Topic: What makes and kills replay value for you?

[Fxeni]

I'm sorry, but I have to throw in my two cents here. For example, MM2 had plenty of instances of memorization ingrained in it. Hell, if you didn't know how to beat one of the bosses, or you miss with even one shot of the CLUSHBOMB, you have to start the whole level over, more often than not having to let yourself get killed repeatedly since you can't do anything for the remainder of your lives. I'm sorry, but MM9 didn't really have anything quite as bad as that.

[Karai]

Also in shmups memorization is very important (if not the most important). One wrong move, and BLAM!, there goes your high-score.

[Da Dood]

There's nothing wrong with memorization, and cheap deaths don't necessarily destroy balance. Failing is a natural part of any game's learning curve as far as I'm aware. The problem is when the game doesn't allow you to adapt to what just killed you. Why would people ever play Contra if it's all memorization and cheap deaths? People keep trying because they learn and advance a little bit every time, and it feels rewarding because memory is by definition a skill.

In MM9 you shouldn't ever have a problem with grabbers or Splash Woman's spikes after that one recon trip, same way you shouldn't ever complain about Quick Man's lasers once you find out about Time Stopper. If we had to start the game over that would be a different story, but you always respawn two rooms before and with proper knowledge.

This happens in every single decent videogame you can think of. You won't be an expert in Street Fighter II on your first play. You have to memorize moves, study your favorite character's speed and animation, pay close attention to how your opponents will fight and learn how to counter each of their moves. You will fail a whole lot in the process. SFII is a landmark of game balance regardless of that. In Devil May Cry you do need fast fingers, but more than anything you need that brain database to identify audio and visual attack cues.

Personally I think Mega Man relies very heavily on memorization since day 1, it's not exclusive to MM9 or any other installment.

[HyperSonicEXE]

Oh yeah, no question.

But then, Mega Man doesn't die. Ever. He has come close to it in endings, but that's it. As far as gameplay goes, he doesn't. So then, the player shouldn't either.

But even if you don't follow that school of logic and accept that the character is just that good whereas you're not expected to be as such, then there's still the matter of it killing the fun. Quick Man's lasers. You would have to know that layout in order to survive. Now considering they're "security lasers", it makes sense (wait, why don't we have those deadly things IRL?), but it's just further frustration to the player. And it's not a matter of having one screen come up quickly and then you can hopefully plan your path; there's 1 or 2 parts where if you fell down the wrong way, or not far enough, you start over.

This is where multiple modes of difficulty come into play, I believe. Easy or Normal for a fun feel to it, then Hard for a genuine challenge. Go too far (some Treasure games' Hard Modes, most shmups, DMC's insane modes, etc.) and then you kill the interest except for the absolutely OC or SM types.

[Hypershell]

I'm sorry, but I have to throw in my two cents here. For example, MM2 had plenty of instances of memorization ingrained in it. Hell, if you didn't know how to beat one of the bosses, or you miss with even one shot of the CLUSHBOMB, you have to start the whole level over, more often than not having to let yourself get killed repeatedly since you can't do anything for the remainder of your lives. I'm sorry, but MM9 didn't really have anything quite as bad as that.

The Crash Bomb management is not memorization, it's basic mathematics.  Unless for some reason you were using it before the fight, that is.  Even so, all you have to do is camp on your next life.

Also in shmups memorization is very important (if not the most important). One wrong move, and BLAM!, there goes your high-score.

And if MegaMan was a shmup, that would mean something.

In MM9 you shouldn't ever have a problem with grabbers or Splash Woman's spikes after that one recon trip, same way you shouldn't ever complain about Quick Man's lasers once you find out about Time Stopper.

I know, but that's the problem!

Now my poor brother Mario thinks he's a monkey!
Once you have memorized MM9's layout, there's not a whole lot left to the game (sans DLC; I'm talking about the core package).  It's otherwise dirt simple.  That's the imbalance.  I don't mind hard or easy games, but that specific combination comes off as unrewarding.

