Topic: Super Smash Bros. Thread

[Soultrigger]

Pikachu & Pokemon Trainer on N64:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Samus & Ridley in Melee:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

...do we require any further explanation of how relative the concept of "size" is in the Smash Bros. universe?

Ugh, yet another Ridley debate...

First of all, referencing the Melee opening as Ridley being small enough fails for 2 reasons:
1) The appearance lasts for mere seconds, which means it holds little weight in comparison to all his other appearances. This is akin to using Metroid 1's Ridley height.
2) The sequence makes heavy use of camera perspective. If you play OoT and fight Ganondorf, from afar he only looks <i>slightly</i> taller than Link. Stand right next to him, and he's actually about twice Link's height.

So why does Ridley's size matter so much? Because it contributes to his aesthetic, his appearance. Remember Ridley grabbing Samus in his hands in Brawl and Other M? Remember Samus fitting in Ridley's mouth in Corruption? Dramatically downsizing him means he no longer fits this image.

Ganondorf was downscaled to be only slightly taller than Link, but Ganondorf wasn't known for any particular size feats.

Because actual size logic doesn't matter in Smash. There are so many people that aren't proportionately correct to their in universe measurements. Sakurai even said so in one of the Little Mac posts. Kirby's supposed to be 8 inches tall, Pikachu about 1 foot, and they're both barely smaller than Mario. And depending on the game, Bowser is [tornado fang]ing huge. There's no reason why they couldn't scale Ridley down to DK size.

If you're using actual measurements, you're doing it wrong: as a crossover, the only thing that should matter is <i>relative</i> size, especially with their own universe. Olimar, as a humanoid, obviously needs to scale up to be playable. Notice however, that Olimar is still to scale with Distant Planet.

On the other hand, it's true that size logic often becomes broken in Smash, and the prime example is Fox, Arwings, The Great Fox, and Landmaster. This is an exception I usually turned a blind eye to since the ginormous difference could be argued to be a result of mixing Fox's ginormous Final Smash with a retro stage that was previously scaled smaller for gameplay purposes.

Now the Bowser argument: Bowser is typically ginormous in the main Super Mario games, and yet he's scaled down perfectly fine in Smash. First and foremost, Bowser has been in plenty of spinoffs where he was made smaller, which means people got used to his scaling early on. Secondly, unlike Zelda or Metroid which have official timeline/multiverses, Super Mario doesn't care much about consistency, so it's not fair to downplay the consistency of Ridley's image to that of a character from an inconsistent series.

...

Anyways, I'll end with saying this: because of Other M's redesign of Ridley (of which I hate), I <i>can</i> see Ridley being downsized for Smash 4 as a playable character, and <i>only</i> because they decided to make him muscular. Had Ridley stuck with his skinnier proportions, I would definitely not see him having any chance being playable, and my proof being that if he could've been playable, he would have been in Brawl.

[Hypershell]

First of all, referencing the Melee opening as Ridley being small enough fails for 2 reasons:
1) The appearance lasts for mere seconds, which means it holds little weight in comparison to all his other appearances. This is akin to using Metroid 1's Ridley height.
2) The sequence makes heavy use of camera perspective. If you play OoT and fight Ganondorf, from afar he only looks <i>slightly</i> taller than Link. Stand right next to him, and he's actually about twice Link's height.

Timeframe is irrelevant.  It exists, therefore it proves the possibility, and the clear measure of Ridley's relative size in the scene IS Samus.

Your perception of the camera angle fails, you can clearly see that Samus is standing in a corridor with relatively little distance between her and the wall; between that and Ridley's wingspan he cannot be that much further away from the camera than Samus.  Also be aware, the canister/Metroid larva that he is holding is by cutscene (artistically expected to be more accurate than gameplay sprites) small enough for Samus to carry in her arms.

Scenery scaling is not at all necessary when discussing how loose relative size is in Smash: Compare Pikachu to Mewtwo or Lucario.  Argument broken.

