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Tickle Buffalo · **Reply #125 on:** February 15, 2009, 05:01:06 AM

Quote from: Gauntlet101010 on February 15, 2009, 04:35:57 AM

Well, the "facts" as presented aren't 100% accurate, and are giving one heavy bias.

What, you think the citizens of Neo Arcadia are gonna be unbiased when you try to convince them their hero's a fake?

Gauntlet101010 · **Reply #126 on:** February 15, 2009, 05:03:51 AM

Quote from: Tickle Buffalo on February 15, 2009, 05:01:06 AM

What, you think the citizens of Neo Arcadia are gonna be unbiased when you try to convince them their hero's a fake?

If it worked out in the story you wouldn't question it.

Flame · **Reply #127 on:** February 15, 2009, 05:06:53 AM

theres one thing with the "pacifist statement. eventually, his pacifism was replaced with a snse of duty. similar t Zero. he does it because he has to, and doesnt question it. its the whole point behind him finding out he "no longer cared about fighting enemies"

Gauntlet101010 · **Reply #128 on:** February 15, 2009, 05:18:41 AM

Quote from: Flame on February 15, 2009, 05:06:53 AM

theres one thing with the "pacifist statement. eventually, his pacifism was replaced with a snse of duty. similar t Zero. he does it because he has to, and doesnt question it. its the whole point behind him finding out he "no longer cared about fighting enemies"

Well, there you go. You do think it's 100% solid.

I don't. I feel that particular part of the story is driven mostly by game logic and the desire to keep Copy X's identity a secret until the end of Z1 ... I feel it's something we're just not meant to think about as we're playing the game ... in a "don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain" sort of way. After all, there's little side-scrolling action in this sort of scene.

But I don't think it fits. In a story sence. The Zero series has a pretty good story, but this part always drew me right out of the game whenever X showed his shiny butt on the screen. As for X's character ... even if he was weary of fighting, no I must disagree with you, and say that it did not fit. Anyone, world weary or no, would try to clear the air if someone was murdering in their name. And elf-X did help, do it's not like he just let Copy have his way. He died helping the Resistance. He just never spoke up for them.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Tickle Buffalo · **Reply #129 on:** February 15, 2009, 05:31:10 AM

Quote from: Gauntlet101010 on February 15, 2009, 05:03:51 AM

If it worked out in the story you wouldn't question it.

If I had psychic powers, I wouldn't waste them reading the minds of people on Rockman forums. You probably shouldn't either. I'm sure you can find a better use for them.

Flame · **Reply #130 on:** February 15, 2009, 05:34:57 AM

but rockman arguments are what make RPM go round.
they power the generators under RPM.

Gauntlet101010 · **Reply #131 on:** February 15, 2009, 05:56:56 AM

Quote from: Tickle Buffalo on February 15, 2009, 05:31:10 AM

If I had psychic powers, I wouldn't waste them reading the minds of people on Rockman forums. You probably shouldn't either. I'm sure you can find a better use for them.

Not like I'm wrong. If there was a scene where X convinced the world that he was the real X, you wouldn't be arguing that it was impossible.

Tickle Buffalo · **Reply #132 on:** February 15, 2009, 06:29:14 AM

When did I argue that it was impossible? I just thought your plan sucked. If X managed to convince people he was the real X by acting heroically in the games I'd probably find that stupid too.

Am I not allowed to disagree with you without being a fanboy?

Gauntlet101010 · **Reply #133 on:** February 15, 2009, 06:39:35 AM

Fair enough. Although that's exactly how Zero convinces the Resistees in the games.

Flame · **Reply #134 on:** February 15, 2009, 06:52:34 AM

But Zero never "tried" to convince anybody, as he himself was rather unsure. It was his actions that spoke for him. he destroyed a Golem, and once he gained the saber, showed tremendous combat ability that only the legendary red reploid could have. and if that wasn't enough, Ciel had already more or less studied what she could on Zero enough to know that he was the real one.

Gauntlet101010 · **Reply #135 on:** February 15, 2009, 07:06:50 AM

Not really much difference. Zero convinced them through his actions. X could do similar. I mean, (since we're rewriting the Z series here) I'd add in some resentment on the part of the people in Neo Arcadia. Make Copy X a much less beloved leader than we are led to believe. Add Ciel's voice and some official records regarding the "cloning" process. And, assuming there *are* people who worked with the real X in the government, add their voices to the mix too. Signas? I dunno. If that's how Inafune (or whoever) wanted it to work, it's possible for it to work. There's a lot of ways for it to work, if there's a mind to make it work for the story.

Not that I'm saying I'd want him to succeed, mind. I think it's possible, but it's not what I'd nessasarily want in the story (it's not even X's story). So it's besides the point saying he can't succeed. I'm saying that I wanted him to try. It's not like he doesn't help the resistance. He just doesn't try to talk sence into anybody.

