Topic: The Mario Kart Thread

[Bueno Excelente]

I'm glad. I have alot of fond memories of the game.

By the way, how does the original MK for the SNES stack up with the rest? I've admittedly played it once or twice, but don't really remember how it was. I've seen gameplay videos and such, but I remember some people saying that Super Circuit kinda brought back the original MK's style and level design (understandable, since Mode 7 all the way).

How is it nowadays?

[xnamkcor]

It's still the same.

[Protoman Blues]

The theme of double-person racing was frankly stupid, because you don't get to use weapons all that much to necessitate a whole gameplay style versed on it, and the FUN part of Mario Kart is racing WITH weapons. You take away the weapons, and it's just racing. With a guy next to you asking when it can be his turn and pressing a button once in awhile when you get a shooteable weapon. It's the very same thing as having an FPS where one player plays as a monkey on your back who just throws grenades when you get them. It was possibly the worst move they could have done.

I remember when it was hacked to play online. Man, that was fun. The only fun times I've had with the game, honestly. This was already the time when my family considered I was too grown up to have friends come over to play all the time. =P

And yes. The games are pretty fun, but they just don't really appeal to me anymore. Seeing that I've played a superior incarnation of these games way back then, playing them currently among friends feels cheap and stale. I play it socially, but I got overdosed two summers ago when i went to spend a couple of weeks at a beach house and the only thing everyone wanted to play was Mario Kart Wii. Mario Kart DS felt like a sort of remake of Mario Kart 64, but not really as fun. A few new gimmicks, and it was widely superior to Double Dash, but I only bought it because back when the DS had no good games except Mario stuff, I had to get something to be distracted with. =P

By the way, what's people's general opinion on Super Circuit? I never hear much talk about it, and it was the first MK game I owned, and didn't just go to a friend's house to play. Aside from Rainbow Road not being the ALL TIME FABULOUSNESS that it is in every other Mario Kart game, I really like it. Felt like the first GBA game to use the power the machine had.

I liked the idea behind it. Co-op racing had an appeal to it. The problem was it was executed poorly for reasons you just mentioned and without an option to not play that way. MKDS was not a MK64 remake, because the items are still MKDD based. It's more what Double Dash should've been with the option not to dual race.

And Super Circuit was pretty good.

By the way, how does the original MK for the SNES stack up with the rest? I've admittedly played it once or twice, but don't really remember how it was. I've seen gameplay videos and such, but I remember some people saying that Super Circuit kinda brought back the original MK's style and level design (understandable, since Mode 7 all the way).

How is it nowadays?

I still love the game. It plays differently and slower, but the gameplay was still fantastic. I think it's more challenging, just due to the shorter levels and such, plus no spinning green shell shield and everything. I can still play it with a friend 1 on 1 and have a lot of fun.

[Bueno Excelente]

I liked the idea behind it. Co-op racing had an appeal to it. The problem was it was executed poorly for reasons you just mentioned and without an option to not play that way. MKDS was not a MK64 remake, because the items are still MKDD based. It's more what Double Dash should've been with the option not to dual race.

And Super Circuit was pretty good.

I still love the game. It plays differently and slower, but the gameplay was still fantastic. I think it's more challenging, just due to the shorter levels and such, plus no spinning green shell shield and everything. I can still play it with a friend 1 on 1 and have a lot of fun.

Still, I don't really see the logic behind co-op racing. Only in races when you use alot of items, but even so, it takes away from the actual gameplay. I could see it working if there was a gun in the car you had to aim, or if you were in another car, but otherwise, why even have it there? Like I said, it limits the gameplay of one person, while boring the hell out of another.

Having played 64 today, I can actually say that it's got bigger races than other MK games. Or at least they feel much bigger than others.

[Fxeni]

Yeah, the coop mode in Double Dash does indeed suck. The VS modes work like they always used to though, each person picks two people and such. It isn't my favourite Mario Kart by any stretch, but I still like it more than MKWii. While the item balance was messed up, it still isn't nearly as bad as in MKWii.

