smaller "circle" that is a fighting game development team and its direct audience, it keeps the devs and players closer to each other. For the sake of a decidedly smaller "infrastructure" such as this, it works. The FG market is still NOWHERE NEAR the market share that FPSes or the rudimentary Blizzard game enjoy.

Even the way that Capcom is marketing MvC3 currently is, in the end, a "modified" version of how a this same "test period" would operate for any other major arcade release. The fact that it's a "straight to console" release for the sake of the Western demographic notwithstanding, it's clear that E3 and now the upcoming EVO were/are basically "loke tests" in this particular instance (with the only minus being that Capcom doesn't make any more money beyond what they already get from sponsoring such events). 



Offline Bueno Excelente

  • Diddlyboodlyzoodly
  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 3839
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Reply #467 on: June 28, 2010, 09:43:42 PM
Two main reasons -

1) Money - "Open Betas", like you are thinking of, wouldn't make arcade developers the money they would get from both loke tests and a full-fledged arcade run. That much goes without saying.
 
2) The "closed environment" - Loke tests afford fighting game developers to keep a closer observation on how the game is being performing throughout the course of the loke test. For the sake of a smaller "circle" that is a fighting game development team and its direct audience, it keeps the devs and players closer to each other. For the sake of a decidedly smaller "infrastructure" such as this, it works. The FG market is still NOWHERE NEAR the market share that FPSes or the rudimentary Blizzard game enjoy.

Even the way that Capcom is marketing MvC3 currently is, in the end, a "modified" version of how a this same "test period" would operate for any other major arcade release. The fact that it's a "straight to console" release for the sake of the Western demographic notwithstanding, it's clear that E3 and now the upcoming EVO were/are basically "loke tests" in this particular instance (with the only minus being that Capcom doesn't make any more money beyond what they already get from sponsoring such events). 
Solutions:

1) Paid open betas. Tons of ways to do this. SSF2THDR had one.
2) Tournaments set inside such betas, devs watch such tournaments streamed. The infrastructure is small because only regional players are even able to attend such spaces and play such games. To hell with keeping it in the family, global release is king. And internationally, you'd get a hell of a lot better bug test results than you'd get with a small crowd at an arcade.



Offline HokutoNoBen

  • We Are Living! Living in 90s...90s...90s...
  • RPM Soldier
  • ****
    • Posts: 1277
    • Gender: Male
  • Nyohohoho~!
    • View Profile
Reply #468 on: June 28, 2010, 11:17:32 PM
Solutions:

1) Paid open betas. Tons of ways to do this. SSF2THDR had one.

HDR was also a big time and money sink that was sometimes seemingly teetering on the edge of being canned, because of the problematic development cycle and trying to coordinate things with an American dev. How HDR was able to rise above all the BS that surrounded its development cycle is nothing short of miraculous, but I sincerely doubt it will be a long time before Capcom does something to that effect again.

Quote
2) Tournaments set inside such betas, devs watch such tournaments streamed.

These things already happen in Japanese arcades and in parts of the US West Coast, where the Arcade market is still fairly lucrative. Such things get the job done just fine for the purposes of the developer, the game and its scene. If you're the developer, why should you want to spend more money than is necessary?

Quote
The infrastructure is small because only regional players are even able to attend such spaces and play such games.

No, the infrastructure is small because the fighting game market itself is still small. "Year of the Fighter/Fighting Game Rebirth" sensationalism aside, FGs still do a lot to cater to the same audience they always have. The best you can say about the "mainstream success" that some titles like Street Fighter, Soul Calibur and Mortal Kombat have obtained in recent years, is that there will always be a demographic that will be happy to play the games every once in a while for the sake of shits and giggles at parties. But they're the same ones who more than likely can't be bothered to care about the games beyond that scope.

