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Other Things => Gaming => Topic started by: AquaTeamV3 on September 21, 2009, 03:09:42 AM

Title: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: AquaTeamV3 on September 21, 2009, 03:09:42 AM
Just curious, what does your ideal definition of a game's 'Hard Mode' contain?  You can use examples from video games if needed, be it MM or otherwise.

For me, a game's ideal hard mode makes factors like stages and bosses tougher without messing with the player.  I also like them to use some creativity with this as well; adding extra enemies is not enough, there should also be new attacks.  A good example of this would be Megaman X6, in which you notice some differences straight out of the intro stage.  There were also some key boss improvements, like Scaravich getting new purple and orange boulders, the latter of which causes boulders to fall from the sky, which is pretty interesting in it's own right.  Sonic Adventure 2 is another good example.  Even the basic City Escape is made a lot more difficult with changes that keep you on your toes.  The Kirby games are pretty nice at this as well.  KSSU's True Arena and Revenge of King are pretty much excellent challenges for a die-hard fan.

Bad examples IMO include the MM games worked on by Inti.  While they do make the stages and bosses tougher, they also insist on weakening the player, making you take double damage.  This pretty much has the ability to turn stages like Protectos' (ZX) into nightmares in their own right.  The Zero series took away your triple slash and charge shot, which pretty much dropped the fun factor down quite a few notches.  Megaman Legends 2's Very Hard Mode was actually fun, but the fact that zenny was worth less made it that more painstaking, as it very painstaking to upgrade weapons, making the use of a Gameshark zenny cheat very justified.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Acid on September 21, 2009, 03:15:29 AM
Balancing games is always the hardest (!!!) part.

I thought Resident Evil 5 did a good job.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Harruhy on September 21, 2009, 03:16:15 AM
Quotehard
–adjective
8.    vigorous or violent in force; severe: a hard rain; a hard fall.
Quotemode
–noun
2.    a particular type or form of something: Heat is a mode of motion.

Also, I'm expecting someone to post that image with the two girls laughing over easy mode.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Police Girl on September 21, 2009, 03:16:58 AM
I liked KSSU, but only the True Arena was really tough, and only the last 2 Bosses of it were any challenge.

I don't usually like Hard Mode, the way it is implemented in recent games makes Normal mode seem like Hard mode. (I have issues in Doom and Wolfenstein 3D when it comes to 3rd Difficulty Level). :l
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: CephiYumi on September 21, 2009, 03:24:14 AM
It is nice when hard modes have more then jus tweaked stats/more enemies, but I usually suck at harder difficulties anyway<a href="http://students.washington.edu/lzone/easymode233.jpg">.</a> >w<
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: HokutoNoBen on September 21, 2009, 04:31:14 AM
To me, the ideal Hard Mode is one that more or less has a gamer says to his/her gamer: "Alrighty...hopefully that first time through (or more, if you went "Easy" before Normal) gave you a good change to get acquainted with my mechanics. NOW it's time to see if you really got what it takes!" *proceeds to kick your ass in a tough but fair manner*

Viewtiful Joe and God Hand are some of my favorite examples of this style.

On the higher difficulties, the game didn't change THAT much. Enemy/Boss Patterns didn't change that drastically, and neither did level lay-outs. What did change though, was the expectation that you should know how to handle yourself, because now everybody hits harder, everybody is slightly quicker and the CPU certainly knows more of how to work things to its advantage. Will you be able to do the same?  8D


This is perhaps another thing that I'm REALLY hoping Bayonetta will deliver on. DMC3 and 4's higher difficulties didn't really do as much for me as I would have liked.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Night on September 21, 2009, 04:33:37 AM
I haven't played that many games that were considered hard, but megaman zero comes to mind.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Harruhy on September 21, 2009, 04:35:25 AM
They're tough, but after a bunch of tries, you eventually beat it.
That probably goes for a lot of games.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Nekomata on September 21, 2009, 05:07:22 AM
Quote from: Harruhy on September 21, 2009, 03:16:15 AM
Also, I'm expecting someone to post that image with the two girls laughing over easy mode.
stop getting me to do this [parasitic bomb].

