Topic: ZX Cameos

[Hypershell]

Lie by omission, your statement is true only of the text of Vile's Incident, not of Vile's Incident in its entirety.

We've been over this, the illustrations accompanying Vile's Incident, specifically a single piece across pages 2 and 3, indicate that Levi at least is very much alive, as her ankles are visible and unlike Phantom's clearly solid.  Developer interviews around that time frame also stated that the remaining Guardians were alive and merely off-screen during Z4.

It is known fact they were not intended to be dead at Z3's ending until after ZX was under development.  It is senseless to kill three characters in a scenario which a fourth, closest to ground zero (not like that stopped anyone in X5, but still) survived, especially given that the entity credited with retrieving the known survivor was visibly incapacitated at the time of the explosion.

[Zan]

We've been over this, the illustrations accompanying Vile's Incident, specifically a single piece across pages 2 and 3, indicate that Levi at least is very much alive, as her ankles are visible and unlike Phantom's clearly solid.

I meant that I do not consider that picture as any guarantee of their status as dead or alive. Not only does it allow characters such as X and Phantom a previously unseen materialized appearance, it is also complete fanon to exclaim that all of them have to have their feet obscured by special effect. For example, X's effects are clearly far more heavy than Phantom's. Between dead since Ciel was 9, dead since Zero1 and dead since Zero3, why would they all be the same?

Furthermore, your often cited ankles are just one of Leviathan's feet; she is not standing on flat ground. We have no precedence of how X and Phantom would appear in this position. The effects always obscure two feet at the same height with one ring, never two uneven height feet. Thus there are many clear cut rationale behind the lack of effects on Leviathan.

See, even if they were alive in Nakayama's vision whilst drawing. We never had any indication to believe that image would appear any differently even if they were dead. Had they shown that image AFTER they had stated them as dead, we would have all accepted it as their post mortum materialization.

This was a scene in-continuity, but their status was never ever made clear. Inti is very much right about the vagueness of the scene; we are missing its factual context.

Developer interviews around that time frame also stated that the remaining Guardians were alive and merely off-screen during Z4.

Developer interview was a clear cut; "maybe". Never fact. This is out of continuity. Unless you also believe Ciel's age of perhaps 5, 6 was in-continuity too. Staff guessing is just that, guessing; they rectified it to age 9 as of RZOCW. The same is true of the Guardians and this interview.

It is senseless to kill three characters in a scenario which a fourth, closest to ground zero survived

The "sense" of the whole set up was never in question. Inti has clearly elaborated on why Zero survived.

The question here is one of "retroactive continuity". As in, does what Into say go against what was previously established fact? I say no, all it goes against is what the fans themselves thought of as fact. The Vile's Incident image is inconclusive due to lack of context. The interview is inconclusive because of staff guessing. Inti simply had not yet established their true fate, neither dead, nor alive were factual. TELOS even indicates the probability of their death, just as much as their survival. That is why it was entirely within Inti's right to determine this later on.

As for what the game presents, that too lacks any real facts. You yourself should know best not to see engine specific explosion as the definite death of a character. Omega could still be standing after Zero's attack, and deliver a Phantom style moment long after the screen fade. If we however had seen the aftermath of our engine-specific explosion and certain sprites would have vanished, then would we have actual facts of their fate in the game.

[Hypershell]

I meant that I do not consider that picture as any guarantee of their status as dead or alive. Not only does it allow characters such as X and Phantom a previously unseen materialized appearance, it is also complete fanon to exclaim that all of them have to have their feet obscured by special effect. For example, X's effects are clearly far more heavy than Phantom's. Between dead since Ciel was 9, dead since Zero1 and dead since Zero3, why would they all be the same?

How often do you see any program life object appearing in the substance world that DOESN'T have some manner of energy effect around it?  The specifics of such may not be an exact science but there's pretty much always something.

I think the difference in saturation of effects between X and Phantom is more a matter of style than timeframe.  MMZ makes it a point of presenting X in an "otherworldly" light, and the visualizations surrounding him have been anything but consistent.  You look at sprite, art, and mugshot, and get three or four completely different looks.

But on the timeframe issue:  ZX.  Giro.  Dead in same game, and discolored from the waist down.

Developer interview was a clear cut; "maybe". Never fact.