So, in that light, what reason is there to change things, from Capcom and Namco's POVs? "Johnny Casual", or his decidedly more urban counterpart "Raheem Kashwel", isn't likely going to care that the latest versions of Street Fighter and Tekken might be stuck in arcades for a period of 6 months to a year, before they can hook it up into their Xbox 360s. In their cases, there's not going to be agonizing over loke test footage that could be viewed on youtube, nico or TRF, and wondering "WHY AM I NOT ABLE TO PLAY THIS [parasitic bomb] YET, I NEED THIS IN MY LIFE NOW?!". The ones who are doing that are well, guys like you, me and the denizens at SRK, and respective communities for the various fighting games that exist. And well, we're all, collectively, definitely in the minority. 8D

If things change, then maybe Capcom, Namco and their ilk will do likewise. But I don't foresee any such developments ever occurring, because even Capcom, Midway and Namco, the "leaders" in the game, if you will, don't see the need to adapt their marketing and development plans beyond that which has proven to work. And for developers like SNK on down, who've never had the sheer commercial success that the big boys have enjoyed, that much is only more the case. 



Offline Bueno Excelente

  • Diddlyboodlyzoodly
  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 3839
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Reply #469 on: June 28, 2010, 11:49:35 PM
HDR was also a big time and money sink that was sometimes seemingly teetering on the edge of being canned, because of the problematic development cycle and trying to coordinate things with an American dev. How HDR was able to rise above all the BS that surrounded its development cycle is nothing short of miraculous, but I sincerely doubt it will be a long time before Capcom does something to that effect again.
And presently, it's the best version of Street Fighter 2, and probably the tightest, most balanced, best competitive fighting game in the world. But that's besides the point. I was talking about the paid beta, which was released with Commando 3. Tons of people bought the game just to have the multiplayer beta.

Quote
These things already happen in Japanese arcades and in parts of the US West Coast, where the Arcade market is still fairly lucrative. Such things get the job done just fine for the purposes of the developer, the game and its scene. If you're the developer, why should you want to spend more money than is necessary?

No, the infrastructure is small because the fighting game market itself is still small. "Year of the Fighter/Fighting Game Rebirth" sensationalism aside, FGs still do a lot to cater to the same audience they always have. The best you can say about the "mainstream success" that some titles like Street Fighter, Soul Calibur and Mortal Kombat have obtained in recent years, is that there will always be a demographic that will be happy to play the games every once in a while for the sake of shits and giggles at parties. But they're the same ones who more than likely can't be bothered to care about the games beyond that scope.

So, in that light, what reason is there to change things, from Capcom and Namco's POVs? "Johnny Casual", or his decidedly more urban counterpart "Raheem Kashwel", isn't likely going to care that the latest versions of Street Fighter and Tekken might be stuck in arcades for a period of 6 months to a year, before they can hook it up into their Xbox 360s. In their cases, there's not going to be agonizing over loke test footage that could be viewed on youtube, nico or TRF, and wondering "WHY AM I NOT ABLE TO PLAY THIS [parasitic bomb] YET, I NEED THIS IN MY LIFE NOW?!". The ones who are doing that are well, guys like you, me and the denizens at SRK, and respective communities for the various fighting games that exist. And well, we're all, collectively, definitely in the minority. 8D

If things change, then maybe Capcom, Namco and their ilk will do likewise. But I don't foresee any such developments ever occurring, because even Capcom, Midway and Namco, the "leaders" in the game, if you will, don't see the need to adapt their marketing and development plans beyond that which has proven to work. And for developers like SNK on down, who've never had the sheer commercial success that the big boys have enjoyed, that much is only more the case. 
It certainly has a bigger fanbase than a ton of other, more "underground" titles that japanese companies always make an effort to release as soon as possible because the fanbase demands it, and makes quite a bit of money for them. And don't tell me big-named fighting games such as Street Fighter don't sell well. If it's Sprite Loli Moe Fighter version three thousand four hundred and seven, I can understand there's no big clamoring for it, but games like Street Fighter 4 should have had a worldwide release, no matter how much testing hired professionals have to do behind closed doors. Heck, fighting games can be enjoyed by a big mainstream audience. They certainly got enough cred, and waaaaaaaay more cred than a ton of other popular genres. Developers should spend more money in releasing titles worldwide and making the whole thing just work, because it gives them a bigger audience. Giving more importance to that big audience = more money. And before you start saying about how not alot of people are interested in the complexity of fighting games, I'll just say that they're not more complex than say... World of Warcraft, or Starcraft. Being GOOD at either of those games requires quite alot of time and skill. And tons upon tons of people still do it. And bugs are checked, and they're fixed with patches.