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/HitomiNeko/a3f63ef9.jpg)
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Harruhy on September 21, 2009, 05:11:29 AM
Didn't have it saved on this computer. I would have posted it myself if I did.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Keno on September 21, 2009, 05:12:47 AM
Hard modes kind of like normal, except with less health for the player and more health for the enemies. Sometimes, if you're lucky, enemy placement changes.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Bag of Magic Food on September 21, 2009, 06:02:08 AM
Make it harder

but not impossible

That's all
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Protoman Blues on September 21, 2009, 06:15:12 AM
My definition of "Hard Mode" are old school NES games based on Movies.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Da Dood on September 21, 2009, 03:29:13 PM
For me the coolest type of harder mode is when the game plays around with enemy hierarchy, like Devil May Cry and Viewtiful Joe. Enemies in these games are sort of ranked, and you fight tougher and tougher foes as difficulty modes rise up. Exception would be new-school Ninja Gaiden, because some enemy combinations they throw at you are just cheap.

I don't like the way Inti did hard mode in Zero and ZX games, as previously mentioned. I never play them on hard. Their EX Skills and the ranking system are a much more elegant display of skill than taking moves and items away from us.

I did love Inti's Superhero mode in MM9 though. Actually I wish there was an even tougher mode. Superhero is where I play the game normally these days. owo
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Archer on September 21, 2009, 03:33:39 PM
Hard Mode is a mode that is harder then Normal Mode.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Blackhook on September 21, 2009, 03:55:08 PM
Well, I think Max Payne 2 had a good Hard mode, decreasing your amount of saving making you think twice before saving and also the enemies aren´t stupid...they hide when you try to shoot them and their aim get´s better...
Oh yeah, I always think it´s rewarding when you get a different ending of the game when you beat it on hard mode
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Tickle Buffalo on September 21, 2009, 04:23:51 PM
Quote from: Harruhy on September 21, 2009, 03:16:15 AM
Also, I'm expecting someone to post that image with the two girls laughing over easy mode.

They only say that because playing as either of them is hard mode. Because they suck. Seriously Tewi's ex attacks wtf so bad.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Gaia on September 21, 2009, 05:20:51 PM
If I remember correctly, Halo 1,2 and 3 along with the ODST sub-series, have a mode called Legendary that surpasses hard mode in a sense.

Enemies begin to swarm at you, Hunters are more common etc. However, it does provide an excellent challenge.

Quote from: Protoman Blues on September 21, 2009, 06:15:12 AM
My definition of "Hard Mode" are old school NES games based on Movies.

What about those NES gamesbased on various TV series? the ones now are pathetically easy today.  :D
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Align on September 21, 2009, 06:43:45 PM
Not sure. Most recent hard mode that I liked was Commando difficulty in Bionic Commando - the enemies missed less, reacted faster, spawned immediately instead of being delayed (without there actually being more of them total), and generally gave you almost no leeway.
It suited me very well after having played through the game and knowing how to fight every enemy, though I learned a few new tricks even so.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: TAoR on September 22, 2009, 04:32:14 PM
I define Hard Mode as either the first difficulty in a game that can actually kill me, or the first difficulty in a game where I actually have to try to win
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Hypershell on September 23, 2009, 01:15:04 AM
Like Aqua I tend to regard X6 as a good example and Zero/ZX as a bad one.  A challenging game to me is one that remains challenging even when fully equipped.  To me, ZX and ESPECIALLY Zero are not Hard, they're Handicapped.

I don't enjoy knowing that my opponent is pulling any punches either, which is perhaps the one imperfection that haunts me on ZX.  It is not physically possible for a fully powered player to fight a fully powered boss.  That there's a lousy design.

