X8. I didnt like it all that much.

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Offline Flame

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Reply #150 on: September 23, 2009, 06:12:34 AM
I do. His regain health while standing still ability makes him good for folding GBAs on the go. Or one can play the game in not retarded easy mode with Bass. Love him though I do, he's a bit overpowered. Fun, but not for as long as Mega Man, at least, until you can be as proficient with both. My days of not raping the bullshit out of MM&B are long since past.

Actually its more like they specifically made the game for bass, then remembered it was a classic Megaman game, and threw Megaman in, giving him just enough obtainable items that he can complete the game, but not really caring that its so [tornado fang]ing annoying.

Bass is good for stages, But Megaman is better with the bosses because he can fire charged shots.

Go figure.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #151 on: September 23, 2009, 09:59:05 AM



Offline AquaTeamV3

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Reply #152 on: September 24, 2009, 01:05:26 AM

Bass is good for stages, But Megaman is better with the bosses because he can fire charged shots.

Go figure.

Bass can be fun to play in stages, but bosses are pretty much a nightmare until you get that power-up part.  Megaman's more fun to play overall, especially considering the fact that he gets a few bonuses Bass doesn't, like Eddie and Beat support.  Auto-Recover is pretty much win, and he also has that danger item that makes him stronger when his health is low IIRC.

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Reply #153 on: September 24, 2009, 02:51:09 AM
I'm pretty sure auto-recover and danger stuff is available to both characters.

Besides MegaMan having more support and charged shots, he also has an easier time against King's tank.  Bass totally pjwnz the first Wily Machine with Treble Boost, though.

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Reply #154 on: September 24, 2009, 04:41:35 AM
I'm pretty sure auto-recover and danger stuff is available to both characters.

Besides MegaMan having more support and charged shots, he also has an easier time against King's tank.  Bass totally pjwnz the first Wily Machine with Treble Boost, though.

I just checked, and the danger item is available to both characters.  Auto-heal is MM exclusive, though.

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Offline Keno

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Reply #155 on: September 24, 2009, 11:25:19 AM
Besides MegaMan having more support and charged shots, he also has an easier time against King's tank.
Uh, Bass is quite fine & easy.

Bass totally pjwnz the first Wily Machine with Treble Boost, though.
Or by himself.



Offline Waifu

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Reply #156 on: September 24, 2009, 03:57:05 PM
But why take away Bass's charge shots at all? It would have been awesome if he had at least have the attacks from Mega Man 8 or Mega Man 7.



Offline Blackhook

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Reply #157 on: September 24, 2009, 03:58:15 PM
Why is his body bigger than in 8 but his wings in hyper form are smaller?


Offline Keno

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Reply #158 on: September 24, 2009, 08:58:14 PM
But why take away Bass's charge shots at all? It would have been awesome if he had at least have the attacks from Mega Man 8 or Mega Man 7.
Same reason everybody gets changed. Diversity. Or do you think Zero should always have had his buster?

Why is his body bigger than in 8 but his wings in hyper form are smaller?
Style. I love the Bass sprites in MM&B. I love how his feet flop especially.



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Reply #159 on: September 25, 2009, 01:21:49 AM
Uh, Bass is quite fine & easy.
I never said otherwise.  But people keep saying that Bass has it easy and Rock has jack, and that's not true, thus my post.

Same reason everybody gets changed. Diversity. Or do you think Zero should always have had his buster?
After X6, hell yes I do.

Having something doesn't necessarily mean focusing on it, nor does it mean you can't spin it a different way.  Bass's attacks are still buster attacks, after all, doesn't make him the same as Rock.

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Offline Soultrigger

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Reply #160 on: September 25, 2009, 09:50:44 AM
I apologized for diverting away from the R&F discussion, but anyways...

You'll probably be surprised to find out there's no boss by that name.
You know who I mean. >_> My point is is that there are better options out there than a rooster. This is all opinionated of course, so I don't need to hear any defense.

Zero's revival is completely warranted and Isoc solves more plotholes than any other character in the entire series.
I'm sure if X6 was initially intended, they wouldn't have killed Zero a second time only to revive him in the next installment. I'm well aware of the fact the Zero series fixed this.

Everyone assumes a connection between Wily and Isoc (and I admit, I do too). But they never explicitly explained his background in the game, which only causes confusion. Unless you can direct me to some official source clearly explaining Isoc, everything is still murky for me.


First of all, yes you can.
Second, Unarmored is not the game's default form, Falcon is.  Unarmored exists for the sheer challenge of it.  One which by your own admission you can't handle.

