Topic: Sonic the Hedgehog 4 (Wii, PS3, 360, iPhone)

[Mirby]

Maybe Unleashed would've been better if they'd used Knuckles instead of the Werehog. After all, the Werehog was basically a Power-type character (which is what Knux is).

[Alice in Entropy]

Y'know, I had the same idea before. That would certainly have been (for me, at least) a significantly better choice. The Werehog, while not the worst idea Sega's ever had (not by a long-shot, I say), still felt like a tacky gimmick. It just felt unnatural.

[HokutoNoBen]

See, even this I can't get behind. There are elements in tons of other games that tell me that momentum (and speed based rewards) can be applied to a 3D Sonic game without horribly breaking the gameplay. Jet Set Radio comes to mind almost instantaneously for a few of the race segments. Funnily enough though, there are two great examples of how Sonic can be done in 3D, and both are racing games, namely F-Zero GX & Trackmania (especially Trackmania).

I'll get more into it in a second though.

Shoot, JSRF would even go on to have the "loop-de-loops", which only goes further along what JSR started with: a more or less "believable" sensation of momentum-based speed, married with some platforming.

So yeah, I will relent that much; if a competent dev was at the helm, we likely would have had a competent way to portray Sonic in 3D SOME TIME within the last decade. But that's the keyword. Competent.

And the "sad" thing is, Sega does have some competent people that could do just that. But nobody wants to be saddled with the notion of being "stuck" with Sonic. I don't think even Treasure, who likes to co-op with Sega on choice occasions, wants to submit themselves to such a thing. And they're guys who seem more or less "ok" with the notion of doing anime franchise tie-ins to help pay the bills...  

[HyperSonicEXE]

The Adventure games were just fine. Sure, they were glitchy, and the camera was a pain compared to other 3D games. But you know what? Those things just managed to get worse over time, that's the problem. They were moving in the wrong direction, it's not because of the dimension of the game. If they could get back to at least the polish of the Adventure games (better than that would be optimal, but let's be realistic here), and made sane choices (ie. no [tornado fang]ing werehog), then Sonic in 3D would be just fine. Now get your head out of your asses and think a little bit more.

Adventure and Adventure 2 were very focused in one direction (with a few walls), and between the Rail Grinding and those "On-Rails" segments, it provided a moderately satisfying experience akin to the 2D games. I use Emerald Coast as an example often not only because it is so close to the perfect 3D zone design in that it was not only simple enough and still focused on platforming and momentum/speed, but the atmosphere was absorbing and it had special segments like the whale, or the waterfall run, all sorts of moments.

But even then, Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 still had a few glitches, but they were blemishes on an otherwise decent game rather than further aggravations to an already poor experience.

See, even this I can't get behind. There are elements in tons of other games that tell me that momentum (and speed based rewards) can be applied to a 3D Sonic game without horribly breaking the gameplay. Jet Set Radio comes to mind almost instantaneously for a few of the race segments. Funnily enough though, there are two great examples of how Sonic can be done in 3D, and both are racing games, namely F-Zero GX & Trackmania (especially Trackmania).

I'll get more into it in a second though.

There's one thing to keep in mind about that. F-Zero GX, Trackmania, and Jet Set Radio, for the most part, are set on one line. And, unless you mess up, it's hard to "fall off" (unless we're talking about F-Zero's harder segments like the Creators' Race, then HOO BOY, GOOD LUCK).

Meanwhile, Sonic games are also open-bottom, shifting levels of position, and attempting puzzles. You can go the "racing" route, but then it gets boring. Sonic Rivals. Shadow's stages in Sonic Adventure 2. This would be remedied, however, if you did that design with the "shortest route" and reasonable-challenge based Time Attack unlocks of Sonic CD.

[Bag of Magic Food]

2D Mario is pretty basic platforming and friendly to a wide variety of characters, but 3D Mario is about sandbox fetch-questing at a lax pace while you drool over the environment.

But I think Cool, Cool Mountain would make a great Sonic level!

[Hypershell]

Adventure and Adventure 2 were very focused in one direction (with a few walls), and between the Rail Grinding and those "On-Rails" segments, it provided a moderately satisfying experience akin to the 2D games.

See, here's the thing, you said earlier that Sonic is "2D only", but I don't acknowledge the notion that a 3D game is not truly 3D if you're not in a sandbox.  "Point A to Point B" platforming does work in 3D, as the Adventures did it, and also the bonus stages of Super Mario Sunshine did it.

Could you recreate SA2's Final Rush in 2D?  Sure, you can re-interpret anything.  Would it be half as awesome?  Not likely.

[Flame]

I bring up Shadow again. Many of his stages, no matter what the orientation was, were somewhat expansive. The Ark comes to mind. especially in The Doom, and that one other flashback stage. where you can actually get yourself lost.

Personally, I think ShTHH did well with stages. but they aimed the direction at shooting and fighting, which kinda wasted that. Although, since you had to stay in one place for more than just 2 seconds, you got to absorb more of the scenery.