It should also always be realistically possible to not die.  Note that I said possible, not likely, there's a difference.  I'm no stranger to losing lives, but the ability to react should count for something before a life is lost.  MM9 is a bad offender in this category, near the beginning of Splash Woman's stage you're dropped directly into the middle of a 4-spike-wide divider that you cannot see until the screen finishes scrolling and you start falling.  The trap is too wide and thus you cannot realistically evade that if you don't know it's coming, while it's completely skill-less to evade once you do, so the obstacle is senseless.  The helicopter claws fall into this category as well; they drop almost instantly from off-screen with no warning, ever, and are always in the vicinity of spikes.  More often than not you are automatically dead in such a case.  The few areas that do have a chance for survival usually require hop-jumps that, once again, you have no warning of until it's too late.

The latter half of World Circuit S in Punch-Out!!'s Title Defense is another one (an otherwise kickass game, BTW).  It gets to the point where reflexes simply will not cut it and you have to memorize the order of the punches your opponent will throw.  If the only way you can win is to know what's going to happen before it does, then something's wrong.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Keno on September 23, 2009, 04:57:12 AM
That scrolling spike trap in Splash Woman's stage is totally classic Mega Man, though.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Bag of Magic Food on September 23, 2009, 09:55:52 AM
Right, I found these examples all in one game!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/RyanFerneau/sample1.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/RyanFerneau/sample2.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/RyanFerneau/sample3.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/RyanFerneau/sample4.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/RyanFerneau/sample5.png)
Better hit that Carry fast, Meggerman!
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Strider Xhaiden on September 23, 2009, 10:15:17 AM
F-Zero GX, Story Chapter 7, Very Hard Mode.

TOPIC OVER.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Dr. Wily II on September 23, 2009, 04:08:02 PM
Quote from: Bag of Magic Food on September 23, 2009, 09:55:52 AM
Right, I found these examples all in one game!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/RyanFerneau/sample1.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/RyanFerneau/sample2.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/RyanFerneau/sample3.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/RyanFerneau/sample4.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/RyanFerneau/sample5.png)
Better hit that Carry fast, Meggerman!
AH... Rockman World 1... >0<
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: TAoR on September 23, 2009, 05:21:05 PM
Quote from: Robo-Ky Mk. III on September 23, 2009, 10:15:17 AM
F-Zero GX, Story Chapter 7, Very Hard Mode.

TOPIC OVER.

That was controller-breaking hard
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Nekomata on September 23, 2009, 05:28:38 PM
Quote from: Robo-Ky Mk. III on September 23, 2009, 10:15:17 AM
F-Zero GX, Story Chapter 7, Very Hard Mode.

TOPIC OVER.
http://www.dailymotion.com/Maxwell_Adams/video/x3cj5b_story-mode-mission-7_videogames
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: TAoR on September 23, 2009, 06:24:42 PM
Was that on Very Hard mode?
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Nekomata on September 23, 2009, 06:36:08 PM
yes.


http://www.freelanceastronauts.com/view.php?id=379
related
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Satoryu on September 23, 2009, 07:01:31 PM
FZeroGX is far beyond hard mode. It's just not fair. Alone, it took me days to beat Episode 7 on Very Hard.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Fxeni on September 23, 2009, 07:08:29 PM
It's one of those things that you just don't really feel like doing again if you can avoid it.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Satoryu on September 23, 2009, 08:39:25 PM
Ugh, why did you remind me that I did have to beat everything again after the data got wiped?
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Fxeni on September 23, 2009, 09:58:52 PM
It really really sucks that you can't back up the saves of that game through regular means.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Hypershell on September 24, 2009, 12:29:31 AM
Quote from: Sato on September 23, 2009, 07:01:31 PM
FZeroGX is far beyond hard mode. It's just not fair. Alone, it took me days to beat Episode 7 on Very Hard.
Jeez, you're not kidding.  EVERYTHING on GX's Very Hard is insanity.  I crawled my way through all but two or three chapters before I decided to hack for the last of the AX racers.  Though IIRC I did eventually get 7 before that.  It was 8 that was all hell for me.

Quote from: Keno on September 23, 2009, 04:57:12 AM
That scrolling spike trap in Splash Woman's stage is totally classic Mega Man, though.
I've cleared them all and replay 3 more than any NES game in existence, believe me, I'm familiar with classic MegaMan traps.  The actual NES games do not take it to such an extreme.  Dropping you onto a 2-block wide trap is par for the course, you can realistically evade that.  4 is too far.  The previous screen also forces you into the dead-center, so you don't have the benefit of luck-of-the-draw with your fall position either.

