Topic: Rock-Research - From R1 to R&F **WARNING: Long Read**

[Joseph Collins]

How about analyzing Game Boy games?

Hm...  I hadn't seriously considered doing that, since the Game Boy games were designed much differently from the NES games.  But to analyze the series as a whole against itself?  I'll give it some thought.  Might be odd, though, considering how radically different Rockman World and especially Rockman World 2 are from the other three.  Heh.

[Zan]

How about analyzing Game Boy games?

They're even less made in-house.

[Ladd Spencer]

There's a couple reasons I didn't include 9 and 10 in the list.  The biggest reason is that they were created by Inti Creates, not Capcom in-house.  Bearing that in mind, the series technically ends at 8, & Forte being an "alternate timeline" continuation of the series (and off-topic, probably my second favorite game!)
The other reason is far less valid.  See, I don't actually have a convenient way to play them.  I'm one of the 1% of gaming America that does not own a 7th generation console.  T_T;  I was going to buy a 360 at some point, but then that money went toward other things.  Something equally frivolous, no doubt.    However, I could emulate them, if need be.  That would probably be more useful for the depth of research I'm doing, actually.  I'm just kind of scared of my computer at the moment.  It's working... a little too well, since I cleaned it up.  I'm afraid that something might go wrong.  Like the CPU will suddenly overheat or something.  Lame excuse, I know...

Used Wiis have got to be cheap as [parasitic bomb] these days, and the Wii version is the one that doesn't have rounded pixels. Plus the Wii Remote is a great controller for it.

For some reason, that game seems much easier overall, even without the mountains of 1-ups you get for no apparent reason.  There are some challenging areas, such as Crystalman's stage, or (I think) one of the final stages, but for the most part?  Pretty easy game.  Pretty fun, too!

Eh, it's arguable both ways. Losing the charge is no fun, and can oftentimes result in a few hits.

Hm...  I hadn't seriously considered doing that, since the Game Boy games were designed much differently from the NES games.  But to analyze the series as a whole against itself?  I'll give it some thought.  Might be odd, though, considering how radically different Rockman World and especially Rockman World 2 are from the other three.  Heh.

They're so awesome though, with their 4 and 4 set-up, extra weapons, and mid-stages.

They're even less made in-house.

Weren't they made with zero involvement from Inafune? On the other hand, he was very much involved with 9 and 10, right? Or at least 9? I forget.

[Flame]

& Forte being an "alternate timeline" continuation of the series

Since when was Rockman and Forte an alternate timeline?

RnF2 was definitely not in house that I can remember, but im pretty sure it's in continuity, considering ZX references at least one of the bosses.

[Joseph Collins]

* Originally, Mega Man & Bass was meant to be an "alternate continuation" of the Mega Man classic series that followed the events of Mega Man 8, but Mega Man 9's ending directly referenced the ending of Mega Man & Bass (as well as the endings of the other eight numerical games in the series).

Also, I don't think most people consider Challenger from the Future because it was made by Bandai.  Then again, despite being a licensed title, it was mentioned in the R20 Rockman & Rockman X Official Complete Works book.  I think, at the very least, it could be considered a canon sequel to Rockman & Forte, which itself was made canon by Rockman 9, whose canonity is debatable given it and 10 were made by Inti Creates.

But that's just my opinion o/'

[The Great Gonzo]

Also, I don't think most people consider Challenger from the Future because it was made by Bandai.  Then again, despite being a licensed title, it was mentioned in the R20 Rockman & Rockman X Official Complete Works book.

Oddly, it was excluded from the Robot Master Field Guide, along with every other licensed game. (Wonder if "The Legends of Rockman" made any mention of them.) It feels like the licensed games exist in this weird space where they're only in the same continuity as the mainlines when Capcom feels like it.

[Flame]

* Originally, Mega Man & Bass was meant to be an "alternate continuation" of the Mega Man classic series that followed the events of Mega Man 8, but Mega Man 9's ending directly referenced the ending of Mega Man & Bass (as well as the endings of the other eight numerical games in the series).