[Protoman Blues]

Still, I don't really see the logic behind co-op racing. Only in races when you use alot of items, but even so, it takes away from the actual gameplay. I could see it working if there was a gun in the car you had to aim, or if you were in another car, but otherwise, why even have it there? Like I said, it limits the gameplay of one person, while boring the hell out of another.

Having played 64 today, I can actually say that it's got bigger races than other MK games. Or at least they feel much bigger than others.

I'll get more into it when I get home. Lol, I don't feel like typing it all out on my phone.

[Protoman Blues]

Okay, now that I'm home...

Like I said, the Double Dash system had potential. If I remember correctly, if a character held onto an item then switched, that character still got to keep that item, so it could've lead to a bit of strategy. Also, they could've added a few different modes like every lap you are forced to switch and stay that character, or make character switch points throughout the level, which could've made the party aspect of it a bit more chaotic & interesting. Or hell, like you mentioned, have the Weapons character have the ability to actually aim, which is a great idea. Since they are not driving, give them the ability to actually look around and aim their shells or peels. What they absolutely had to do was make a non co-op racing mode in which you can have a 4 way race. I feel that if you give people options, then it makes it more fun. Like with Smash Bros. Brawl and playing with or without items. Both methods are a lot of fun, but if one was prevalent over the other, that one mode might not be as fun anymore.

However, ultimately what we got wasn't all that well executed at all, and plus again, I hated the handling. Like Fxeni said, the item imbalance was still there and not as bad as in MKWii, but still there nonetheless. I think it had potential, but just did not deliver at all.

And MK64 definitely has bigger races. It's why I love the game so much. The tracks are long, big, and allow more room for success, failure, and pure MK douchebaggery.

[Bueno Excelente]

Okay, now that I'm home...

Like I said, the Double Dash system had potential. If I remember correctly, if a character held onto an item then switched, that character still got to keep that item, so it could've lead to a bit of strategy. Also, they could've added a few different modes like every lap you are forced to switch and stay that character, or make character switch points throughout the level, which could've made the party aspect of it a bit more chaotic & interesting. Or hell, like you mentioned, have the Weapons character have the ability to actually aim, which is a great idea. Since they are not driving, give them the ability to actually look around and aim their shells or peels. What they absolutely had to do was make a non co-op racing mode in which you can have a 4 way race. I feel that if you give people options, then it makes it more fun. Like with Smash Bros. Brawl and playing with or without items. Both methods are a lot of fun, but if one was prevalent over the other, that one mode might not be as fun anymore.

However, ultimately what we got wasn't all that well executed at all, and plus again, I hated the handling. Like Fxeni said, the item imbalance was still there and not as bad as in MKWii, but still there nonetheless. I think it had potential, but just did not deliver at all.

And MK64 definitely has bigger races. It's why I love the game so much. The tracks are long, big, and allow more room for success, failure, and pure MK douchebaggery.

I can understand the logic, but the item holding thing is purely a singleplayer gimmick for some gameplay strategy, while the "second player aiming" doesn't really work for races in which you don't really see the other characters all the time. In any game, you ideally never have the second player leave the action. It would make alot of sense if it was battle-only, but it was brought up as a full game mechanic. Which turned out really bad.

[Hypershell]

Thing is, Flash, Double Dash presented that mode as an option, not as a multiplayer mandate.  You can race in multiplayer with every player having their own kart (2 characters then to each player).  Nothing wrong with options, and that kind of "1-1/2 player action" deal can help open up the game for people who just aren't good at gaming.  So I won't say it's a bad thing.  You're right in that it's no substitute for a full multiplayer, but it wasn't presented as such.

I don't care about the other argument, but I'll just say this:

Snaking wouldn't be a [tornado fang]ing problem if the items were balanced. Bikes would also not be a [tornado fang]ing problem if the items were balanced. It wasn't a problem in MK64, and if it was, you just plain sucked. This is why every Mario Kart after MK64 has progressively gotten worse, because of how poorly the items are balanced. This is why no Mario Kart game will ever be as good as MK64, because they'll never go back to that item system again.