It said "maybe" in regards to what they were doing, not that they "maybe" survived.  Big difference.  There was no intention nor implication of death even after the sequel game was done, and the "general creation team" (a shame there are no specific names attached to this) go on to express their regrets for not including the remaining Guardians in Z4.  They also specifically mention that the reason Zero did not have a final showdown with the Big Four is because they did not want to see the Big Four defeated in Z3.

Barring the clear developer intent established there, on the "Nakayama's mind" issue, I think that they are alive in that image is obvious.  Not only for reasons I described above, which need to be deliberately rationalized away to work otherwise, but if Nakayama thought them dead, he wouldn't have stumbled when asked when that image is supposed to fit.  Aizu's explanation of the Guardians dying in Z3 is a simple matter of exploiting a loophole.  Nakayama's piece was the only thing in their way, so they made it a point to dismiss it.  Textbook definition of retcon.  That simple.

[Flame]

How about this. At the time, that meant whatever it meant, be it that they were alive or otherwise, but now, they are dead, as they decided to kill them that way for ZX to happen the way they envisioned it.
So, as of then, they officially died in Z3. Retcon or not, thats the way it now is.

[Hypershell]

Well, yeah, nobody's debating that.

[Flame]

What were you two arguing over again...?

[Hypershell]

Whether the fate of Harpuia, Leviathan, and Fefnir constitutes something that "changed the series".

[Zan]

How often do you see any program life object appearing in the substance world that DOESN'T have some manner of energy effect around it?  The specifics of such may not be an exact science but there's pretty much always something.

Z1 Passy. SvC Cyber Elves. Furthermore, Phantom has never before been shown to materialize in this manner. If we start demanding that they all need those effects, we're making up whatever we want; there simply is no stated context to explain these effects, nor do we have an example to judge Leviathan's uneven foot positioning by. All that is left is our own assumption of what might seem obvious.

You look at sprite, art, and mugshot, and get three or four completely different looks.

All of these different forms have had art. Doesn't seem to be much of an inconsistency, rather, something deliberate.

But on the timeframe issue:  ZX.  Giro.  Dead in same game, and discolored from the waist down.

There's a key difference here, X does not appear in his projected robed form. The Vile's Incident image is not of the same type as Giro's projection. Also, both robed X and Giro were whole, even if static images.

It said "maybe" in regards to what they were doing, not that they "maybe" survived.

Playing devil's advocate here. Post mortum activities aren't exactly uncommon in this series. It is still our assumption that they are alive.

Barring the clear developer intent established there

Thing is, developer intent is not in question here. Inti's stance on the Guardians has always been one of circumstance. Can they make use them alive, or dead? As of Z4, there were still ideas floating about for their further use as living characters, which is only logical. Still, in the eventual need to make them dead, the Z3 ending was always made with that loophole in mind, as TELOS Harpuia lampshades. This is exactly what happened with ZX.

What is in question here, is if there is any facts of the continuity that have been altered. Whilst it is true that the creators made art with the idea that they're alive, but the resulting story context is left only to impression, not stated fact. As such, the answer is no, there is nothing to alter. Simply because their status is not confirmed in the continuity, only in out of continuity implications of developer intent.

In a similar but reverse scenario, before ZX there actually is no in-continuity statement of Zero's death in Z4. Thus they could at any given time have still decided to make him survive, even with the most convoluted of methods.

[Flame]

Cant we simply assume that at the time of making the image, they were still alive in the post Z4 world, but as of the decision made for ZX, they died in Z3 and thus that image no longer has story relevance as alive characters? Shouldnt we simply assume that they are thus dead in that picture, simply because it cannot be otherwise?
(Im probably still understanding the argument wrong, arent I...)

[Hypershell]

Yes, you are.  Zan is mainly arguing with me about how he defines "in continuity".  In my opinion this is splitting hairs, but what the heck?

Z1 Passy.

Not consistently.  Which begs the question of why Phantom is being differentiated from the others if they're all toast.  The time of death shpiel is just speculation to rationalize it.

X does not appear in his projected robed form.

He never does in any finished art; the only robed X artwork is concept.  Meanwhile, save mugshots, X's in-game appearances are only as either a golden speck or the robed projection.

Thing is, developer intent is not in question here.

I disagree wholeheartedly.  If you're saying that the account of their death in Z3 does not change what was established in continuity, then you could just as easily say the same of Elf Wars and Z1's continuity.  Nothing "in continuity" within Z1 is ignored, merely interpreted differently in light of what was revealed in the future.  Saying that Z2 changed the series while ZX did not is a double standard.

