Topic: Sonic the Hedgehog 4 (Wii, PS3, 360, iPhone)

[Bueno Excelente]

Spoiler tag for conclusion because I'm beyond giving a [parasitic bomb], and I'm not gonna subject the rest of the people on the topic to this either.

[spoiler]Hm, that was some seriously big editing after I had replied to your post in the first place. But sure, if you suddenly care, I'm not gonna sit here looking like a [tornado fang]ing idiot.

Now, I do maintain that people should reply to an entire post while debating, because that is the whole point about debates. Discussing whole issues, not just leaving [parasitic bomb] behind. If you don't feel like talking about this or that, you can simply say "I do not feel like talking about this or that, so I'll agree or disagree with you in this or that thing and we'll leave it at that", and reply to what you want to reply. Hell, do you think I want to reply to all of the bullshit that you feed me so many times? You are an annoying little [parasitic bomb], what makes you think I like to refute every single one of your arguments all of the time? I do it because I'm bored, because I simply like hopeless debates online, and because I think that in ANY debate, you at least owe the other person enough respect to pay attention to what they're saying. That is the same respect I give anyone else I'm talking to, like them or not. So when you fail to do that, you're essencially saying "What you said right now, I care as much as I care about a dog turd on the street. So I'm gonna pretend it doesn't [tornado fang]ing exist".

The REASON I criticize your debate methods in the first place, is because when you completely disregard the arguments you think you're losing ground on, and instead simply pretend they never happened, and make your new post simply expanding on the stuff you think you're right on, what the [tornado fang] makes you think the other person is about to take that [parasitic bomb]? That is my problem with debating with you. You sucked the fun out of a form of entertainment by being egocentric, and cutting everything on the table, except for the [parasitic bomb] YOU want to discuss, halfway through the conversation. I went with it at first, because it was originally fun, and I wanted to keep having a good debate. But when you keep doing it without any kind of warning, it's not just wrong, it's disrespectful and against the point of having a debate in the first place.


I'm ending this [parasitic bomb]. Back on topic please.[/spoiler]

Does anyone think we can expect mine cart controls beyond hopping in and out of them? I'd actually like to see stuff like rail-switching. But maybe it'd be too complicated.

[Hypershell]

I apologize for the heavy edit, but I saw my post as worth expanding and you responded faster than I expected.  I saw no point in re-editing a separate post since your response was obviously poking fun anyway.  This is RPM, nobody would have thought lesser of you for ignoring a wall of text.  We do that all the time.

For somebody who keeps reiterating how the internet is supposed to be pointless, you're awfully hung up about "proper debating procedure".  I don't consider internet message boards a formal event; they are informal discussions, and as such subject to personal whims, the same as chatting with some guy you pass in a hallway.  You want to argue with a rule book, take it to an assembly with a mediator.  If you want a respectful casual conversation, then give respect.  That means refraining from mundane personal criticisms and not exploding into swear-ridden rants.

On most/all message boards in general, it is considered poor conduct, and at times outright spam, to simply say "I agree" or "I disagree" without expanding as to why.  It falls into the "one-word reply" category:  It contributes nothing to the discussion and annoys the other members.  If you cannot offer a unique angle, if all you can say has already been said, then you're better to not comment.

It is further impractical to expand on each and every point in every post one responds to; the posts grow without end, and any veteran RPMer will tell you that quite a few wall-of-text discussions which I have been part of have grown out of hand even with my "debating" as you have currently experienced.  Needless to say, to comb every post as meticulously as you insist is out of the question.  Just ask Marshmallow Man.

You have interesting timing about when to call it quits.  In my last post, I made an effort to resolve your qualms against me, and asked you for a specific example as to what I neglected in my reply which you claim did not address your full post.  You've ignored that.  If you're going to claim that I've ignored you, yet cannot provide an example as to how, then your comments are truly meaningless.

[Gaia]

I apologize for the heavy edit, but I saw my post as worth expanding and you responded faster than I expected.  I saw no point in re-editing a separate post since your response was obviously poking fun anyway.