Are there any sources to back that up? MM Wiki doesnt seem to have any for that particular bit of trivia. And MM Wikia is NOT the best place to go for accurate Mega Man information. More specifically when it concerns story. The Mega Man network Wiki is better.

I mean, it's working title WAS 8.5, after all. Nowhere have I ever read that it was supposed to be an alternate continuity.

Also, Mega Man 9 directly references MM&B in the Wily begging montage, meaning it IS in fact part of the timeline, not alternate.

Besides, Capcom doesnt do Alternate Continuities. Not like DC/Marvel. The Earth 1/2/3 etc. It's either part of the timeline, or it's simply not. Usually the licensed products are sometimes excluded.

That's not to say they have not done Alternate realities/universes, but not alternate continuities of the same timeline.

Actually, Rockman Online would have been the first time something like that was done. (and again, it was not made by Capcom)

Rockman 9, whose canonity is debatable given it and 10 were made by Inti Creates.

Everything is canonical. It's all part of the Rockman Canon. Canonicity doesnt mean what you think it means.

However, Rockman 9 and 10 are easily part of the timeline because the Zero and ZX series are part of the timeline, and both are made by Inti as well. Rockman 10 directly ties into the X series with the Roboenza becoming the basis for the Sigma Virus, and the reason for Light giving X Perfect Virus Countermeasures, making him completely immune to the Sigma Virus.

The Zero series timeline references both Rockman 10, and the events that it's plot later caused in the X series.

Mainly how the Roboenza made Light consider that X might fight virus infected Robots in the future, and how it was the basis for the Sigma Virus that was put in Zero's Capsule, which made Zero good and Sigma evil.

TL;DR, 8.5, 9, and 10 are all part of the timeline, since the Zero series and ZX series are too.

[Zan]

Oddly, it was excluded from the Robot Master Field Guide, along with every other licensed game. (Wonder if "The Legends of Rockman" made any mention of them.)

Challenger From The Future is mentioned:

http://rockmanx.exteen.com/

That contents page also very nicely corresponds to the best possible timeline of all the games.

Since when was Rockman and Forte an alternate timeline?

In an interview regarding R9, Inafune described RnF as "parallel", however R9 itself shows the game in-continuity.  I reckon this is in reference to the ability to choose Rock or Forte, but only one of the two lines actually leading to the next game.

The Arcade games were described as a parallel universe by Capcom too. They did this to allow the game to exist with several inconsistencies (e.g. character abilities), while still acknowledging the title as part of the continuity in broad strokes.

Rockman 9, whose canonity is debatable given it and 10 were made by Inti Creates.

While Inti Creates it the primary developer, Capcom employees did work on those too. Inafune always was one of the producers, for example.

IMO, the Inti Rockman games are a part of the Capcom Rockman series in the same way that the Capcom Zelda games are part of the Nintendo Zelda series. Hyrule Historia confirmed the latter beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[The Great Gonzo]

Challenger From The Future is mentioned:

http://rockmanx.exteen.com/

That contents page also very nicely corresponds to the best possible timeline of all the games.

Ah, thanks. (Man, SAR is pretty far down...)

[Zan]

(Man, SAR is pretty far down...)

Well, the game has both Beat and a non-antagonistic Blues: hence, post R5. Similarly, it lacks any elements of R7 such as Forte. With Wily's capture in R6, SAR can exist nowhere else except between the last two NES titles. If one then has to choose between it, Soccer and World, W5 is the only title that sets up all the requirements for SAR to come into being; W5's ending allows for a somewhat reformed Wily to assist Right just as he did in R3.

[The Great Gonzo]

I'd completely forgotten that Beat was in SAR. :/

Speaking of SAR, I can't tell if it was really stricken from the canon or not. Mr. Inafune didn't like it, and Ra Moon and Ra Thor were absent from the Field Guide, but Ra Moon's looking to be an important character in Archie-MM (NOT implying that the comic and games are the same continuity; rather, I'd think that if SAR was truly wiped out, Archie would've been denied use of characters introduced there).