Flame · **Reply #136 on:** February 15, 2009, 07:10:59 AM

Id support you, but theres one small difference between Zero and X's situations.
X is dead, and cant come back for his body is the seal over Dark elf.
Zero was revived, and has the resistance and all that.
X, has nothing really, no one looked for him, no one KNEW he was even there, and he didnt try to be found. plus we dont know what capabilities his cyber elf form has exactly. (though Z3 shows he does have tremendous power nonetheless, its not quite shown how he can manifest it. Other than typical forcefeilds and the like.)

Gauntlet101010 · **Reply #137 on:** February 15, 2009, 07:46:38 AM

Quote from: Flame on February 15, 2009, 07:10:59 AM

Id support you, but theres one small difference between Zero and X's situations.
X is dead, and cant come back for his body is the seal over Dark elf.
Zero was revived, and has the resistance and all that.
X, has nothing really, no one looked for him, no one KNEW he was even there, and he didnt try to be found. plus we dont know what capabilities his cyber elf form has exactly. (though Z3 shows he does have tremendous power nonetheless, its not quite shown how he can manifest it. other than typical "energy" or forcefeilds and the like.)

X isn't quite dead until Z3. And he isn't exactly Jacob Marley rattling his chains about either. He's supposed to be powerful. He also has the Resistance. Even if he's in the "Protoman" level of involvement. Plus, he has information-gathering abilities. If we're talking about his powers, if they wanted, they could give him the ability to blow [parasitic bomb] up. Having a physical body is highly overrated.

But I'm really not about him being the star of the Zero series. I'm more nagged by the fact that he never tried to tell anyone that the emporor has no clothes. Especially the 4 generals. And, even if they were supportive of Copy in Z1, you'd think he'd try again in Z2 after Copy died. Copy X being X is the entire point of why he was in power to being with. It'd be nice if X was actually trying to let the truth be known and was simply thwarted rather than him letting it just go on.

Especially in Z1. I mean, think back. He appeared on the computer screen. Later on, he can appear as himself at will. So, why the big mystery at the beginning of the game? Ciel feels guilty about her involvement .... fine. X, however, has a pretender on the throne. I'm bothered by his lack of trying. Because the pretender is on the throne because everyone believs him to be X. And he's doing evil things. X should expose the fraud. It's the simplest solution. Yet he does not even try.

He does, however, die to save the Resistance and lends his support to them.

It's be different if he did try and failed. For all the reasons Tickle mentioned before. Of if he tried and Copy blocked him. Or if he tried and the 4 generals believed the copy was right. Or if he said that Copy was looking for him and he had to hide. He did try to talk Copy X down in Z3. That was nice. But he never actually tried to use reason other than that. And that is what bugs me. Unless there's some magical sourcebook that says one of the scenarios I plucked from the air is along the lines of what they were thinking.

Zan · **Reply #138 on:** February 15, 2009, 11:52:33 AM

I don't think any sourcebooks speak of why X didn't try that. But don't try to rewrite the series, if you did that, there's always a way and Zero wouldn't have enemies to kill. Just Imagine how it'd go in the ZERO series scenario.:

It's the same reason why Ciel never told anyone. Initial believe that Copy-X was a proper replacement of the real X for many years. Neither X, in his new state, or Ciel, who is a young girl, can persuade the people of the world and the four guardians about their leader being a fake. After Copy-X declined, we have a situation where we have people that know of X's secret, people that doubt X, mass media propaganda, and the retirement of all that stand in the way of the utopia Neo Arcadia.

As of ZERO1, some of the Eight Judge Government doubted X's verdict of TK31, but they couldn't speak up, they couldn't doubt their hero X. For regular Repliroids knowing that X was fake would lead to a quicker death, for humans such a thought was simply unthinkable; X is the hero that to this day saves them from Irregulars. For Ciel and the resistance, they are trying to achieve that peaceful solution whilst living their lives protecting themselves from Neo Arcadia.

Add to that the following factor: the world goes into a crisis because they realized they lost their beloved X and would inevitably lead themselves to another Elf Wars by Dark Elf's release. Remember that the Four Guardians are well aware about the seal at Yggdrasil, and Harpuia also assumed power whilst hiding the defeat of X. It was Dr. Vile that revealed X's defeat to the whole world and was voted to be the new leader of Neo Arcadia on April 23.

As for believing in Cyber Elf-X. Ciel even doubted it's existence. For the Big4, who believe their X is a revival of the original, they were so heavily involved they couldn't start believing in Cyber Elf-X until after Copy-X was killed and Dr. Vile assumed power and Phantom was there to confirm the matter.

For X, whose powers are limited, having Omega breaking the boundary between the real world and cyberspace, is rather convenient.