For somebody who keeps reiterating how the internet is supposed to be pointless, you're awfully hung up about "proper debating procedure".  I don't consider internet message boards a formal event; they are informal discussions, and as such subject to personal whims, the same as chatting with some guy you pass in a hallway.  You want to argue with a rule book, take it to an assembly with a mediator.  If you want a respectful casual conversation, then give respect.  That means refraining from mundane personal criticisms and not exploding into swear-ridden rants.

On most/all message boards in general, it is considered poor conduct, and at times outright spam, to simply say "I agree" or "I disagree" without expanding as to why.  It falls into the "one-word reply" category:  It contributes nothing to the discussion and annoys the other members.  For that reason, I will not address those points for which I cannot offer a unique angle.

It is further impractical to expand on each and every point in every post one responds to; the posts grow without end, and any veteran on RPMer will tell you that quite a few wall-of-text discussions which I have been part of have grown out of hand even with my "debating" as you have currently experienced.  Needless to say, to comb every post as meticulously as you insist is out of the question.  Just ask Marshmallow Man.

You have interesting timing about when to call it quits.  In my last post, I made an effort to resolve your qualms against me, and asked you for a specific example as to what I neglected in my reply which you claim did not address your full post.  You've ignored that.  If you're going to claim that I've ignored you, yet cannot provide an example as to how, then your comments are truly meaningless.

Okay, you can drop the rock now, please.

I'm intrested if the mincart can bring back the memories of the DKC games. It looks a nostalgic homage now that I look at it.

[Hypershell]

That does bring back memories.  Not sure what they can do that would be unique compared to DKC, though.

I'm more concerned about the lighting.  If it's just for dramatic effect, fine, but if the limited visibility winds up requiring tip-toeing through the stage, it'll really break the "Sonic" play style.

[Protoman Blues]

Ahhhhh Sonic threads. So very predictable!

I'm intrested if the mincart can bring back the memories of the DKC games. It looks a nostalgic homage now that I look at it.

It can't, because the DKC games are superior platformer games! 

[HokutoNoBen]

It can't, because the DKC games are superior platformer games! 

Well, that much goes without saying.

Any way, more lols to be had thanks to everyone's FAVORITE guy, Takashi Iizuka!

DC: Back when Sonic 4 was still known as Project Needlemouse, Sega stated the game would have speed would not be found by hitting a boost button, but rather through momentum. The opposite of this appeared at E3, where the levels (though a work in progress) contained a good number of artificial boosts. Is creating an appropriate sense of speed a major challenge for the development team?

TI: I think there were an misunderstanding here, what I tried to say was classic Sonic series would not use those actions that were featured in ‘Sonic Rush’ series and which is for example activating boost by charging up the gauge and push button… I believe instant execrations by gimmicks like booster are important elements to keep the better game pacing.

DC: Speaking of changes, any insight as to why Sonic's homing attack has been incorporated into Sonic 4’s design?

TI: I thought Homing Attack is effective action also for classic game design to produce good paced speedy gameplay. Also, we are able to create skyline route and try instant judgment and control to expand the variation of level design by adding this action. Please try this game and experience this.

- http://digitalchumps.com/gamingnews/86-unofficial/5890-interview-sonic-teams-takashi-iizuka.html

Every time this speaks...!


Any way, another pal of mine go to try the game at PAX. And his thoughts...?

I played Sonic 4 yesterday. Didn't some of you say you could play through without using the homing attack? Because you were wrong. Very wrong. I didn't have to even think while playing the game.

Sonic 4 is Sonic Advance 4

Yeah, dream is dead in my eyes. 

[Satoryu]

From what I remember from the leak, you did have to use the Homing Attack in the later stages. But it didn't look necessary early on.

[Protoman Blues]

Yeah, dream is dead in my eyes. 

Well, Donkey Kong Country Returns will be out eventually! 

[Gaia]

Yeah, dream is dead in my eyes. 

This One Gamer that can't (and never will be) be pleased, unless it has the frikkin' nintendo label on it. Talk about fanboy and chum-chum.

[Klavier Gavin]

Sonic 4 is Sonic Advance 4

|:

Click to enlarge, btw.

[Gaia]

|:

Click to enlarge, btw.