Hell, I am a casual fighter player. I've never took the time to get good at SF2 with more than one character, and in many fighting games, whenever mashing works, I use it. But I like getting temporarily good at some, more experiencing fighting games. But I do believe there's massive potencial for this genre. They just need to expand it. It can become very lucrative if they can make it work.



Offline HokutoNoBen

  • We Are Living! Living in 90s...90s...90s...
  • RPM Soldier
  • ****
    • Posts: 1277
    • Gender: Male
  • Nyohohoho~!
    • View Profile
Reply #470 on: June 29, 2010, 02:58:47 AM
And presently, it's the best version of Street Fighter 2, and probably the tightest, most balanced, best competitive fighting game in the world.

MANY people would beg to differ with that statement. To say the least, especially our Asian brethren, who can't even play the game through normal means (No Japanese/Asian release of HD Remix exists). Still others have problems with how David Sirlin chose to "balance" the game (giving buffs to his favorite character, Honda, for example).

Quote
Developers should spend more money in releasing titles worldwide and making the whole thing just work, because it gives them a bigger audience. Giving more importance to that big audience = more money.

You're asking them to spend the money, but...for what reason? Where is the guarantee of a "bigger" audience if they really sought out to change things any more than what they are currently? For example, "Vanilla" SF4 has gone on to sell upwards of over 3 million units world wide. Mortal Kombat vs. DC went on to sell 1.8 million units. Both of these games have done just fine, doing things as per the current "status quo". Conversely, Tekken 6 has done more to be a commercial failure, even in spite of an attempt to make for a decent worldwide push beyond its normal scope (for what it was worth).

If any thing, T6 is probably the very thing that showcases why trying to vie for what you speak of can do more harm than good for a fighting game. Development of the home version was held back by an additional year, and it was largely due to Namco wanting to craft a 360 port to make for better "worldwide appeal" (much to the chagrin of PS3 owners who were originally expecting to be able to play the game back in 08). The end result was that BOTH ports suffered as a result performance-wise, and that wasn't even necessary when bad netcode and other issues would eventually crop up, and would do more to seal the fate of T6's home version. In the end, what can be concluded is that trying to go for the "worldwide appeal" with the Tekken property was just too much for even Namco, one of the biggest publishers in the business. As of right now, Namco's Tekken brand is in a pretty bad slump worldwide, which is probably why they've already done more to announce Tekken 7 in an effort to try and save face after last year's fiasco.

So, we got a number of examples of some doing just fine with things the way they are, and one resounding example of how trying to go too far was disastrous. Which do you think most of the competition is going to go with, especially in this economic climate? 8D 

Quote
But I do believe there's massive potential for this genre. They just need to expand it. It can become very lucrative if they can make it work.

Unfortunately, I don't see it the same way. For one, how do you go about "making it work"? "Expanding the genre", even? Is the answer more in the way of "casual appeal"? I would say "no"; if there's anything that games ranging from KOF, Melty Blood, BlazBlue and TvC have showcased, it's that reducing the number of buttons doesn't do THAT much to level the playing field. Those who still bother to learn the games are going to be the ones who win out, even if you do end up humoring the fantasy of "one button Hadoukens", one day. On the contrary, such a thing does more to take away from the meta-game that experienced players like myself love, which doesn't do us any favors, either.

No, the long and short of it seems to be that Fighting Games would probably need to significantly overhaul the basic formula at a fundamental level, in order to make it expand. Because the basic thing is, Fighting Games require you to do a whole lot in the way of "learning" just to be able to be competent. And that's not something that everybody can do, especially since there's no immediate reward for this learning process that this current "Achievement" and "Trophy" generation can relate to.

Namely, a game like StarCraft will teach you how to play the game through its story mode, and if nothing else, a gamer can play through the campaign, and feel a sense of "achievement" for beating the game. He may or may not ever go on battle.net, but at least he's got that sense of achievement that can't be taken away from him. Such a thing doesn't really exist in the fighting games of today. A gamer can plow through the story mode, muster whatever is necessary to see a character's ending and barely scrape the surface of what the game may potentially have.

