Obligatory Pokemon Diamond/Pearl/Platinum thread

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Offline Pringer X

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Reply #75 on: November 14, 2008, 05:26:56 AM
This is probably a stupid question, but:

Is there anyway that Pokemon could not be this complicated number-nerds' circlejerk? Could we eliminate all these hidden stats and natures and so forth?

That's as unlikely as MarioKart going back to basics, though.

Nope. Ever since the 3rd gen it's been like this. (2nd didn't have natures and had a completely different system of things) It DOES get tiring though, since, in order to create your perfect team for you, you have to go and beat the snot out of the same damn critters a hundred freaking times. After training just 4 of the members, you seriously start losing interest and it's only a matter of if you care enough that drives you on.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #76 on: November 14, 2008, 05:33:18 AM
That's EVs, they were actually the same ever since 1st gen.  But since internet battling wasn't in full swing, nobody really cared, as EV-training was in no way necessary to beat Stadium.

IVs were redone between 2nd and 3rd gen.  In 2nd gen they were 0-15, in 3rd they're 0-31.  In 2nd gen, it wasn't as big a deal as getting a bad one, since it's a 15 point loss versus a 31 point loss.  That in addition to the fact that 3rd gen introduced Natures.  So, yeah, Hidden Power was a lot more practical in 2nd gen.

How many natures are there? Take that and divide by 100, and that's your chances of getting one normally. To make one 50% over ALL the others is a HUGE benefit, since that logically means that 1 of 2 eggs will have the right nature. You simply go from there. (If you also read my post correctly, I said no eggs anywhere. I already know that when one shows up it's set, it's a matter of resetting when it ISN'T there)
Natures you can accept divided by total Natures (25).  In most cases we're probably looking at 3 that'll work, which comes to 12% normally.  4% for every acceptable Nature.

I already stated in my post, as fact, that Everstone breeding is 50/50.  When did I ever say that wasn't worthwhile?  50%, or rather 56% if you account for random winning over in spite of Everstone failure, is every bit worth it.  I merely stated it's not the guaranteed solution you implied.

Again, resetting when the egg isn't there does nothing speed-wise, therefore not helping in ease of training.  It only saves PC storage space.  I don't know why you brought it up.

Quote
No one ever said it was easy to get a particular Hidden Power. Granted there's a lot of work to put in there, it doesn't mean that it's impossible. It's like accusing the top positioned players for cheating because it takes an insane amount of work to get that high. Just because it's difficult as all hell doesn't mean it isn't possible. Just find out what IVs are need in what areas to get a particular type and power (which you can do with Shoddy just by going to editing a team, setting the type and power, and just record the results). Once that's done, just breed, find out the IVs, and if they match, hooray (or just use an IV Calculator that already tells you what type it is).

It's like searching for buried treasure. The amount of effort you can put in can be quite exhausting, but once you find it, it makes it all the more worthwhile. That's why Hidden Power is on Pokemon that have very few offensive types to use, with the few exceptions being ones to just let it be a Mixed Sweeper such as Infernape.
If you cannot top 300-to-1 odds, your likelihood with an imperfect setup being exponentially more abysmal, then it's not practical.  Of course it's rewarding, I never questioned that.  But it's like winning the in-game Master Ball lottery.  You cannot depend on it.

Since you brought up resetting for a Legend, I'll tackle that one as well (It's also useful for considering how long it'll take you to capture ideal parents for the breeding setup).  Let's say we're Master Balling Colosseum's Raikou for the sake of an Ice Type Hidden Power, and you don't care whether it's Attack, Defense, or Special Defense that takes the Nature hit.

Acceptable Nature: 3/25
Acceptable Special Attack IV: 3/32
Acceptable Speed IV: 3/32
Acceptable Special Defense IV (you WILL NOT break 50 strength without it): 16/32 = 1/2
At least 2 of the 3 remaining IVs are even (all three may be required depending on Special Defense IV): 4/8 = 1/2
Throw them all together:  Approximately 1 in 3,792

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Offline Pringer X

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Reply #77 on: November 14, 2008, 05:56:07 AM
Again, resetting when the egg isn't there does nothing speed-wise, therefore not helping in ease of training.  It only saves PC storage space.  I don't know why you brought it up.