I love how the "5" part came out of nowhere, where 4 doesn't exist. 

[Bueno Excelente]

Bitchers gonna [sonic slicer]. Game'll be fine.

[Satoryu]

I love how the "5" part came out of nowhere, where 4 doesn't exist. 

I guess he means Rush is SAdv4? But then wouldn't that make Rush Adventure SAdv5 and this Sadv6?

But then again, Advance might as well have been Sonic 4, making this Sonic 9.

[HokutoNoBen]

When he and I talked through another medium briefly, Fire said "4". So I just assumed it was fine to alter his quote a bit. 

This One Gamer that can't (and never will be) be pleased, unless it has the frikkin' nintendo label on it. Talk about fanboy and chum-chum.

Oh, really? The "fanboy" card, now? I feel so honored~!

But seriously, no, the main thing is that I'm tired of Sega (and Capcom too, it looks like) seemingly have some sort of train wreck mentality when it comes to screwing their base out of what could have been great (or in some other cases, even better) things.

For Sega specifically, it's these things that make you wonder if they actively set out to sabotage themselves and hate the money that they could be making. Not including the Sonic 4 debacle, we also have such examples relating to how they've been screwing themselves and their fans over. Such as...

* How they've marketed the RGG/Yakuza series in the West over the last few years, including taking out perfectly good content out of the localization of the third game, in spite of how such was in the LAST games they localized

* How they took it upon themselves to screw up the PS3 build of Bayonetta, in spite of how they knew damn well that the PS3 build was the version that was going to sell the most in Japan

* How they went and put the sequel/follow-up to Valkyria Chronicles on the PSP, which was not the best move that could be made for the franchise; what a way to screw up the hype build-up the PS3 version received in the West after the price drop, by putting the very next game in the series exclusively on the PSP, the console that's effectively dead in America

* How they've allowed Virtua Fighter to become an even more obscure brand name fighting game than even the likes of SNK's wares. Included in this stance would be screwing the original PS3 buyers out of the update that contained netcode, and it's any body's guess if we'll actually get Final Showdown any time soon, if ever

* How they basically handed Capcom and Bandai-Namco's "Gundam Vs." series an easy, uncontested win in arcades, in the form of how Sega poorly ran the Virtual ON brand, and then basically sat on the franchise for the better portion of a decade. Now they want to try and sow the seeds of revival by....porting 10 year old games exclusively on the 360. Yeah....

* How they screwed themselves out of the good partnership that they once had with ASW; losing access to 2D Guilty Gear arcade update revenue has easily hurt Sega much more than it has ASW



Again, is it really any wonder why guys like me and many are pissed at how Sega is running their "ship", as a whole? This goes far beyond the "Sonic 4" thing. Though in its own way, it's a clear-cut indicator of just how out of touch Sega, like some other Japanese companies, are truly out of touch.   

[Protoman Blues]

* How they basically handed Capcom and Bandai-Namco's "Gundam Vs." series an easy, uncontested win in arcades, in the form of how Sega poorly ran the Virtual ON brand, and then basically sat on the franchise for the better portion of a decade. Now they want to try and sow the seeds of revival by....porting 10 year old games exclusively on the 360. Yeah....

Sigh. This still makes PB sad! 

[Bueno Excelente]

I can't counter all of your points due to not being familiarized with some of them. But I will answer on what I know.

