Topic: Sonic the Hedgehog 4 (Wii, PS3, 360, iPhone)

[Protoman Blues]

Platformers these days seem to do that a lot.

New Super Mario Bros., both DS and Wii, are especially guilty of this.

To be fair, the Mario franchise has been doing it since SMB3/SMW

[Satoryu]

So I decided not to wait and buy it. And beat it. This is a really fun game. There are some things people are going to nitpick over, namely Sonic's momentum and air travel, but once you get used to it I don't think it ain't bad.

[Rayl]

His momentum i got used to well within the first act and his air travel wasn't a problem at all for me.

Also I didn't know about any of the little special stage tricks so i had to go through levels multiple times if i screwed a stage up >_> Mind you i did the 7th special stage on my first attempt, it was just the 4th, 5th and 6th stages that i found to be total ass.

I beat the game fairly easily but not without running into a few deaths (Mostly the Labyrinth Zone boss) and the final boss annoyed me a little but only because when it came down to his last phase i thought i couldn't go on the offensive so i ended up dying :p But hey the game is solid i've very few nitpicks with it and i can't wait until Episode 2.

[HokutoNoBen]

All I can say? I'm damn glad that I was able to play the demo on a friend's PS3 yesterday. Even there, it was practically twisting my arm to take the controller, with my friends saying "Go on, for old time's sake! It's your Birthday, after all, Ben!" and etc. Some Birthday surprise.

If nothing else, it was enough to make sure that not even downloading the demo was worth my time, much less actually doling out the cash for the full game.

[KyoKusanagi]

I'm glad to see that it's getting better reception over here, as opposed to Sonic Retro. Someone please tell me that it's possible to diagnose Sonic fans with a severe case of bipolar disorder. (Case and point: saying Sonic 2006 is better than Sonic 4) Sonic fans are crazy! 

[Police Girl]

All I can say? I'm damn glad that I was able to play the demo on a friend's PS3 yesterday. Even there, it was practically twisting my arm to take the controller, with my friends saying "Go on, for old time's sake! It's your Birthday, after all, Ben!" and etc. Some Birthday surprise.

If nothing else, it was enough to make sure that not even downloading the demo was worth my time, much less actually doling out the cash for the full game.

What exactly don't you like about it?

[Hypershell]

Ben has ABSOLUTELY ZERO faith in new-age Sonic.  Frankly if he had liked it I'd have been very surprised.

I think there are some fans for whom Sega is simply beyond redemption.

Platformers these days seem to do that a lot.

New Super Mario Bros., both DS and Wii, are especially guilty of this.

As was said above SMB has been doing it since 3.

Further, Sonic did this in STH3 as well, even more so in S3&K.  Glowing sphere bonus stage is ludicrously broken.

I have no real desire nor aversion to seeing the game's Game Over screen.  To me there is little relation between challenge and fun, and when you're reasonably good at most platformers, extra lives basically become collector's items anyway.  For a Sonic/Mario game, I just see it as a matter of how many bones they want to throw you while you're still learning.

I'm glad to see that it's getting better reception over here, as opposed to Sonic Retro. Someone please tell me that it's possible to diagnose Sonic fans with a severe case of bipolar disorder. (Case and point: saying Sonic 2006 is better than Sonic 4) Sonic fans are crazy! 

I've long subscribed to that ever since Heroes, frankly, although that was more a few game reviewers than the fans in general.

Secret Rings/Black Knight is another one that mystifies me.  Okay, you don't like BK's concept, fine, but technically speaking its controls are in nearly every way superior to its predecessor.  Thrusting homing attacks were about all Secret Rings offered that didn't at some point feel awkward; backwards movement, brake button, near every jump requiring charging, and the opposite movement sensitivity extremes presented in your Skill list, it all took a bit of getting used to.

[Police Girl]

Ben has ABSOLUTELY ZERO faith in new-age Sonic.

What I'm saying is that he actually played the Demo, but described nothing wrong about it. Just giving the basic "Oh my it sucks so bad" routine.

Oh, apparently the music in the Wii version is different from the 360/PS3 versions in that its sequenced over being WAV files.

Of course, most Sonic tunes turn out well when Sequenced (S&K Collection, anybody?) so it isn't bad sounding.

[Protoman Blues]

Secret Rings/Black Knight is another one that mystifies me.  Okay, you don't like BK's concept, fine, but technically speaking its controls are in nearly every way superior to its predecessor.  Thrusting homing attacks were about all Secret Rings offered that didn't at some point feel awkward; backwards movement, brake button, near every jump requiring charging, and the opposite movement sensitivity extremes presented in your Skill list, it all took a bit of getting used to.

