Topic: What's up with ZX3?

[Pringer X]

Capcom knows and can make good games, with even their worser titles being good, but their main problem is how heavily they rely on sales, which is a ctually a good thing, since it prevents it from becoming another Sonic, but since they only pay attention to Japanese sales, THATS the problem, the way i see it.

I wonder if everyone here should spam RPM's site link to the guys over at Capcom <.< Seriously, if you combine the fanbases that exist in each country, you could get a LOT of ideas as to what to do with the series.

[Align]

I don't think there's a lack of ideas over at Capcom HQ either, though.

[Thanatos-Zero]

Well, by that is a grim future for Rockman. I think it is savely to assume that only Rockman games with the Exe and Shooting Star gameplay formula will survive.

Goodbye Classic

Goodbye X

Goodbye Zero

Goodbye ZX

And...

Goodbye Dash

Thank you Capcom, for not focusing on us. We the foreigns are so primitive, that our money is 0 and void.

I don't think there's a lack of ideas over at Capcom HQ either, though.

It is not the idea which makes the game interresting, but the execution of the idea.

[Satoryu]

Classic ain't dead anymore. Where were you this past year?

[Thanatos-Zero]

Classic ain't dead anymore. Where were you this past year?

Yet it is fresh, but what will the future tell?

[Hypershell]

What you need to bear in mind with MM9 is that it was a 20-man-or-so development team, which is peanuts compared to what making a game today usually takes.  Despite that it was still opposed because Capcom feared "retro" wouldn't be catchy enough.  Of course, it was, and every developer and their dog jumped on the boat.  So are we still going to appreciate the NES style next sequel?  Next two, three sequels?

I probably wouldn't.  I'd buy them anyway, seeings how I'm a MegaMan nut, but I still say that MM9 for all its WiiWare bells and whistles still yields an inferior result to MM1-3.  ProtoMan is the main saving grace, and you're punished with extra damage and knockback with him.  Not fun.

Capcom knows and can make good games, with even their worser titles being good, but their main problem is how heavily they rely on sales, which is a ctually a good thing, since it prevents it from becoming another Sonic, but since they only pay attention to Japanese sales, THATS the problem

Quite the contrary, Sonic relies rather heavily on sales.  Sega wouldn't keep churning out those games if they were not profitable.  In fact I recall much editor-rage over how well Shadow The Hedgehog did.  Fact is, Sonic fans are gluttons for punishment.  They (or rather "we") really WANT to believe that a good game will come, and they keep buying the crap.  Because, we all know, if the crap bombs that doesn't mean Sega will make quality; it means they'll stop making anything at all.  Amongst the crap they do churn out, we did get Secret Rings and Rush.  So even though we're not seeing anything in the calibur of Sonic Adventure 2 or S3&K again, there is still the occasional "on the right track" game.

With the exception of Unleashed, the soundtrack usually justifies the purchase anyway.

I would also point out that ZXA sales actually climbed over ZX sales in the U.S.  The talk of ZXA "bombing" refers exclusively to Japan.  Unfortunately, Capcom's policies care only about Japanese sales (although numerous interview with Inafune indicate that he personally doesn't agree with that).

Presentation-wise ZXA was definitely superior, especially in non-Japanese areas where there's the crapass ZX localization to put up with.  But it watered down your entire arsenal, axed X and OX completely, and the unlockable form was garbage as was the fact that half the Chip selection is both post-game and date-related.  Arsenal is a big part of MegaMan and so that really hurt a lot.  In terms of execution and features, ZXA was an improvement.  But to many, myself included, ZX's superior arsenal makes it the more enjoyable title.

although theres quite a few who have the mistaken belief that it would be cool and "retro" ignoring the fact that it would subtract from the story's quality, since the story has evolved far from the SNES games, to where an snes game couldnt really hold the kind of storytelling that has developed.

Thank you.  Glad I'm not the only one who notices this stuff.

It is not the idea which makes the game interresting, but the execution of the idea.

Very true.

[Zan]

it got a sequel, but not enough to put much effort into the sequel. The result, ZXA. which just couldnt live up to ZX1, and bombed.

We've had this discussion before, Flame, and you should know my response. What you're saying is simply nonsense.

Advent is a game that clearly fixed a tremendous amount of issues from the first ZX. All the key annoyances of ZX were taken care of. It is a much more streamlined game.

