Topic: Metroid Discussion Thread

[Zan]

Sexualized, huh? Idealized, huh?

One of those is an over the top deliberate inversion; the others are still attractive in their own merit on multiple levels, even if they restrain themselves compared to say, Team Ninja's regular work. And that's just the thing, any character design will still be made in a way that is pleasing to the viewer. This applies to women AND men alike. We just need to accept a certain level of idealization and sexualization characteristic of visual media. We should be able to judge a character beyond looks. That is after all also what we have to do in reality; you don't choose to look the way you do.

Plot from Megaman X, which I'll use in this example, is laughably bad and simple. By looking so much into this, and trying to make connections of various stupid crap left unanswered, you just make yourself look kinda stupid. Of course, I'm not forcing you to NOT DO THIS, I'm just saying that in my eyes it looks delusional. Not a very bad and dangerous kind of delusional, but still.

I don't ever recall making too much out of the X-series.  In fact, in the titles following the classic timeline, I consider its plot the weakest. What with its episodic structure and a lack of thematic focus. It's not until recent times that it's found its direction once again.

[Bueno Excelente]

Flash: One of those is an over the top deliberate inversion; the others are still attractive in their own merit on multiple levels, even if they contain themselves compared to say, Team Ninja's regular work. And that's just the thing, any character design will still be made in a way that is pleasing to the viewer. This applies to women AND men alike. We just need to accept a certain level of idealization and sexualization characteristic of visual media. We should be able to judge a character beyond looks. That is after all also what we have to do in reality; you don't choose to look the way you do.

You said sexualized and idealized. None of these are either. There's a difference between someone that looks sexual and someone that looks "okay" to viewers. None of them are idealized, and they all commit several mistakes along their way. They all struggle through things and act in a completely human way. Which one is even the over the top deliberate inversion?

I'm thinking you have no idea what the hell you're even saying.

[Rin]

Forgetting Legends? ZX had a good amount of structure as well, even if it was about morphers. Doesn't change the fact that it had some thought behind it. The fact that you even place BN and SF up there qualifies ZX beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Oh and, yeah Sigma was behind everything always that's why- oh [parasitic bomb] X8 and XCM. Oops!

I didn't include Legends, because it goes without saying that these games are pure Gold.
And I didn't include ZX... because, as you might notice, I said:

"WITHOUT ANY WELL MADE CONCLUSION"

ZX had a good plot (for a MEgaman game) and characters, but it lacked a real conclusion. Just like Legends, now that I think about it.
Though we might get one soon for Legends, so eh.

X8? Okay, I'll give you that... BUT HE STILL WAS A MAJOR BOSS THERE, AND ONE OF THE MAJOR PLAYERS TOO... evne if Lumine was more major.
And CM? OH YEAH THAT GAME HAS AN ACTUAL PLOT SO SIGMA ISN'T THE BAD GUY BUT [parasitic bomb] STILL SUX BECAUSE LOL SPIDER IS
[spoiler]Redips 8 D [/spoiler]

Listen. Just because he wasn't the bad guy in two [tornado fang]ing games (X8 barely counts though, for the reasons I kinda explained above), doesn't mean plot in Megaman X games is actually IMPORTANT. By which I mean, from the standpoint of Capcom, not Inafune, because who knows what he really wants, but CAPCOM in general. If they could, they would chum out extensions to X series, with additional plot elements and adding bullshit.
And Sigma would still come back as a bad guy.
Or they would jump on Lumine and make him the new main badguy.
So in other words, Capcom doesn't care about plot, and for the most part plot in Megaman X is just stupid kiddy crap, without any entertainment value.
Keep in mind, I say PLOT. Not games themselves, since I find the games fun (except X7), but the plot in Megaman X is really... bad.

I don't ever recall making too much out of the X-series.  In fact, in the titles following the classic timeline, I consider its plot the weakest. What with its episodic structure and a lack of thematic focus. It's not until recent times that it's found its direction once again.

Funny. I remember different.
Sure, I'm not saying you did this ALL THE TIME, or like... in a maniacal sort of way. But with Isoc being Wily the only example I can remember now... because well, ummm... It just made a huge impression on me, because some of it made actual sense once you gave it some thought.
I said, I could go on a stalking like rampage, regarding all your "I LOOK TOO MUCH INTO IT" regarding Sigma virus, and many other things... but many of those things I read once upon a time are gone now. dem forum crashes, man.

