Do RPGs need complex plots?

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Offline Sapphire Knight

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Reply #25 on: May 06, 2010, 08:29:54 AM
Whether or not an RPG needs a plot is dependent on what it is, in my opinion. To explain what I mean, if it's from a series like Mario, which, for the most part, isn't really big on plot but big on gameplay, then it doesn't. Wheras if it's a series with somewhat poor controls, the story may just be what keeps people playing.

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Offline Rayl

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Reply #26 on: May 06, 2010, 12:48:06 PM
Yes.
This drove me up the wall and through the ceiling in KHII.

...

I cannot stress just how much i share that sentiment. I hated that about KHII, checking the menu every time something happens to get rid of that god damn "New!" icon so it didn't stack up and take ages to get rid of all of them.



Offline VixyNyan

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Reply #27 on: May 06, 2010, 01:22:39 PM
Or you could do that at the very end of the game. ^^;

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Offline Rayl

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Reply #28 on: May 06, 2010, 01:28:55 PM
That has already been pointed out to me but seriously i don't like going through every single file at the end of the game XD It takes aaaaaaaaages to get through it all.

I drew the line at FFXII because it just throws EVERYTHING at you and to make matters worse all of the files are just flat out boring like the rest of the game.



Offline Align

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Reply #29 on: May 06, 2010, 02:28:34 PM
Complex is not good, so no. Hidden depths, sure, like motivations for characters that go unmentioned outside of the in-game database of knowledge, whether this is an actual database or just rumors in a bar.
But complexity for complexity's sake just means you get ridiculous stuff like "oh X's just pretending to be a bad guy so you'll attack Y, but Y is counting on him to do that and reveals it to you, but only because C told him to since C thinks he's the puppet master, but in reality etc etc etc" that makes your head spin.



Offline Dantonumanoa Ongdolota Amycronicon

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Reply #30 on: May 06, 2010, 03:19:00 PM
I drew the line at FFXII because it just throws EVERYTHING at you and to make matters worse all of the files are just flat out boring like the rest of the game.
They tried too hard to make it National [tornado fang]ing Geographic for Dalmascans or something.


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Offline borockman

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Reply #31 on: May 06, 2010, 04:23:15 PM
Monsters are actually the most interesting aspect from FFXII honestly.

Too bad it's too much a hassle to find rare monsters.


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Offline Rin

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Reply #32 on: May 06, 2010, 04:55:52 PM
I like dem nice plots in mah rpgs.
Tough I do like, when plots are simple, but stil have some element of surprise.
Or at least are humorous, like the already mentioned Mario RPGs.



Offline Mirby

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Reply #33 on: May 06, 2010, 05:46:29 PM
Yeah, it bugs me in KHII, them new icons. Meh...

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Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #34 on: May 07, 2010, 06:25:18 PM
The best Final Fantasy is still the first one.

- PUT TOGETHER BAND OF BROS
- HEAVY GRINDAN
- RAIN DOWN TERROR UPON THE LAND
- SAVE EVERYTHING

That's really all you need. Unless they're well-done, I'd say remove all sappy stupid clichéd stories from RPGs. Heck, the last RPGs I played with even remotely enjoyable stories were all from Bioware, and it's mostly because the story is part of the gameplay. But when it's just cutscene-fodder, I'd say it's just taking space.



Offline Pringer X

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Reply #35 on: May 08, 2010, 08:12:59 PM
I believe that you have to have some kind of complexity in an RPG to get people interested in it at the start, but not having too much to lose people in the middle or extremely pissed off at the end. Yes, there is the whole "It's the journey, not the destination" zen crap you can throw, but would you really accept that line if the ending turned out to make just about everything you did completely moot or raise more questions and answers nothing that was raised before or even retcon various things that were clearly established before? If a game is too complex in it's plot, you lose fans and players, but if it's too simple, you also have the potential to lose fans and players because the story isn't that engaging. True, simple stories can work out, such as the Mario and Luigi series, but RPGs isn't exactly Nintendo's forte now, is it? All they really have under their belts would be the M&L and Paper Mario games that have any kind of complexity (because you can't count Pokemon since there's basically no plot and you're only playing to see new 'mons to throw around in balls).

