Youtube Debate MM2 or MM3 (Timeline Updated)

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Offline Gatuca

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on: November 02, 2009, 08:27:40 AM
i was thinkin on makin something like this before, and i dont know if this is an appropriate way to do so, but here's the thing, i decided to make a Video Activity between some friends and you guys, to see your toughts in a funny executed manner

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcYgN5sU2ks[/youtube]

it's a little game that i want to do, and because i want that we all share some fun

now here are the rules.

1.- It need to be a video response (tough you can leave comments as well)
2.- it has too be in somewhat in the style of Nostalgia Critic Old Vs New Episodes (in wich you offer your own toughts on some of the categories and do some comparisons, either verbally or with samples like audio, images or footage)
3.- be truly honest and funny
4- only reply if you have played the 2 games (doesn't matter if you use emulator)
5.- you have until November 7  (UPDATE, the timeline now is until December 10) to post your response
6.- Use images to provide some visual representation
7.- if you want to references some of the later games, (3-9 as well as megaman 1), do so, as long as your main focus
     are parts 2 & 3.

Here are the Categories

*1.- Best Game play
*2.- Best Robot Masters (compare the 8 robot masters from each game)
*3.- Best Weapons (compare the weapons of both games and give your toughts)
4.- Best Design
5.- Best Soundtrack
*6.- Best Ideas
*7.- Best Game

I will make my own video during the main time line (probably at the end), but i want to known your thoughts
see you later
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 12:41:48 AM by baragon-kun »

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Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #1 on: November 02, 2009, 09:43:16 AM
Can I compare MM1 with MM6 instead?



Offline Rin

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Reply #2 on: November 02, 2009, 01:22:19 PM
Can I compare MM1 with MM6 instead?
He clearly stated, that he wants us to compare 2 and 3.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #3 on: November 02, 2009, 06:07:21 PM
An interesting challenge, although MM2 seems to hold an inordinate amount of sway nowadays.  In the end I think it really comes right down to personal choice, but it might be interesting to compare the two ala NC.


Offline Keno

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Reply #4 on: November 03, 2009, 10:36:30 AM
He clearly stated, that he wants us to compare 2 and 3.
You clearly don't need, a comma immediately after your verb.



Offline Zan

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Reply #5 on: November 03, 2009, 02:07:35 PM
Quote
You clearly don't need, a comma immediately after your verb.

It's for dramatic effect. But not good enough.

OBJECTION!
He clearly stated... that he wants us to compare 2 and 3!


Anyway, you know, the whole "youtube" aspect of this thread is very off-putting, so I'm going to ignore that part... If I were to compare 2 and 3; I'd say they're about equal.

Both games have their issues, but I think they're about equal. 2 simply has a certain charm and nostalgia to it that makes it hard for any other game to exceed it. 3 is a game that comes close to combining that with better graphics and functionality, but is ultimately brought back down by the quirks of its production being rushed. The later games improve on things a lot, but they are hit hard by the "more of the same" factor, so they ultimate can't make a dent in 2's popularity.

One notably thing after 2 is that there hasn't been a single all purpose special weapon again. Which is good for balance, but it also seems to go with the idea that special weapons are not allowed to be truly useful. I think for 3 a lot of the weapons are a bit too straightforward or hard to use. But the same can be said for a lot of the other NES games. The only game that truly did Special Weapons right was 9, but that one is a rather unique case, quality title that avoids many mistakes of the past, but because of that has a few issues uniquely its own.

Which really just returns me to where I started; 2 and 3, and pretty much all the games, they're all quality titles though all of them are imperfect in their own unique way. The difference here is not one of quality, but of preference. The MM series has established such a wide spectrum of tiny differences within the same basic mold, that there is always something a fan will dislike because it's ever so slightly different from a previous title. Just as much, if it's not different, then people will dislike it for being the exact same.

My own preference personally goes to 2 for familiarity and nostalgia, but 3 is growing on me as I play it more.



Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #6 on: November 03, 2009, 09:18:42 PM
What?  Not even RockMan and Forte did special weapons right?



Offline Zan

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Reply #7 on: November 03, 2009, 11:32:00 PM
I was talking about 1~6+9. Not RnF, nor 8, nor 7, nor any other.

And RnF was pretty bad with its mandatory ice wall use at times.