In a similar but reverse scenario, before ZX there actually is no in-continuity statement of Zero's death in Z4.

The difference is that Z4 had no sequel prior to ZX.  From a story-telling standpoint, leaving one's fate uncertain or with false implications for a cliffhanger is quite common.  However even ignoring the Physis art (which I am not content to do), Z3 left no such implications, and Z4 came and went saying nothing on the matter, indicating that no such expansion was needed.  It is therefore established, even if passively, that Z3's ending is to be taken at face value.  But once ZX was developed, that was no longer the case.

[Zan]

I disagree wholeheartedly.  If you're saying that the account of their death in Z3 does not change what was established in continuity, then you could just as easily say the same of Elf Wars and Z1's continuity.  Nothing "in continuity" within Z1 is ignored, merely interpreted differently in light of what was revealed in the future.  Saying that Z2 changed the series while ZX did not is a double standard.

The difference is that Z1-2 is reinterpretation of game facts. Whereas Z4-ZX is reinterpretation of a context questionable image, and developers being unsure in interviews about what the hell is going on. Only the implications of the aforementioned context questionable image can be remotely considered as part of continuity.

The issue I have here, is that you're viewing Z4-ZX as equal to Z1-2 in the scale of retroactive continuity. The Guardians' death is relatively minor compared to what how things changed upon Z2's release.

Z3 left no such implications

Harpuia:  However the future hidden in the shadows beyond the door may turn out.  Wind drives away the fog, fire shows the road.  Water enriches the body, and shadow reflects oneself...  By the four heavens, we will become a light to guide the world!  Master X..  For humans' sake, we can continue to fight.  Even if it means our lives are exhausted as an offering for justice.

Not consistently.  Which begs the question of why Phantom is being differentiated from the others if they're all toast.

The others? Just Leviathan's uneven foot. Being entirely serious here, had Nakayama taken that image and 'altered' it to respect their deaths. How would these effects even be portrayed with Leviathan? I just don't see how it can cause the whole ankle and foot to vanish as with Phantom.

[Flame]

Harpuia:  However the future hidden in the shadows beyond the door may turn out.  Wind drives away the fog, fire shows the road.  Water enriches the body, and shadow reflects oneself...  By the four heavens, we will become a light to guide the world!  Master X..  For humans' sake, we can continue to fight.  Even if it means our lives are exhausted as an offering for justice.

Didnt he, in game before leaving resistance base, also declare that he would gladly fight even if his body should fall into ruin?

[Hypershell]

Is that not only natural when you've just recovered from having the crap kicked out of you?  Harpuia was shot, whereas Zero landed in the freaking missile.

The difference is that Z1-2 is reinterpretation of game facts. Whereas Z4-ZX is reinterpretation of a context questionable image, and developers being unsure in interviews about what the hell is going on. Only the implications of the aforementioned context questionable image can be remotely considered as part of continuity.

The absence of something from continuity is as much part of continuity as its presence.  In that regard, it's not Z4-ZX but rather Z3-ZX, spanning three games rather than two.  For no reason is anyone's mortality in question during Z3, and Z4's existence says that it needs no further expansion.  That's why it's a retcon.  You're saying that it's not, because in asking whether or not they survived there was no solid answer.  The problem is, there was no reason to ask that question in the first place.

I'm getting a far less unsure vibe from that Q&A than you are, as well.  They state that they passed on a Z3 showdown because they did not want to dispose of the Guardians, and in addition, taking the word "Perhaps" as indicating their possible death only works with the quote out of context, since the previous paragraph stated that despite the Shitennou being Zero's rivals, "there is no way Zero can handle it [Operation Ragnarok] himself."  The Guardians being dead was simply not up for discussion.  

[spoiler=repost, for memory-refreshing and all]===<< Letter Introduction >>=============
I played Rockman Zero 4.  Why weren't the Shitennou there!?
I really like the Shitennou!  No, love the Shitennou!!
It's because the Shitennou are in it that RockZero is so interesting.
Even so they didn't appear this time, but why?

So please allow the four to appear in the next game, I beg you!!
Bring Phanto back to life please!!
Letter from Shimizu Aoi-san
=========================

Site Staff: Following the "EXE Corner" the "Zero Corner" will start.  To answer the questions this time, the Zero 4 creation team.

General Creation Team: Thank you for your passionate support of the Shitennou.

