When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

CyberXIII · 38154

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gauntlet101010

  • A-Class Hunter
  • *
    • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
    • The Mechanical Maniacs
Reply #125 on: November 17, 2009, 07:29:14 PM
While it's true that classic leads to X, I just don't see that as entirely relevant to the point at hand.

MM9 is more relevant to the point.  I don't know why those robots would do that.  You might be right; that it's a foreshadowing to X.  Are you using it as a proof that the second law exists as Asimov envisioned?  Or just that the theme becoems darker as time goes on?


Offline Flame

  • The obsessive
  • RPM Soldier
  • ****
    • Posts: 16013
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Reply #126 on: November 17, 2009, 08:43:26 PM
Maybe a bit of both. :P

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Zan

  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 2040
    • Gender: Male
  • Unpleasable Unhelpful Utopian Totalitarian
    • View Profile
Reply #127 on: November 17, 2009, 10:00:15 PM
It actually is a bit of both. Robot free will is at odds with a bias toward human obedience. In a way, this certainly confirms each of the Asimov laws as having some value within the robots' mindset. After all, these robots wish to die when the humans tell them to and these robots wish to live solely to be useful to humans. There is something that tells them to behave in this manner that prefers human life over robotic life.

Whilst I can't speak for the original Tetsuwan Atom, such a concept is true in the serious setting of Pluto. Robot Law, section 13... "No robot will harm or kill a human." Dr. Ochanomizu explained that the Robot Laws are not simply a legal law, it is also true that all robots are programmed with safeguards to ensure they operate within the law. Robots murdering humans is an incredibly rare occurrence, and it is a common place belief that for a robot to commit such an act, it must be defected.

Certainly, in Rockman as well, every action is taken to ensure the reliability of robots in relation to the rules of robotics. Even with the factor of free will; the law must be obeyed.



Offline Gauntlet101010

  • A-Class Hunter
  • *
    • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
    • The Mechanical Maniacs
Reply #128 on: November 17, 2009, 10:24:00 PM
The classic robots might be programmed with deference to laws (as in "law and order"), but it really seems to be Astroboy inclined in the way it seems to work.  Asimov's influence seems limited to quoting his first law.  But his influence is there, so it'd be right to say it's sort of a mix. 

But MUCH more Astroboy than Asimov.  Astroboy had robots being thrown away as well.  Although I have to admit that I'n no expert in Astroboy.


Offline Flame

  • The obsessive
  • RPM Soldier
  • ****
    • Posts: 16013
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Reply #129 on: November 18, 2009, 02:40:35 AM
If Im right, I think what Zan is trying to say, is that the classic series is Astro boy laws based, but must eventually evolve into Asimov type laws for the X series.
or something to that regard.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Gauntlet101010

  • A-Class Hunter
  • *
    • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
    • The Mechanical Maniacs
Reply #130 on: November 18, 2009, 04:56:09 AM
IS that what he's trying to say?

If so, I don't think I agree with that statement.  But I don't see any reason in arguing it.


Offline Zan

  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 2040
    • Gender: Male
  • Unpleasable Unhelpful Utopian Totalitarian
    • View Profile
Reply #131 on: November 18, 2009, 02:24:35 PM
What I said in regards to the classic to X transition is that because of the Dr. Wily incidents there are dominant feelings from the robotic community and the world itself that direct fear toward the notion of human-like machines. Instead of being mankind's friends, they have become mankind's enemies and therefor a robot such as X, who represents the final step in robot evolution, becomes something to be feared.

In the late 21st century, and early 22nd century, we see a considerable decline in human-like robots as a result of this. We also see the humans themselves starting to use robots as mere tools, not just for industrialization, but for war. The dominant form of robots has become the "Mechaniroids".

In the time period in which X was finally uncovered, the aforementioned strong feelings of fear have finally been put to rest by humanity. The discovery of X to all other robots became something simply incomparable. The creation of the Repliroids stands in sharp contrast with the simplistic Mechaniroids which the people are most familiar with.



Offline Gauntlet101010

  • A-Class Hunter
  • *
    • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
    • The Mechanical Maniacs
Reply #132 on: November 18, 2009, 05:21:24 PM
You just might be right, I suppose.  Although we recieve preacious little information about what the world around MM thinks, you might be right in your supposition. 

Um ... I don't think that has any bearing on the Astroboy point.  I think bringing up Astroboy was valid to the discussion and, probably, on the right track in terms of classic series robots and any "robot laws" that exist. 

But the lighthearted classic series does become the X series, you're right about that.


Offline Align

  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 3432
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Natural Selection, my FPS of choice
Reply #133 on: November 18, 2009, 09:00:16 PM
Nope, because of its length, people haven't really tried to translate it sentence by sentence. I've been told the basic gist of it, though.

Allouette's basically on a quest to find names for the Baby Elves. She talks to everyone around the base about it. -Andrew talks about his past as a teacher, and the differences between humans and Repliroids. Repliroid children are apparently much better in school than human children, but Repliroids unlike humans have notable issues with things like singing; they would only repeat the song like a record player.
That actually sounds really interesting. I wish they'd touch upon such things more. And translate them... makes the MM world seem more believable.

Quote
-Rouge and Joan bring up nerdy facts from centuries ago. They tried naming the Baby Elves after popular 21th century software, in particular Rockman.exe3 and 4's subtitles. Somewhere along the line Crime and Punishment is mentioned too.
20XX software? Red Sun/Blue Moon?

Quote
-Zero is being mean as usual, and Ciel saves the day by coming up with their known names, derived from the French words for "to pray" and "to create".
Cold or intentionally mean?