Brawl is where Ridley's wall-drag maneuver originated, and itis  also the worst possible reference for Ridley's size and any claim to consistency that you could possibly reach for, because Ridley's default form is NOWHERE NEAR the same size as Meta Ridley.  Even in the core Metroid games, Ridley's size is far from consistent, as he's been everywhere from slightly larger than Samus to positively dwarfing her (Zero Mission being among his larger appearances, probably the only one close to Brawl).  Even relative only to himself, his own body proportions are changed up quite a bit which is especially noticeable in his wingspan (it's worth mentioning at this point that a tail and wings are no more necessarily part of one's hitbox than a cape, from a programming standpoint).  Ridley's size is variable, and it is traditionally on the larger side BECAUSE of the fact that his role has been consistently "boss".  Despite that, he has still been tweaked at the whim of whatever artist gets their hands on him, and Sakurai in and of himself has already done a thorough job of demonstrating that.

[Satoryu]

Lumiose City is a stage in the 3DS version. I'm guessing it will be a tour stage like Mute City or Isle Delfino, haven't seen the Miiverse description yet.

Yesterday's picture was a trophy of fat Little Mac from Captain Rainbow. Cool they're acknowledging that game. Wonder if the captain himself could be playable? I'd say no just because how far under the radar that game is.

[Soultrigger]

Timeframe is irrelevant.  It exists, therefore it proves the possibility, and the clear measure of Ridley's relative size in the scene IS Samus.

Timeframe is especially relevant. Otherwise, we would just say "Metroid 1 Ridley was small" and be done with the argument, and yet here we are discussing it.

Your perception of the camera angle fails, you can clearly see that Samus is standing in a corridor with relatively little distance between her and the wall; between that and Ridley's wingspan he cannot be that much further away from the camera than Samus.  Also be aware, the canister/Metroid larva that he is holding is by cutscene (artistically expected to be more accurate than gameplay sprites) small enough for Samus to carry in her arms.

The top of Samus's head doesn't even reach Ridley's chin. She's looking away from the camera, up towards Ridley. She's not close to the wall, she does a jumping front flip towards the background and still has space between her and the wall.

Honestly, the fact that we're arguing this shows that the Melee opening is fairly ambiguous.

If your argument is to say that a slightly larger Ridley existed and therefore could work, I very much disagree: Brawl Hacks Special: Ridley Released!

Scenery scaling is not at all necessary when discussing how loose relative size is in Smash: Compare Pikachu to Mewtwo or Lucario.  Argument broken.

I don't think I've ever heard people complain about Pikachu being too big until Ridley's size comes into question.

There's a big difference between upscaling someone from knee height to hip height, than downscaling a giant monstrous space dragon to less than half his size. Suffice it to say, you can't say rescaling something should work just because something else was rescaled. Each case should be treated differently. Again, Ganondorf was also rescaled quite a bit, but nobody really cared because Ganondorf wasn't known for doing anything big for his huge figure other than, well, being <i>relatively bigger</i>, which he still is in Melee/Brawl. That, and Ganondorf being a towering figure wasn't ingrained into every Zelda player like how Ridley is with every Metroid player.

Brawl is where Ridley's wall-drag maneuver originated, and itis  also the worst possible reference for Ridley's size and any claim to consistency that you could possibly reach for, because Ridley's default form is NOWHERE NEAR the same size as Meta Ridley.

Why should Meta Ridley be a different size from Ridley? He's Ridley cybernetically enhanced, not Ridley on growth supplements.

Worst source, as opposed to Melee? Brawl was more recent than Melee, and made Ridley a boss. Twice. And they also took the hand grabbing thing and did it again in Other M, also the most recent Metroid iteration. (This is coming from someone who dislikes Brawl and Other M, by the way...).

You're cherry picking your arguments.

Even in the core Metroid games, Ridley's size is far from consistent, as he's been everywhere from slightly larger than Samus to positively dwarfing her (Zero Mission being among his larger appearances, probably the only one close to Brawl).  Even relative only to himself, his own body proportions are changed up quite a bit which is especially noticeable in his wingspan (it's worth mentioning at this point that a tail and wings are no more necessarily part of one's hitbox than a cape, from a programming standpoint).  Ridley's size is variable, and it is traditionally on the larger side BECAUSE of the fact that his role has been consistently "boss".  Despite that, he has still been tweaked at the whim of whatever artist gets their hands on him, and Sakurai in and of himself has already done a thorough job of demonstrating that.

