Sonic the Hedgehog 4 (Wii, PS3, 360, iPhone)

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Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #1200 on: August 27, 2010, 12:36:16 PM
This place sounds more civilized than the elitists over at Sonic Retro. ("We rage over game titles, music, and think the classics are perfect!...TOO perfect to live up to!")

Sonic fans? Civilized? 8D

Disorganized as we are, from furries to fantards and jaded old school fans, you are correct. Retro couldn't even get a community-based sequel off the ground. Everyone over there is fuming because this is "Not want we wanted." Ask a fan anything: they may think Sonic 4 involves all of Sonic's friends with Shadow overshadowing (SEE WHAT I DID THAR!?) Sonic. Some envisioned Sega pulling a Megaman 9 move with retro graphics and sounds. (Of course, that's what I would have liked to see) Other fans envisioned a 2D game with HD sprites (ala Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD).

Instead we find that Sega is still a washed-up has-been from the 90's that should have been bought out by Nintendo. Yes, Sega's listening, but methinks they aren't putting their best efforts into making the game (reused bosses, badniks, etc). Jun Senoue (the composer) was even going to use the same computer and development kit he used to make the music for Sonic 3! (The NEC PC-88? 98?) Someone could at least tell him about emulation, right?

Given that this is only the first episode, we don't even know what the rest of the game is going to look like. (Of course, angry fans will still give Sega the 'guilty until proven innocent' treatment) Although I have my suspicions that Episode 2 will involve reusing/making minor edits of Sonic CD content.

Of all the levels I've seen, Lost Labryinth looks the most original.
The reused bosses and badniks are on purpose. Jesus, they had cheers when the old designs came back, because fans wanted it all back and when they showed the concept art, people rejoiced. People wanted the old back, people wanted it to be classic, just like the old titles. Now you complain because you think it's lazy? Seriously, I wish I could strangle you fans sometimes.



Offline Kieran

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Reply #1201 on: August 27, 2010, 03:25:10 PM
Waiting patiently.

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Offline Satoryu

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Reply #1202 on: August 27, 2010, 07:36:08 PM
It's not even completely reusing the bosses. It's bringing them back and suping them up with a new trick or two. It's not like Sonic is the first to do this.


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Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #1203 on: August 27, 2010, 07:51:05 PM
It's not even completely reusing the bosses. It's bringing them back and suping them up with a new trick or two. It's not like Sonic is the first to do this.
Exactly. I really loved to watch the leaked first boss and see that it had new tricks up its sleeve. It surprises fans. XD



Offline Flame

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Reply #1204 on: August 27, 2010, 08:29:59 PM
And its not like he hasnt done it befor either. didnt Advance do that too? (one of them)

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Kieran

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Reply #1205 on: August 27, 2010, 08:37:05 PM
Advance did it with bosses from Sonic 1 and 2, I think... and Sonic 3 did the same thing, albeit it was Mecha Sonic piloting the Eggmobile then.

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Liara T'Soni: It is a luxury resort with an... exotic edge.  Azure is slang for a part of the asari body in some places on Illium.
Shepard: Where?
Liara: The lower reaches, near the bottom.
Shepard: I meant, "where on the asari body?"
Liara: So did I.


Offline KyoKusanagi

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Reply #1206 on: August 27, 2010, 08:51:55 PM
And its not like he hasnt done it befor either. didnt Advance do that too? (one of them)

Ninja'd by Kieran. But those were more or less Mini Bosses in Sonic 3.

Anyway, that right there is an example of the issue that people have with the name. To them, Sonic 4 should be something that introduces new bosses right off the bat. But then again, Episode 1 is just a prologue to the rest of the game.

Aside from the reuse of bosses, I don't have an issue with the game name like the rest of the Negative Nancies at Retro (who won't even give the game a chance!). I'm actually excited to play the game and to see what Sega has in store for episode 2.

The only problem now is the physics. Of course, you could compare the physics between Sonic CD and the classic games, and find that you can easily walk up a steep incline in a CD level, but not as much in a classic level.