This is what I mean when I say that X6 makes you use your head.  I cannot turn around without running into somebody who thinks such-and-such a stage unarmored is impossible.  IT ISN'T.  No level whatsoever is.  The core level design of X6 (disregarding the Nightmare effects) is rather ingenious, and humbles many a so-called fan.  They [sonic slicer] and moan about how broken it allegedly is because they can't deal with the fact that they're not up to the task.  Try harder, and stop sucking.
His revival is no worse than X's.  Both were left for dead, both were repaired by their makers.  The only difference is that X's revival was shown on-screen in the same game he was killed, and Zero's wasn't.Which are?Sigma was killed 3 weeks ago and has not had time to properly recover.  What about that is difficult to understand?
Wow, your defense of X6 seems blinded by your bias. And stop trying to sound like an elitist, assuming everyone who's attempted X6 pussied out on it. I'm no speed-runner, and I certainly don't care for no-damage runs (sans Zero series), but that doesn't mean I suck at the game or don't know what I'm hell I'm talking about.

Yes, you can clear any X6 stage with unarmored X. <b>With parts</b>. Are you so bent on nitpicking my arguments that you're not realizing my point? Sorry I'm unclear, but my point is that X6 is lacking the polish most of the other games have in which you're not <b>required</b> to use missable/skippable items.
Does this make X6 a bad game? Fine, it makes X6 different from the rest. Sure, you need some creativity to clear the game. But is this exactly fair for players and fans who come into the game expecting it to be like the first 5 only to find they can't beat the second/third Gate stage as X without some form of air dash or "mobility" part? I know I was frustrated, going into the stage as <i>Shadow X</i> without the proper parts. At least in the first Gate stage, they were nice enough to put the threshold at the beginning of the stage. The truth is that, as X, you'll always need SOME form of upgrade to beat the Gate stages.

Bear in mind that X6 is one of the first games in the series that lets you skip a significant portion of the game. In X5, AFAIK you weren't required to have any upgrade to complete the game. Start the game as Zero? Skipped to the failed laser and shuttle cutscenes? You can still go through the Sigma Stages with X. Is it absurdly hard? Yes. But is it possible? Yes. No stage is impossible because you didn't have something beforehand.
As a rebuttal, you could say that developers SHOULD be allowed to require power ups (such as the first Gate stage). But can you really defend developers wasting the players time without any form of warning beforehand?

Indeed, Falcon Armor is considered the default in X6. But that still didn't change the fact that I was forced to game over myself and restart the stage completely. It's like in MM3 where you could get stuck in the Doc Robot stages if you were stupid enough to run out of Rush weapon energy [not including the P2 glitch]. Highly unlikely, but the fact that you CAN get stuck shows that the game was unrefined to some degree.



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Offline Zan

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Reply #161 on: September 25, 2009, 10:35:44 AM
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I'm sure if X6 was initially intended, they wouldn't have killed Zero a second time only to revive him in the next installment. I'm well aware of the fact the Zero series fixed this.

Everyone assumes a connection between Wily and Isoc (and I admit, I do too). But they never explicitly explained his background in the game, which only causes confusion. Unless you can direct me to some official source clearly explaining Isoc, everything is still murky for me.

Zero was always intended to be revived again, even if it was in the ZERO series instead of the X-series. Zero died in the very place Wily himself was omnipresent, the same place where Dr. Right took material form and saved X from a similar fate, the same place where Zero's body mysteriously vanished to leave nothing but the Z-saber behind.

Zero: In the short time I’ve been away, people think so much less of me they associate me with a toy like this…
X: …Zero? Zero, you’re alive?
Zero: [sighs] So are you, X, aren’t you?
To begin with, we’re not going to let the likes of Sigma do us in… am I right?
X: I searched… but I couldn’t find anything… no data response… no parts… so…
Zero: Sorry to cause you worry. I lay low until I was fully recovered from the damage.

Zero later revealed to Right, he asked who saved him and admitted that when he woke up he could. Zero's benefactor is a mystery to him.

Then Isoc goes about exclaiming he's "seen" Zero, and that Zero did not die from such a "trivial battle." Obsessed about Zero, he laughs to see him succeed where X failed, he goes into fits of rage to see X succeed at the same thing. That very Isoc raised his hand at Zero and told him that when it comes to him, he more than anyone... And with that, Zero is trapped within a force field that even protects him from external damage so that nobody could take advantage of Zero in this state. Isoc told him he can capture the likes of him at anytime.