Because you keep bringing up the storage space :P

If you cannot top 300-to-1 odds, your likelihood with an imperfect setup being exponentially more abysmal, then it's not practical.  Of course it's rewarding, I never questioned that.  But it's like winning the in-game Master Ball lottery.  You cannot depend on it.

Since you brought up resetting for a Legend, I'll tackle that one as well (It's also useful for considering how long it'll take you to capture ideal parents for the breeding setup).  Let's say we're Master Balling Colosseum's Raikou for the sake of an Ice Type Hidden Power, and you don't care whether it's Attack, Defense, or Special Defense that takes the Nature hit.

Acceptable Nature: 3/25
Acceptable Special Attack IV: 3/32
Acceptable Speed IV: 3/32
Acceptable Special Defense IV (you WILL NOT top 50 strength without it): 8/32 = 1/4

Throw them all together:  Approximately 1 in 3,792

That's a lot of resets.  Happy hunting.

The odds of getting a shiny are 1 in 8,192 battles. Sounds like an easier job to get a particular Hidden Power than it is a Shiny. A lot of people also happen to have a shiny. Granted, the GC games aren't exactly the BEST place to get Pokemon (if you hack the key items, Lugia and Ho-oh become available, as well as Mew and Deoxys. Celebii and Jirachi are about the only ones that are best gotten from the bonus discs), it still isn't too difficult. Though, there are other games that do have them. Simply save before talking to Oak in Fire Red or Leaf Green to bring out the beasts, do the hunt, and get the nature and IVs set (and in the case of Entei, it doesn't matter since it's a physical user anyway, and Suicune serves a different purpose. Raikou would be the ONLY one that needs a particular IV set). Get the right set, save, and send it over.



Offline Tickle Buffalo

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Reply #78 on: November 14, 2008, 05:57:49 AM
Anyone know a good Grass Special Sweeper I can use?  I have to re Ev-train almost all my pokemon because I wasn't EVing them correctly and I don't want another Venusaur because the only Special Attacks I could teach it was Energy Ball, Sludge Bomb and Secret Power.

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Offline Hypershell

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Reply #79 on: November 14, 2008, 05:58:45 AM
Sky Shaymin is going to be so evil...

Because you keep bringing up the storage space :P
Only for a sense of perspective, not as a limitation, you misread my posts.  Storage space is never a concern, the Release option is always there.

Quote
The odds of getting a shiny are 1 in 8,192 battles. Sounds like an easier job to get a particular Hidden Power than it is a Shiny. A lot of people also happen to have a shiny. Granted, the GC games aren't exactly the BEST place to get Pokemon (if you hack the key items, Lugia and Ho-oh become available, as well as Mew and Deoxys. Celebii and Jirachi are about the only ones that are best gotten from the bonus discs), it still isn't too difficult. Though, there are other games that do have them. Simply save before talking to Oak in Fire Red or Leaf Green to bring out the beasts, do the hunt, and get the nature and IVs set (and in the case of Entei, it doesn't matter since it's a physical user anyway, and Suicune serves a different purpose. Raikou would be the ONLY one that needs a particular IV set). Get the right set, save, and send it over.
A lot of people go through their entire game never finding a Shiny.  I've gone through four and a half games and never found a Shiny (Sapphire, two Fire Red playthroughs, Diamond, and halfway through Emerald; this is not including GCN games, I'm not sure if Shinys appear there or not, or GBC games, because I don't know if odds were different back then).  Also bear in mind, a Shiny can be any species, we're looking for one.  People who hunt Shinys do so through chaining, not through random encounters.

Stastically speaking, if you encounter three Pokemon of any species whose Nature/IVs fit the above description, you'll have encountered one Shiny along the way.

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Offline Pringer X

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Reply #80 on: November 14, 2008, 06:13:24 AM
A lot of people go through their entire game never finding a Shiny.  I've gone through four and a half games and never found a Shiny (Sapphire, two Fire Red playthroughs, Diamond, and halfway through Emerald; this is not including GCN games, I'm not sure if Shinys appear there or not, or GBC games, because I don't know if odds were different back then).  Also bear in mind, a Shiny can be any species, we're looking for one.  People who hunt Shinys do so through chaining, not through random encounters.