[Alice in Entropy]

I'm not really sure what weakens replay value for me, so I'll just go for what makes it...

- Non-linear level path/choosing your own way; a lot of games can still be fun when you have to go a linear path, but making your own is always more fun. If they have open levels for you to explore to your heart's content, even better!
  (Main references: Super Mario 64, most Mega Man games)
- After-game goodies and bonuses; so you know that, even when the game is over, there's lots more stuff to do and find.
  (Main references: Tales of Symphonia, Disgaea 2)
- Fun boss fights; the kind of bosses that are either fantastically quirky, well-designed or just make you want to try them again.
  (Main references: Sonic 1-3, Mega Man series, some Mario games)
- Gripping storyline/characters; there are a few games out there that really got me involved in the story and characters, and when the game was finally over, it became something of a bittersweet moment (until I went back to get the aformentioned hidden goodies!)
  (Main references: Tales of Symphonia, Disgaea 2, No More Heroes)
- Arcade-style fun; simple, quick-paced action with enough addictive value and chances to try again that keep you coming back for more.
  (Main references: Gunstar Heroes, Full Metal Alchemist: Dual Sympathy, Guitar Hero: World Tour, Mario Party series)
- Customisation; why do what the game wants when you can make your own characters and stages?
  (Main reference: Super Smash Bros. Brawl, some RPGs)
- Heaps of beloved characters; need I say more?
  (Main references: Super Smash Bros. series)

[Fxeni]

The Crash Bomb management is not memorization, it's basic mathematics.  Unless for some reason you were using it before the fight, that is.  Even so, all you have to do is camp on your next life.

Let me put it this way. This very situation is the reason I usually refrain from using special weapons in stages in any MM game. I was screwed over enough times by that part that it just pissed me off. Anyways, my point was that you can't possibly know the first time through the game about it, and it's much worse than the MM9 stuff.

[Strider Xhaiden]

Hmm....

Makes:

- Fun Factor: If the game is fun to play (i.e. beating generic henchman to a pulp doesn't get old) then I'll replay it.
 - Examples: The Bouncer, Silent Bomber, Dynasty/Samurai Warriors series.
- A sense of progression/Multiple choices: By this I mean an interesting story with branching paths.
 - Examples: The Bouncer, Skies of Arcadia
- Post-game Carnage: Lots of extra stuff after the end, like hidden dungeons or bosses
 - Examples: Tales of Symphonia, Kingdom Hearts (I've never played this, so I can't vouch for it, but...)


Kills:

- Unskippable Cutscenes before boss battles: Normally this occurs in games I like, which is something of an irritation.
 - Examples: Legend of Dragoon, Most Final Fantasy games.
- Unbalanced enemies: If this is Lu Bu in Dynasty Warriors I'm not bothered, because you don't HAVE to fight him in most cases. Generic enemies with insta-kill moves, however, = Fail
 - Examples: Final Fantasy series.
- Battle System: (This one may contain spoilers for those who haven't played FFIV DS)
[spoiler] - For example, the ATB System used in the Final Fantasy series, particularly FFIV. Allow me to relate a scenario that occurred when I playing this game a few days ago.

 *Boss battle with Golbez starts, my party is still a little banged up from the fight with Calcabrina. Cecil only has about 600hp left*
Me: *waiting for a bar to fill up so I can actually do something*
 *Golbez initiates scene where everyone except Cecil, who is still paralyzed from Golbez' attack and has not had a chance to heal, dies*
Me: This isn't good....
 *New scene, Rydia appears, cures Cecil of paralysis and joins the fight. Golbez puts his barrier up and Cecil and Rydia's bars start to fill*
Me: Alright, revive as many as I can, then find a way through the barrier.....
 *Before any member of my party even gets a turn, Golbez casts Bio and kills everyone who isn't already dead. GAME OVER*
Me: *unprintable string of curse words*[/spoiler]


That last one in particular is a real killer for me.

[Hypershell]

Let me put it this way. This very situation is the reason I usually refrain from using special weapons in stages in any MM game. I was screwed over enough times by that part that it just pissed me off. Anyways, my point was that you can't possibly know the first time through the game about it, and it's much worse than the MM9 stuff.