Truth is at first we had planned for Zero to have his final showdown with the Shitennou.  But for us, the creation staff, the Shitennou were very unforgettable strong characters, so some of us said "It would be poor for them to be defeated" and so it came out like that in Rockman Zero 3.

And then in Zero 4's continuation, this time with Vile's Operation Ragnarok there is disasters all over the world.  And so, the Shitennou, however much rivals to Zero, there's no way Zero can handle it himself.

It's because they were "Warriors born to protect humans".  Perhaps they were also in other places doing the same and probably fighting to protect humans.

To be frank, it's a regret we have after Rockman Zero 4 that we didn't put the Shitennou in, but now we know their popularity based on all the fans' support.  We can't promise, but if there is a chance we'll make sure the Shitennou will take part in some way sometime for the users.

Site Staff: They had that kind of talk during Zero 3... Thank you for the precious talk.  We'll enjoy when the day the acticity involving the Shitennou comes.[/spoiler]

The issue I have here, is that you're viewing Z4-ZX as equal to Z1-2 in the scale of retroactive continuity. The Guardians' death is relatively minor compared to what how things changed upon Z2's release.

I never said they were equal in scale, only that they are equally valid.  There's a difference.  Surely Elf Wars has a larger impact, but it doesn't make the Guardians' death any less retroactive.

Leviathan's uneven foot

It's called a "step", which involves placing one's feet at uneven elevations, either for the sake of moving to different elevations where no grade is available, or simply because adequate foot space does not exist in a single elevation.

They're standing in ruins.

I just don't see how it can cause the whole ankle and foot to vanish as with Phantom.

Save for the lack of gold trim, which is easily glazed over given how small/dark a space Phantom's feet occupy, nothing in the image says that Phantom's feet are vanishing.  The effects could easily be supplementary.

[Zan]

Is that not only natural when you've just recovered from having the crap kicked out of you?

Harpuia is clearly pondering about what lies beyond the door and is willing to sacrifice his life. That is exactly what happened in Inti's current elaboration of the event. As such, there was indeed some hint toward the possibility. Yes, it does not establish what will happen, but a potential loss of their life was in the back of the developer's mind. Which is very much why in retrospect that moment was chosen.

The problem is, there was no reason to ask that question in the first place.

Their absence was the reason to ask that question. And indeed, that question WAS asked by fans, even having people come up with exactly that explosion to explain their idea. You're turning a blind eye to exactly everything that happened on forums such as this one, following the release of Z4.

The only reason we ever shot down that idea was a lack of effects in Vile's Incident, and a few vague ideas in the back of the developers minds. The unwritten ideas of developers should never constitute continuity, otherwise, Dark Elf's origins would have been retconned twice before the game was even released!

As for the effects..

The effects could easily be supplementary.

Of course, we have absolutely nothing to confirm that the effects absolutely have to be there on Leviathan. As a matter of fact, the inconsistency in the portrayal of Cyber Elves in this series was already brought forth twice. With what we know of these effects, their presence confirms a program life-form, but their absence does not confirm that something is a not a program life form. Indeed, Passy's effects were only shown on the moment she began using her power, and SvC does not have it at all. Whatever rationale we apply, the basic facts that their absence does not deny presence, can not be denied.

All Inti acknowledged in MMZOCW was the intent with which the image was made, and that they covered up that intend by acknowledging exactly the vagueness of aspects of that picture. We as fans should acknowledge exactly where that vagueness lies, and not cling so vehemently to our general distaste of the Guardians being killed in such a mundane manner.

If there is anything I blame Inti for, in regards to the Guardians' deaths, it's not that we were lead to think the opposite by their fickle developer's intend, it's more so that they absolutely failed to address the matter in subsequent releases. Instead of retcon, I call plothole. The explanation or enactment of the scene in question should have been somewhere in ZX, Drama Tracks, or otherwise, with preferred tie in to exactly that image in Vile's Incident. That it's only implicated at in an interview, is a clear issue of their presentation rather than them changing what's already been established.

"there is no way Zero can handle it [Operation Ragnarok] himself."

Except, Zero did, by omission of the Guardians and later by MMZOCW's accord. Unless, you take into account the possibility of them assisting without the need of their physical bodies, as X and Phantom have both done in the past.

We can't promise, but if there is a chance we'll make sure the Shitennou will take part in some way sometime for the users.

We'll enjoy when the day the acticity involving the Shitennou comes.