The reason I preferred Secret Rings was because, to me, it just felt like a different 3-D Sonic game, and I preferred the handling of the controls. Yeah, moving backwards sucked & moving from rail to rail was annoying, but other than that I really liked it. I'm not saying the controls are better or worse than Black Knight, just that I preferred it more.

What I'm saying is that he actually played the Demo, but described nothing wrong about it. Just giving the basic "Oh my it sucks so bad" routine.

I dunno, I think he's been very clear as to why he wouldn't like the game before. After seeing Cephi stream it, I can see why.

[Satoryu]

A little while ago I got the achievement for beating the final zone without taking damage. Wow that was hard. I only have one more achievement to get, the one for killing 1000 enemies. I'll play the game many more times in the future, so that will happen before I know it.

[HokutoNoBen]

What I'm saying is that he actually played the Demo, but described nothing wrong about it. Just giving the basic "Oh my it sucks so bad" routine.

Like Blues has stated, there's not too many pages that have gone by in this topic where I didn't mention my disgust with this game, especially in its "young adult" and "middle-age" page numbers.

But the gist? It all boils down to physics. For some people, perhaps, Sonic, as a character, is enough to get them to support a game, regardless of quality. That just speaks more to the notion that they value the character, more than the game play itself. That was never the case for me. I fell in love with the original Sega Genesis/CD anthology of games, because they had great level design and physics that worked well with the character's main concepts, that being momentum-based speed, rolling and platforming.

In essence, Sonic 4 spits on everything that made the original games what they were (yet directly invokes them, by being "Sonic 4"), by why of implementing wack-ass physics. And no matter how much the developers try hide it behind homages, throw-backs and re-using various enemy types/boss fights, my heart is not moved when the game doesn't play anything like those classic titles.

Case in point: Why is that I'm SLOWING down when I'm rolling along, instead of picking up speed? That kind of [parasitic bomb] didn't happen in the original series.

And then of course, things like this can still happen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmYjg9sa5bw

So yeah, there-in lies my beef with "new Sonic".

[Police Girl]

Like Blues has stated, there's not too many pages that have gone by in this topic where I didn't mention my disgust with this game, especially in its "young adult" and "middle-age" page numbers.

But the gist? It all boils down to physics. For some people, perhaps, Sonic, as a character, is enough to get them to support a game, regardless of quality. That just speaks more to the notion that they value the character, more than the game play itself. That was never the case for me. I fell in love with the original Sega Genesis/CD anthology of games, because they had great level design and physics that worked well with the character's main concepts, that being momentum-based speed, rolling and platforming.

In essence, Sonic 4 spits on everything that made the original games what they were (yet directly invokes them, by being "Sonic 4"), by why of implementing wack-ass physics. And no matter how much the developers try hide it behind homages, throw-backs and re-using various enemy types/boss fights, my heart is not moved when the game doesn't play anything like those classic titles.

Case in point: Why is that I'm SLOWING down when I'm rolling along, instead of picking up speed? That kind of [parasitic bomb] didn't happen in the original series.

And then of course, things like this can still happen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmYjg9sa5bw

So yeah, there-in lies my beef with "new Sonic".

Oh right, thats pretty much the only thing I didn't like (Along with the weak-ass mid-air homing attack from unleashed and the rebound from the homing attack. Also those famous dimps 1 Million foot drops.). Casino street was painful for me at that one point with the classic style bowl.

Besides, some people are already hacking the [parasitic bomb] out of it at Sonic Retro. So you may have your wish of "Classic physics".

Doesn't mean you'll play it though.

Also, anybody try collecting all the rings in the ending sequence?

[Ephidiel]

now i have a theory
collect all 36 rings in the final stage  and collect all rings in the ending to turn supersonic in the ending

[CephiYumi]

I dunno, I think he's been very clear as to why he wouldn't like the game before. After seeing Cephi stream it, I can see why.

I made the game look bad? ; ;  This was not my intent

[Protoman Blues]

I made the game look bad? ; ;  This was not my intent

Not at all, Cephi darling. I merely meant that you showed some of the lack of momentum gameplay & physics problems and such that Ben has an issue with. LoL, if anything, you made the game look super easy! 

[Police Girl]

now i have a theory
collect all 36 rings in the final stage  and collect all rings in the ending to turn supersonic in the ending

Actually, from what I've heard, you just need to collect all the rings in the ending sequence.

Collecting them without the emeralds yields the classic Sonic 2 Ending pose where Sonic punches the air.

Doing it on the 360 Gives you clothing for your avatar.

BEHOLD:

[Ephidiel]

omg its HumanSonic

[Waifu]

omg its HumanSonic

I am not surprised by this, I had seen many human!Sonics some good and some horribly wrong.

[Satoryu]

Well it looks better than the Sonic Sackboy, that's for sure.