Ridley's size is variable? He's consistently significantly larger than Samus. Super Metroid is the smallest I've seen him, and he's scrunched up. Not to mention, Super Metroid is also the second oldest appearance of Ridley. But let's say you put a lot of stock into Super Metroid's appearance:

[spoiler]


Yep, still really big.
[/spoiler]

[Protoman Blues]

Lumiose City is a stage in the 3DS version. I'm guessing it will be a tour stage like Mute City or Isle Delfino, haven't seen the Miiverse description yet.

Yesterday's picture was a trophy of fat Little Mac from Captain Rainbow. Cool they're acknowledging that game. Wonder if the captain himself could be playable? I'd say no just because how far under the radar that game is.

Captain Rainbow being under the rader is exactly why I'd love him in the game.

[Fxeni]

I want Ganon to be playable... the one with the trident.

[Protoman Blues]

Yeah, same here.

[Hypershell]

Timeframe is especially relevant. Otherwise, we would just say "Metroid 1 Ridley was small" and be done with the argument, and yet here we are discussing it.

You misunderstand, I was responding to your claim of the duration of the scene weakening its validity, not to how old the scene was.

The top of Samus's head doesn't even reach Ridley's chin.

...Ridley is flying with his leg fully extended.

I should not have to explain to anyone claiming to know anything about Ridley's aesthetic that it is not AT ALL appropriate for him to stand perfectly upright the way that a human does, thus measuring height from toe to head as a comparison to Samus's relative height is inappropriate.

If your argument is to say that a slightly larger Ridley existed and therefore could work, I very much disagree: Brawl Hacks Special: Ridley Released![/quote]...I'm lost, why doesn't that video work? 

I don't think I've ever heard people complain about Pikachu being too big until Ridley's size comes into question.

That's because Pikachu's resizing was very obviously done for the full and sole purpose of making him an appropriate combatant for the game, and Ridley is the only reason anyone ever argues that doing so would not be acceptable.

Bowser might be more open to interpretation, but it's not as if his transition to Smash Bros. was flawless either.  It is VERY noticeable how hunched over he is in Brawl, to the point where he actually stands shorter than most reasonably tall characters.

like how Ridley is with every Metroid player.

So the people who request him aren't Metroid players?

Why should Meta Ridley be a different size from Ridley? He's Ridley cybernetically enhanced, not Ridley on growth supplements.

You completely missed the point of my post: He SHOULDN'T, but in Brawl, he IS.  Brawl's Meta Ridley is considerably smaller than Brawl's Ridley.  Most likely this was done because of varying body proportions: Meta Ridley has a proportionately much larger wingspan, which leads to a smaller body size if you don't want his wings enveloping the entire screen.  You maintain that Ridley's size is consistent yet ignore how inconsistent his second-most-recent game appearance is within itself.  And why?  Strictly for gameplay and presentation.  Because we are after all talking about a game where dolls and trophies come to life and fight each other, not an in-universe crossover.

[Police Girl]

Bowser might be more open to interpretation, but it's not as if his transition to Smash Bros. was flawless either.  It is VERY noticeable how hunched over he is in Brawl, to the point where he actually stands shorter than most reasonably tall characters.

And in the most recent one he seems to have better posture as he's been seen standing more upright. So they obviously changed something about him.

[Soultrigger]

You misunderstand, I was responding to your claim of the duration of the scene weakening its validity, not to how old the scene was.

Actually, that matters too. The scene only lasts for a few seconds and therefore is expected to be scrutinized much less than a full-fledged boss encounter. Consider for example that the creators have to take into account framing the action, so even if you were right, downscaling Ridley specifically in this case may be preferable because he better fits the camera while still appearing large.

...Ridley is flying with his leg fully extended.

I should not have to explain to anyone claiming to know anything about Ridley's aesthetic that it is not AT ALL appropriate for him to stand perfectly upright the way that a human does, thus measuring height from toe to head as a comparison to Samus's relative height is inappropriate.

He doesn't stand upright, but he <i>will</i> need to extend his limbs when he animates. The fact that he's scrunched up means that, when you scale his standing height to about 1/2, you're actually reducing his size to about 1/4 because, from the side, he appears more like a square rather than a rectangle.