My point is just this: Generally looking too much into plot of video games, especially japanese made video games which are platformers for most part, is just plain silly. I can understand these types of theories regarding a plot of a good book, or movie. These are things which are based on the plot... because without them would be nothing. And it's entirely possible the creator (or creators) actually gave some real thought into these things you are theorizing about.

On the other hand games like megaman series, no matter how good their plots are, are still GAMES. Their appeal comes mostly from gameplay, and plot is just there to make the player feel more close to the characters, and because in these times, most people expect plot from most games.

Well... that's it. Good God this post took me a long time to write. : P

[Flame]

Sigma wasn't behind X6 either BTW. That was all Gate.

[Bueno Excelente]

Can we get back to how Other M's story is horrible, guys?

[OBJECTION MAN]

Yeah. X6 was actually pretty good in terms of story. If Sigma didn't show up at the end, it would have been pretty much perfect aside form the insta-zero-revival concept. But it brought supporting characters into the spotlight, along with deepening the Zero back story, and a new big bad to deal with who was previously unknown but fit right in.

OH- [parasitic bomb]. We're moving on, I forgot. Sorry.


THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY

[Bueno Excelente]

Alright, attempt to launch a halfway decent line of debate here...

How do you guys stand on Shadow Complex's gameplay?

[OBJECTION MAN]

It was a little loose, but it worked. It was fluid enough, and I adjusted fairly quickly. The aiming was sometimes a little wonky, but I never had any trouble finishing a fight. Ducking around and crawling through vents seemed pretty natural and flowed well. Overall I liked it a lot. One of the best damn games of this console generation to be frank.

Oh and thank god they had enough sense to give you unlimited ammo.

[Flame]

Relevant.

[STM]

How to best enjoy Metroid Other M in any capacity:

1) Remove game from case
2) Load into machine
3) Aim
4) Machine fires up disk
5) Duck Hunt music
6) Shoot down disk as it goes flying away

Congratulations, you beat the game! Wasn't that fun?

[Bueno Excelente]

It was a little loose, but it worked. It was fluid enough, and I adjusted fairly quickly. The aiming was sometimes a little wonky, but I never had any trouble finishing a fight. Ducking around and crawling through vents seemed pretty natural and flowed well. Overall I liked it a lot. One of the best damn games of this console generation to be frank.

Oh and thank god they had enough sense to give you unlimited ammo.

The only wonky part of the aiming was the depth part, which was made automatic and you sometimes had to re-aim at an enemy for it to be aimed straight at him. I honestly think the depth part was brilliant in several ways, but it caused those slight aiming problems. A future title would have the option to aim freely in depth as well as height. The grenade engine and explosions in general felt brilliant, and so did the machine design.

The melee attacks also felt kinda overpowered at times, seeing as whenever you did one, you'd automatically kill almost any enemy in a scene where all other enemies simply disappeared from a level. But it felt pretty cool, and it wasn't any issue. I still consider this game to be the best way to make a third-person Metroid.

[Zan]

You said sexualized and idealized. None of these are either. There's a difference between someone that looks sexual and someone that looks "okay" to viewers. None of them are idealized, and they all commit several mistakes along their way. They all struggle through things and act in a completely human way. Which one is even the over the top deliberate inversion?

I'm thinking you have no idea what the hell you're even saying.

Specifically in terms of looks, I'm just saying that the main characters of 'Beyond Good and Evil' and 'Mirror's Edge' still have perfect complexion, facial features and physique. This is a type of idealizing that occurs with both women and men in visual media; developers still try to make characters look good.

"Sexualizing" here becomes a matter of how much this inherent idealization is highlighted by how revealing the character's clothes are. Or otherwise put: how much form the graphic artists decided to display.  You're right that they do that way too much. But our opinions on a character's personality and development shouldn't be influenced by that. Just like we should ignore the matter of gender; if a character is good, it's good. If a character is bad, it's bad.  