Rockman ZX. Which just comes to show that post-mortum activity of characters in this series has started becoming somewhat of a norm.

[Hypershell]

Their absence was the reason to ask that question. And indeed, that question WAS asked by fans, even having people come up with exactly that explosion to explain their idea. You're turning a blind eye to exactly everything that happened on forums such as this one, following the release of Z4.

The question of whether or not they perished over the course of the series and whether or not they died in the ending of Z3 are not the same thing.  More on that later.

The only reason we ever shot down that idea was a lack of effects in Vile's Incident, and a few vague ideas in the back of the developers minds.

And Zero survived.  Which happened in-game.  His ride home was immobilized during the explosion.

The only way the Guardians' deaths make any sense is by rationalizing undepicted and unhinted off-screen events after the point.  By that logic anything can happen without "changing the series."  It's no different from having to re-interpret Z1's dialogue.  Between Z3 and Z4, there is no reason to believe the Guardians to be dead.  For them to be so is extraordinarily bad and unprofessional storytelling, even by MegaMan standards.  Their only possible cause of death during Z3 yields 1 confirmed survivor (2 if you count Mother Elf), 3 unaccounted, 0 confirmed dead.  You do the math.  The sequel game makes no mention of their fate, the situation of their previous home leaves them outcasts, and forces usually associated with the player have been divided up due to the scale of current events.  There is no reason in that scenario to question the Guardians' fate as of Z3's ending, not when no hint was ever given except for Zero's own survival, which works against it.  As do other issues that Inti is content to glaze over.

Speculation as to the Guardians' deaths in the Zero-series, for Z3, would have been senseless.  But if in a pre-MMZOCW world you're wondering whether they sruvived the entire Zero series, it would have been far more credible if they had been struck by Ragnarok when Craft fired.  Are you sure you're not confusing theories, Zan?

Either way, if they had died in one of Ragnarok's blasts, that I'd have bought under your "plothole rather than retcon" statement.  But not Omega.  Omega was done, overwith, and moved on, with what little information we had pointing towards survival.  It was very little, yes.  Z3 alone could not be taken as confirmation.  But if the sequel moves on offering no further information, that indicates that no further information is needed, lending credit to the existing hints.  If Zero survived, and the story-tellers see fit to offer no further comments, then the indication is that the Guardians survived.  There has to be some counter-point as a reason to believe otherwise in order for the event to be considered questionable.  That they do not appear in Z4 is insufficient, given both the scale of Operation Ragnarok and their general distaste for the idea of aiding Zero, it is very easily excusable.

Whatever rationale we apply, the basic facts that their absence does not deny presence, can not be denied.

If Phantom were not present, that would make sense.  But the fact that the artist differentiated between them says that they're there in different states.  You can say there's no rationale, but when you're rationale is coming from the exact same image you're questioning, it is very hard to ignore.  The "time of death" speculation is the only means to rationalize it, and that comes about simply due to hindsight.

Speaking of which, arguing over the image in hindsight is completely pointless.  Because Nakayama himself refused to commit to when that image is supposed to take place in the "revised" sequence of events, rationalizing the difference of effects is by no means necessary.  Technically speaking, we don't even know that they're looking at Ragnarok.  The matter of context, that being it appears in Vile's Incident, is the only thing gearing it towards that event.  But once Aizu and co. have given the "fanservice; we just threw it in there" dismissal, even that can't be taken for granted.  They could be looking at a comet on their way to fight Omega, for all we know.

We as fans should acknowledge exactly where that vagueness lies, and not cling so vehemently to our general distaste of the Guardians being killed in such a mundane manner.

Obviously.  But how is that any different than acknowledging general vagueness in Z1?

Except, Zero did, by omission of the Guardians and later by MMZOCW's accord.

False.  They said Operation Ragnarok, not Ragnarok the space station.  Big difference.

The Resistance was split and Zero had assistance from other units, Joan supplying them with analysis, Colbor and crew evacuating Neo Arcadians, and who knows who sending Criore (or whatever the hell you name your super-elf).  Zero may be taking out the big fish by himself, but in terms of Operation Ragnarok as a whole, no, he absolutely did not combat it alone.

[Zan]

Are you sure you're not confusing theories, Zan?

No, there have been a gazillion newbies who came in after Z4 and went exclaiming: I think the Guardians died in Omega's explosion! I honestly can't believe you don't remember this. We ironically shot down that theory time and time again.