Stastically speaking, if you encounter three Pokemon of any species whose Nature/IVs fit the above description, you'll have encountered one Shiny along the way.

The point is, it's not impossible, and it's not cheating. I'm not trying to change your mind and make you hump Hidden Power like a love doll, I'm just saying that calling someone who did the work and effort to get a Hidden Power Ice on their Raikou or Infernape isn't a cheater and not some dick move they did.



Offline STM

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Reply #81 on: November 14, 2008, 06:18:57 AM
Red Gyarados aside, I've only ever seen one shiny pokemon in the wild...

A shiny Spinda. You know... the one that infests that one ash-filled route in RSE? Yeah...



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #82 on: November 14, 2008, 06:28:58 AM
One more than I've seen.  Again, aside from Red Gyarados, I played through both Silver and Crystal in addition to the above-mentioned.

The point is, it's not impossible, and it's not cheating. I'm not trying to change your mind and make you hump Hidden Power like a love doll, I'm just saying that calling someone who did the work and effort to get a Hidden Power Ice on their Raikou or Infernape isn't a cheater and not some dick move they did.
It is not impossible, my point this entire time has been probability, and I apologize for generalizing in my earlier posts.  But it is EXTREMELY unlikely.  And I don't think you realize how ridiculously common Hidden Power is in competitive communities, and that's solely because they were all "raised" on NetBattle.  Go into any competitive guide such as Serebii's Pokemon of the Week, and barring an "uber" TM pool, virtually every Pokemon with a viable Special Attack gets a mention of Hidden Power, often times with no given alternative.

On a non-breedable Pokemon it's especially bad, offering them as an example is unrealistic.  Raikou could DEFINITELY use it, there's no argument there, but who's going to sit through 3,000+ resets?  Having done a lot of reset-Mewtwo capturing I've seen how poor IVs can bite someone in the rear even with the supposedly ideal Nature.  Nature and Type you might get with a lot of dedication, but it ignores the Hidden Power strength and IV totals.  Both are critical if you're going to this much trouble to raise a Pokemon in the first place.  A 30-50 strength Hidden Power won't be worth much.

EDITS: I figured a different approach to determine the odds of a favorable Pokemon would be to just look at each final characteristic individually and multiply their odds together, rather than trying to work the entire IV formula at once.  Hopefully it'll be a little more accurate this way.  I figured how Breeding factors in to IV odds in this approach and offered examples.  Once again, Spoiler tag to conserve space:

[spoiler]Here's what I came up with:

Nature * HP Type * HP Power * Speed IV * Special Attack IV * Ability

Nature = Add 1/25 for each acceptable Nature
If Everstone breeding, [25 + (1 per acceptable Nature)]/50

HP Type = Add 1/16 for each acceptable Type

HP Power = 1 for 30 (minimum) or above.  3/4 for 40 or above.  1/2 for 50 or above.  1/4 for 60 and above.  1/40 for 70 (maximum).

Speed IV & Special Attack IV = Chance of favorable IV.  There are a total of 32 possible values (0-31), so take values that work divided by values that don't work.  If you want to figure this the "quick and dirty" way, any value 21 and above is approximately 1/3.
If breeding, [(1 per parent with favorable IV)/4] + [(Chance of favorable IV when not breeding) / 2]

Ability = 1/2 if Pokemon has 2 Abilities and you want a specific one.  1 if you don't care or the Pokemon has only one Ability.

Multiply all fractions together (ignore 1's since multiplying by 1 does nothing) to get your odds of obtaining the Pokemon you want.

Examples:
Wild Pokemon, 1 stat gain w/ any of 3 stat losses (3 Natures), 1 HP Type, HP Power > 60, Speed and Special Attack IVs > 21, Ability irrelevant
= 3/25 * 1/16 * 1/4 * 1/3 * 1/3 * 1
= 3/14400
= 1/4800

Everstone breeding, parents have all favorable Speed/Special Attack IVs, 1 stat gain w/ any of 3 stat losses (3 Natures), 1 HP Type, HP Power > 60, Speed and Special Attack IVs > 21, Ability irrelevant
= 28/50 * 1/16 * 1/4 * {[2/4] + [(1/3)/2]} * {[2/4] + [(1/3)/2]} * 1
= 28/50 * 1/16 * 1/4 * {[3/6] + [1/6]} * {[3/6] + [1/6]} * 1
= 28/50 * 1/16 * 1/4 * 4/6 * 4/6 * 1
= 14/25 * 1/16 * 1/4 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1
= 56/14400
~= 1/257