Translating back to Samus; Nintendo always showed her with an idealized appearance.  Team Ninja just happened to show it in more than just the game endings. Really, let developers sexualize characters if that's their things and just ignore it if it bugs you. But judge characters for what they are, not for that they appear.

And I didn't include ZX... because, as you might notice, I said:

"WITHOUT ANY WELL MADE CONCLUSION"

ZX had a good plot (for a MEgaman game) and characters, but it lacked a real conclusion. Just like Legends, now that I think about it.
Though we might get one soon for Legends, so eh.

Beyond the necessary sequel hook of a game series, both ZX and DASH concluded themselves nicely. But I don't get it, why would you fault any story for being incomplete? You need only review it for what it did present. The same applies to every other long running series, Metroid included.

Listen. Just because he wasn't the bad guy in two [tornado fang]ing games (X8 barely counts though, for the reasons I kinda explained above), doesn't mean plot in Megaman X games is actually IMPORTANT. By which I mean, from the standpoint of Capcom, not Inafune, because who knows what he really wants, but CAPCOM in general. If they could, they would chum out extensions to X series, with additional plot elements and adding bullshit.
And Sigma would still come back as a bad guy.
Or they would jump on Lumine and make him the new main badguy.
So in other words, Capcom doesn't care about plot, and for the most part plot in Megaman X is just stupid kiddy crap, without any entertainment value.
Keep in mind, I say PLOT. Not games themselves, since I find the games fun (except X7), but the plot in Megaman X is really... bad.

The plot of the X-series is enjoyable because it's a teenage's story. Much like classic is enjoyable because it's a children's story; it's part of the charm.

From there, by who's declaration is a recurring antagonist a sign of plot being unimportant or bad? Both Wily and Sigma's recurring role are an important assets to the mythos, well accepted by the later series with their more mature approach in story-telling. Just as much, Ridley's return in Metroid is an important plot asset. It's there for the sake of gameplay and fanservice, but does it really detract from the plot?

I said, I could go on a stalking like rampage, regarding all your "I LOOK TOO MUCH INTO IT" regarding Sigma virus, and many other things... but many of those things I read once upon a time are gone now. dem forum crashes, man.

What I believe you're talking about now is a ZERO-series recollection on the X-series. It was Inti Creates that gave us information drastically altering our perception of the X-series. By what double standard would you acknowledge the ZERO-series and ignore what it says about the X-series? Fact of the matter is that the X-series has deepened by the many references to it from the other series. Entirely comparable to how both Prime and Other M have added depth to classic Metroid.

My point is just this: Generally looking too much into plot of video games, especially japanese made video games which are platformers for most part, is just plain silly. I can understand these types of theories regarding a plot of a good book, or movie. These are things which are based on the plot... because without them would be nothing. And it's entirely possible the creator (or creators) actually gave some real thought into these things you are theorizing about.

On the other hand games like megaman series, no matter how good their plots are, are still GAMES. Their appeal comes mostly from gameplay, and plot is just there to make the player feel more close to the characters, and because in these times, most people expect plot from most games.

I prefer to think creators put their heart, soul and imagination into designing characters, a world, and stringing together a fun little plot from the depths of their mind. No matter how deep the end result is, there is still a great deal of effort put into something what could just be a different variation of two squares bouncing a square ball between two square goal posts.

[Rin]

[Beyond the necessary sequel hook of a game series, both ZX and DASH concluded themselves nicely. But I don't get it, why would you fault any story for being incomplete? You need only review it for what it did present. The same applies to every other long running series, Metroid included.

Oh believe, I'm not really faulting those two. I merely wanted to say, that by judging how they ended, they KINDA lacked a real conclusion, though ZX is in much bigger need of a conclusion (story wise, because it's obvious I want new Legends game more : P) than Legends. What with all this [parasitic bomb] Thomas pulled out, and stuff.

The plot of the X-series is enjoyable because it's a teenage's story. Much like classic is enjoyable because it's a children's story; it's part of the charm.

From there, by who's declaration is a recurring antagonist a sign of plot being unimportant or bad? Both Wily and Sigma's recurring role are an important assets to the mythos, well accepted by the later series with their more mature approach in story-telling. Just as much, Ridley's return in Metroid is an important plot asset. It's there for the sake of gameplay and fanservice, but does it really detract from the plot?