To be fair, snaking in pre-DS games, while possible, was MUCH harder to pull off and generally less effective.  In DS any idiot can snake, and everyone and their dog knows the ideal character/kart combinations for it (BALANCE FAILURE).

But I'll agree on item balancing.  I jump between 64, DD, and Wii a lot, and Wii has a unique way of generating extreme chaos while at the same time leaving you feeling relatively powerless.  Banana peels are worthless, the 2nd place racer gets garbage, and near every new power-up in the game either hits groups or causes an item drop.  My, how the mighty Triple Red Shell has fallen...

DoubleDash may not have item mechanics up to 64's level, but it was still decent, the game IMHO better than those MK's that followed (DS or Wii).  Blue Shells were excusable due to the generally moronic AI, and those signature items which were NOT nerfed versions of 64's items (Triple Shells, or the COMPLETELY POINTLESS Golden Mushroom) actually worked quite well.  It adds to the point of the 2-racers, mixing signature abilities and such.  And yes, as PB said, you can hold any item in reserve with your driver.  The idea was great, and I think had they taken the simple step of NOT having triple items juggled, and thus dropped on impact, it'd have worked even better.

The "disarm" mechanics are one of my biggest issues with recent kart games, really.  If you're going to do it, do it with ONE all-powerful-with-some-practice-to-master item, like Starman, not half the damn arsenal.

[Protoman Blues]

I can understand the logic, but the item holding thing is purely a singleplayer gimmick for some gameplay strategy, while the "second player aiming" doesn't really work for races in which you don't really see the other characters all the time. In any game, you ideally never have the second player leave the action. It would make alot of sense if it was battle-only, but it was brought up as a full game mechanic. Which turned out really bad.

That's my point though, in regards to the aiming. I'm no expert on programming, but I don't see why you couldn't have the weapons character have 360 turning ability, since he's not using his controls to drive. That way, it'd give both players something to do.

Thing is, Flash, Double Dash presented that mode as an option, not as a multiplayer mandate.  You can race in multiplayer with every player having their own kart (2 characters then to each player).  Nothing wrong with options, and that kind of "1-1/2 player action" deal can help open up the game for people who just aren't good at gaming.  So I won't say it's a bad thing.  You're right in that it's no substitute for a full multiplayer, but it wasn't presented as such.

To be fair, snaking in pre-DS games, while possible, was MUCH harder to pull off and generally less effective.  In DS any idiot can snake, and everyone and their dog knows the ideal character/kart combinations for it (BALANCE FAILURE).

But I'll agree on item balancing.  I jump between 64, DD, and Wii a lot, and Wii has a unique way of generating extreme chaos while at the same time leaving you feeling relatively powerless.  Banana peels are worthless, the 2nd place racer gets garbage, and near every new power-up in the game either hits groups or causes an item drop.  My, how the mighty Triple Red Shell has fallen...

DoubleDash may not have item mechanics up to 64's level, but it was still decent, the game IMHO better than those MK's that followed (DS or Wii).  Blue Shells were excusable due to the generally moronic AI, and those signature items which were NOT nerfed versions of 64's items (Triple Shells, or the COMPLETELY POINTLESS Golden Mushroom) actually worked quite well.  It adds to the point of the 2-racers, mixing signature abilities and such.  And yes, as PB said, you can hold any item in reserve with your driver.  The idea was great, and I think had they taken the simple step of NOT having triple items juggled, and thus dropped on impact, it'd have worked even better.

The "disarm" mechanics are one of my biggest issues with recent kart games, really.  If you're going to do it, do it with ONE all-powerful-with-some-practice-to-master item, like Starman, not half the damn arsenal.

No I'll admit, Snaking in the DS game can be all kinds of abused. It can in MK64 as well, at least I can abuse it, but yeah not as badly as in MKDS. Like I said though, it wouldn't be an issue if the items were balanced, if 2nd & 3rd place had anyway of stopping 1st place without the help of 4th or higher.