Offline Zan

  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 2040
    • Gender: Male
  • Unpleasable Unhelpful Utopian Totalitarian
    • View Profile
Reply #134 on: November 18, 2009, 09:39:54 PM
Quote
20XX software? Red Sun/Blue Moon?

Red Sun/Blue Moon, as the Baby Elf names, but also the EXE3 version names. I believe they also implicated a certain company that made the games. They're saying Capcom made and released Rockman.exe games in the 21st century.

Quote
Cold or intentionally mean?


Zero being Zero.

Quote
I think bringing up Astroboy was valid to the discussion and, probably, on the right track in terms of classic series robots and any "robot laws" that exist.

Thing is, even in Astroboy, there is a certain aspect of their programming that forces upon them such concepts as the rules of robotics.

To reiterate the example from Pluto, robot law section 13, a robot must not harm or kill a human; robots are programmed to ensure they follow the law. Only a defect is believed to have the ability to break the law.

To link that to the 1980 Astroboy; it's clearly something special when a robot is equipped with "Heart" or the "Omega Factor". Atlas, who is equipped with the Omega Factor, being the supposed one robot that could break the law.



Offline Gauntlet101010

  • A-Class Hunter
  • *
    • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
    • The Mechanical Maniacs
Reply #135 on: November 19, 2009, 12:49:33 AM
Quote
Thing is, even in Astroboy, there is a certain aspect of their programminh that forces upon them such concepts as the rules of robotics.

To reiterate the example from Pluto, robot law section 13, a robot must not harm or kill a human; robots are programmed to ensure they follow the law. Only a defect is believed to have the ability to break the law.

To link that to the 1980 Astroboy; it's clearly something special when a robot is equipped with "Heart" or the "Omega Factor". Atlas, who is equipped with the Omega Factor, being the supposed one robot that could break the law.

Someone more in tune with Astroboy can debate with you on exactly how relevant it is within the classic series MM.   The details on that are besides the point.  Still, maybe Marshmellow can give his own thoughts on it. 

However, with my familiarity with Astroboy, Asimov, and MM, I can say that Astroboy is definately the closest to classic series MM while Asimov is a far cry.  Beyond that, I'm not willing to venture. 


Offline Blaze Yeager

  • The Loremaster
  • SA-Class Hunter
  • *
    • Posts: 737
    • Gender: Male
  • "To win is to lose, to lose is to win."
    • View Profile
    • Suikatei Blog
Reply #136 on: November 19, 2009, 12:59:33 AM
Wily,Jimminy.....i wish i COULD Kill him in my fangame*

*(Technally,Wily is reaveled in The JeffreyFUTURE Series to be Dead*)
*See Megaman Timeline on MMKB.

Into Darkness, into the Abyss. Where only anathema exists.
| https://twitter.com/BlazeMcPhearson |


Offline kuja killer

  • B-Class Hunter
  • *
    • Posts: 263
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Reply #137 on: November 20, 2009, 12:24:45 AM
Hmm i got a random question in my head i just felt like asking.

Would it be considered "okay" if like a storyline for a megaman romhack actually would involve killing wily ? i mean literally for reals ... no exceptions. Just a one-time-only deal that megaman would do even though it obviously would break the rules. So that wily truly would not be able to cause anymore harm/damage/destruction/etc ever again for all time.

Or would that be "BAD" storyline ??



Offline Align

  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 3432
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Natural Selection, my FPS of choice
Reply #138 on: November 20, 2009, 12:54:06 AM
It wouldn't fit with the rest, but whether it would be bad depends entirely on the execution (DO HO HO).



Offline Zan

  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 2040
    • Gender: Male
  • Unpleasable Unhelpful Utopian Totalitarian
    • View Profile
Reply #139 on: November 20, 2009, 02:47:50 AM
I think that'd be a bit tasteless and disrespectful toward the nature of the classic series.



Offline kuja killer

  • B-Class Hunter
  • *
    • Posts: 263
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Reply #140 on: November 20, 2009, 03:27:57 AM
Ah i see okay that'd make sense then zan.



Offline marshmallow man

  • Robot Master
  • *
    • Posts: 135
    • View Profile
Reply #141 on: November 24, 2009, 12:49:07 AM
Tezuka had something around 10 or more laws (I think he rewrote a few of them in the course of the stories) by the end of Astro Boy, I saw a web site somewhere that listed them all in Japanese, I'll track it down later. I remember that Wily broke quite a few of them throughout the classic series.

In Tezuka's world, robots are often considered morally superior to humans by their very nature. That most robots will take abuses from humans shows their higher capacity for tolerance and faith that the good nature of the human heart eventually prevails. However, all they need it so be convinced, through personal experience or logic, of the intolerable evils of mankind to turn themselves on humanity. The old manga is full of such cases of robots that do just that, some human was awful or violent and so the robot realizes their unworthiness to be assisted. Robots with kokoro (heart or emotions) become increasingly common throughout the stories, and these robots need only to be pushed to learn hatred. Even the Pluto manga, which certainly took its own liberties with many aspects of Tezuka's vision, demonstrated consistently that there was essentially no malfunction or defect in any of the (spoilers?) 5 or so robots that put humans to death throughout that manga. It remained a matter of the robots' own will, own sense of righteousness, own feelings and desires.



Offline Shamalama

  • Net Navi
  • *
    • Posts: 43
    • Gender: Female
  • long long distance, GO AWAY!
    • View Profile
Reply #142 on: December 27, 2009, 10:18:27 PM
God bless osamu tezuka... eventually willy is a human and he's an old man so hes going to die soon...maybe...rockman doesnt have to kill him... i think

Still a Rockman fan!