In other words, scaling him is even worse than say Ganondorf.

...I'm lost, why doesn't that video work?

Just youtube "brawl ridley mod". It's not the best fanmade Ridley, but it's still goofy looking enough to make people reconsider.
 

That's because Pikachu's resizing was very obviously done for the full and sole purpose of making him an appropriate combatant for the game, and Ridley is the only reason anyone ever argues that doing so would not be acceptable.

Between making Ridley playable but ruining his image, and keeping him nonplayable cameo/boss/hazard status but preserving his integrity, there are many people who choose the latter. It's not that I actively hate Ridley, but I choose to be a purist when it comes to Ridley.

Except for Other M Ridley. They can go ahead and butcher/revamp that. "Crazy... Crazy how something good can come out of something bad."

Bowser might be more open to interpretation, but it's not as if his transition to Smash Bros. was flawless either.  It is VERY noticeable how hunched over he is in Brawl, to the point where he actually stands shorter than most reasonably tall characters.

I'm not so sure anyone complained Bowser was too little, most likely because his size has been constantly reinterpreted.

Developers and players should consider a small stage with 4 Bowsers playing simultaneously. It'd only be much worse with Ridley...

So the people who request him aren't Metroid players?

I never said that. I simply stated that people who played Metroid games starring Ridley can't help but notice Ridley being massive.

You completely missed the point of my post: He SHOULDN'T, but in Brawl, he IS.  Brawl's Meta Ridley is considerably smaller than Brawl's Ridley.  Most likely this was done because of varying body proportions: Meta Ridley has a proportionately much larger wingspan, which leads to a smaller body size if you don't want his wings enveloping the entire screen.  You maintain that Ridley's size is consistent yet ignore how inconsistent his second-most-recent game appearance is within itself.  And why?  Strictly for gameplay and presentation.  Because we are after all talking about a game where dolls and trophies come to life and fight each other, not an in-universe crossover.

Sorry, but you're simply wrong. I've seen many Ridley debates, and I've never once seen anyone compared Brawl Ridley and Brawl Meta Ridley as being "VERY" different:

[Police Girl]

I notice when you show the Bowser comparisons you fail to show anything from the 3D games save Mario Tennis (Kart 64 doesn't count.)

You should've used an example from Sunshine where he was [tornado fang]ing immense.

[Soultrigger]

I was showing games mainly from pre-Melee. My point wasn't that there aren't huge incarnations of Bowser, but that there are plenty of incarnations similar to that of Smash before his Smash debut.

In other words, Smash didn't downsize Bowser. Bowser was already downsized.

EDIT: I just realized the Smash 4 Ridley scale picture I linked cheated. lol

[OBJECTION MAN]

If they really want to put Ridley in Smash Bros they will find a way to make him fit.

Thats really all there is to it...

[Soultrigger]

Yoshi reveal in 3... 2... 1...

[Police Girl]

Yoshi reveal in 3... 2... 1...

It surprises me that they waited this long to tell us that Yoshi's in the game. So what, they could coincide it with the 3DS game? The one that's releasing to scathing reviews?

I mean, no [parasitic bomb]. Nobody from the original Smash has been cut. The original 8 have been safe for ages, its usually just the full 12 that they like to keep ambiguous (Other than Luigi apparently.)/

[Phi]

Yoshi reveal in 3... 2... 1...

3... 2... 1... 404 Not Found

[Mirby]

I haven't seen that many scathing reviews of Yoshi's New Island. Maybe I'm not looking that much.

Anyways today's pic of the day is not Yoshi but this:

[Soultrigger]

Sakurai: *laughs*

[Phi]

The Villager: *laughs and murders the entire roster*

[Phi]

Phosphora is an assist trophy.

[Protoman Blues]

Heh, I was hoping she was an Assist Trophy, but that's fine too. Love her.

[Protoman Blues]

HAHAHAHA

[Quickman]

Still waiting for the Duck Hunt Dog.

And Mewtwo.

[Sakura Leic]

That thousand yard stare...

[Mirby]

Ah yes, the early April Fool's joke. Still think they should've worked on the model a bit more. Blech those eyes.