Oh yeah, I didn't even bring that up, but I 100% agree, Shellhead. Disarming items is quite possibly the worst thing they put in Mario Kart after MK64. If they're going to do it, then only the POW block should be able to, and even then I still don't like the idea that much.

[Bueno Excelente]

Thing is, Flash, Double Dash presented that mode as an option, not as a multiplayer mandate.  You can race in multiplayer with every player having their own kart (2 characters then to each player).  Nothing wrong with options, and that kind of "1-1/2 player action" deal can help open up the game for people who just aren't good at gaming.  So I won't say it's a bad thing.  You're right in that it's no substitute for a full multiplayer, but it wasn't presented as such.

To be fair, snaking in pre-DS games, while possible, was MUCH harder to pull off and generally less effective.  In DS any idiot can snake, and everyone and their dog knows the ideal character/kart combinations for it (BALANCE FAILURE).

But I'll agree on item balancing.  I jump between 64, DD, and Wii a lot, and Wii has a unique way of generating extreme chaos while at the same time leaving you feeling relatively powerless.  Banana peels are worthless, the 2nd place racer gets garbage, and near every new power-up in the game either hits groups or causes an item drop.  My, how the mighty Triple Red Shell has fallen...

DoubleDash may not have item mechanics up to 64's level, but it was still decent, the game IMHO better than those MK's that followed (DS or Wii).  Blue Shells were excusable due to the generally moronic AI, and those signature items which were NOT nerfed versions of 64's items (Triple Shells, or the COMPLETELY POINTLESS Golden Mushroom) actually worked quite well.  It adds to the point of the 2-racers, mixing signature abilities and such.  And yes, as PB said, you can hold any item in reserve with your driver.  The idea was great, and I think had they taken the simple step of NOT having triple items juggled, and thus dropped on impact, it'd have worked even better.

The "disarm" mechanics are one of my biggest issues with recent kart games, really.  If you're going to do it, do it with ONE all-powerful-with-some-practice-to-master item, like Starman, not half the damn arsenal.

I'm cool with options, really. But the double player mechanic crashed and burned in terms of giving the other player something to do. Present it with something like Mario Galaxy? Sure, some people like playing backseat and helping out in a few things. But it was done in Mario Kart, a game that doesn't really fit well with that mechanic, and I feel the overall game speed, fluidity and track design suffered because of it. Something like this shouldn't be touted as a fantastic multiplayer mechanic, and there should have been the option to race with classic karts, in adapted races.

And yes, I'll agree with the item thing. The item balance was at its perfect in MK64. Perfect balance for both fun and competitivity What we got today is all over the place.

[Dexter Dexter]

Hideki Konno's two cents on items in Mario Kart.

I think Mario Kart without items is a good idea...

[Protoman Blues]

And yes, I'll agree with the item thing. The item balance was at its perfect in MK64. Perfect balance for both fun and competitivity What we got today is all over the place.

SMK & MK64's item balancing & distribution are both perfect. I don't remember enough of MKSC to make an honest comparison, but I don't remember it being a problem in that game either.

Hideki Konno's two cents on items in Mario Kart.

I think Mario Kart without items is a good idea...

I would personally never play a Mario Kart without items, because I agree that Mario Kart without items is just not Mario Kart. HOWEVER, I am always a full believer in having options, so yeah, put a No-Items mode in the game.

Going back to the blue shell, it sounds like maybe [gamers] have some issues with it... I’m not trying to project or anything. I think in our next Mario Kart, we’ll be looking at the balance and I think we’ll come up with some answers and some solutions to make the game fresh and exciting as we move forward... I’m often asked, hey, in Mario Kart, could you please make a mode where there are no items. Let us race. But personally I think Mario Kart without items is not Mario Kart. Our goal, of course, is to keep the items in but just balance it well.

LoL, and here we are again. The problem is NOT the Spiny Shell. The problem is pretty much every other item. The items that have been gimped, the items that are now too powerful, the items that suck, the item distribution, the dropping of items, and so on. If you want to make the Blue Shell fair again, make it the MK64 Spike Shell again, the one that has the potential to hit EVERY player in it's path. Also, fix the goddamn lightning. If you can't run the tiny people over after shrinking them, then there's no point.