How can Isoc, see him alive? How can Isoc stop him in his tracks? The only explanation is that Isoc himself had a hand in his revival. Likewise, we've already established from X5 that Wily is likely to take action against Zero's death.

Then we have the bloody sourcebooks listing Isoc as "a mystery". Perhaps likening to Wily (as with Sagesse.) Not to mention this guy having the exact same voice actor and mannerism of Wily from the exact same series. Even if you don't factually accept Isoc as Wily, it's clear that the two are related in the manner of Zero's revival.






Offline Keno

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Reply #162 on: September 25, 2009, 04:23:49 PM
I like when Isoc says he knows Zero inside and out.



Offline Align

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Reply #163 on: September 25, 2009, 06:36:23 PM
Zero was always intended to be revived again, even if it was in the ZERO series instead of the X-series. Zero died in the very place Wily himself was omnipresent, the same place where Dr. Right took material form and saved X from a similar fate, the same place where Zero's body mysteriously vanished to leave nothing but the Z-saber behind.
This could've gone any number of ways other than what X6 established though..



Offline Duke87

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Reply #164 on: September 26, 2009, 01:52:11 AM
Granted, some of the level design in X8 was a bit odd. Just being experimental, largely. Not all of those experiments produced good results, but none of those stages are really "annoying" in the way some stages from previous games were.

Indeed, some of the items are way too expensive. But then there's that glitch, so no problem.
Although flying Zero is a much more fun glitch to abuse. :D

You also get awesome music and voice acting that doesn't suck (for the most part, anyway)!

Though, the one thing that's unique to X8 that I really liked and doesn't get enough appreciation is the way the tag team system works. Characters can recover some damage when not in use. If your character dies, the other one comes in to take their place and, and the dead character can recover. And then there's the double attack.
Point being, the whole is very much greater than the sum of its parts. You know, as a team should be. That was hands down the game's best innovation.



X7... yeah, it had potential, but it was poorly implemented. They only give you the ability to move the camera in full 3D areas and an awful lot of the camera angles they give you in the semi-3D sections really don't work very well. Prime example: the second part of the Palace Road stage would be a hell of a lot easier if you could see where the [tornado fang] you're going. But instead, you're running towards the screen. -AC (as an aside, why isn't there a checkpoint before the boss fight in that stage?)
The other major annoyance was those attacks which knock you down. Recoil from strong attacks is one thing, that's to be expected. Being made to fall on your ass and lose total control of the character for several seconds so you have no chance to take advantage of your temporary invulnerability is another entirely. Especially when you consider how often that excessive recoil knocks you onto spikes and into pits.

The rescuable reploids feature had the same problem it did in X6 where if you let one die, they're gone, although in one way it's worse and in another it's better. It's worse in the sense that they die a hell of a lot more easily. It's better in the sense that even once they're dead, they're not completely gone forever because they'll be back in New Game+.
And on that note, that's another thing I really don't like: not being able to fully power everyone up in a single playthrough.
Still, that's an improvement over X5, X6, and Soul Eraser where fully powering up both characters on a single file is impossible no matter what. Which, besides being irksome (yeah, I'm a completionist, so sue me), breeds a tendency to just use one character, give them everything, and kick the other to the curb. I'd probably use Zero a lot more in X5 and X6 if giving him powerups didn't mean not giving them to X.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #165 on: September 26, 2009, 04:05:18 AM
I'm sure if X6 was initially intended, they wouldn't have killed Zero a second time only to revive him in the next installment. I'm well aware of the fact the Zero series fixed this.
I'll again reiterate that X is as dead as Zero in X5.  I'm not sure by what logic it is assumed that only X's creator would take measures to ensure his survival when we know as stated fact that Zero's creator was already involved in the virus-colony plot.

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Wow, your defense of X6 seems blinded by your bias.
A bias towards what?  What bias of mine does X6 serve?

Or are you simply saying that I'm defending X6 because I'm biased towards X6 itself?  Because besides being ignorant of my own concessions as to the game's flaws (Sentsuizan, Nightmare System, and my personal annoyance with garbage compressors), that's really just an argumentative way of saying that I have a personal opinion.

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I'm no speed-runner, and I certainly don't care for no-damage runs
You're preaching to the choir.  Who's making assumptions about who now?  Outside of Metroid games the only time I've ever come close to speed-running is MM9.  And if you think I give a damn about no-damage runs (outside of X8, for that nifty note in the Records screen), you know nothing about my play style.

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or don't know what I'm hell I'm talking about.
You don't if you claim that X6 is unclearable as unarmored X.  That is not an elitist attitude, it is fact.