- Being a BIG fan of the Ryu Ga Gotoku/Yakuza franchise, I completely agree on how the franchise should have more attention over here. There isn't a very big fanbase for the game, but it is an incredible franchise that deserves way more attention than it has. If the first two games could be widely accepted as underappreciated hits online, they would gain at least a bigger fan following, and possibly Sega's attention. As far as the content they removed from the localized Yakuza 3... I've played the taken-out-content, and I can honestly say that this is a completely overblown issue everywhere. Uninformed people keep spreading that Sega took out a third of the game, and that people shouldn't buy Yakuza 3 for that reason alone. The GAME itself is fine. They took out a few unimportant missions, a japanese trivia game (which involves stuff from JAPAN, which I don't think would travel well) and they removed the hostess' minigames, which honestly, were something to throw away and forget about, every single second I played of them. Yakuza is a franchise that likes to put in too much stuff in its games, and as any other game with minigames with different gameplay which involve using its regular engine, many don't travel well. This is one of them, something which is quite popular in japanese culture, but which I think even the most dedicated weeaboos have a bit of trouble loving.
- Playing the PS3 build of Bayonetta, along with the patch they provided, the game doesn't really seem that bad. Sure, there are a few slowdown and texture issues, but I imagine this must have been a somehow rushed port. They're not commiting the same mistake with Vanquish, as far as I can tell. So they learned from their blunder.
- Valkyria Chronicles on the PSP was most likely a Japan-centric decision, as the PSP is quite alive over there, and they wanted to cash in on the Monster Hunter multiplayer craze that goes around there, like they did with the Phantasy Star Portables. The game IS very good, and it didn't have quite alot of success on the PS3, so maybe it'll do better over there on the PSP. Not to mention we're getting the game quite early when we think about how long the first game took between its japanese and western release dates. I'm not saying this is good, just that it's not as bad as it seems.

Honestly, tl,dr, I am AGREEING with you. These are big mistakes by Sega. I just think that they're a bit blown out of proportion.

[Gaia]

by putting the very next game in the series exclusively on the PSP, the console that's effectively dead in America

By effectively having a "gangsta kid" advertising a bunch of medicore games (cutting out ModNation, never played that) rather than far, superior titles for the PSP? Yeah. The PSP's library here is meh compared to it's rival handheld. Hell, I even use it as a commercial-free DVD player by porting my movies into it.  

Microsoft, if you are hearing this: GET YOUR ASS INTO GEAR AND MAKE A HANDHELD OF YOUR OWN!

[Bueno Excelente]

By effectively having a "gangsta kid" advertising a bunch of medicore games (cutting out ModNation, never played that) rather than far, superior titles for the PSP? Yeah. The PSP's library here is meh compared to it's rival handheld. Hell, I even use it as a commercial-free DVD player by porting my movies into it.  

Microsoft, if you are hearing this: GET YOUR ASS INTO GEAR AND MAKE A HANDHELD OF YOUR OWN!

Funnily enough, I love the PSP's library and what it's brought as a console so far.

...but I think that with the gangsta kid, the "alliwantforchristmasisapsp.com" thing, and the "carpet you can watch outside, [shadow runner]" ads, the PSP is by far the one console with the worst, most suicidal and [tornado fang]'d up PR I have ever seen.

[HokutoNoBen]

I can't counter all of your points due to not being familiarized with some of them. But I will answer on what I know.

- Being a BIG fan of the Ryu Ga Gotoku/Yakuza franchise, I completely agree on how the franchise should have more attention over here. There isn't a very big fanbase for the game, but it is an incredible franchise that deserves way more attention than it has. If the first two games could be widely accepted as underappreciated hits online, they would gain at least a bigger fan following, and possibly Sega's attention. As far as the content they removed from the localized Yakuza 3... I've played the taken-out-content, and I can honestly say that this is a completely overblown issue everywhere. Uninformed people keep spreading that Sega took out a third of the game, and that people shouldn't buy Yakuza 3 for that reason alone. The GAME itself is fine. They took out a few unimportant missions, a japanese trivia game (which involves stuff from JAPAN, which I don't think would travel well) and they removed the hostess' minigames, which honestly, were something to throw away and forget about, every single second I played of them. Yakuza is a franchise that likes to put in too much stuff in its games, and as any other game with minigames with different gameplay which involve using its regular engine, many don't travel well. This is one of them, something which is quite popular in japanese culture, but which I think even the most dedicated weeaboos have a bit of trouble loving.

See, I would agree with you, if they didn't already have a "standard" from the last few games. The Hostess games and the extra missions were unfettered with in the PS2 game localizations. So, why get all "brand new" and thinking they can cinch us on the content end by the first localized PS3 release? Even more so the pity when you consider they had TROPHY DATA relating to that extra content?