I can't comment on Bag's pic as I'm not all that familiar with GB physics and such.  But the bottom of the first pic is the only one that looks exceedingly bad.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Da Dood on September 24, 2009, 12:58:38 AM
There's a ton of places like that Splash Woman fall in early games. At the beginning of Wily1 in MM5 there's a fall where if you pick the right side, the screen will scroll down and you land right on top of about 6 spikes, absolutely no way to tell other than trying and no way to avoid death. The entire second half of Quick Man's stage is totally unfair first time through. If you don't land where the game wants you to land, it's death.

And F-Zero GX is just bull. They really should make 1P racing games like the rollercoaster race in Donkey Kong Country 2. You have to race perfectly to win, but there's no way you'll lose if you race perfectly, unlike those F-Zero games and Mario Kart.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: VixyNyan on September 24, 2009, 01:54:53 AM
Quote from: Bag of Magic Food on September 23, 2009, 09:55:52 AM
Right, I found these examples all in one game!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/RyanFerneau/sample1.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/RyanFerneau/sample2.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/RyanFerneau/sample3.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/RyanFerneau/sample4.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/RyanFerneau/sample5.png)
Better hit that Carry fast, Meggerman!
Quote from: Hypershell on September 24, 2009, 12:29:31 AM
I can't comment on Bag's pic as I'm not all that familiar with GB physics and such.  But the bottom of the first pic is the only one that looks exceedingly bad.

If you have good Carry precision, it's pretty simple.
And the maps are based on many screens pieced together, so it scrolls from one screen to another when you fall down. ^^

Quote from: Vixy on September 21, 2009, 02:41:44 PM
- Rockman World (Part 1 (http://www.justin.tv/clip/9448d019705e3a26), Part 2 (http://www.justin.tv/clip/2cf752d7a8e34bcd), Part 3 (http://www.justin.tv/clip/6e26c907f99d761e))

^ Bags maps are referring to part 2 and 3 of my videos. I picked up those far-distance items on my first try. ^^
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Hypershell on September 24, 2009, 03:03:07 AM
Quote from: Da Dood on September 24, 2009, 12:58:38 AM
The entire second half of Quick Man's stage is totally unfair first time through. If you don't land where the game wants you to land, it's death.
I can't comment on MM5 since 4-6 are a blur in my head.  As for Quick Man, evil yes, but doable.  At least in that case you can see obstacles as they scroll up.  Placing a wide death trap at the bottom of the screen, invisible until the instant before you fall, is another story.  And again, where you fall is luck-of-the-draw, so that's at least SOME chance, which is not the same thing as fixing you where you're screwed if you don't know what's coming, which is what Splash Woman does.

Most such hazardous falls in classic-series also include lots of spikes in the scenery beforehand, effectively warning you to keep your guard up.  The worst fall that I recall in classic-series is Doc Robot Spark Man in MM3, and even that's not so bad if you stay calm.

It's not that MM9 is hard, in fact it's actually quite easy, it's just that it makes the habit of blind-siding you.  Lousy design in my book, not that I don't like the game overall.  I do.  But I don't think it holds a candle to a true NES game without factoring in Endless Attack and ProtoMan Mode.  Even then, 2 and 3 are still superior.

Quoteand Mario Kart.
Depends on which Mario Kart.  Double Dash is dirt-simple.  Wii, on the other hand, is utter lunacy on 150cc.