Just because it's a teenage story, doesn't mean it DOESN'T stink. Really... I like the world of MEGAMAN X, and it's characters so much, but I can't help but headdesk when I think about many things in the plots of these games.
And I would enjoy Megaman X6 plot more... if the game wasn't translated like [parasitic bomb]. But that's more of a translators fault, than the writers. But yeah, it just shows how much people actually cared for the story. : <

What I believe you're talking about now is a ZERO-series recollection on the X-series. It was Inti Creates that gave us information drastically altering our perception of the X-series. By what double standard would you acknowledge the ZERO-series and ignore what it says about the X-series? Fact of the matter is that the X-series has deepened by the many references to it from the other series. Entirely comparable to how both Prime and Other M have added depth to classic Metroid.

I don't exactly ignore what Zero series says about the X series, and how it deepens it, but... comparing to what I got in Zero and ZX... everything in Megaman X just stinks. No matter how much the two of them (Zero and ZX) try to fix or add stuff.

I prefer to think creators put their heart, soul and imagination into designing characters, a world, and stringing together a fun little plot from the depths of their mind. No matter how deep the end result is, there is still a great deal of effort put into something what could just be a different variation of two squares bouncing a square ball between two square goal posts.

Oh, I think that too. Except the problem in this case, we are still talking about a PLATFORMER, where plot comes second... or maybe third. It's not some kind of "deep rpg" (well, unlike command mission, BN or star force), or an adventure game or something like, I dunno, with actual dialogue... not something thrown together to justify why am I getting atackked by Metools, robo bees and giant [tornado fang]ing mantisks that repair themselves after I killed them and keep spamming dem blades. Heh.

I tell you something, because of something like this, whenever I think up an idea for one of my original stories, I not only think through many facts about various characters, but also things related to history of their worlds.
I'm a person with huge ass imagination, and whether I will write something one day with these characters and worlds is unsure yet... but my point is, it's also easy for me to say and notice when something just wasn't thought through too much, and these kind of "theories" which are often also taken up as truth by some stupid people (keep in mind I don't mean you, or anybody on these forums right now. I'm talking more about stupid n00bs who see a beautiful theory and go preach it like it's something true) just kind of annoy me.

So overall, sorry if i seem like a horrible dick by attacking you like that, but I just wanted to finally say all of those things, since it was sitting like a rock in my stomach.

And with this, I'll just wait for you reply to this one, and I'm not arguing about this anymore.

Peace.

[Bueno Excelente]

Specifically in terms of looks, I'm just saying that the main characters of 'Beyond Good and Evil' and 'Mirror's Edge' still have perfect complexion, facial features and physique. This is a type of idealizing that occurs with both women and men in visual media; developers still try to make characters look good.

"Sexualizing" here becomes a matter of how much this inherent idealization is highlighted by how revealing the character's clothes are. Or otherwise put: how much form the graphic artists decided to display.  You're right that they do that way too much. But our opinions on a character's personality and development shouldn't be influenced by that. Just like we should ignore the matter of gender; if a character is good, it's good. If a character is bad, it's bad. 

Translating back to Samus; Nintendo always showed her with an idealized appearance.  Team Ninja just happened to show it in more than just the game endings. Really, let developers sexualize characters if that's their things and just ignore it if it bugs you. But judge characters for what they are, not for that they appear.

First of all, that sounds incredibly and ridiculous stupid.

Okay, let's see... "perfect" complexion, facial features, and physique? Jade from Beyond Good & Evil has a very normal, natural face. She isn't specially pretty, she's simply normally attractive. And as for Faith from Mirror's Edge... do you not remember the shitstorm that went on because all the [tornado fang]ing japanese weeaboos thought she wasn't good-looking enough? There was actually a guy who "improved her" by photoshopping her figure in order for her boobs to be bigger, cher eyes anime-ish, and her whole figure to be more sexualized.