Not only that, but the twists and whatnot are what help define a series or game from the rest of the bunch. Imagine if that instead of a complex break-out (that I would say started sometime in the SNES era and took a huge leap into it in the PS1 era) that all RPGs were just 'random group saves the world without establishing just who they are and what they're fighting' ala Final Fantasy 1. FF1 is really just about four people who go around beating up villains because destiny said so. FF2 is also on the same boat, just on a different end since it's about three people who constantly get a four guy who go around beating up villains because the bad guys are dicks. FF3 is about four people who go around repeating FF1's plot just with different villains, and Dragon Warrior/Quest kinda took the same route as FF2. However, like it or not, in FF4 things started to change. The idea of having the good guy start out on the villain's side occurred and was played around with after that, Chrono Trigger had the idea of using time travel as a way to create complexity and one of the first multi-ender games created, Shin Megami and it's use of demons as allies and going up against God, and god knows what other SNES era RPGs I'm missing that did something different. Then we hit the PS1 era with FF7, 8, Legend of Dragoon, and various others, and then the PS2 with Disgaea, Kingdom Hearts, and a whole tidal wave full of other titles. They're all complex in their own way to tell a story, it's just whether or not it was good that is the question.



Offline Mirby

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Reply #36 on: May 08, 2010, 09:41:29 PM
If every game was that simple, Flash, then the RPG market would be flooded with clones of clones of clones of clones, and so on... The story and plot is what makes each RPG a unique experience, along with the music of course. The battle systems may differ, but they're all the same at the core. If you don't like plot, that's your deal. But don't claim that every RPG should be like that; it wouldn't be feasible from a business sense, nor would it be feasible from a player's sense either. If every RPG was exactly as you said, the genre would've died 20 years ago.

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Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #37 on: May 08, 2010, 09:59:05 PM
If every game was that simple, Flash, then the RPG market would be flooded with clones of clones of clones of clones, and so on... The story and plot is what makes each RPG a unique experience, along with the music of course. The battle systems may differ, but they're all the same at the core. If you don't like plot, that's your deal. But don't claim that every RPG should be like that; it wouldn't be feasible from a business sense, nor would it be feasible from a player's sense either. If every RPG was exactly as you said, the genre would've died 20 years ago.
I love plot. I just hate it when the plot is the same soap opera bullshit we've been going through for decades.



Offline Align

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Reply #38 on: May 08, 2010, 10:29:05 PM
So yeah in a nutshell its not about plots being complex, its about plots being good. Complex plots can be good, just as much as they can be crap.
Also remember Sturgeon's Law.



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Reply #39 on: May 08, 2010, 10:29:57 PM
the plots need to be complex cause that's what i've come to expect from them



Offline Dexter Dexter

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Reply #40 on: May 08, 2010, 10:39:48 PM
Complex plots make my head hurt very very much (KH and some others being an exception).
I love plot. I just hate it when the plot is the same soap opera bullshit we've been going through for decades.
This, yes this.

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Offline Thanatos-Zero

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Reply #41 on: May 08, 2010, 10:46:44 PM
It is all about the execution of ideas. The plot of RPGs doesn´t need to be complex to be sucessful as the Super Mario RPGs had shown us, that even simple stories can be entertaining.

Or do you want the Tropeless Tale?



Offline Mirby

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Reply #42 on: May 08, 2010, 11:02:08 PM
If every single RPG had no plot other than DEFEAT THESE GUYS WHILE GRINDING then it wouldn't be good. That was what you said. RPGs today have more story than any other genre; they need it to help describe minute details of the world, to bring it to life. Sure, they don't need a massively complex plot, as the oft-mentioned Mario RPGs have shown us, but they still need some detail. Even the first Final Fantasy had some of that. We knew that Astos was enemy of the Elves, and he stole the crown so he could rule. We knew that Matoya couldn't see without her crystal. We knew that Garland wanted to rule the world for whatever reason, and through the time loop he did. Even then, we had these details. If none of these details existed, which were part of both plot and execution of ideas, it wouldn't really be a game. It would be a bland, interactive video. With repetitive battles for no apparent reason and massive enemies, also for no apparent reason. Yes, RPGs may not need overly complex plots, but saying they shouldn't have any is completely insane.

At that point, you are trying to make a Tropeless Tale, which, if you read the page, is completely impossible to do.

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Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #43 on: May 08, 2010, 11:20:41 PM
If every single RPG had no plot other than DEFEAT THESE GUYS WHILE GRINDING then it wouldn't be good. That was what you said. RPGs today have more story than any other genre; they need it to help describe minute details of the world, to bring it to life. Sure, they don't need a massively complex plot, as the oft-mentioned Mario RPGs have shown us, but they still need some detail. Even the first Final Fantasy had some of that. We knew that Astos was enemy of the Elves, and he stole the crown so he could rule. We knew that Matoya couldn't see without her crystal. We knew that Garland wanted to rule the world for whatever reason, and through the time loop he did. Even then, we had these details. If none of these details existed, which were part of both plot and execution of ideas, it wouldn't really be a game. It would be a bland, interactive video. With repetitive battles for no apparent reason and massive enemies, also for no apparent reason. Yes, RPGs may not need overly complex plots, but saying they shouldn't have any is completely insane.