Offline AquaTeamV3

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Reply #8 on: November 04, 2009, 01:09:53 AM
I think I like 3 a bit more than 2, as there were some aspects that I really liked in that game.  Sliding is pretty nice and really makes boss fights more lively.  The game also felt more balanced as a whole, and I didn't have to worry about stuff like MM2's fortress boss that required a certain number of Crash Bombs to defeat.  Seriously, the first time I came in there, I had less than enough energy and was pretty much screwed.

I think MM2 had better tunes overall, although MM3 by no means had a lackluster soundtrack.  They were both good games, but I do find MM2 to be a tad bit overrated, personally.

One notably thing after 2 is that there hasn't been a single all purpose special weapon again. Which is good for balance, but it also seems to go with the idea that special weapons are not allowed to be truly useful. I think for 3 a lot of the weapons are a bit too straightforward or hard to use. But the same can be said for a lot of the other NES games. The only game that truly did Special Weapons right was 9, but that one is a rather unique case, quality title that avoids many mistakes of the past, but because of that has a few issues uniquely its own.

What, MM8's Flash Bombs weren't good enough?  I guess they didn't up and fly in all directions like MB, but I still found MM8's arsenal as a whole to be pretty useful.  Of course Arrow Shot overrode that entirely, but yeah.  I should also mention that allowing the player to be able to use the Buster and Weapons at the same time (MM8) pretty much gives the player no really good reason as to why they shouldn't have a weapon equipped.

Metal Blade is nice and all, but MM3 (and others) actually gave you motivation to use more than one weapon in the game.  Granted, most games always have that one useless weapon, and some had terrible arsenals overall, but as a whole the arsenals are pretty balanced.  MB was pretty overpowered looking back on it now, and there really was no need to bother with any other weapon in the game.

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Offline Zan

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Reply #9 on: November 04, 2009, 01:36:23 AM
Do I really have to repeat my previous post?

Quote
I was talking about 1~6+9. Not RnF, nor 8, nor 7, nor any other.



Offline Night

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Reply #10 on: November 04, 2009, 01:52:09 AM
Do I really have to repeat my previous post?


I think you should really look over it again. Using that excuse isn't really cutting it...

Quote
The only game that truly did Special Weapons right
Quote
after 2 is that there hasn't been a single all purpose special weapon again

From my point of view, you are speaking of either all megaman games or the ones just after 1.
You can't dismiss their input just by saying "you weren't talking about it", because your were whether you knew it or not.



Offline AquaTeamV3

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Reply #11 on: November 04, 2009, 03:16:02 AM

Do I really have to repeat my previous post?

I think you should really look over it again. Using that excuse isn't really cutting it...

Quote
The only game that truly did Special Weapons right
...
after 2 is that there hasn't been a single all purpose special weapon again

From my point of view, you are speaking of either all megaman games or the ones just after 1.
You can't dismiss their input just by saying "you weren't talking about it", because your were whether you knew it or not.


Yeah, you kinda threw me off there, as your post read as if you were talking about the series as a whole.  That said, MM3's Needle Cannon was the closest thing to an all-purpose weapon that MM3 had, and Shadow Blade was basically a poor man's Metal Blade.  I agree that most of the NES games had less-than-amazing arsenals, though, barring Rush and Beat support.

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Offline Zan

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Reply #12 on: November 04, 2009, 04:10:02 AM
Night, I said "NES games" directly preceding the bolded "only game". 9 included because that is what it intends to be. Reread what I said and think within the scope of just those games. The three non NES mainstream titles offer little in a comparison between NES games.

And even if included, 2 remains the only game to have such an all purpose special weapon because it is completely broken. No other weapon works that well on virtually everything. It's literally the way to kill the majority of the bosses in that game. And exactly because it's broken, 2 holds such a special place amongst the series.

After Rockman2, Rockman3 just doesn't stand out special weapons, quite a few of them are straightforward projectiles or a weaker version of previous weapons. There is the Shadow Blade - Metal Blade comparison, but that's acceptable given Metal Blade being far too broken. However, comparing a weapon such as Spark Shock to the Thunder Beam one can't help but think it should have been much more impressive or effective. All it really does is stun enemies that are otherwise more easily killed, and even in that regards, Ice Slasher exceeds it.