Now, I show you this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4WhEc_pjOE (Technical Breakdown for Ash Crimson in KOFXIII)

I could break down a video like this for a more casual minded gamer. Tell 'em how one does the stuff in it, when it should be applied in a match and etc. If they're still around, and not scared away by the amount of learning that would be required to perform some of this stuff, the main thing I could imagine them saying is "....why? Why should I learn this stuff? What's my motivation, if I'm just going to play the game the way I want to play it? I just count myself lucky that I'm able to do a Shoryuken at least 1/4 of the time~! 8D". 

That, in a nutshell, explains why FG still have such a great "disconnect" when it comes to casual gamers, which furthermore is the main proponent of why expansion of any sort is unlikely. The basic formula would likely have to be overhauled in order to even hold their interest for more than the "shits and giggles" state of mind. And even there, where's the guarantee of expansion? Hell, you might do more to [acid burst] off your ride-or-die fanbase and lose everything in the process.

So, in the end, that's perhaps one reason why I'm still going to watch out for MvC3, even as I'm still cautiously pessimistic (for now, at least). A much more casual interface, "more emphasis on story" and familiar brand names and characters may have the potential to showcase a new way of doing fighting games. Or it could just be more of the same. We'll see~.

[/rant] 8D 



Offline Bueno Excelente

  • Diddlyboodlyzoodly
  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 3839
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Reply #471 on: June 29, 2010, 03:23:15 AM
MANY people would beg to differ with that statement. To say the least, especially our Asian brethren, who can't even play the game through normal means (No Japanese/Asian release of HD Remix exists). Still others have problems with how David Sirlin chose to "balance" the game (giving buffs to his favorite character, Honda, for example).

You're asking them to spend the money, but...for what reason? Where is the guarantee of a "bigger" audience if they really sought out to change things any more than what they are currently? For example, "Vanilla" SF4 has gone on to sell upwards of over 3 million units world wide. Mortal Kombat vs. DC went on to sell 1.8 million units. Both of these games have done just fine, doing things as per the current "status quo". Conversely, Tekken 6 has done more to be a commercial failure, even in spite of an attempt to make for a decent worldwide push beyond its normal scope (for what it was worth).

If any thing, T6 is probably the very thing that showcases why trying to vie for what you speak of can do more harm than good for a fighting game. Development of the home version was held back by an additional year, and it was largely due to Namco wanting to craft a 360 port to make for better "worldwide appeal" (much to the chagrin of PS3 owners who were originally expecting to be able to play the game back in 08). The end result was that BOTH ports suffered as a result performance-wise, and that wasn't even necessary when bad netcode and other issues would eventually crop up, and would do more to seal the fate of T6's home version. In the end, what can be concluded is that trying to go for the "worldwide appeal" with the Tekken property was just too much for even Namco, one of the biggest publishers in the business. As of right now, Namco's Tekken brand is in a pretty bad slump worldwide, which is probably why they've already done more to announce Tekken 7 in an effort to try and save face after last year's fiasco.

So, we got a number of examples of some doing just fine with things the way they are, and one resounding example of how trying to go too far was disastrous. Which do you think most of the competition is going to go with, especially in this economic climate? 8D 

Unfortunately, I don't see it the same way. For one, how do you go about "making it work"? "Expanding the genre", even? Is the answer more in the way of "casual appeal"? I would say "no"; if there's anything that games ranging from KOF, Melty Blood, BlazBlue and TvC have showcased, it's that reducing the number of buttons doesn't do THAT much to level the playing field. Those who still bother to learn the games are going to be the ones who win out, even if you do end up humoring the fantasy of "one button Hadoukens", one day. On the contrary, such a thing does more to take away from the meta-game that experienced players like myself love, which doesn't do us any favors, either.

No, the long and short of it seems to be that Fighting Games would probably need to significantly overhaul the basic formula at a fundamental level, in order to make it expand. Because the basic thing is, Fighting Games require you to do a whole lot in the way of "learning" just to be able to be competent. And that's not something that everybody can do, especially since there's no immediate reward for this learning process that this current "Achievement" and "Trophy" generation can relate to.