I strongly disagree with your assessment on music; Inti's games all have the same musical quality, that simply boils down to musical taste, not quality. Likewise, as a spriter, I consider your point on backgrounds moot; I have never even noticed this difference and I still do not. Also I raise in counter the immense improvement in character sprites in Advent. The fact that you can play as the bosses is already a testimony to the tremendous effort put into Advent. The graphical effort put into that alone easily outweighs yours point on backgrounds.

Furthermore, do I really need to remind you that Advent sold more than ZX in the rest of the world? It's only Japan's audience that's picky, and they've been picky with everything Rockman for the longest time now.

In all honesty, I would appreciate it if you would stop saying Advent was a decline in quality compared to ZX. You're starting to sound like OmegaZ and his foolish idea that Inti has lost their magic touch.

Really, Advent really wasn't a decline from ZX. If anything, Advent and ZX are like Z4 and Z3; of equal quality. It's simply the case that Inti's series has hit quality's peak unless a radical new direction is entered. After Z4, ZX was that new direction and it was certainly in many ways an improvement on the ZERO-series. Quality has never been Inti's issue. With their stagnating sales what they need is not more quality; they need to find the direction that sells.

although theres quite a few who have the mistaken belief that it would be cool and "retro" ignoring the fact that it would subtract from the story's quality, since the story has evolved far from the SNES games, to where an snes game couldnt really hold the kind of storytelling that has developed.

In all honesty, I think SNES story mechanics could do some good to make an X-series title be as appreciated as Rockman9. It's not the graphics, but rather that simplicity that really worked in R9's favor.

Mind you, I don't mean this for a mainstream sequel, bur rather some sidestory that can help rekindle people's interest in the X-series as a gameplay experience.

I probably wouldn't.  I'd buy them anyway, seeings how I'm a MegaMan nut, but I still say that MM9 for all its WiiWare bells and whistles still yields an inferior result to MM1-3.

I believe we can both agree that this "inferior result" is mostly a result of the game's difficulty. I think in regards to arsenal and other innovate concepts R9 is a very high quality title. They just need to work on the game starting out like hell and ending up like a memorization cakewalk.

That and including things like Endless Stage as part of the main package...

[Protoman Blues]

So are we still going to appreciate the NES style next sequel?  Next two, three sequels?

Absolutely 100% yes from PB.  The NES games are all I look for in MM games.  They are the ones I play & replay more than any other. 

[Hypershell]

Well, if they can get it right, maybe.  I view MM9 as at best a good start.  I still find the actual NES games more appealing.  Not that MM9 doesn't have its strong points, but if they're going to go that direction then they need to one-up their execution and not rely solely on retro presentation.  There is a lot in MM9 that I feel, if done in a graphically updated game, would never have been excused.

I believe we can both agree that this "inferior result" is mostly a result of the game's difficulty. I think in regards to arsenal and other innovate concepts R9 is a very high quality title. They just need to work on the game starting out like hell and ending up like a memorization cakewalk.

That, and the entire shop system blows.  I find it poor practice in a MegaMan game to sell temporary power-ups as an excuse to barely bother scattering them in actual stages.  Especially when obtaining infinite currency is a simple matter of Jewel Satellite, Telly Bomb spawn point, and finding something not related to the TV to occupy yourself for a few hours.

Rather bizarre design choice to make the challenge/eye-candy items so expensive, as well.

[Flame]

That, and the entire shop system blows.  I find it poor practice in a MegaMan game to sell temporary power-ups as an excuse to barely bother scattering them in actual stages. 

which is one of the main reasons I dislike X8.

[Hypershell]

X8 at least sold you (mostly) permanent power-ups.  Although I'm not sure how I feel about axing Heart Tanks, and the unmarked Crystal Wall metals were definitely uncalled for.  But at least there's always the armor capsules.  I actually keep a New Game Plus save unarmored but with 100% shop stuff (minus a rare metal that requires Icarus's head) for that very reason.  Makes the game a lot more replay-friendly.

In virtually any MegaMan game, there's always stuff to nab in the stages.  Even MM1 at least had Magnet Beam, and extra lives that didn't come from a store.  In MM9 there is almost nothing beyond the random bolt drops, and absolutely nothing that cannot be bought.  So a Jewel Satellite session later, the game is reduced to a simple run for the goal (further encouraged by the leaderboards which none but the inhumanly obsessive and probably hacking care about anymore).  If I wanted that I'd play Sonic.