Fast forwarding, Special Weapons got increasingly useless in the later NES titles. 7, 8 and RnF improved on it all, especially 8's addition of two attack buttons. But it is still 9 that is truly an unprecedented title in which virtually all Special Weapons are unique and both multi-functional and efficient in battle.

But back to 2 and 3. If you compare their respective arsenal and ignore the Metal Blade being broken, the other Special Weapons in 2 offer quite a lot it in terms of diversity and efficiency. Whilst 3 has all sorts of projectiles, 2 had time manipulation, a shield, and even the first case of the ability to charge.

All in all, 2 beats 3 in Special Weapon functionality if you ask me. But 2 can't hold a candle to 3's graphics, 3's story presentation and 3's introduction of the Weapon Get screen.




Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #13 on: November 04, 2009, 04:50:04 AM
I think my opinions shuld be glaringly obvious.

I'll say that I was never too impressed with MM2's weapons.  Sure, Metal Blades make MM into a GOD.  The rest aren't that awsome, IMHO.  they have their place, but ... I've never been overly impressed with them.  Speed gamers who can do tricks witht hem impress me even more because of this point of view, but that's how I sees it.


Offline Keno

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Reply #14 on: November 04, 2009, 07:22:38 AM
And RnF was pretty bad with its mandatory ice wall use at times.
Weren't you just complaining about a single weapon not being useful enough? Are you ever content?



Offline Zan

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Reply #15 on: November 04, 2009, 03:45:47 PM
Quote
Weren't you just complaining about a single weapon not being useful enough?

There's a big difference between being useful and being mandatory. Ice Wall is too forced upon the player that chooses Rockman, whereas it's useless with Forte. Not to mention that its role should by tradition be given to Rush or another non boss ability.

Furthermore, I never said I wanted a return of the broken Metal Blade. There should not be a single all purpose Special Weapon; all weapons should be balanced, multi-functional and efficient.

Quote
I'll say that I was never too impressed with MM2's weapons.  Sure, Metal Blades make MM into a GOD.  The rest aren't that awsome, IMHO.  they have their place, but ... I've never been overly impressed with them.  Speed gamers who can do tricks witht hem impress me even more because of this point of view, but that's how I sees it.

I think it's mostly that I feel a few of 3's weapons could stand to have some additional improvements. Spark Shock for instance, is the visually least impressive electric weapon in the entire series. It either could have used better sprites, or fired more than a single projectile or should have had the ability to aim.

That reminds me, is there actually a proper use of the Spark Shock? It stuns enemies, still allows for contact damage and unlike Ice Slasher, does not allow one to switch to another weapon. Most minor enemies are better off just being shot with the buster, and most bigger stronger enemies can't be cleared by jumping... Where is using it a particularly useful practice? MegaMan1's Ice Slasher was quite useful for taking care of Big Eye's, but there are none in 3...

Then we have Shadow Blade... It probably removed a little too much of Metal Blade's infinite usefulness, either it should have had more distance, or had the ability to fire downward, but not both. I admit, though, it's tough to balance a weapon such as this without falling into the same pitfall as the Metal Blade.

I also find it noticeable that none of the weapons can pass through enemies. Some of the weapons, like Search Snake or Gemini Laser, could have surely benefited from going through enemies that were weak enough to be destroyed in a single hit.

Of course, with Gemini Laser, that opens up a whole new can of worms in that you can't fire again until the first shot vanishes... it's a powerful weapon (more powerful than Hard Knuckle...) but should have had a way to cancel it, or allowed for more than a single attack on screen. It is a great weapon, granted you don't miss a single shot.

Hard Knuckle just needed less firing delay, and perhaps more damage (why does Gemini Laser exceed it?..). Needle Cannon does its thing well enough. Magnet Missile is probably the best weapon in the game, though I'm not sure if it's a blessing or a curse that a lot of enemy projectiles can be destroyed and tracked by it...

As for Top Spin, great once you actually know how to abuse, but badly programmed for inexperienced users. It would have been better if energy use wasn't linked to contact and if it had a bigger Hit Detection box that was clearly visible by effects.

Quote
Speed gamers who can do tricks witht hem impress me even more because of this point of view, but that's how I sees it.

I think knowing the kind of tricks that speed gamers use certainly makes the weapons more appealing. It's one of the reasons why 9's weapons are quite infamous. For 2 I know quite a few tricks, but not for 3, which probably skews my perception of their usefulness. Do you happen to have any good examples of 3's weapons in practice throughout the stages?