But you know, I might have even put up with that if a FREAKING PERFECT SCORE was enough to satisfy the unlock conditions.  But it wasn't.  A full F*@#!ing 60 points, which in itself took many replays, and I get a measly B rank.  At that point I consider myself fully justified to hack a constant Star Man and blow through those bastards (hey, I wanted my Dry Bowser).
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Fxeni on September 24, 2009, 03:23:36 AM
I just want to say this:

Screw you Mario Kart Wii and your stupidass item favouring of the worst possible kind I have ever seen in a competitive game. Far far worse than any Super Smash Bros could ever wish to do.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Da Dood on September 24, 2009, 03:38:41 AM
Mario Kart Wii on 150cc and Mirror is just stupid. I played it enough to unlock all characters, but you know, it's that kind of situation where if they'd just make the A.I. a little bit less brutal I'd replay the game every day.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Pringer X on September 24, 2009, 03:45:56 AM
I think a good Hard Mode should have enemies be just slightly stronger, and different attack patterns. If you just fill up the screen with more baddies or instant death traps, then that isn't exactly a good definition of a 'hard mode', just a more bitchy one. I think that in most fighting games, the AI used for difficulty should be sort of emulated with other games. Make their tactics different, make them use different attacks, and don't tie the player's hand behind their back. A truly hard game should allow the player to use their entire armory and STILL provide a challenge without being repetitive as hell.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Keno on September 24, 2009, 11:22:51 AM
Hypershell, play a little gem of a game called Rockman World 5.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Hypershell on September 25, 2009, 12:56:20 AM
I try, but if I have a GB/C MegaMan game other than Xtreme2 on for more than 5 minutes or so, I start to seizure.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Bag of Magic Food on September 25, 2009, 04:26:40 AM
Xtreme 2 was good, but it wasn't THAT good!  It was on par with World 5 at least.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Elpis TK31 on September 25, 2009, 06:39:49 AM
Xtreme2 > World5, but I've never had W5 on cart and that means a big deal to me.

As for Hard mode, you people talk a good game, but have you ever beaten Chaos Legion on Hard?
It is ruthless, and is the only Hard mode clear I am truly proud of.

I love Zero1 Hard mode because it's actually easier than Normal XD
and people say that gimping a weapon is bad, hah.

ZX has the best Hard mode imo, it spices up you're enemies, intensifying the battles and survival of stages while it doesn't remove any of your abilities. I don't see the LE Gauge being locked as crippling, just get hit less >.>

-Elpis
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Strider Xhaiden on September 25, 2009, 03:03:59 PM
Quote from: Elpis TK31 on September 25, 2009, 06:39:49 AM
As for Hard mode, you people talk a good game, but have you ever beaten Chaos Legion on Hard?

I couldn't even clear it on Normal.

That said, I HAVE cleared God Hand on Hard mode, and that includes the "Evil Gene" bonus fight in the arena.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Keno on September 25, 2009, 04:27:23 PM
There's no way in hell constantly wall dash jumping Xtreme 2 is better than RW5. RW5 is so boss you don't even know. 4's boss too. Gotta love actual recoil.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Bag of Magic Food on September 26, 2009, 12:57:25 AM
No, I don't like the recoil!  It makes it harder to figure out the frame-perfect way to make a tool-assisted run when charging up sets you back.  Though I bet managing the timing of the boomerang fist is harder, so I haven't even tried the fifth game with tool assistance yet.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Nekomata on September 26, 2009, 01:41:36 AM
that recoil is sexy~
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: AquaTeamV3 on September 26, 2009, 02:08:43 AM
Quote from: Nekomata on September 26, 2009, 01:41:36 AM
that recoil is sexy~

Indeed.  The best part is launching yourself backwards off of a cliff accidentally when trying to take down some enemy.  Seems a lot more realistic.  Only other MM weapon to do that was the Buster Cannon from MML2.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Tickle Buffalo on September 26, 2009, 02:30:13 AM
Realism. Very important in a game like this.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: HyperSonicEXE on September 26, 2009, 03:06:02 AM
I've become so annoyed with difficulty interrupting my fun that I'm not even sure I can objectively review it, anymore. Furthermore, what's difficult for one person isn't for another.

Then you've got Twilight Princess, which was embarrassingly easy.

I'd point to Super Mario Galaxy and Mega Man 9 for examples of the maximum amounts of difficulty any fun game could have (and if you think that's too easy, A) tough ****, and B) COSMIC LUIGI AND SUPERHERO MODE).
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Hypershell on September 26, 2009, 03:32:15 AM
Quote from: Elpis TK31 on September 25, 2009, 06:39:49 AM
As for Hard mode, you people talk a good game, but have you ever beaten Chaos Legion on Hard?
Never played it.  My champion Hard Mode clear is Act Raiser 2.