And I don't care what any body says, Sega missed the boat when it came to Kenzan. If Agetec thought it was worth the risk for "Way of the Samurai", SURELY Sega could have had their own answer ready with Kenzan. Sadly, most Americans won't get to play what is easily one of the best games in the saga thus far. Hopefully, Sega will learn their lesson with 4.

- Playing the PS3 build of Bayonetta, along with the patch they provided, the game doesn't really seem that bad. Sure, there are a few slowdown and texture issues, but I imagine this must have been a somehow rushed port. They're not commiting the same mistake with Vanquish, as far as I can tell. So they learned from their blunder.

Sadly, the patch wasn't crafted by the Sega team that ported Bayonetta. That was actually SONY who reached in, and actually salvaged the game from the horrid things that made it almost a chore to enjoy what was easily one of the best games released in 09 (Japan)/this year (everywhere else).

Thankfully, there seemingly aren't such mistakes with Vanquish, because it's all IN-HOUSE (Platinum Games only). No farming out porting duties to "Sega's trusted team of PS3 developers" this time around!

Honestly, tl,dr, I am AGREEING with you. These are big mistakes by Sega. I just think that they're a bit blown out of proportion.

If it was just one or two isolated incidents, maybe you would be right to think they're blown out of proportion. Because after all, even the likes of Nintendo, Sandlot, Treasure and Technos Japan/Million, as much as I love 'em, can expect to deliver 100% all the time. But we're talking about an array of continuing events that pretty much stem from the Sega-Sammy merger, and just continue to persist even now. It adds up, and only does more to undermine the image of the company as a whole.

This is exactly the kind of thing that Blues tries to relate through his restaurant-related allegories. It's one thing to fly off the handle, if say, you have an isolated incident, or two, where Olive Garden doesn't fix your mango daiquiri exactly to your specifications, but you could otherwise say that you have had a pleasurable experience at the restaurant as per usual. It's another thing altogether if you have one visit where the waitress basically ignores you, then another where your chicken parmigiana is terribly dry, another where the salad has dry and wilted leaves and etc., etc. That [parasitic bomb] adds up after awhile, and it's the kind of stuff that makes you question your love and loyalty to a brand name you've come to expect certain things from, especially if you've been a long time consumer.

And that's basically where I am with Sega now-a-days. For the few brief times I see something that gives glimmers of hope (VF5: Final Showdown, RGG/Yakuza being a continue success, forming the partnership with P*, Valkyria Chronicles, the initial announcement of Sonic 4), the other shoe drops soon afterward and it is straight up MADDENING for a former Sega die-hard like myself to see. Even the Sega of 2000-2003 (back in the days of Dreamcast and even including the baby-steps towards being a multiplatform console developer) is a world away from the Sega of today...  

[Bueno Excelente]

See, I would agree with you, if they didn't already have a "standard" from the last few games. The Hostess games and the extra missions were unfettered with in the PS2 game localizations. So, why get all "brand new" and thinking they can cinch us on the content end by the first localized PS3 release? Even more so the pity when you consider they had TROPHY DATA relating to that extra content?

And I don't care what any body says, Sega missed the boat when it came to Kenzan. If Agetec thought it was worth the risk for "Way of the Samurai", SURELY Sega could have had their own answer ready with Kenzan. Sadly, most Americans won't get to play what is easily one of the best games in the saga thus far. Hopefully, Sega will learn their lesson with 4.

If it was just one or two isolated incidents, maybe you would be right to think they're blown out of proportion. Because after all, even the likes of Nintendo, Sandlot, Treasure and Technos Japan/Million, as much as I love 'em, can expect to deliver 100% all the time. But we're talking about an array of continuing events that pretty much stem from the Sega-Sammy merger, and just continue to persist even now. It adds up, and only does more to undermine the image of the company as a whole.

This is exactly the kind of thing that Blues tries to relate through his restaurant-related allegories. It's one thing to fly off the handle, if say, you have an isolated incident, or two, where Olive Garden doesn't fix your mango daiquiri exactly to your specifications, but you could otherwise say that you have had a pleasurable experience at the restaurant as per usual. It's another thing altogether if you have one visit where the waitress basically ignores you, then another where your chicken parmigiana is terribly dry, another where the salad has dry and wilted leaves and etc., etc. That [parasitic bomb] adds up after awhile, and it's the kind of stuff that makes you question your love and loyalty to a brand name you've come to expect certain things from, especially if you've been a long time consumer.

