What did Lumine mean?

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Offline Zan

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Reply #200 on: September 30, 2009, 03:44:47 AM
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(final monologue before second round)

Thanks for the translation, that certainly clarifies that.

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Another letter brick in the text wall

Taking a few select points from the discussion...

On the matter of the Zero initially created without the Virus. I feel like I'm kinda in the middle of either your opinions. I do not think Wily created a hero purposely, but I do think he had a plan to take out that glaring weakness of his previous masterpieces. When examining Zero's mental capabilities, we must acknowledge how similar to Repliroids it truly is. With its mention in the questionable three keys, we must take into account the high probability of Zero's mental state being defined by the same "circuit" as X has.

On the matter of Wily's allegiance with others. I think Wily's a rather curious character all in all, and that's what makes him deep. He's the bad guy, surely. But he has a lot of redeeming qualities still in him, as demonstrated many times. He gives his own robots tremendous amounts of freedom, he loves all of them, but his anger can be as unforgiving as absolute as his orders are. Likewise, for all his hate, for all his annoyances, he even seems to like his own mortal adversaries; in his rivalry with Right he's never, in his constant struggles with Rockman, he has his own moral standards by which he lives. He's even once worried for his own enemy's will being.

All of that carries over into the X-series. I think Wily's joining forces with Sigma and Gate is quite genuine. He seems to truly like seeing others try and reach for the same goal as him. But all the same, he himself is not actively trying to achieve it anymore. Likewise, he can capture Zero at any time, but has not done so with much intensity. Wily kindly took a back seat in the grandiose plans that have unfolded, but just as easily he's the kind of person to suddenly take up action again and enter the stage casting away all his former bonds. In a very similar manner, Wily is contend seeing the world go to oblivion, but he also has no qualms seeing it saved. Such paradoxes between good and evil seems to define Wily's character.




Offline marshmallow man

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Reply #201 on: October 02, 2009, 06:53:15 PM
I don't have a messenger program, though it's been coming up a lot lately, maybe I will get one.

In the meantime, the beautiful thing about message boards is that there is no need to hurry. There's no time limit for replying, and as long as the board isn't reset it'll still be there, waiting. I didn't have time with vacation, job and school and everything else. Came back to it when the time and the willpower were right. There's no rush.

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When examining Zero's mental capabilities, we must acknowledge how similar to Repliroids it truly is. With its mention in the questionable three keys, we must take into account the high probability of Zero's mental state being defined by the same "circuit" as X has.

Suffering circuit causes more suffering to fans than it seems to for reploids. If it had a mention in some other matter besides early concept material, I'd be more inclined to acknowledge it. Still, I don't mind brainstorming about it though.

If Suffering Circuit is the "true form" of the virus because the virus infects it in higher thinking robots, then Zero's viral DNA program should be essentially the anti-suffering circuit, that pushes the user to one side, or perhaps, to be uncaring towards either side. If Sigma damaged it, maybe the remaining portion operated more like a regular one, or Cain could have identified its damage and attempted to fix it, creating a unique hybrid circuit that yielded super high viral resistance.

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I think Wily's joining forces with Sigma and Gate is quite genuine. He seems to truly like seeing others try and reach for the same goal as him. But all the same, he himself is not actively trying to achieve it anymore. Likewise, he can capture Zero at any time, but has not done so with much intensity. Wily kindly took a back seat in the grandiose plans that have unfolded, but just as easily he's the kind of person to suddenly take up action again and enter the stage casting away all his former bonds. In a very similar manner, Wily is contend seeing the world go to oblivion, but he also has no qualms seeing it saved.

If we never see Wily again in the X series, I think indeed the best explanation for his departure is that he has changed, or that Zero has changed him. Zero's power is shown a success in many ways, even against the "more advanced" and "stronger" forms that were applied in High Max and Gate, and perhaps even the ultimate battle body Wily built for Sigma in X5 was no match for him, depending on what Zero's role in that fight was. He validates Wily's genius, if not his ambition. If Wily's given up participating in villain stuff, it's because he's finally taken enough pride in Zero and respect for who Zero is to believe in something outside of himself again, like a true father caring for his son's well being over his own.



Offline Zan

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Reply #202 on: October 02, 2009, 07:40:27 PM
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Suffering circuit causes more suffering to fans than it seems to for reploids. If it had a mention in some other matter besides early concept material, I'd be more inclined to acknowledge it. Still, I don't mind brainstorming about it though.

If Suffering Circuit is the "true form" of the virus because the virus infects it in higher thinking robots, then Zero's viral DNA program should be essentially the anti-suffering circuit, that pushes the user to one side, or perhaps, to be uncaring towards either side. If Sigma damaged it, maybe the remaining portion operated more like a regular one, or Cain could have identified its damage and attempted to fix it, creating a unique hybrid circuit that yielded super high viral resistance.