At that point, you are trying to make a Tropeless Tale, which, if you read the page, is completely impossible to do.
I'm not saying every single RPG should have to. I'm just saying it wouldn't hurt to focus on fun gameplay and less story once in awhile. And sure, story details should be had in an RPG, otherwise there's no context. I had just finished saying I loved plot and hated samey retarded weeaboo tales. The story doesn't have to be complex. I mean, look at Kingdom Hearts. Back when the story wasn't complex, it was pretty good. When the story became complex, it degenerated into a multitude of annoying clichés and tropes that make anyone with a bit of sense to tell a good story from a bad one to roll their eyes endlessly at every single cutscene. Look at Paper Mario, Earthbound and Final Fantasy Tactics. GOOD way to make JRPGs. Look at the multitude of crap we have today. BAD way to make RPGs.

I'll list a single recent example. Nostalgia. Basically an ode to old-style RPGs. It starts with you saving a princess as an Indiana Jones-lookalike. Then going missing and suddenly we're our own son and we're all "ADVENTURE F*CK YEAH". It makes us happy, without having to insult us.



Offline Mirby

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Reply #44 on: May 08, 2010, 11:22:47 PM
I'm sorry, now all I read in your posts is BAWWWWWWWW about various things. Companies have to make money somehow; they can't all cater to your wants. If it means making a [parasitic bomb] RPG in your eyes, so be it.

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Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #45 on: May 08, 2010, 11:34:34 PM
I'm sorry, now all I read in your posts is BAWWWWWWWW about various things. Companies have to make money somehow; they can't all cater to your wants. If it means making a [parasitic bomb] RPG in your eyes, so be it.
HAHAHAHAHA. I got a stalker now, is that it? A whiny little bitchy stalker who doesn't even keep to the topics, and has a little vendetta against the guy who's made him angry? Funny how every single one of your posts has gone from replying thoughtfully to my arguments, to complaining about me and me alone. So what if I complain about things? This is the INTERNET. Get off it if you can't stand the rage, kid.



Offline Dantonumanoa Ongdolota Amycronicon

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Reply #46 on: May 08, 2010, 11:42:27 PM
HAHAHAHAHA. I got a stalker now, is that it? A whiny little bitchy stalker who doesn't even keep to the topics, and has a little vendetta against the guy who's made him angry? Funny how every single one of your posts has gone from replying thoughtfully to my arguments, to complaining about me and me alone. So what if I complain about things? This is the INTERNET. Get off it if you can't stand the rage, kid.
What the hell are you talking about? Stalker? I would have liked to ignored this, but you're so full of yourself it makes me want stuff dirt into my eye sockets.


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Offline Mirby

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Reply #47 on: May 08, 2010, 11:42:58 PM
That was highly offensive. I know all about this stuff. Trust me, I've been online for the majority of my life. Stop treating me like I'm some whiny little [sonic slicer]. I've been through a whole lot of [parasitic bomb] in my life, some you couldn't begin to comprehend, and as of now I'm under a tremendous amount of stress. If I take it out on someone, oh well. Don't like it? Too bad. You aren't scaring me away from here. So shut the hell up.

>_>

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Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #48 on: May 08, 2010, 11:46:00 PM
What the hell are you talking about? Stalker? I would have liked to ignored this, but you're so full of yourself it makes me want stuff dirt into my eye sockets.
This guy's been replying to every single post I make, making constant references to every single other post and constantly saying I'm just raging over stuff. If he can't handle it, he should get off the net.

That was highly offensive. I know all about this stuff. Trust me, I've been online for the majority of my life. Stop treating me like I'm some whiny little [sonic slicer]. I've been through a whole lot of [parasitic bomb] in my life, some you couldn't begin to comprehend, and as of now I'm under a tremendous amount of stress. If I take it out on someone, oh well. Don't like it? Too bad. You aren't scaring me away from here. So shut the hell up.

>_>
Now we're up to the "my life is hard" things? Man, you couldn't be more of a cliché, could you?

Anyway, back on topic. I'm actually seeing a growing trend of JRPGs trying out new things. FFXIII tried out (mostly failed to reach the public) a new gameplay form, and The World Ends With You was wonderful in the new setting department. It used a common story in a completely different kind of background. It felt "right".



Offline Dantonumanoa Ongdolota Amycronicon

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Reply #49 on: May 08, 2010, 11:46:45 PM
This guy's been replying to every single post I make, making constant references to every single other post and constantly saying I'm just raging over stuff. If he can't handle it, he should get off the net.
herpity duprity durr etc. It's a debate.


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