Something the developers said "No, she's supposed to be normal-looking." What the [tornado fang] do you think is a normal-looking woman? A distinctly ugly one? Because Faith actually looks quite average. She doesn't have a very attractive body according to the usual male ideal, and she's more of an athlete. Put her among other women athletes and she looks just... normal. Her face is stereotypically asian, and she wears a tank top and track pants! Regular exercise clothes. None of the characters are showing off their bodies more than any other woman would do so in a daily basis. Heck, the only reason Kate Walker is wearing such warm clothes, it's because she's in Syberia. Take her to a warmer climate, and she'd wear clothes just as revealing as the other two. Why? Because THAT'S WHAT WOMEN ACTUALLY WEAR. We're not talking about Bloodrayne or DOA, which are completely sexist. We're talking about games that portray their women is a very average and normal way. Jade doesn't have a typical average face because she's a cartoon character, but she's pretty damn average, nothing sexualizing her in any way, no camera angles emphasizing her butt of breasts, nothing.

And I can give male examples as well! What do you make of Frank West, for example?

I'll tell you what I make of him. An averagely unnatractive male. Broad face. Fat features. Potato nose. You think this unmoralist journalist out to get the scoop of his life is handsome?

Let's take on a more popular example. Niko Bellic.

This guy isn't pretty. He's normal. He's pretty ugly, even. And not even idealized in any way.
Heck, look at Marcus from Gears of War.

He's got an ugly face. If not for the bulky muscles which EVERYONE in the Gears universe seems to have, he'd just be another dude.
What about John Marston from Red Dead Redemption? I look at him and I see "ugly man" all over him.

These guys aren't idealized in the slightest. They're dudes with lifes filled with mistakes and bullshit. So are the girls. So, no. In terms of looks or otherwise, they do NOT have perfect complexion or looks or whatever. And their clothes, are normal, typical, everyday outfits you or I would wear in their situations. Do you even know what women wear in their everyday lives, or do you just suspect the ones who are wearing a burka are the only non-sluts? Take a look at what it means to be a normal, everyday human being. Then tell me if you end up agreeing with me, or coming to the conclusion that 80% of the human race is portrayed in a sexual manner.


Also, Samus has always been portrayed as a whore who undresses more depending on how many items you get in her games. I never argued that. I will argue that this was the first time they had to present her personality, and they chose to portray her as an insipid dominated bimbo in a very bad narrative.

[Zan]

I don't exactly ignore what Zero series says about the X series, and how it deepens it, but... comparing to what I got in Zero and ZX... everything in Megaman X just stinks. No matter how much the two of them (Zero and ZX) try to fix or add stuff.

Looking at Irregular Hunter X, the story the X-series is supposed to tell has a lot more merit than you're giving it credit for. It's just the X gradually evolved across the different media and became something more than it was ever intended to be. It are those people who think about that something more, that are in charge of each of the series now.

Okay, let's see... "perfect" complexion, facial features, and physique? Jade from Beyond Good & Evil has a very normal, natural face. She isn't specially pretty, she's simply normally attractive.

Beyond polygon limitations, I see nothing on Jade that isn't perfectionalized. She's flawless if you ask me, but not over the top and throwing it in your face. A well-balanced and restrained design leading to a very natural feel. And that's exactly the kind of inherant idealization I'm talking about; making a character the most aesthetically pleasing because any less would not work for its intended purpose. It just so happens many developers can't restrain themselves and quickly go from idealization to sexualization. Because obviously, thats what the majority wants and thus it sells.

And as for Faith from Mirror's Edge... do you not remember the shitstorm that went on because all the [tornado fang]ing japanese weeaboos thought she wasn't good-looking enough? There was actually a guy who "improved her" by photoshopping her figure in order for her boobs to be bigger, cher eyes anime-ish, and her whole figure to be more sexualized.

I think it's far too simple minded to think of restraining chestsize and adding eye marks as approaching reality in all its facets. Yes, she's definitely closer than the many examples of the Team Ninja kind. But if you were to take even the best cosplayer trying to resemble her, there are certain human things that simply cannot be put into a character design. There is always idealization, just different variations of it depending on creative vision.

This guy isn't pretty. He's normal. He's pretty ugly, even. And not even idealized in any way.