Is there ANY other reason to use Crash Bomb besides the walls in Stage 2/3?  Or did you just not bother to restore it?

I would think the worst part would be Bubble Lead being required on the final boss; there are no enemies to camp should you run out.  First time, rusty reflexes/timing, possible abuse against earlier bosses, I could see where that could cause an issue.  Crash Bomb can be restored, it's just tedious to do so.

[Zan]

Those specific segments in mm2 and some of the Rush segments in mm3s Doc Robot stages are the reason why Capcom should have just included a regenerating pinwheel...

[Fxeni]

Is there ANY other reason to use Crash Bomb besides the walls in Stage 2/3?  Or did you just not bother to restore it?

I would think the worst part would be Bubble Lead being required on the final boss; there are no enemies to camp should you run out.  First time, rusty reflexes/timing, possible abuse against earlier bosses, I could see where that could cause an issue.  Crash Bomb can be restored, it's just tedious to do so.

I just never restored it, because I had no idea I needed it that badly. The last boss didn't go quite as bad for me, actually. But yeah, I think you got my point.

[Rodrigo Shin]

I'll let DZ post it here about what kills replay value since our opinions are the same. It has a "five" in the title.

[Hypershell]

Those specific segments in mm2 and some of the Rush segments in mm3s Doc Robot stages are the reason why Capcom should have just included a regenerating pinwheel...

There is no reason you should be running out of Rush energy in MM3 unless you're doing it on purpose, or just plain careless.  There are only two Jet-required areas and there are MORE than enough weapon power-ups to get you through multiple times.  The idea is you're not supposed to grab them if you don't need them, but I'll admit that cutting back and having what's left regenerate wouldn't be a bad thing.

Still, I never ran out of Rush Jet.  And this is back in the childhood days when my trial-and-error skills weren't developed enough to figure out what the hell worked on Snake Man.

[HyperSonicEXE]

The Crash Bomb management is not memorization, it's basic mathematics.  Unless for some reason you were using it before the fight, that is.  Even so, all you have to do is camp on your next life.
And if MegaMan was a shmup, that would mean something.
I know, but that's the problem!

Now my poor brother Mario thinks he's a monkey!
Once you have memorized MM9's layout, there's not a whole lot left to the game (sans DLC; I'm talking about the core package).  It's otherwise dirt simple.  That's the imbalance.  I don't mind hard or easy games, but that specific combination comes off as unrewarding.

You know how HARD it is to camp in that stage?

Any game becomes easy after memorization. Even Star Fox 64 has that element.
But the Hero and Superhero modes, I eventually wound up buying because I'll never want to memorize three layouts, which should keep the game interesting. One layout, two layouts; second nature. Three? Too much to keep up with.

[Hypershell]

You know how HARD it is to camp in that stage?

I didn't say it was easy, I said it can be done.  I know, I've done it.  As opposed to the final stage which absolutely cannot be camped, no matter how hard you may try.

Any game becomes easy after memorization. Even Star Fox 64 has that element.

You have a keen sense of the obvious.  However, I made that statement as a matter of severity, not as an absolute.

But the Hero and Superhero modes, I eventually wound up buying because I'll never want to memorize three layouts, which should keep the game interesting. One layout, two layouts; second nature. Three? Too much to keep up with.

As I already said within it, my last post was written within the context of the core package, not DLC.  DLC worked wonders for MM9.  Endless Attack, which would have been heaven if not for those damn claws, and Proto Man were both wonderful.

Hero and Superhero were welcome additions, but IMHO too little too late.  There's really no reason anybody should have to purchase extra difficulty levels separately, and while an extra buck of Wii points won't break my wallet, the extra wait for early adopters was a killer.  No player, least of all the hardcore who are most likely to make that early purchase, should have to have their hand forcibly held for a month before a proper challenge is permitted.  Great content, bad strategy.

[xemiroth]

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[xemiroth]

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