And that's basically where I am with Sega now-a-days. For the few brief times I see something that gives glimmers of hope (VF5: Final Showdown, RGG/Yakuza being a continue success, forming the partnership with P*, Valkyria Chronicles, the initial announcement of Sonic 4), the other shoe drops soon afterward and it is straight up MADDENING for a former Sega die-hard like myself to see. Even the Sega of 2000-2003 (back in the days of Dreamcast and even including the baby-steps towards being a multiplatform console developer) is a world away from the Sega of today...   

I guess I'm just a "glass half-full" kind of guy. I was a moderator for a year on a Yakuza 3 fansite with the purpose of getting Sega to make a translation for us overseas. The site closed, but we made enough noise to get our translation, and we got to play the game. The single fact that Valkyria Chronicles existed and that it was an amazing RPG, made by the Sega of today, kinda brings me alot of hope. And when other Sega developers (except for shitpiles like Secret Level) make an effort to deliver good games, like Sumo Design with Sonic & Sega All-Star Racing, or Dimps with their Sonic titles, I see some hope. Maybe it's the Sega fanboy of old inside of me, but although I see ALOT of blunders coming from Sega, I still manage to buy some of their games and get wonderful stellar gaming experiences out of them.

With Kenzan, the main problem was the "little girl being sold into sex slavery" bit of story with the game, which although was common in feudal Japan, they didn't want to risk conservatives getting their panties in a bunch and identifying the game as a pedophile motivator, or something like that (when Mass Effect can be translated by Fox News as "Go anywhere, choose anyone, and [twin slasher] THEM", there's just no hope). Kenzan was indeed a wonderful game, and I hope we end up getting at least a version of it in the future, maybe when the PS3 starts ending its life cycle and companies start pumping out cheap translations and ports just to clean up the sales.

I guess that whenever I play games like Yakuza, I find a little hope that they may yet still make Shenmue 3. And when I see effort to put a game like Sonic 4 out in a downloadable, episodic form, I see them taking a big chance with this, in order to appeal to their fans. I kinda get this fools' hope that Sega may one day rise to greatness again, maybe as bigtime games developer for all systems (as another console just would NOT fly at all). Only time will tell. But I see them taking baby steps in the right direction. I see them taking small chances. I see them sloooooowly getting a tiny bit better and better.

And I just can't stop thinking "...this is good."

[Protoman Blues]

Olive Garden

I said a restaurant, Ben, not the [tornado fang]ing Olive Garden, with their absolutely tasteless Italian Food. LoL, even I would never compare SEGA to the Olive Garden, no matter how many free breadsticks they might shove in your face. 

[Bueno Excelente]

I said a restaurant, Ben, not the [tornado fang]ing Olive Garden, with their absolutely tasteless Italian Food. LoL, even I would never compare SEGA to the Olive Garden, no matter how many free breadsticks they might shove in your face. 

That bad? I kinda heard good stuff about it. Meh, being used to good Italian food, I'd probably hate such a franchised look upon pasta cooking, huh?

[Protoman Blues]

Meh, being used to good Italian food, I'd probably hate such a franchised look upon pasta cooking, huh?

EGG-ZACT-LY!

It's the Italian in me! 

[HokutoNoBen]

I said a restaurant, Ben, not the [tornado fang]ing Olive Garden, with their absolutely tasteless Italian Food. LoL, even I would never compare SEGA to the Olive Garden, no matter how many free breadsticks they might shove in your face. 

Sorry, but again, that's where I am with Sega now-a-days. 

[Protoman Blues]

Sorry, but again, that's where I am with Sega now-a-days. 

Wow. Well then I'm sorry, bro!

For me, I'd say SEGA is like my Red Lobster.  I might feel sick after too many shrimp, and a couple of times I've gotten somewhat awful service, but the Ultimate Feast is good as well as those cheddar biscuits!