I'm not saying it's impossible to achieve an appearance that's "normal." Especially when referencing a real person it should be doable. What I'm saying is, for the most part, character designs will always be made pleasing in some manner or another, even if that is to perfectionalize looking gritty in accordance with the designated role of gangster. There are certain much more normal types of people that simply will not be used in games. In particular because they don't fit the intended role.

Fat features

And how many realistically fat features would you ever see on a female character without going overboard? From the top of my head, the only games that ever achieved this would be ones with user controlled character generators; not characters specifically designed to be the lead. I wasn't referring to chest size when I wrote of "perfect physique," I was referring to the entire body's proportions. This kind of variety is just not done in actual characters for some reason inherent to the medium.

If not for the bulky muscles

And that's exactly the type of idealization for men I'm referring to. Male leads unlike females can often excuse themselves with facial disfigurations because those only add to the stereotype of the tough guy with big muscles. Of course, most of that is because of the very roles characters occupy within a story; they just have to have that physique otherwise they cannot do what they're supposed to do. But Japan has shrimpy girly men doing the same, which in turn is also an idealization of a different kind. Once again, everything in the middle is ignored in the design process.

sluts?

It's a matter of your own mind being in the gutter if you perceive any woman to be such.

[OBJECTION MAN]

What about John Marston from Red Dead Redemption? I look at him and I see "ugly man" all over him.

I see manly badass childhood role model. Hes rough but he isn't ugly. Chicks dig the bad boys.

[Bueno Excelente]

I see manly badass childhood role model. Hes rough but he isn't ugly. Chicks dig the bad boys.

He's rough, and he's certainly a damn role model, with everything that he goes through, but he's not the "sexualized ideal" character talked about. Hell, girls in the game actually call him ugly.

Beyond polygon limitations, I see nothing on Jade that isn't perfectionalized. She's flawless if you ask me, but not over the top and throwing it in your face. A well-balanced and restrained design leading to a very natural feel. And that's exactly the kind of inherant idealization I'm talking about; making a character the most aesthetically pleasing because any less would not work for its intended purpose. It just so happens many developers can't restrain themselves and quickly go from idealization to sexualization. Because obviously, thats what the majority wants and thus it sells.

I think it's far too simple minded to think of restraining chestsize and adding eye marks as approaching reality in all its facets. Yes, she's definitely closer than the many examples of the Team Ninja kind. But if you were to take even the best cosplayer trying to resemble her, there are certain human things that simply cannot be put into a character design. There is always idealization, just different variations of it depending on creative vision.

I'm not saying it's impossible to achieve an appearance that's "normal." Especially when referencing a real person it should be doable. What I'm saying is, for the most part, character designs will always be made pleasing in some manner or another, even if that is to perfectionalize looking gritty in accordance with the designated role of gangster. There are certain much more normal types of people that simply will not be used in games. In particular because they don't fit the intended role.

And how many realistically fat features would you ever see on a female character without going overboard? From the top of my head, the only games that ever achieved this would be ones with user controlled character generators; not characters specifically designed to be the lead. I wasn't referring to chest size when I wrote of "perfect physique," I was referring to the entire body's proportions. This kind of variety is just not done in actual characters for some reason inherent to the medium.

And that's exactly the type of idealization for men I'm referring to. Male leads unlike females can often excuse themselves with facial disfigurations because those only add to the stereotype of the tough guy with big muscles. Of course, most of that is because of the very roles characters occupy within a story; they just have to have that physique otherwise they cannot do what they're supposed to do. But Japan has shrimpy girly men doing the same, which in turn is also an idealization of a different kind. Once again, everything in the middle is ignored in the design process.

It's a matter of your own mind being in the gutter if you perceive any woman to be such.

Jade isn't flawless. I could sit here and discuss details about the pointy cheekbones, droopy boobs and big ears all day, but I'll just assume you live in whale land and think all regular-looking women look sexualized. Of course she's asthetically pleasing. As a character, in the manner that a symbol is pleasing. But she's not "sexy", she wears regular working clothes with a kind of new age fashion style going on. She's original, but definetly not sexualized in any way. That is the main issue. Not that characters look ugly, but you specifically said "sexualized and ideal". I don't see either. I just see tiptoeing around my questions with vague descriptions with how the industry works. I know how the [tornado fang]ing industry works. I also know that you said "all lead characters are sexualized and idealized", and now you're saying "most characters" and filling the topic with bullshit. Just flat-out admit you're wrong, this is getting tiring.