Quote from: Elpis TK31 on September 25, 2009, 06:39:49 AM
I don't see the LE Gauge being locked as crippling, just get hit less >.>
It's not crippling, it's annoying, there's a difference.  Hard Mode retains plenty of recovery items, but therein lies the problem, the fact that it's recovery rather than upgrades.  You DO have plenty of life, but it's all in reserves, thus you waste more time between rounds rebuilding them.

If they insist on limiting your health stocks (which granted are pretty damn huge), I, again, would have been much happier had they kept the Life Ups and axed ALL reserves, Item A's and quest Sub Tank included.

Quote from: Keno on September 25, 2009, 04:27:23 PM
constantly wall dash jumping Xtreme 2
You are equipped with the wrong Xtreme.  Auto wall dash jumping was Xtreme1.

Xtreme2 features the single greatest weapon of all time, that being Iris's take on the Ultimate Buster (think OX Overdrive except without mobility limitations).  To say nothing of Zero being the badass he is. 
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: HyperSonicEXE on September 26, 2009, 03:42:01 AM
Quote from: Hypershell on September 26, 2009, 03:32:15 AM
It's not crippling, it's annoying, there's a difference.  Hard Mode retains plenty of recovery items, but therein lies the problem, the fact that it's recovery rather than upgrades.  You DO have plenty of life, but it's all in reserves, thus you waste more time between rounds rebuilding them.

If they insist on limiting your health stocks (which granted are pretty damn huge), I, again, would have been much happier had they kept the Life Ups and axed ALL reserves, Item A's and quest Sub Tank included.
You are equipped with the wrong Xtreme.  Auto wall dash jumping was Xtreme1.

But upgrading invalidates the challenge of beating a Hard Mode, IMO, same problem with DMC.

If you're going to make a Hard Mode, make the challenge comparable; don't let Tiny Tim win with a huge-ass lifebar and getting his head handed to him but still say he beat it, whereas Big Billy used the measly lifebar and never got hit but only gets cred for beating a Little Timmy-level challenge.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Hypershell on September 26, 2009, 04:37:11 AM
Quote from: Aldo on September 26, 2009, 03:42:01 AM
But upgrading invalidates the challenge of beating a Hard Mode, IMO, same problem with DMC.
Well, this is where differing answers to the topic title kick in.  To me, Hard Mode is about more challenging enemies, not a more crippled player.  A truly challenging game should remain challenging even when using its arsenal to its fullest, IMHO.  Again, X6 is my prime example of how to do it, while both Zero and ZX are an example of how not to.

My preferred play style is all-out.  I don't enjoy knowing that my enemy is pulling any punches, but I hate even more being forced to hold back myself.  Thus I do not appreciate any mode which forces such limitations.  I don't believe that Hard should translate to Handicapped.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Protoman Blues on September 26, 2009, 05:11:36 AM
There's hard mode, and then there's Indiana Bart from SNES Bart's Nightmare.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Align on September 26, 2009, 11:45:07 AM
Quote from: Hypershell on September 26, 2009, 03:32:15 AM
Never played it.  My champion Hard Mode clear is Act Raiser 2.
God, that must have been a pain. Game was hard enough without regular imps taking 2 hits.

QuoteYou are equipped with the wrong Xtreme.  Auto wall dash jumping was Xtreme1.
2 had down+jump for dash and one of the most agile airdashes in the series, which I don't remember if X starts with.