[OBJECTION MAN]

I liked that Shadow's game were all pretty much "Sonic Stages" in terms of Sonic Adventure layout. This is what Sonic Adventure 2 needed to be entirely. No breaks with mechs and stupid emerald searching. Just straight up speedy cool gameplay. I also think Sonic worked very well in 3D. The perspective of being able to actually see things ahead of you within a reasonable distance was good, and dare I say a much appreciated change. Some of the 2D games really felt like I was going too fast to reasonably react to anything that is about to slam into me at 200mph.

[Solar]

Could you recreate SA2's Final Rush in 2D?  Sure, you can re-interpret anything.  Would it be half as awesome?  Not likely.

Agreed

I bring up Shadow again. Many of his stages, no matter what the orientation was, were somewhat expansive. The Ark comes to mind. especially in The Doom, and that one other flashback stage. where you can actually get yourself lost.

I'd argue that's one of the worst parts for anything other than the neutral paths actually. It wouldn't be so bad if the levels had more than exactly x number of what you need to collect/destroy -____-

[Flame]

I have to agree there. the neutral path was the only one that really let you [tornado fang] around.

[Gotham Ranger]

That whole game was terrible

[Nekomata]

your face is terrible.

[Gotham Ranger]

your comebacks are terrible

[HyperSonicEXE]

See, here's the thing, you said earlier that Sonic is "2D only", but I don't acknowledge the notion that a 3D game is not truly 3D if you're not in a sandbox.  "Point A to Point B" platforming does work in 3D, as the Adventures did it, and also the bonus stages of Super Mario Sunshine did it.

Could you recreate SA2's Final Rush in 2D?  Sure, you can re-interpret anything.  Would it be half as awesome?  Not likely.

Obstacle courses instead of sandboxes? Quite possible; you could explore in Super Mario 64 compared to some Sonic levels which almost, almost act like 2D Mario games.

2D might not be able to work wonders (although I think a little creativity could fix that; see Death Egg and Lava Reef S&K), but I certainly believe that 2.5D could rework Final Rush. That said, if you had the maximum graphics settings for 2.5D and 3D, of course the 3D would be more encompassing; point of view comes into play.

[Hypershell]

That's a valid point which RDW already touched on.  A Sonic obstacle course is arguably BETTER suited for 3D due to the concept of depth perception.  Problem is, Sega isn't willing to render that much scenery.  At least not without forcing you to replay it 10 times to unlock something.

[HyperSonicEXE]

That's a valid point which RDW already touched on.  A Sonic obstacle course is arguable BETTER suited for 3D due to the concept of depth perception.  Problem is, Sega isn't willing to render that much scenery.  At least not without forcing you to replay it 10 times to unlock something.

Oh wait, you're right, we talked about that earlier in this same thread with Sonic Rivals, etc.

And yet those are two different monsters, gameplay-wise.

Something's gotta give. There's gotta be some way to use Sonic Adventure's stage layout and "obstacle course" features without being boring and unfulfilling.
EDIT: Oh right, shortest route, Special Stages for Super Sonic, and Time Attack based unlocks.

[Jazz Shaking]

OCRemix wants to do the music for Sonic 4

http://www.pressthebuttons.com/2010/02/ocremix-wants-to-compose-sonic-4-soundtrack.html

[HyperSonicEXE]

I dunno, OCRemix is a great bunch, but they're too far out in left field for that.

Even Snappleman, whose boss remixes I dearly love, would have to tone his stuff down for a commercial soundtrack.

[Fxeni]

Their stuff for SSF2HD wasn't too bad. They probably could do a decent job, as long as they keep their stuff in check.

[Flame]

Yeah I dunno. Could they really get the feel of the classic Genesis Sonic tunes?

[Gotham Ranger]

OCRemix wants to do the music for Sonic 4

http://www.pressthebuttons.com/2010/02/ocremix-wants-to-compose-sonic-4-soundtrack.html

Mother of god no

They're remixers. This needs an original soundtrack. A remix here and there is fine, but I don't want to hear the [tornado fang]ing Jazz version of Flying Battery.

[HyperSonicEXE]

Their stuff for SSF2HD wasn't too bad. They probably could do a decent job, as long as they keep their stuff in check.

And see, that was fine since SSF2 had a pretty varied soundtrack anyway, and the story was that they're going all over the world for fights; especially as an update of a classic game, OCRemix's weirdness fit the bill.

But making a cohesive, and furthermore catchy set of songs, I don't think they've got it.

[STM]

Listen, OCRemix... stick to making shitty remix albums. Seriously. Leave game composition to the professionals.

I support the use of the Sonic Unleashed music team for Sonic 4 again.

[Waifu]

I just pray that this a real Sonic 4 as opposed to that we got lately, however OCRemix doing the  soundtrack DO NOT WANT although not all the music is bad.

[Hypershell]

It's a rumor with an online petition.  Which is the online equivalent to a business card (To quote Robert De Niro, "There's a real [tornado fang]ing achievement.").  I'm sure it won't happen, and yes I'm glad it won't, since music is something Sonic Team tends to actually do right.