The theory of them being hit by Ragnarok was never ever proposed. Probably due to their location in Vile's Incident.

that indicates that no further information is needed

Like no further information was needed to understand Zero becoming Omega? As we know it, the Rockman series has a bad reputation with providing the relevant information within the game that it is needed, often obtaining said info by interview and sourcebooks.

except for Zero's own survival, which works against it.

Zero's own survival demanded the Mother Elf's interference it would seem, bringing him back to the resistance base, unconscious. Why is Zero unconscious? The game gives us no reason for Zero to be, yet he is. Now considering that that the Mother Elf is clearly smitten with Zero and thus occupied with solely him, and that X lacks the power to pull off the same trick, we leave the ultimate faith of the three Guardians quite mysterious. Whatever knocked Zero unconscious might have affected them somehow as well. Let us not forget that all three of them were on the verge of death to begin with.

Technically speaking, we don't even know that they're looking at Ragnarok.  The matter of context, that being it appears in Vile's Incident, is the only thing gearing it towards that event.  But once Aizu and co. have given the "fanservice; we just threw it in there" dismissal, even that can't be taken for granted.  They could be looking at a comet on their way to fight Omega, for all we know.

And that's pretty much what I'm trying to say here, we don't quite know what it is we're looking at there. From them being alive or dead, Ragnarok or a comet, or even that we're in the Substance World to begin with. We can only make educated guesses, since we have no context of that scene. Within Vile's Incident too, that image is a great oddity, there's no definite way a photograph of that scene could have been taken, Montagne could never have included it in his report, yet we see it clearly as part of it. It's clearly some image solely the fans can see, instead of an actual part of Vile's Incident's narrative.

About the only thing we can tell is that the scene could be most likely after Will4, as all the Four Guardians are united with each other and Master X. X and Phantom are the only ones confirmed as dead, somehow or other those previously unseen fancy coats came to be, and there's some falling star in the sky.

I don't know how anybody can place these event between Will4 and Retrospect1. But like the Ragnarok interpretation, it's all a matter of Inti rationalizing it adequately. You know, I could care less about the Guardians' actual moment of death, as long as there is some epic scene to be written there. It's just very sad that Inti hasn't seen it fit to write and present this scene.

False.  They said Operation Ragnarok, not Ragnarok the space station.  Big difference.

Point stands, he did not get help from the four Guardians, unless this help is as Cyber Elves. Either Inti's Four Guardian help idea is no longer valid, or they can indeed do things when they're dead. The latter would actually nicely pave the way to ZX.

[DA Zero Nightmare!!!!]

hey wasn't the forbidden ark hidden in the background of area I in the first ZX, evertime I play that area i swear that was the ship that housed omega during his exile

[Flame]

Revival!

I dont think that's the Forbidden Ark... I think it might just be a fallen electric tower like the kind in area E. Or could it be?

On that note, the part in ZX, in Area I, where you fight the Mechaniloid Steephinx, (the miniboss) that round thing in the background, kind of resembles the giant orb behind X in Z2 that held Dark Elf, doesnt it...?

[Katsuragi]

Yes, at least me in fact do believe that the construction in the back is in fact the Tree of Life where X was sealing the Mother Elf. I even discussed that before with some friends in another forum, here some screens to let it more clear for us to discuss.

[Ladd Spencer]

These are the best kinds of Mega Man conversations.

[Flame]

They sure are.

[Treleus]

Refresh my memory a moment: did the Four Guardians not know that their fearless leader X happened to have two bodies? One sealing the Dark Elf and the other lording it over Reploids in Neo Arcadia?

Actually, did they even know about the Dark Elf in the first place?

[Zan]

They knew. But Copy-X is considered a revival of the original.

[Ladd Spencer]

Why didn't Ciel just put X' soul into a new body?

[Treleus]

Interesting. So they were just genuinely loyal to this "new" X and not what they thought was the real X.

By the way, I know it's already been deliberated in this thread, but I'm not sure if this theory has been proposed: what if X used the last bit of his strength to save the Three Guardians at the end of Z3? Considering X did just that in Z1 (or was it implied?), it's a plausible substitute for the lack of illumination on their fates. Other than them just dying.

It's clear that X didn't use his last reserves of energy to fight with Zero in an epic showdown or anything.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VRUBV7ccsw[/youtube]

Why didn't Ciel just put X' soul into a new body?

I think it's because X didn't want to be placed into a body. Tired of fighting, wanted to hang back.