As for Faith from Mirror's Edge? YES, she looks like a standard asian woman. No idealization, just a plain, asian woman. Cosplayers trying to portray her?
This is a case of a cosplayer who looks JUST like her. I can also give examples of cosplayers who look BETTER than her. It's not hard. She is not idealized, she's supposed to look normal. Stop spewing bullshit and give concrete examples and reasons.

As for certain types of people fitting certain types of roles, NO [parasitic bomb] SHERLOCK. Of course they have to look the part. But that doesn't mean a fat guy or an ugly guy can't be a main character from a game. Hell, look at Detective Scott Shelby from Heavy Rain. He's fat. He's ugly. He's normal.

He's also a main character.

And when you refer to fat, no, there aren't any games that I can remember with fat women, aside from Fable and Fat Princess. Mostly because it's kinda stupid to have a fat character run and jump in the first place (Mario and Wario are just chubby). In terms of men, I showed examples. In terms of women, it hasn't been that long since women have gained their proper equality in games. Give it time, and we'll have a good standard.

You answered your own question with the next one. Skinny guys fighting bigass aliens and wielding huge guns does not make sense. It's the same way you buff up and train as a soldier. But they can still be ugly and flawed. It's not a matter of idealization, it's a matter of LOGIC. And for Japan, I'll just say they've got screwed up tastes. Hell, look at the characters in Battlefield: Bad Company. They're a bunch of crazed soldiers who can look ugly as hell. I seriously cannot tell what kind of argument are you making here other than "they can look ideally full of muscles... but they can excuse that on the fact that all soldiers have them!" What the hell is your point other than being incredibly redundant?

You [tornado fang]'d up. You said something, then backed out on it. Sure that there are plenty of stereotypes in games. All media have them. But saying "ALL" main characters is just stupid. No, they're not ideal. Not by far. They're made for the role, yes. Because that's what you do in any story. They're made to be in that situation. But that wasn't your initial argument, and I am criticizing your initial argument. And I'll quote you again.

First, all (main) characters in fiction are idealized and sexualized in order to attract to the viewer.

No. They are not. Go look for the meaning of "idealized" and "sexualized" on a dictionary if you want. Go look for the meaning of the word ALL. Instead of bullshitting around your own arguments, backtracking on [parasitic bomb] you said, and being a general wuss.

And yes, sluts exist. Both the male and the female kind. Deal with it.


I'm tired of debating with someone who spews so much generic unrelated bullshit and who subtracts past arguments for the sake of trying to look smart. Let's get back to Metroid, please.

Does anybody know if Metroid 2 is still worth playing, or should I just wait for that fan remake?

[Flame]

Skinny guys fighting bigass aliens and wielding huge guns does not make sense.

Depends... What do you classify as skinny, and what the limit is.
I could consider an average build "skinny" and then point out Isaac Clarke, who doesnt seem to be all that musclebound as say... GoW folks, Gordon Freeman, and hell, even Samus herself. (though she isnt a guy)

[Bueno Excelente]

Depends... What do you classify as skinny, and what the limit is.
I could consider an average build "skinny" and then point out Isaac Clarke, who doesnt seem to be all that musclebound as say... GoW folks, Gordon Freeman, and hell, even Samus herself. (though she isnt a guy)

Isaac Clarke and Gordon Freeman = Suits that power them up. In the Gears universe, seeing a guy with Final Fantasy proportions wrestle a monster with a chainsaw would look stupid. It's good that they're in a good size compared to their enemies. Gives them the Spartan/Elite rivalry that Halo's got going.

I don't usually see skinny people in action games. Mostly because they don't really have the body to go through all of that crap. But we can see plenty of skinny characters through many other games. Heck, adventure games are filled with skinny guys like Guybrush Threepwood and George Stobbart.

[Flame]

Isaac Clarke and Gordon Freeman = Suits that power them up

You never specified. You said "Skinny guys fighting bigass aliens and wielding huge guns"

And thats what the above mentioned are. It makes sense when you include technology. Such as... Suits, powered armored suits.