This formula reflects overall odds of each aspect individually, but there may be some room for error due to how a successful IV breed affects the Hidden Power formula, which can either hurt you or help you.  Be weary of how IVs you are attempting to breed fit into the Hidden Power formulas.  For instance, if you are trying to breed a strong Special Attack IV, but it's even and not odd, your Hidden Power Type value cannot be above 11, meaning you cannot have a Psychic, Ice, Dragon, or Dark Hidden Power if that IV is successfully passed to the new Pokemon.

This actually brings the Hidden Power Type odds down to 1/12 if you're looking for one outside of those four (and of course zero if you weren't).  But that applies only on a successful breed to the Special Attack IV, which is 1/4 of the time for each parent.  So, yeah, it can get very confusing.

Remember, at the end of the day, a bred Pokemon ALWAYS inherits 3 IVs from its parents.  1 from mom, 1 from dad, 1 at random.  The other three are always generated from scratch.  Which 3 are inherited and which 3 are from scratch are impossible to control, just gotta keep hatching until you get it.[/spoiler]

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Offline Dr. Wily II

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Reply #83 on: November 14, 2008, 01:16:22 PM
I must be very lucky when it comes to encountering shiny Pokemon then...
5 in my Emerald, 1 in FR, 1 in LG, and 4 in Pearl...


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Offline Tickle Buffalo

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Reply #84 on: November 14, 2008, 01:23:57 PM
Any of them actually good, though? Docile Starly, ugh.



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Reply #85 on: November 14, 2008, 02:04:46 PM
Let me boot them up and see... (All of them caught in the wild)
Emerald - Golbat (Hardy), Abra (Hardy), Slugma (Brave), Whismur (Gentle), Swablu (Hardy)
FireRed - Exeggcute (Quiet)
LeafGreen - NidoranF (Lax)
Pearl - NidoranM (Timid), Starly (Sassy), BIDOOF (BRAVE), Buizel (Lax)

I encountered another shiny Slugma after I caught the first one in Emerald, so I didn't catch it. -_-
I also encountered a shiny Graveler in Pearl, he Selfdestruct-ed in my face. -_-


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Offline Tickle Buffalo

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Reply #86 on: November 14, 2008, 02:33:58 PM
Oh, well, I'm not alone in having hopeless pokemon then. On the plus side, shiny Bidoof, yeeeeeeeeeeeah.


Also, everyone, should I go black sludge or leftovers on my Tentacruel? Black sludge screws over anyone who steals it, but it'll screw me over if they trick it back onto one of my other guys. I'm torn. Thoughts?



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Reply #87 on: November 14, 2008, 02:40:51 PM
Hmm...
That is if they remember to Trick it back to your non-poison Pokemon.
Then again, Trick isn't a commonly played move, I think.
I say stick with Black Sludge.


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Offline Tickle Buffalo

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Reply #88 on: November 14, 2008, 03:40:17 PM
Yeah, maybe. Relying on other people making mistakes probably isn't a great strategy though.

Of course, I already have plenty of leftovers, and black sludge would require me hunting down Croagunks or whatever to steal it off them. Possibly I should just be lazy as hell.



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Reply #89 on: November 14, 2008, 03:43:55 PM
True...
With this new relevation... Leftovers. >.>;


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Offline Tickle Buffalo

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Reply #90 on: November 14, 2008, 03:47:04 PM
Yeah I never really liked effort anyway.



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Reply #91 on: November 14, 2008, 05:41:31 PM
The first shiny I ever got was a Drowzee in Gold. And I still have my old Gold version! Though I can't remember what its stats were.


Plus I have to go buy another Pearl version since my "ex-best friend" stole it along with my little brother's DS and charger. I want to frikin' kill him. >_<


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Reply #92 on: November 14, 2008, 06:09:56 PM
New forms of Rotom? Who knew? 8D


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Offline Pringer X

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Reply #93 on: November 14, 2008, 06:18:38 PM
And I don't think you realize how ridiculously common Hidden Power is in competitive communities, and that's solely because they were all "raised" on NetBattle.  Go into any competitive guide such as Serebii's Pokemon of the Week, and barring an "uber" TM pool, virtually every Pokemon with a viable Special Attack gets a mention of Hidden Power, often times with no given alternative.