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Reply #1207 on: August 28, 2010, 08:34:44 PM
The reused bosses and badniks are on purpose. Jesus, they had cheers when the old designs came back, because fans wanted it all back and when they showed the concept art, people rejoiced. People wanted the old back, people wanted it to be classic, just like the old titles. Now you complain because you think it's lazy? Seriously, I wish I could strangle you fans sometimes.
This is EXACTLY what I was talking about.

Every fan has their own ideal Sonic.  Every fan will [sonic slicer] at their perceived inconsistencies.  Hell, I do it too, just get me talking about Tails.  When Sega offers a lazy/rushed development, that's one thing, but you can't really fault them for not measuring up to a million different expectations at the same time.

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Offline HokutoNoBen

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Reply #1208 on: August 29, 2010, 12:31:19 AM
Every fan has their own ideal Sonic.  Every fan will [sonic slicer] at their perceived inconsistencies.  Hell, I do it too, just get me talking about Tails.  When Sega offers a lazy/rushed development, that's one thing, but you can't really fault them for not measuring up to a million different expectations at the same time.

Again, though, who's at fault for that?

Sega were the ones who allowed Sonic to be marketed in so many different ways since his introduction in the 90s, and when he quickly became their licensing [sonic slicer]. There were the games. There were the cartoons. There were the comics. And several different permutations existed for of all the former things, depending on the region of the world you lived in. This would only go on to be compounded, thanks to the "Adventure-era" Sonic that a new generation of fans would grow up with. And all of that was fine, as long as Sega was making money.

But, fast forward. Now we're in a world where Sega is floundering about with their "golden boy", simply because they really have no idea of what to do with him. That's why the tagline "returning Sonic to his ROOTS~" is meaningless; how do you return something to its grassroots condition, when pretty much everybody was allowed to grow up with the character/concept/world in their own way? Even worse, when you have people like Iizuka, who don't exactly paint themselves as the sharpest crayons in the box either? 8D

You know it's dysfunctional when there are still arguments about the "proper name" of Sonic's main antagonist. On the other hand, when was the last time any significant argument about the name of the Princess of the Mushroom Kingdom took place? 

So, again, Sega has no one to blame but themselves for the mess they have now. Mario, and especially Mickey Mouse, existed as ideal models of how to market a world-wide character and brand, in what could be described as a uniform way. That's definitely not what could be described for Sonic...



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Reply #1209 on: August 29, 2010, 12:49:32 AM
Aside from that, they should've followed NIS' example when it came to consolehopping (As in: PS2 -> DS -> PSP -> And back again). Release the first game, then add an "alternate" scenario afterward. That would've worked instead of ripping off Megaman X (well, where it was headed to before the biggest ripoff in terms of characters that was '06). Sonic was fine with the 'tude before the personality split.  :D

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So its about ass now huh? EVEN THE ASS HAS 'EXCEEDED'!

One mention of LEGENDS and everyone goes batshit.  :\

Yep, every time when someone mentions that game people get energized for an apparent reason whatsoever. It's like this everywhere else, trust me.

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Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #1210 on: August 29, 2010, 01:17:34 AM
Again, though, who's at fault for that?

Sega were the ones who allowed Sonic to be marketed in so many different ways since his introduction in the 90s, and when he quickly became their licensing [sonic slicer]. There were the games. There were the cartoons. There were the comics. And several different permutations existed for of all the former things, depending on the region of the world you lived in. This would only go on to be compounded, thanks to the "Adventure-era" Sonic that a new generation of fans would grow up with. And all of that was fine, as long as Sega was making money.

But, fast forward. Now we're in a world where Sega is floundering about with their "golden boy", simply because they really have no idea of what to do with him. That's why the tagline "returning Sonic to his ROOTS~" is meaningless; how do you return something to its grassroots condition, when pretty much everybody was allowed to grow up with the character/concept/world in their own way? Even worse, when you have people like Iizuka, who don't exactly paint themselves as the sharpest crayons in the box either? 8D

You know it's dysfunctional when there are still arguments about the "proper name" of Sonic's main antagonist. On the other hand, when was the last time any significant argument about the name of the Princess of the Mushroom Kingdom took place? 