Overall though, here's hoping that they really look into balancing the items.

[Bueno Excelente]

A Mario Kart without items is just... well, racing. The items are what makes the game.

[Protoman Blues]

It would have the level obstacles, but I agree. The items, despite their imbalance, is really what makes Mario Kart games fun.

[Bueno Excelente]

Which is exactly why they must be balanced. A game with Mario Kart 64's item balance, tracks as big as that but more full of obstacles, twists and turns, and exploitable shortcuts, and the options that Mario Kart DS offers. Join all of the perfect stuff together to make something great.

[Dexter Dexter]

A Mario Kart without items is just... well, racing. The items are what makes the game.

If so, then...
Nintendo should really consider putting in an option where you choose which items are to be used in a race or battle or which are not to be used. What do you think?

[Protoman Blues]

Which is exactly why they must be balanced. A game with Mario Kart 64's item balance, tracks as big as that but more full of obstacles, twists and turns, and exploitable shortcuts, and the options that Mario Kart DS offers. Join all of the perfect stuff together to make something great.

Agreed.

The other thing I think they need to do is remove kart statistics. Have all the awesome looking carts & such, but keep the stats based on the character's weight class, essentially like SMK & MK64.

Also, as an added bonus, add in the same level of customization that ModNation Racers has. ModNation Racers' customization is excellent, both in terms of karts & tracks. There's NO reason why Mario Kart can't do the same thing and make it even better, due to having awesome Mario things, like pipes & rainbows and all that awesome Mario stuff!

If so, then...
Nintendo should really consider putting in an option where you choose which items are to be used in a race or battle or which are not to be used. What do you think?

That.......could be interesting. It would be fun, but I don't think they can do it for racing, because it would probably lead to unbalancing issues again. However, for Battle Mode, that could lead to some fun & silly battles. An ALL BANANA PEEL battle mode could be a lot of fun.

[Dexter Dexter]

An ALL BANANA PEEL battle mode could be a lot of fun.

That idea is so wicked that it made me lol a little. But yeah, now that I think about it, I don't think it could work in races.

Also, I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but I've got this to say to Nintendo:
[tornado fang] YOUR ALL-TRACKS-3-LAPS BULLSHIT!
But in all seriousness, my point is that tracks in Mario Kart need more variety, in terms of track length and number of laps, so long as they are proportional in some way to each other.

[Bueno Excelente]

Agreed.

The other thing I think they need to do is remove kart statistics. Have all the awesome looking carts & such, but keep the stats based on the character's weight class, essentially like SMK & MK64.

Also, as an added bonus, add in the same level of customization that ModNation Racers has. ModNation Racers' customization is excellent, both in terms of karts & tracks. There's NO reason why Mario Kart can't do the same thing and make it even better, due to having awesome Mario things, like pipes & rainbows and all that awesome Mario stuff!

That.......could be interesting. It would be fun, but I don't think they can do it for racing, because it would probably lead to unbalancing issues again. However, for Battle Mode, that could lead to some fun & silly battles. An ALL BANANA PEEL battle mode could be a lot of fun.

Those are interesting ideas. I'd LOVE IT if there was a Mario Kart mode in which there were green shells ALL AROUND, bouncing around, completely unpredictable.

Also, don't you guys think that the tracks should have more Mario gimmicks? More pipes, more piranha plants all over, more traps and moving platforms, more constant dangers and rewards. Some tracks seem to be way too empty. I'm not saying to do this to all tracks, but have the game put you in constant danger in some of the tracks. And constant movement with other stuff.

[Fxeni]

I miss the days where Boo and Starman were the only way to steal/erase items. I mean, some of the new items have a good concept on paper, but they really need tweaking. Except Cloud AIDS, [tornado fang] that item.