Hypershell · **Reply #139 on:** February 15, 2009, 07:10:21 PM

Quote from: Zan on February 15, 2009, 02:27:22 AM

But I like the other censored words. >.>

Quoted for truth.

Quote from: Flame on February 15, 2009, 05:06:53 AM

theres one thing with the "pacifist statement. eventually, his pacifism was replaced with a snse of duty. similar t Zero. he does it because he has to, and doesnt question it. its the whole point behind him finding out he "no longer cared about fighting enemies"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that bit a slight mistranslation? Supposed to be something more like he didn't care about the enemies he was fighting against? I recall that from earlier discussions.

Zan · **Reply #140 on:** February 15, 2009, 11:45:30 PM

Quote

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that bit a slight mistranslation? Supposed to be something more like he didn't care about the enemies he was fighting against? I recall that from earlier discussions.

I'm not sure what X actually said there, but I think Marshmallow mention it on a MMN topic.

Ramzal · **Reply #141 on:** February 16, 2009, 05:14:06 AM

I'm gonna try something real drastic now.

... ... ...

Elipso was stupid. The set up to X's death was stupid. It was not epic, it's like beating up a guy in a coma. It was bad writing and sub-par planning. Something that Capcom is famed for outside of the Resident evil, Onimusha, and -barely- the DMC series. The set up was a joke at best, slightly above that for a plot of an anime's quality value.

Hypershell · **Reply #142 on:** February 16, 2009, 05:27:02 AM

I just find it funny that anyone EXPECTS the act of stabbing an empty body to be epic. I just don't see that as the goal of the scene, at all. I take it as an (extremely loose) explanation as to how X got disembodied, end of story.

Granted, the closeup of Zero was nice. But I think the expression on his face had more to do with unleashing a power that nearly destroyed the world and all.

Tickle Buffalo · **Reply #143 on:** February 16, 2009, 05:29:55 AM

Quote from: Ramzal on February 16, 2009, 05:14:06 AM

Elipso was stupid. The set up to X's death was stupid. It was not epic, it's like beating up a guy in a coma. It was bad writing and sub-par planning. Something that Capcom is famed for outside of the Resident evil, Onimusha, and -barely- the DMC series. The set up was a joke at best, slightly above that for a plot of an anime's quality value.

What was wrong with it? Or do you just dislike anything that isn't suitably epic?

Actually, wait, no, forget that question. More importantly, did you just suggest that Resident Evil is well written? Because, I mean, damn. Jill sandwiches and [parasitic bomb].

Ramzal · **Reply #144 on:** February 16, 2009, 05:43:02 AM

Quote from: Tickle Buffalo on February 16, 2009, 05:29:55 AM

What was wrong with it? Or do you just dislike anything that isn't suitably highly enjoyable?

It's more of a "stop holding it to such a high regard" thing. I know everyone has their own opinion and standard but come on. "The villain stabs the hero in his sleep while his friend cannot do anything but watch" is not epic. I've read more epic out of the -original- story of Aladdin (No. Not the disney version.) In a wide scale, it could barely be called epic in a grand scale of what has actual story appeal.

Quote

Actually, wait, no, forget that question. More importantly, did you just suggest that Resident Evil is well written? Because, I mean, damn. Jill sandwiches and [parasitic bomb].

Well written by Capcom standards. As in, it has a straight story where fans don't need to fill the gabs in on what happened as they are explained directly about events that take place, as well as showing character development and plottwists that can actually catch someone off guard.

Flame · **Reply #145 on:** February 16, 2009, 05:51:13 AM

well, its not the best it could have been, but its just the very image of X's body being stabbed.
yknow?

Hypershell · **Reply #146 on:** February 16, 2009, 05:53:50 AM

Works a lot better when X proceeds to go nuts and Shining Fingers the enemy's face.

Tickle Buffalo · **Reply #147 on:** February 16, 2009, 05:57:22 AM

Quote from: Ramzal on February 16, 2009, 05:43:02 AM

It's more of a "stop holding it to such a high regard" thing. I know everyone has their own opinion and standard but come on. "The villain stabs the hero in his sleep while his friend cannot do anything but watch" is not epic. I've read more epic out of the -original- story of Aladdin (No. Not the disney version.) In a wide scale, it could barely be called epic in a grand scale of what has actual story appeal.

Hey, I don't care about whether it's epic or not, I was just wondering why you thought it was badly written and planned. Seems like a kinda harsh description.

Flame · **Reply #148 on:** February 16, 2009, 05:58:09 AM

Quote from: Hypershell on February 16, 2009, 05:53:50 AM

Works a lot better when X proceeds to go nuts and Shining Fingers the enemy's face.

It does. it really does.

HyperSonicEXE · **Reply #149 on:** February 16, 2009, 06:06:23 AM

That reminds me; if we DO get an X9 or CM2, I fully expect to have a Shining Hand attack, even if it's as an unlockable secret or something.

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