Namely, a game like StarCraft will teach you how to play the game through its story mode, and if nothing else, a gamer can play through the campaign, and feel a sense of "achievement" for beating the game. He may or may not ever go on battle.net, but at least he's got that sense of achievement that can't be taken away from him. Such a thing doesn't really exist in the fighting games of today. A gamer can plow through the story mode, muster whatever is necessary to see a character's ending and barely scrape the surface of what the game may potentially have.

Now, I show you this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4WhEc_pjOE (Technical Breakdown for Ash Crimson in KOFXIII)

I could break down a video like this for a more casual minded gamer. Tell 'em how one does the stuff in it, when it should be applied in a match and etc. If they're still around, and not scared away by the amount of learning that would be required to perform some of this stuff, the main thing I could imagine them saying is "....why? Why should I learn this stuff? What's my motivation, if I'm just going to play the game the way I want to play it? I just count myself lucky that I'm able to do a Shoryuken at least 1/4 of the time~! 8D". 

That, in a nutshell, explains why FG still have such a great "disconnect" when it comes to casual gamers, which furthermore is the main proponent of why expansion of any sort is unlikely. The basic formula would likely have to be overhauled in order to even hold their interest for more than the "shits and giggles" state of mind. And even there, where's the guarantee of expansion? Hell, you might do more to [acid burst] off your ride-or-die fanbase and lose everything in the process.

So, in the end, that's perhaps one reason why I'm still going to watch out for MvC3, even as I'm still cautiously pessimistic (for now, at least). A much more casual interface, "more emphasis on story" and familiar brand names and characters may have the potential to showcase a new way of doing fighting games. Or it could just be more of the same. We'll see~.

[/rant] 8D 
Jesus Christ, it's 2AM. Not gonna reply to all that. Still, while I do agree with the fact that it may be hard to introduce complex fighting games into the overall gaming population, I do believe a way to do it should be explored. I offered some ideas, but I don't develop games, and neither do I have any kind of idea about what the current game companies face economically. But I will say this. It's possible to pretty much popularize every single gaming genre without taking away its substance, and still making it appeal to an enormous audience. I refuse to believe that fighting games are better off in a tiny niche, with japanese players flocking to their own little arcades while the rest of the world can't share such an experience. This isn't just a "I want to play the game" rant. Heck, being a huge Street Fighter fan, I still haven't bought a version of 4, mooching off from friends' disks when I can. My point is that fighting games have shown that they can appeal to everyone. And there must be a way to introduce them to a wider audience without taking away the essence that makes them what they are. Smash Bros had the right idea, for example, but it went at it from a completely different angle. Imagine doing that for 1-on-1 fighting games. It's possible. People may think about impossibilities in terms of controls and a wider audience, but there's always some kind of incredible solution one can find, eventually. Meanwhile, even for a regular masher such as myself, fighting games are still quite alot of fun, and I continue to play them and enjoy them quite alot. I know the same is possible for the average gamer.



Offline Blaze Yeager

  • The Loremaster
  • SA-Class Hunter
  • *
    • Posts: 737
    • Gender: Male
  • "To win is to lose, to lose is to win."
    • View Profile
    • Suikatei Blog
Reply #472 on: July 01, 2010, 02:56:00 AM
Uh...Who are the characters so far?

Into Darkness, into the Abyss. Where only anathema exists.
| https://twitter.com/BlazeMcPhearson |


Offline TheOnly

  • SA-Class Hunter
  • *
    • Posts: 701
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Reply #473 on: July 01, 2010, 03:03:40 AM
IronMan,Dante,Hulk,Morgan,Dreadpool,Dante,Wolverine,That guy from Resident Evil. That's all I can think of.

Forgot, Capt. America.
I think I spelled some characters name wrong so yea.

Signature:
Signatures are displayed at the bottom of each post or personal message. BBC code and smileys may be used in your signature.


Offline dragontamer272

  • Resistance Member
  • *
    • Posts: 214
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Deviantart
Reply #474 on: July 05, 2010, 06:11:31 AM
PLAYABLE. BLUES.


Back at Capcom-Unity, I made a blog on my page about having him in MvC 3, a friend of mine "Nemesi" wants him in there too. Besides, he's never been in the other 2.

Visit my art gallery at deviantart today. http://dragontamer272.deviantart.com/

Yes, I am now one of those so-called "Bronies".