[Dexter Dexter]

Also, don't you guys think that the tracks should have more Mario gimmicks? More pipes, more piranha plants all over, more traps and moving platforms, more constant dangers and rewards. Some tracks seem to be way too empty. I'm not saying to do this to all tracks, but have the game put you in constant danger in some of the tracks. And constant movement with other stuff.

Oh yeah, I also think this should be a major factor in MK3DS. Make tracks challenging with all sorts of traps and gimmicks. Not too much to the point where it becomes overwhelmingly unplayable, but not too little to the point where the track you're racing on becomes a regular track like the Indy.

[Protoman Blues]

Those are interesting ideas. I'd LOVE IT if there was a Mario Kart mode in which there were green shells ALL AROUND, bouncing around, completely unpredictable.

Also, don't you guys think that the tracks should have more Mario gimmicks? More pipes, more piranha plants all over, more traps and moving platforms, more constant dangers and rewards. Some tracks seem to be way too empty. I'm not saying to do this to all tracks, but have the game put you in constant danger in some of the tracks. And constant movement with other stuff.

That was the beauty of MK64 Battle Mode on Block Fort. If you fell to the bottom, you ran the risk of constant green shells bouncing around! 

As for the Mario gimmick tracks & more danger, that's one thing I thought MKDS really excelled at, in terms of their level designs, and kind of strayed away from in MKWii. I'd love to see more levels like that in MK3DS, as well as the ability to customize your own tracks.

I miss the days where Boo and Starman were the only way to steal/erase items. I mean, some of the new items have a good concept on paper, but they really need tweaking. Except Cloud AIDS, [tornado fang] that item.

As do we all. And yeah, Cloud AIDS needs to [tornado fang]ing go. It's AWFUL, ESPECIALLY IF 2ND & 3RD PLACE ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT GET IT. At the very very least, make the item where you can CHOOSE to activate it, but I'm in favor of removing it completely and bringing back the Boo.

[Bueno Excelente]

Oh yeah, I also think this should be a major factor in MK3DS. Make tracks challenging with all sorts of traps and gimmicks. Not too much to the point where it becomes overwhelmingly unplayable, but not too little to the point where the track you're racing on becomes a regular track like the Indy.

That was the beauty of MK64 Battle Mode on Block Fort. If you fell to the bottom, you ran the risk of constant green shells bouncing around! 

As for the Mario gimmick tracks & more danger, that's one thing I thought MKDS really excelled at, in terms of their level designs, and kind of strayed away from in MKWii. I'd love to see more levels like that in MK3DS, as well as the ability to customize your own tracks.

As do we all. And yeah, Cloud AIDS needs to [tornado fang]ing go. It's AWFUL, ESPECIALLY IF 2ND & 3RD PLACE ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT GET IT. At the very very least, make the item where you can CHOOSE to activate it, but I'm in favor of removing it completely and bringing back the Boo.

Not just that, but sometimes, the worlds we go to could have some comebacks of lesser known Mario games. How about using stuff from Mario Land 1 and 2? Or hell, characters like E. Gadd or Captain Syrup.

Other games with similar cool gimmicks came along. Split/Second has really good scenario destruction capabilities for stopping upcoming racers, something that could be used in MK. As well as Blur, that features both the offensive and defensive half of the star split. Not saying it's a good idea in the Mario Kart context, but maybe it should happen for certain items and effects.

[Solar]

So, in short, what Nintendo needs to do to make Mario Kart totally awesome again is

-Better item balancing
-Get rid of cloud AIDS
-Some better track designs
-Get rid of cloud AIDS
-Bring back the good old battle mode (DD's/DS's balloon stealing mechanic should stay though, hell, IMO just bring back DS's battle mode along with the classic maps from 64 etc.)
-Get rid of cloud AIDS

Also, I still say we need more tracks like 64's Yoshi's Valley but ones that have more than one actual viable road (was there more than one in Yoshi's Valley? Because I definitely can't think of more than one).

Also, fix the goddamn lightning. If you can't run the tiny people over after shrinking them, then there's no point.

This so [tornado fang]ing much. I can't even find a way to describe my sadness when I found out that they took that out.