[Joseph Collins]

Everything is canonical. It's all part of the Rockman Canon. Canonicity doesnt mean what you think it means.

I'm... pretty sure it means exactly what I think it does.  Canonity basically means "official," usually referring to a timeline or an event.  For example, canonically speaking, Ryu won the first "World Warrior" tournament.  The non-canonical side of that?  Ken winning that one instead of Ryu. Another example: Lui Kang canonically won the first Mortal Kombat tournament, but non-canonically, any of the other seven competitors could have won.

*finger waggle*  Don't tell me I don't know what canonity is.  XP

In an interview regarding R9, Inafune described RnF as "parallel", however R9 itself shows the game in-continuity.  I reckon this is in reference to the ability to choose Rock or Forte, but only one of the two lines actually leading to the next game.

The Arcade games were described as a parallel universe by Capcom too. They did this to allow the game to exist with several inconsistencies (e.g. character abilities), while still acknowledging the title as part of the continuity in broad strokes.

Mm.  That makes sense.  I mean, either ending could make sense, but obviously, Rockman was the one who beat Wily officially.  Kind of like how Ryu "officially" won the second World Warrior tournament in Street Fighter II.

While Inti Creates it the primary developer, Capcom employees did work on those too. Inafune always was one of the producers, for example.

IMO, the Inti Rockman games are a part of the Capcom Rockman series in the same way that the Capcom Zelda games are part of the Nintendo Zelda series. Hyrule Historia confirmed the latter beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Eh, alright.  I'll concede that point.  But to be honest, despite my protesting, Rockman & Forte will always be the true end of the series in my heart.  X3

[OBJECTION MAN]

Mr. Inafune didn't like it,

I'd think that if SAR was truly wiped out, Archie would've been denied use of characters introduced there).

Inafune doesn't make the call for things like this. The people who let Legends 3, MMU, and Rockman Online suffer are. Ultimately, its likely the contract with Archie went as follows:

You have the rights to produce a Megaman comic from this date, until this date, (or X number of issues), where as each issue is subject to the approval of Capcom corporate.

The things they'll look for are things such as (but not limited to); child friendlyness, hot button activist group issues, brand status, interpolated brand image vs content, and profitability by exposure. The accuracy of the canonical aspects are not their concern. They want brand image protection, and profitability by exposure. Anything else? Not their concern.

[Flame]

I'm... pretty sure it means exactly what I think it does.  Canonity basically means "official," usually referring to a timeline or an event.  For example, canonically speaking, Ryu won the first "World Warrior" tournament.  The non-canonical side of that?  Ken winning that one instead of Ryu. Another example: Lui Kang canonically won the first Mortal Kombat tournament, but non-canonically, any of the other seven competitors could have won.

*finger waggle*  Don't tell me I don't know what canonity is.  XP

But... a canon is, to use one of it's many applications, is "any comprehensive list of books within a field. " EG the Shakespeare canon. In this case, the Mega Man canon would encompass games that are well, Mega Man games, would it not?

I don't mean to get into an argument over this, but I feel this all needs to be clarified since I always hear the term canon being tossed around to refer to things that have happened in the continuity, "the canonical scenario in X5 is the colony is destroyed and X fights Hunter Zero" and then the other side saying that is not how the term works, since they would all be canon since all the scenarios are in the same one game, whereas only one of them actually happened however.

[Ladd Spencer]

RnF2 was definitely not in house that I can remember, but im pretty sure it's in continuity, considering ZX references at least one of the bosses.

If Challenger from the Future is in continuity, wouldn't US Gold Game Gear MM and Bandai's X cards be as well?

What's the R&F2 reference in ZX?

Is it ZX or ZXA that references BBAM? How that does that fit in?

The canon for all games with alternate characters is Mega Man, X, or the male of the two for ZX did it? Or is that an unfair assumption?

http://rockmanx.exteen.com/

I suddenly have the urge to learn... Arabic? Is that Arabic? What a cutie.