If you're going to attach minimalist run strings to that statement, you need to say so.  And that's an argument I've already been over.  Long story short: Part of a minimalist run is determining what the minimum requirements actually are.  If you can't do that then you have no business attempting it.  The same as no reasonably intelligent individual should be conceding their default equipment in any game without first thinking about the consequences.  You speak as if the casual player will be attempting the game unarmored and there is really no reason they should be doing so.

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Sorry I'm unclear, but my point is that X6 is lacking the polish most of the other games have in which you're not <b>required</b> to use missable/skippable items.
I realize that full well.  Let me be equally clear.  No other game, sans X5, makes every item in the game skippable.  There are bound to be concessions, which even as you yourself stated encourage creativity.  Thus by your own admission we are talking about a differing style, which is not a flaw.  Neither is less valid than the other.

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But is this exactly fair for players and fans who come into the game expecting it to be like the first 5
5 was nothing like the first 4.  Not to mention I fail to see how unexpected cross-game differences are unfair.  Every title is to be judged on its own merits; MegaMan games are actually unusual in how similar they are.  That still doesn't mean that knowledge of previous titles is a free pass to future titles.

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I was forced to game over myself
...because your Select button was dead?

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Highly unlikely, but the fact that you CAN get stuck shows that the game was unrefined to some degree.
I believe we already tackled this with MM1 and MM8.  MM3's incidents are insignificant by comparison as they involve draining multiple weapon bars (you have to be out of both Jet and Coil to get stuck in Doc Robot's Gemini Man) for no particular reason, as they have nowhere near enough realistic use outside of those obstacles to expect such.

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Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #166 on: September 26, 2009, 04:09:22 AM
And 4 and 5 were nothing like each other or X6.

1-3 are comparable to each other, though, and far superior.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #167 on: September 26, 2009, 04:15:25 AM
I think 4 is even comparable to 1-3, barring the inclusion of a close-range character.  Up until that point it was still 8 weapons, 8 Life Ups, 4 Tanks, and a single armor, the end.  At X5 they started some major (poorly executed) expansions to the formula in regards to what kind of arsenal you're gathering.  Every game since has had its own take on those expansions.  But outside of different visuals and physics, the general build of X4 is very much in line with the SNES titles.  Arguably you could even consider it a more conservative title than X3 in terms of how close it stays to the core series formula.

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Offline Flame

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Reply #168 on: September 26, 2009, 04:22:58 AM
X4 was made in the same style, so to speak, as X1-3. it was the same style. X5 then expanded the universe.

though to correct you, the main difference was that there were only 2 sub tanks, to make room for the third one, which was the newly introduced Weapon subtank.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


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Reply #169 on: September 26, 2009, 04:31:48 AM
I said 4 tanks, didn't specify what type.

And X4 actually does have 4.  2 Energy, 1 Weapon, 1 EX (the doohicky that lets you start with 4 lives instead of 2).

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Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #170 on: September 26, 2009, 04:32:36 AM
I think 4 is even comparable to 1-3, barring the inclusion of a close-range character.  Up until that point it was still 8 weapons, 8 Life Ups, 4 Tanks, and a single armor, the end.  At X5 they started some major (poorly executed) expansions to the formula in regards to what kind of arsenal you're gathering.  Every game since has had its own take on those expansions.  But outside of different visuals and physics, the general build of X4 is very much in line with the SNES titles.  Arguably you could even consider it a more conservative title than X3 in terms of how close it stays to the core series formula.

I'll take X5's arsenal over X2's, anyday.

And, like MM7,  X4 messed with X's size-to-stage and enemy attack size, not to mention being more open-bottom and 'winding' (see: Frost Walrus' stage).



Offline Flame

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Reply #171 on: September 26, 2009, 04:44:22 AM
Frost Walrus' stage was great.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #172 on: September 26, 2009, 04:57:47 AM
X4 was made in the same style, so to speak, as X1-3. it was the same style. X5 then expanded the universe.
Is "expanded the universe" the new term for "jumped the shark"?



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Reply #173 on: September 26, 2009, 05:01:44 AM
It's a neutral term, Bag, could be good or bad.  Most associate a bad expansion with jumping the shark, yeah.

X5 wasn't wrong to expand the formula, but it implemented those expansions horribly.  X6, Xtreme2, and X8 did an undeniably better job.  I'd dare say that even X7 did, it just failed in the physics and level design departments.

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Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #174 on: September 26, 2009, 05:11:09 AM
Frost Walrus' stage was great.

That top part at the beginning is Chill Penguin-fun.

That part after the EX Tank is annoyingly twisty-turvy.