[Flame]

X8 at least sold you (mostly) permanent power-ups.  Although I'm not sure how I feel about axing Heart Tanks, and the unmarked Crystal Wall metals were definitely uncalled for.  But at least there's always the armor capsules.  I actually keep a New Game Plus save unarmored but with 100% shop stuff (minus a rare metal that requires Icarus's head) for that very reason.  Makes the game a lot more replay-friendly.

In virtually any MegaMan game, there's always stuff to nab in the stages.  Even MM1 at least had Magnet Beam, and extra lives that didn't come from a store.  In MM9 there is almost nothing beyond the random bolt drops, and absolutely nothing that cannot be bought.  So a Jewel Satellite session later, the game is reduced to a simple run for the goal (further encouraged by the leaderboards which none but the inhumanly obsessive and probably hacking care about anymore).  If I wanted that I'd play Sonic.

1 also had the pinwheel in Wily's castle, for what its worth.
also, the capsules would have been the "well, at least..." But they aere very badly hidden due to the simplistic level design. Some were right in plain sight. 2 actually. 1 actually didnt require anything but revisiting the stage after beating it. I remmber back in the day we used to have to climb spiked walls to get armor parts, or we had to notice that the right side of the area seemingly didnt have a wall...

Or then theres X5 and 6's capsules... X7 didnt hide them too well either, but the stages were 3D, so sometimes they were easy to miss. and the plain sight ones were sometimes annoying to get to.

[AquaTeamV3]

also, the capsules would have been the "well, at least..." But they aere very badly hidden due to the simplistic level design. Some were right in plain sight. 2 actually. 1 actually didnt require anything but revisiting the stage after beating it. I remmber back in the day we used to have to climb spiked walls to get armor parts, or we had to notice that the right side of the area seemingly didnt have a wall...

Or then theres X5 and 6's capsules... X7 didnt hide them too well either, but the stages were 3D, so sometimes they were easy to miss. and the plain sight ones were sometimes annoying to get to.

Capsules stopped being fun to find after X4.  The one in Storm Owl's stage was particularly frustrating to get the first time through.  Now the locations seem painfully obvious as to where Light's hidden them.

[OmegaZ]

I don't see how this went from ZX to X, but alright,

Looking back, I kind-of agree with Zan, that was kinda dumb what I said about Inti losing it's magic, if anything, ZX and ZXA were kind-of equal, they had their bad and good, ZX's storyline execution was it's bad point, while ZXA's form execution was bad, but they could've been worse,

sorry for being a dumbass.

[Hypershell]

I don't see how this went from ZX to X, but alright,

Actually, it was ZX-to-Classic-to-X.

Something about retro.  *shrugs*

[Flame]

I don't see how this went from ZX to X, but alright,

Looking back, I kind-of agree with Zan, that was kinda dumb what I said about Inti losing it's magic, if anything, ZX and ZXA were kind-of equal, they had their bad and good, ZX's storyline execution was it's bad point, while ZXA's form execution was bad, but they could've been worse,

sorry for being a dumbass.

Dont sweat it. Everyone gets caught up in the moment occasionally. I tend to get heated up over the "retro" argument in relevance to the X series.

Capsules stopped being fun to find after X4.  The one in Storm Owl's stage was particularly frustrating to get the first time through.  Now the locations seem painfully obvious as to where Light's hidden them.

Storm Owl's capsule was frustrating, but to the point where when I actually got up there, it felt just that much more satisfying.
X5 had that Mattrex capsule, which just sat there and teased you until you got Falcon.
X6's most annoying capsule was really Turtloid's. and even that was easy to get to if you abused of the Battons.

X7 had *alright* placement. A few were cleverly hidden, Stonekong comes to mind, and a few were right in plain sight, (Hyena) while a few were somewhat of a nuisance to get to. (Anteater) But X8 had them right in plain sight. Yeti's capsule was just about the one best hidden.

[Satoryu]

You don't need anything for Mattrex's capsule. Just the Ride Armor. Concerning X8, I wouldn't say Antonion's was in plain sight.

But X6 had the most devilish hiding spot for a capsule. Who'd have thought to go LEFT in the beginning of Mijinion's secondary?

[HyperSonicEXE]

But X6 had the most devilish hiding spot for a capsule. Who'd have thought to go LEFT in the beginning of Mijinion's secondary?

*raises hand*

And that was before I read Zero's hint.

[Hypershell]

Same.