And then of course, things like this can still happen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmYjg9sa5bw

Horse.
[parasitic bomb].
People complain about this all the time, and yet it's NEVER happened to me. Not in 4, not in Rush, NEVER. If you get what's in that video, I'm convinced YOU'RE doing something wrong.

The physics are fine to me. I can see why people will hate, but I learned them quickly, and only after 2 days it feels natural to play. I wouldn't change a thing about the gameplay, actually. The only things I can say I would've liked in the game are:

- When on Time Attack mode, include an option to proceed to the next stage. Having to back to the stage select after every stage is a inconvenient.
- When registering your times to the leaderboard (the 360 one anyway, dunno about the others), you have to register for each stage individually. A mass register for all stages at once would have made sense.
- A replay feature like MM10's would've been AWESOME.

[STM]

Sorry, but I'm going to have to go with the "physics needs work" people here. In Casino Street Zone, there was a part where I was in a U bend. I managed to get out of it not by rolling around back and forth to gain speed (since that doesn't work at all, which it should,) but by walking--not running--up the thing.

This was not one of those little ones, too. It was a pretty tall wall.

I mean, I've adjusted to them enough to get all 12 trophies no problem, but there's still no denying that, if they at least want to get the feel of the original physics, they need more work as far as rolling goes (which shouldn't have a speed cap while running should) deceleration on slopes isn't as drastic and general air momentum.

[Satoryu]

I know the point you're talking about, and I did try to roll up it at first. So I instead ran up the left to build speed, then ran up and over the right, never had a problem again. Perhaps trying to roll up was muscle memory from the many halfpipes in Metroid Prime?

[Fxeni]

Nah, The rolling up was usually effective in the old games for those types of sections. I've only played the demo so far, and to be perfectly honest the physics don't feel the same, running up those curves tends to feel rather awkward somehow. Not to say this automatically makes it a bad game, but I can see why people might not like it.

[Kieran]

Okay, after playing through the demo and trying it on every single slope I could find, there is no possible way to make Sonic just walk up an incline or around a loop.  You still need to build up momentum, so I don't see what the complaining is about.

That said, yes, the spin feels weird.  They've capped your speed when spinning apparently in an attempt to make you actually RUN more, which is certainly the exact opposite of the Genesis games.  I don't really like it but I'm not going to say it's a game breaker.

[Hypershell]

Caved in and downloaded this for Wii.  Cleared Splash Hill, working on second zone.

I'm not noticing this rolling speed-cap everyone's talking about, wondering if it's a version-specific thing?  Rolling speed handles fine for me.  And I had absolutely no trouble rolling up the walls of Casino Street half-pipes as STM described.  Music is growing on me.  Levels are cool.  Hey, it's 2D Sonic, and it's not *NEARLY* as God-awful broken as Rivals.  And it does feel a bit more "classic" than Rush, even with the homing attack.  So I'm thankful.

I HAVE seen Sonic walking in place on inclines as in the video Ben linked.  Happens when you jump and land on 'em, and it happened to me about three times in my first stage.  That said, it's *EASY* to jump out of.  It doesn't "trap" you, or break the gameplay, it doesn't even stall you nearly as badly as trying to jump off a hill in the Genesis games.  It's just an oddity that's sad to watch.  But I'm not going to lose sleep over such things, since even the Genesis games were not exactly shining examples of platform physics (got stuck in a wall many times, I did).

So far I like the game, but, I do have a few gripes:

1. Whose bright idea was it completely kill the force of momentum while you're in mid-air?  If you release the D-pad in the air, Sonic stops almost instantly.  It's awkward and it makes precision movements difficult.  You can adjust, but it's definitely not the way Sonic should feel.

2. The screen is zoomed in too far.  Genesis games were really pushing it with how much viewing area you need to react when Sonic's running as fast as he does.  Maybe widescreen mode has it better (and if it does, somebody should have brought up the "letterbox" approach), but for those of us on a 4:3, STH4 does not give you enough visibility.

3. By the third Special Stage, words could not possibly describe how much I loathe them.  Whether by tilt or by D-Pad, they control horribly.  You feel completely helpless in the face of bumpers, and when they are positioned THREE [tornado fang]ing INCHES away from exit-spheres, one can't help but rage a little.  Timer sucks, but at least you have Retry abuse for that.

4. I still think $15 is too expensive for a "license to play" a 4-Zone fraction of a game.  If Sega hadn't embargoed Super Sonic in stages for the last 16 freaking years, I probably wouldn't have gotten this.

[Jazz Shaking]

Nah, The rolling up was usually effective in the old games for those types of sections. I've only played the demo so far, and to be perfectly honest the physics don't feel the same, running up those curves tends to feel rather awkward somehow. Not to say this automatically makes it a bad game, but I can see why people might not like it.

This video demonstrates all the physics issues people have with this game. The physics need improvement for future episodes.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nDRsjiXiMo&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]