So, again, Sega has no one to blame but themselves for the mess they have now. Mario, and especially Mickey Mouse, existed as ideal models of how to market a world-wide character and brand, in what could be described as a uniform way. That's definitely not what could be described for Sonic...
Uh, as far as I know, and as far as it's been argued, the first few Sonic games were pretty darn similar to one another. Sonic's gaming "roots" are well-defined, moreso than Mario or Mickey, which have had ten million different games and different cartoon versions as far as we can tell. (Plus Mario had that small Super Mario Bros 2 problem, which got different games on each side of the globe and radically different games after that) Sonic's had comics, cartoons and all that jazz, but his true roots being refered to in this case are the Genesis games roots, and for that case, they're making sure this game is, pure and simply, a 2D game, starring Sonic alone, with enemies lifted off the old games of the series.

It's as much as a true return to the roots as New Super Mario Bros (Wii) was. Bringing back old elements and calling itself the old name of the franchise. First original big, popular games that made the character a hit = roots. It's not that hard.

Mickey's being brought back to his roots with Epic Mickey, for example. They're not making animated shorts with the old means, are they? No. They're making a videogame that pays tribute to the old Mickey.

I really don't see what's so complicated about this.



Offline Flame

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Reply #1211 on: August 29, 2010, 04:55:41 AM
Quote
You know it's dysfunctional when there are still arguments about the "proper name" of Sonic's main antagonist.
I have to give you that one.

But still, im with Superbat on this one. Its not that hard.
But hey- Hyper said it best. everyone has their ideal sonic and their ideal everything with him. theres just no pleasing some fans when it comes to sonic.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #1212 on: August 29, 2010, 05:00:46 AM
I think the Eggman/Robotnik discrepancy is mainly a fan-based thing, though, like how you get U.S. fans who occasionally favor japanese "Rockman" names (I'm guilty of this with ZX).  It's true that there's an inconsistency in the name's introduction in Adventure1 (Sonic and friends making fun of him) versus all games since (Eggman referring to himself as such), but the names of the Adventure1 mechs should have made it fairly obvious that that was a localization issue.  It was sloppy, yes, but a lot of higher regarded franchises have had far worse screwups when it comes to consistency.  Somebody wanted to pull a "Princess Peach" name swap, and put Sonic's "attitude" to good use in doing so.  They just didn't stop to think about how that would impact continuity.

It's as much as a true return to the roots as New Super Mario Bros (Wii) was.
I'd say it's closer to NSMBDS, in that it very strongly references the original one or two titles rather than the entire "oldschool" track record.  NSMBWii contains numerous references to nearly Mario's entire 2D catalogue, while the DS was more strongly geared towards 1.  Likewise, taking Sonic solo is pretty specific to STH1 and CD.  STH2 and S3&K offer some serious competition for "best oldschool Sonic", but many of their finer points appear ignored, for Ep1 at least.

Kinda reminds me of the impact MM9 has on MM3 fans.  There's turning the clock back, and then there's turning it WAAAY back.

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Offline Gaia

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Reply #1213 on: August 29, 2010, 05:04:33 AM
It was sloppy, yes, but a lot of higher regarded franchises have had far worse screwups when it comes to consistency.

Like the whole "Koopa/Bowser" and the "Peach/Toadstool" deal, remember that?

Workshop/DA/YT/Photobucket なにかんがえてるの!?
So its about ass now huh? EVEN THE ASS HAS 'EXCEEDED'!

One mention of LEGENDS and everyone goes batshit.  :\

Yep, every time when someone mentions that game people get energized for an apparent reason whatsoever. It's like this everywhere else, trust me.

It got really messy to find my sprite and comic topic, so it's in my sig.


Offline Flame

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Reply #1214 on: August 29, 2010, 05:05:20 AM
Except Megaman fans dont argue and [sonic slicer] over the fact that "Rockman" should be called "Megaman"

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


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Reply #1215 on: August 29, 2010, 05:12:11 AM
Like the whole "Koopa/Bowser" and the "Peach/Toadstool" deal, remember that?
Ben already referenced Peach/Toadstool above.  I'm pretty sure he's referring to the transition with Robotnik/Eggman being badly handled by comparison to Peach.