BTW, the capsules which taunt you with needing Falcon Armor in X5 are Skiver's and Axle The Red's.  You CAN reach them as Zero, but it takes a whole bunch of crap, and the fact that it is mandatory to miss at least half the Power-Up Parts in the game doesn't leave good odds with it being possible in a casual playthrough.

That is one of my many gripes with the game; the improper execution of the Gaia Armor.  It's too unavailable.  Unless you're deliberately "questing" for it while doing as little as possible (which is discouraged due to the Eurasia timer), you won't get it until you're ready to tackle Zero Virus 1, right when its limitations hurt it the most.  Even if you do hunt for it purposefully, you'll still have to visit every stage and clear 3 of them (all of which are Falcon/Enigma levels anyway) if you're doing it as X.  If you're 3l33t enough to do it as Zero, you're a little better off since you only need to clear Grizzly and Skiver.

[SoloUnit315]

You're starting to sound like OmegaZ and his foolish idea that Inti has lost their magic touch.

I honestly feel that Inti HAS lost their magic touch in regards to Megaman. The reason why? They are whoring megaman out way too much. There's very little of what made megaman megaman left. There's too much story involved where there should be a very minor amount. And it's getting to the point where you don't even play as Megaman anymore. There are a mess of abilities that just don't seem "megamanish" to me.

 None of this seems charming to me, and my opinion is shared by many fans. But I guess that's just an opinion based on the fact that we grew up with the classics. These games aren't directed toward classic fans, they are directed toward the next generation of people that may have little knowledge of the contrast between megaman then and megaman now. I like megaman then, so I'd find a ZX3 to be in poor taste for me.

[Flame]

I honestly feel that Inti HAS lost their magic touch in regards to Megaman. The reason why? They are whoring megaman out way too much. There's very little of what made megaman megaman left. There's too much story involved where there should be a very minor amount. And it's getting to the point where you don't even play as Megaman anymore. There are a mess of abilities that just don't seem "megamanish" to me.

Lol, tell me what Megaman Games Inti's made, and just how much involvement they have with Capcom's Megaman outside of what Capcom tells them to do.

[Zan]

There's very little of what made megaman megaman left.

ZX Advent and Rockman9.

And it's getting to the point where you don't even play as Megaman anymore.

Can I presume you're not a DASH fan? That's where ZX has always been heading. It was intended to be a comfortable transition from the world of Rockman Zero to the world of Rockman DASH. In doing so, it borrows elements from all of Rockman in an attempt to unify the five series. ZX combines classic with X with ZERO with DASH.
 

These games aren't directed toward classic fans, they are directed toward the next generation of people that may have little knowledge of the contrast between megaman then and megaman now. I like megaman then, so I'd find a ZX3 to be in poor taste for me.

There's so many homages to the whole Rockman series present in the ZX-series, I don't know where you come from saying it was clearly built for a new generation. The fact that you can find the writers cracking jokes about NES covers and making references to obscure wonderswan games, as well as them offering the ability play the whole of ZX Advent as little NES sprite, should have made clear the amount of effort to appease the old generation of fans.

[Align]

I honestly feel that Inti HAS lost their magic touch in regards to Megaman. The reason why? They are whoring megaman out way too much. There's very little of what made megaman megaman left. There's too much story involved where there should be a very minor amount. And it's getting to the point where you don't even play as Megaman anymore. There are a mess of abilities that just don't seem "megamanish" to me.

I'm just going to go ahead and call you an idiot now, because there're a number of huge differences between the different series in the franchise - for example, the amount of story. MM9 had a minimal amount (part of why it was so "meh" to me, but yet I think it's only appropriate), and so it fit perfectly with the rest of Classic.

The other games Inti have made created their own series and are free to be as different as they want. Legends was extremely different already, so noone can claim there was no precedence.

[Flame]

There's so many homages to the whole Rockman series present in the ZX-series, I don't know where you come from saying it was clearly built for a new generation. The fact that you can find the writers cracking jokes about NES covers and making references to obscure wonderswan games, as well as them offering the ability play the whole of ZX Advent as little NES sprite, should have made clear the amount of effort to appease the old generation of fans.

Just to add to, and emphasize that point...
http://forum.rockmanpm.com/index.php?topic=2978.new#new

[SoloUnit315]

You can call me an idiot, I just stated it was an opinion of mine. I'm not stating it as a fact, or as though it's gospel. I just "feel" that way. No sense in getting irritated over an opinion that is stated to be as such, an opinion.