On a non-breedable Pokemon it's especially bad, offering them as an example is unrealistic.  Raikou could DEFINITELY use it, there's no argument there, but who's going to sit through 3,000+ resets?  Having done a lot of reset-Mewtwo capturing I've seen how poor IVs can bite someone in the rear even with the supposedly ideal Nature.  Nature and Type you might get with a lot of dedication, but it ignores the Hidden Power strength and IV totals.  Both are critical if you're going to this much trouble to raise a Pokemon in the first place.  A 30-50 strength Hidden Power won't be worth much.

NetBattle and Shoddy are there to get your dream team up and running and not have to spend 50+hours of breeding and raising, and instead spend 5+ minutes making your team. There's also nothing much you can do about a Pokemon on Shoddy or NetBattle since it only stays online. As for actual life training, there are people who are damned and determined to go to the lengths to get their perfect nature, perfect ability, and perfect Hidden Power Pokemon. Look at the people who win championships at Brawl and what they've had to learn; they have to deal with knowing the frame rate and all of that stuff. There are people who are going to go through that effort in order to obtain their goal. For some Pokemon, Hidden Power is ABSOLUTELY needed; Raikou only has three different types that it can use compared to, oh say, Infernape. For others, it let's them cover more types.

What exactly is your point though? You seem to be running around and not be clear as to what you're trying to say.



Offline Tickle Buffalo

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Reply #94 on: November 14, 2008, 06:41:29 PM
I think the point is that you shouldn't really recommend anyone who isn't insanely dedicated use HP, because it's way way way way way too much of a pain to get a good one.


S'a pretty reasonable point, really.



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Reply #95 on: November 14, 2008, 06:43:38 PM
Yeah, HP is just not worth all the effort of that.
Stick with more reliable moves.

New forms of Rotom? Who knew? 8D
THE MORE YOU KNOW~ 8D


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Offline Hypershell

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Reply #96 on: November 19, 2008, 07:01:29 PM
Well, that and I'm pretty sure I was starting to bore the other readers. :P

But yeah, Hidden Power should never be suggested in a move set without a possible alternative.  ESPECIALLY not for a legend, very few players are willing to go into four digits on their number of likely system resets.

EDITS 11/19/2008:
Well, I think my revised team is now in its final form.  Rotom, Lapras, Dragonite, Palkia, Blissey, and Steelix.  Anyone who wants to challenge, drop me a line, I could use some good opponents.

Been visiting Battle Revolution again.  Raised a baby team to crush Sunnyshore, and reminded myself why I raaaage at Sunset.  And, call me a heartless bastard, but I went into Neon Colosseum (the roulette one) with a Lava Plume Heatran and a punch of fire-weak throwaways.  Got all six costumes, so now it's time to get back on Stargazer's Master Sets.

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Reply #97 on: November 19, 2008, 10:53:44 PM
I just finished training my new guys, so I'd be up for a battle. I've probably got several glaring weaknesses, so you can destroy me and then point out how bad I am. It'll be great.



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Reply #98 on: November 19, 2008, 11:47:43 PM
This time I have made a perfect Lv50-Lv71 team without any major weakness. (The old one had a major Ice weakness, this time, I can last a battle longer)

Pokemon are: Gallade(Lv50, Male, Nickname is ROBIN), Machamp (Lv52, Male, Nickname is MAGU), Scizor (Lv53, Male, Nickname is SCYGU), Lucario (Lv55, Male, Nickname is RIGU), Staraptor (Lv63, Male, Nickname is STARLU), and Torterra (Lv71, Male, Starter, Nickname is TUTUNGU)

Workshop/DA/YT/Photobucket なにかんがえてるの!?
So its about ass now huh? EVEN THE ASS HAS 'EXCEEDED'!

One mention of LEGENDS and everyone goes batshit.  :\

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Reply #99 on: November 20, 2008, 12:10:30 AM
Better watch out for Infernape.