I didn't mean it quite like that. Just that Zero's mental capabilities, being a "Repliroid" and all, were made to be similar to X and therefore include the function of worrying. With Worrying, his character is highly likely a virtuous one by default, as Hypershell proposed. Wily might have preferred aspects such as the enhanced processing power of Right's circuit, but this aspect is one that he needs to cancel out.

As we know, the Virus can controls the hearts of Repliroids. We've seen this change countless Repliroids from good to evil and we've seen what becoming one with this very Virus can do to a person. That a Zero capable of "worrying" works in combination with this Virus becomes very clear once we consider that he was intended to be built to be evil; not for justice. Wily employed that Virus to counter what he consider negative side effects of that circuit's use. As such, the virtuous Zero is just an unfortunate byproduct of his approach.

As for Zero's viral resistance, I think that's a thing that could warrant a topic on its own, much like the appearance of the mysterious W that started the circumstance that led to the transfer of the very Virus that resurrected Wily.

To make a long story short, I feel it's probably just a combination of Zero's Wily designed correlation with the Virus which empowers him in large quantities, the effort needed to purify the virtuous Zero to his original state, and the method of viral injection (direct or indirect). I don't think it's something that developed over time, just as much as I honestly wouldn't put much thought behind Cain's meddling. Cain probably just fixed up the gem, scratched the back of his head in puzzled amazement and was honestly surprised when Zero woke up without irregularities.






Offline Align

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Reply #203 on: October 02, 2009, 07:41:45 PM
He validates Wily's genius, if not his ambition. If Wily's given up participating in villain stuff, it's because he's finally taken enough pride in Zero and respect for who Zero is to believe in something outside of himself again, like a true father caring for his son's well being over his own.
A pleasing thought.
Heh, character development after your death...



Offline marshmallow man

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Reply #204 on: October 06, 2009, 07:56:48 PM
Zero doesn't need X's circuitry designs to adapt to a new code of  morality and ethics, robots like Ballade and King previously set the standard for that kind of growth, and without X's extreme form of worrying which good Zero doesn't seem to match with regardless. The ability for Wily to design a smart robot that learns and adapts beyond its origins is already in place.

But supposing Wily is (somehow) copying Light's latest brain designs thinking that they will give some fast-processing edge despite that Light's purpose in the worrying design is to allow the robot be intelligent and sensitive enough to avoid the kind of unethical activities that Wily routinely assigns to his robots, then Wily has some serious adapting to do to suit his purposes. If the worrying is the work of a single chip vs the entire brain, better to just chuck that out and create his own evil version of that chip in its stead. If this is a more general and integrated programming algorithm, then with cutting pasting and splicing evil code which eventually becomes known as the virus is the method of choice. In either regard Zero's eventual heroism is not by default, but by some manner of error or miscalculation. The good side is not meant to be operating without or above the evil side, for the evil as the "true" form is desired above all, and Zero operating without this in firm place is to Wily essentially broken and malfunctioning.

How it came to be malfunctioning is the semantic scene-stealer. If Wily's evil code was never properly a match to cancel out the more noble effects of the circuitry, if that "W" in the X4 flashback scene was the rejection of the darkness or an error of ethical conflict arising, then it was perhaps inevitably Wily's failure inherent in design. Never properly managing to counteract that which he himself had dangerously set into his creation, Wily played with fire and got burned, with none to blame but himself.

Yet contrary to that lies the effects of the virus whose influence can be seen on the vast numbers reploids who are known explicitly to be inheriting some of X's circuit designs and even simpler mechaniloids who are not. One would ask why it works so well on so many but not on the one it was designed to be integrated with in the first place. But in fact, for a while at least, it does seem to work. Zero's evil persona is working fine, at least up until the "W" lights up. In X2 Serges can make it work again for a time, and X5 as well. It would seem then that the concept he utilized is sound in theory, if not yet perfected. The extremes to which must be gone to achieve it grow seemingly greater, the element in Zero which refuses the process perhaps grows stronger.

It is also possible that the "W" was related to some other ill-timed anomaly. Perhaps a triggered memory of Wily from during construction not unlike X's flashback in Day of Sigma, but meant to gain Zero's attention and push him onto destiny's path. Or Wily himself brought back to life by the virus from data within Zero's head, or attempting to communicate with Zero directly into his mind. If something of this nature, Wily's evil programming was still a success, maybe more than Wily himself had dreamed. Only the timing of the situation is amiss.

When applying Inafune's statement, the first hypothesis includes only the circumstance of Wily's design failure at an unfortunate moment, denying Sigma or Cain's presence being necessary or even an influence in the change within him. The latter more heavily relies on the combination of Sigma's involvement in the scenario, damaging Zero's brain and inadvertently siphoning the virus programming into himself, possibly ejecting the spirit form of Wily as well. Without memories and bloodlust Zero can adapt himself anew to the world, but without Sigma being there to take advantage of Zero's momentary weakness there well could have been no such change for the long haired god of destruction.