With both of Nintendo's naming issues, however, in the Western audience both names carry some validity.  "Peach" and "Toadstool" coexist in SM64 leading to the popular assumption of "Toadstool" being a family name, and Bowser's pretty much always carried the title, "King of the Koopas".  Sega seemingly attempted this in SA2 (which as noted earlier flies in the face of SA1's setup, where "Eggman" was not a name but a name-calling) by featuring "Gerald Robotnik" as the grandfather of the self-identified "Dr. Eggman."

This is really what SHOULD be going on with MegaMan as well, with the name Rock being the established pre-battle-robot name in MM4, but apparently someone in the localization team forgot that when working on Powered Up (thankfully Udon did not, for MMOCW).  Frankly I think they could have stood to remember that with ZX as well, seeings how "ROCK ON!" is audibly heard throughout the whole game due to localization laziness anyway.

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Reply #1216 on: August 29, 2010, 05:13:24 AM
Yeah, I've always known Bowser as both Bowser and King Koopa. As for Peach, I just took the name change in SM64 to mean her first name. Princess Peach Toadstool sounds good to me.

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Offline Flame

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Reply #1217 on: August 29, 2010, 05:39:29 AM
Rock on is superior to "Megamerge"

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #1218 on: August 29, 2010, 05:59:44 AM
I'd say it's closer to NSMBDS, in that it very strongly references the original one or two titles rather than the entire "oldschool" track record.  NSMBWii contains numerous references to nearly Mario's entire 2D catalogue, while the DS was more strongly geared towards 1.  Likewise, taking Sonic solo is pretty specific to STH1 and CD.  STH2 and S3&K offer some serious competition for "best oldschool Sonic", but many of their finer points appear ignored, for Ep1 at least.

Kinda reminds me of the impact MM9 has on MM3 fans.  There's turning the clock back, and then there's turning it WAAAY back.
My bad. I was gonna put both games in there, I just put the Wii version between parenthesis to show I meant that title as well, but it came out all wrong.

And yeah, the point was, it's supposed to be a tribute to the old titles instead of a total comeback of the old stuff. Honestly, I'd love to see a 16-bit game, but I think this is pretty good too.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #1219 on: August 29, 2010, 06:08:13 AM
That actually makes sense now that I think about it.  "Wii" is part of the title for the Wii version, whereas "DS" is not part of the title for the DS version.  So you were technically correct, even if ambiguous.  Sorry for the mixup.

Rock on is superior to "Megamerge"
Damn straight.

Yeah, I've always known Bowser as both Bowser and King Koopa.
We pretty much all did.  Super Show.  "Bowser" was never heard in the cartoons until SMB3, and even then was uncommon.

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Offline Flame

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Reply #1220 on: August 29, 2010, 06:55:33 AM
Rock on simply sounds awesome. whereas Megamerge sounds like some corny line you'd get from the likes of power rangers. (ironically enough)

That, plus, "Rebirth Of Crystallized Knowledge" makes more sense as to what happens when using the system rather than "Meta Encapsulated Granule Awareness" which actually not only sounds confusing, (Meta encapsulated? what? and "granule awareness"? that doesnt sound really appealing...) and sounds more like its describing what a biometal IS.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #1221 on: August 29, 2010, 04:09:05 PM
Rock on simply sounds awesome. whereas Megamerge sounds like some corny line you'd get from the likes of power rangers. (ironically enough)

You're giving Megamerge too much credit, Flame.  You don't want to mess with DINOZORD POWER!

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http://forums.sega.com/showthread.php?t=342368

Quote from: Official Sega Response to all complaints concerning Sonic The Hedgehog 4



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Reply #1223 on: August 30, 2010, 06:46:13 AM
You're giving Megamerge too much credit, Flame.  You don't want to mess with DINOZORD POWER!

Now, if they had yelled MEGA-MORPH, that would've been Morphanominal!  8D



Offline Flame

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Reply #1224 on: August 30, 2010, 07:00:40 AM
Now, if they had yelled MEGA-MORPH, that would've been Morphanominal!  8D
Lol, I have to agree with PB on this one.
http://forums.sega.com/showthread.php?t=342368

Ok, I lol'd. This is like "Shut up and appreciate it"

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.