Offline Da Dood

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Reply #16 on: November 04, 2009, 04:51:26 PM
If you could run through enemies while Spark Shock is in effect, it would have been awesome.

I have toyed several times with the idea of improving each game's arsenal, and 9's is pretty much the only I wouldn't touch.

I like 3's selection because the game does a pretty good job at making enemies weak to each weapon, regardless of their functionality, but I agree it has plenty of issues.

As for the better game, I have no doubt 2 is the best, even though I personally like 3 more. I think 3 has a weird charm about it, in enemy design, animation, sound and even its color palette. To me the one event that translates 3's quirky charm is when you absorb a boss's power and the inventory opens up showing you the new weapon. When I was a kid I used to worship that, it was an incredibly cool and imposing effect.


Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #17 on: November 04, 2009, 06:07:32 PM
Every time I get dragged into a debate here I tend to regret it, so I won't answer things specifically.

Personally speaking, in MM2 I only ever use Metal Blade; the others only when required.  In MM3 I tend to use most of the weapons.  I don't, however, use Spark Shock too much.


Offline Blackhook

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Reply #18 on: November 04, 2009, 06:31:20 PM
The MM3 weapons are fun to use:
- You can breeze trough most of the enemies using the Top spin
- Somethings above you? Shadow blade is the answer...ok it´s a weaker Metal blade, but you didn´t expect to gain full control of it like ShadowMan, didn´t you?
- taking down stronger enemies and sub bosses with Hard Knuckle/Gemini laser + gemini laser slows down time...ok it is a lag but you know
- Magnet missle is great....but why is it atracted by bullets?
- Search snake is a cuter version of the Bubble lead...you know what that means...
- Needle canon isn´t exactly a canon...it´s a machine gun! A freakin´ neat one

Except for metal blade I

Rush beats the items in 2 easily

The RM stages in both games are fun except for Crash Man´s in 2 (Boooorin elevators) and Top Man´s in 3 (


Offline Keno

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Reply #19 on: November 04, 2009, 08:00:23 PM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTqp7jUBoA8[/youtube]

DEBATE OVER

MM3 was when the plot for Mega Man got ballsy & actually made Wily dead, until 4 [tornado fang]'d that all up, obviously. It was never really as implied as strongly as in 3 that this might be the final showdown, & I like to treat 1-3 as a separate story arch with that as an alternate ending. It's like how you have to look at pre-Trunks differently than post-Trunks.

As for RnF's weapons, I thought they were the best set. I use Wave Burner for the invincible things that slide back & forth. Remote Mine is so awesome I wanna [parasitic bomb] my pants. Copy Shot is good for all sorts of things. Magic Card is boss. Tengu Blade I never use, but only because the slice overrides the slide. I think it should've just given Mega Man a dash that he couldn't jump out of like a dash, but could still cancel like a dash. Spread Drill had mad good range, & Lightning Bolt was your typical screen nuke.



Offline Flame

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Reply #20 on: November 04, 2009, 09:32:06 PM
Duno. I didnt like MnB's weapons that much... Remote mine and Wave burner were the only ones I found myself using, with magic card only for getting items. Lightning bolt was too expensive to use, and for the most time, I felt obligated to use my buster over any of them, as Bass OR Megaman. Plus they REALLY didnt make the game for Megaman. He was just an afterthought when they remembered it was a MEGAMAN game.

Also, discussion over indeed. I liked 3's music better really. I swear, Ive heard Wily stage 1 from 2 SO many times, it is so overused, and over remixed, (almost all of which sound exactly the same) that I hate hearing it. 3's music never seems to get old though. especially that Wily stage 2.  That and Sparkman are my favorite tracks.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Keno

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Reply #21 on: November 04, 2009, 09:43:39 PM
All the Masters' stages were awesome in 3.



Offline Flame

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Reply #22 on: November 04, 2009, 10:02:52 PM
Yknow, now that I reflect upon it, I actually liked 3's Wily stage 4, not 2, best.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #23 on: November 04, 2009, 10:10:34 PM
I was about to say that MM4's Wily Stages are underrated, but then I realized that I do hear Wily Stage 2 remixed a lot from MM4.



Offline Gatuca

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Reply #24 on: November 05, 2009, 12:44:26 AM
if there's any problem with youtube responces  >0<

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