[Bueno Excelente]

You never specified. You said "Skinny guys fighting bigass aliens and wielding huge guns"

And thats what the above mentioned are. It makes sense when you include technology. Such as... Suits, powered armored suits.

Yes it does. I never said there could be no exceptions to the rule whatsoever. There always are, in all sorts of fiction.

[Zan]

This is a case of a cosplayer who looks JUST like her. I can also give examples of cosplayers who look BETTER than her. It's not hard. She is not idealized, she's supposed to look normal. Stop spewing bullshit and give concrete examples and reasons.

As for certain types of people fitting certain types of roles, NO [parasitic bomb] SHERLOCK. Of course they have to look the part. But that doesn't mean a fat guy or an ugly guy can't be a main character from a game. Hell, look at Detective Scott Shelby from Heavy Rain. He's fat. He's ugly. He's normal.

He's also a main character.

And when you refer to fat, no, there aren't any games that I can remember with fat women, aside from Fable and Fat Princess. Mostly because it's kinda stupid to have a fat character run and jump in the first place (Mario and Wario are just chubby). In terms of men, I showed examples. In terms of women, it hasn't been that long since women have gained their proper equality in games. Give it time, and we'll have a good standard.

I was referring to all the variations that exist. Especially with women, games will generally only depict extremes, never the intermediates. Either we're stuck with the athletic figures of Jade and Faith, or we get another Fat Princess, or the absolute reverse. Show me everything that exists in between having made its way into games.

As for Faith from Mirror's Edge? YES, she looks like a standard asian woman. No idealization, just a plain, asian woman. Cosplayers trying to portray her?

Are you really unable to see all the little human imperfections that the 3D model just fails to capture? Your Heavy Rain example is about the only one that comes near to displaying realistic skin imperfections.

Skinny guys fighting bigass aliens and wielding huge guns does not make sense.

Everything can be made to make sense in the realm of the imagination that produces games.

[Bueno Excelente]

I was referring to all the variations that exist. Especially with women, games will generally only depict extremes, never the intermediates. Either we're stuck with the athletic figures of Jade and Faith, or we get another Fat Princess, or the absolute reverse. Show me everything that exists in between having made its way into games.

I just showed you a whole bunch of [tornado fang]ing intermediates. No, there are no main character obese women in gaming. Aside from a few tiny expressions, neither on the film media, but we're getting there. And are you seriously implying that athletic women equal the big-breasted bimbos we get in the DOA series? Or the lolis we see in anime games? Or the realistic women we see in adventure games, like Nico Collard or Kate Walker. There are quite a few body types, and plenty of different looks. Many aren't at all extremes. Like I said, stop talking bullshit. You just seem stupid that way.

Are you really unable to see all the little human imperfections that the 3D model just fails to capture? Your Heavy Rain example is about the only one that comes near to displaying realistic skin imperfections.

That is nitpick bullshit and you know it. Graphical models can only go so far, and the cosplayer I showed you was close enough. Stop taking [parasitic bomb] out of your ass.

Everything can be made to make sense in the realm of the imagination that produces games.

Take your head out of your ass. Instead of feeding me bullshit with prettied up phrases, answer to my replies. I gave you a reply, and you picked up the parts you could bullshit around, and replied to them with [parasitic bomb] that doesn't answer anything. You say something completely stupid, and then you're not man enough to admit you made a [tornado fang]ing mistake. I gave you a well-stated, well-built reply. The very least you could do, would be to answer accordingly. But no. You disrespect me, running off with your tail between your legs and carefully wipe out the parts in my replies that you can't answer. You have absolutely no logical way to answer without saying "I'm sorry, I was wrong." So instead of simply admitting your mistake, you bullshit around it, and try to escape from it.


Well I've had it up to here talking with you, shithead. Argument over.

[Kieran]

Jesus [tornado fang]ing Christ.  If I were a moderator I would've locked this thread two pages ago.

[Bueno Excelente]

Let's just get back to the Metroid convo, like I said a few replies ago, okay?

Is that Metroid 2 remake still being made?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqNb8Rv65o8[/youtube]

It looked pretty damn cool from what I've seen. Yo, Nintendo. We want another game like this.