[Flame]

ZXA references MM1's bad box art,

"These are legendary heroes? They look more like coal miners in colorful outfits"

or something like that, and theres a Konro Man comic book that one of the Hunters reads.

[The Great Gonzo]

I suddenly have the urge to learn... Arabic? Is that Arabic?

Thai.

If Challenger from the Future is in continuity, wouldn't US Gold Game Gear MM and Bandai's X cards be as well?

Best of Megaman, maybe. The X cards seem more attached to Ariga's related story than anything else.

[Flame]

Ariga's Mega Mission story came from the cards.

[The Great Gonzo]

Ariga's Mega Mission story came from the cards.

I knew that, but...eh. Poorly-worded sentence.

[Ladd Spencer]

Thai.

That does make more sense, since she looks Thai.

Best of Megaman

Is that what they called it? I forget how that game even worked, or who was in it.

[Zan]

I'm... pretty sure it means exactly what I think it does.  Canonity basically means "official," usually referring to a timeline or an event.  For example, canonically speaking, Ryu won the first "World Warrior" tournament.  The non-canonical side of that?  Ken winning that one instead of Ryu. Another example: Lui Kang canonically won the first Mortal Kombat tournament, but non-canonically, any of the other seven competitors could have won.

*finger waggle*  Don't tell me I don't know what canonity is.  XP

I'd rather argue that canonically, any of the competitors in any Street Fighter could win. It's just a sequel has to choose one over the others. It is indeed canon that for that sequel to occur certain requirements have to be met, but they can just as easily release another canonical sequel occurring in parallel that relies on very different events . To continue with the Zelda analogies; canonically Triforce of the Gods follows Ocarina of Time in a parallel universe where Ganon defeated Link. The in-game portrayal of a victorious Link lead to Twilight Princess and Wind Waker instead.

Uhh, many a DBZ movie is never mentioned in the manga (aside for a few), which is the original source, nor the OVAs were ever brought up by other characters in the anime (barring the Garlic Jr. filler saga), aside from a few further exploring the details of a once-proud warrior race's final moments and where Future Trunks originated from. THOSE MOVIES ALONE should be therefore considered canon.

Movies refrenced in games however is just modified plot to accompany the series' ever-growing roster. Hell, in some of the games you got to play as Hatchyack for cryin' out loud, and he was a VG-Only character! There's a thing called a "Side Story" (and to an extent, some games have a "what-if?" scenario. Same can be said for Power Battles, which would be a side story. A bonus round. A Gaiden, if you will.

The medium is in no way representative of canon status. First and foremost, canon status is entirely relative; in the DBZ example, the movies are canonical to themselves and sometimes to the anime. In turn the anime is also canonical to itself and half the time to the manga. Whereas the manga is fully canonical to itself beyond a shadow of a doubt.

On the other hand, an anime movie like One Piece Strong World is canonical to the manga because of Oda's personal influence with it. He went as far as reference it in a prequel chapter to his whole manga. By comparison, Taito Kubo's tie-in to Bleach: Hell Verse is deliberately exclaimed to be parallel work (and indeed, the timeline does not allow for it).

The X cards seem more attached to Ariga's related story than anything else.

The Megamission stories are each stated to be "Rockman X Another Story." Their timeline of events is intricately woven around X3. However several details invalidate its co-existence with the mainline stories.

Ariga's manga adaptation of it is just that: an adaptation. Though based upon the first story, it diverges from the cards in many ways.

[Flame]

What was the deal i recall always hearing about the Mega Missions being "Semi- Canonical"? I dont remember where that comes from.

[Zan]

Megamission like RnF WS is first and foremost considered "semi-"canonical in that its existence is acknowledged within R20. Outside of that, Inti and Ariga are apparently quite fond of KonroMan, while several Capcom employees have been involved with MegaMission either during conception (Keiji Inafune, R20) or merchandising (Sensei, model kits). We also shouldn't forget that Bandai does have quite a notable track record of publishing Rockman merchandise with canonical plot details included.

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