QuoteXtreme2 features the single greatest weapon of all time, that being Iris's take on the Ultimate Buster (think OX Overdrive except without mobility limitations).  To say nothing of Zero being the badass he is. 
hold B reciev death ray
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Hypershell on September 26, 2009, 05:06:05 PM
Quote from: Align on September 26, 2009, 11:45:07 AM
2 had down+jump for dash and one of the most agile airdashes in the series, which I don't remember if X starts with.
He doesn't, though Zero does.  X gets ye olde 3-way air dash capsule from Volt Catfish's stage, which is an easy walk-in.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: AquaTeamV3 on September 26, 2009, 05:58:54 PM
Quote from: Hypershell on September 26, 2009, 03:32:15 AM
Never played it.  My champion Hard Mode clear is Act Raiser 2.
It's not crippling, it's annoying, there's a difference.  Hard Mode retains plenty of recovery items, but therein lies the problem, the fact that it's recovery rather than upgrades.  You DO have plenty of life, but it's all in reserves, thus you waste more time between rounds rebuilding them.

The fact that you took double damage only made it worse.  I had to farm items between every mission, which got old FAST!

X8 didn't do too bad of a job of it either.  They slightly shrunk your LE and WE gauge, but that was pretty much it in terms of nerfing.  Bosses using their ultimates at 50% got annoying mainly because of the music change.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Hypershell on September 26, 2009, 07:00:24 PM
Quote from: Aqua on September 26, 2009, 05:58:54 PM
Bosses using their ultimates at 50% got annoying mainly because of the music change.
So incredibly true, especially with how quickly a boss falls to 50%.  The second half tends to last longer due to their ultimate moves involving invulnerability time.  I really wish you could turn that music change off, the normal boss fight music is so much better.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Keno on September 27, 2009, 12:15:39 AM
Quote from: Hypershell on September 26, 2009, 03:32:15 AM
You are equipped with the wrong Xtreme.  Auto wall dash jumping was Xtreme1.
They're still both wonky to me. *Shrugs*

Quote from: Hypershell on September 26, 2009, 03:32:15 AM
Xtreme2 features the single greatest weapon of all time, that being Iris's take on the Ultimate Buster (think OX Overdrive except without mobility limitations).  To say nothing of Zero being the badass he is. 
I'm not that big of a fan of over the top abilities. It detracts from difficulty.

Quote from: Tickle Buffalo on September 26, 2009, 02:30:13 AM
Realism. Very important in a game like this.
It can add a lot. Just look at how not shooting through walls was made to design levels in X5 onward, & let's not forget water physics.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Bag of Magic Food on September 27, 2009, 01:54:47 AM
I don't think of it as shooting through walls; I think of it as shooting around walls.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Jericho on September 27, 2009, 02:17:11 AM
Quote from: Bag of Magic Food on September 27, 2009, 01:54:47 AM
I don't think of it as shooting through walls; I think of it as shooting around walls.

Busters are Gun Katas now? XD
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Tickle Buffalo on September 27, 2009, 02:32:58 AM
Quote from: Keno on September 27, 2009, 12:15:39 AM
It can add a lot. Just look at how not shooting through walls was made to design levels in X5 onward, & let's not forget water physics.

Bullets not passing through walls doesn't add to the game because it's realistic, it adds to the game because it changes the way the game plays. It'd still add just as much if it wasn't realistic.

Physics I'll grant you, yeah.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Keno on September 30, 2009, 04:34:03 AM
Everything we're discussing is both realistic and adds to the gameplay. Recoil, water phsyics, & shooting through walls alike. I don't even know what the argument is anymore.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Tickle Buffalo on September 30, 2009, 05:28:58 AM
My argument is that even if the changes weren't realistic, they'd still add to the game. Whether they're realistic or not doesn't matter.

Though yeah this is pretty boring to talk about we should probably stop.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Keno on October 01, 2009, 07:09:19 PM
So, I've never tried hard mode in X5 to my recollection, but how big do the lifebars actually get? I just gave up for a day on going straight for Sigma as red Zero (because refight level 96 Squid Adler is a poopface), & I can't even imagine how many less pixels my saber could do.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: AquaTeamV3 on October 02, 2009, 12:28:44 AM
The lifebars don't get any larger; they're big enough as is.  That's honestly one of the things that blows me about X5, the re-fights are too daunting.  The bosses themselves aren't even hard, they've just got too much life.  Not to mention that the weakness weapons don't do a lot of damage, and cause the boss to become invulnerable for a rather lengthy amount of time (I'm looking at you Mattrex and Grizzly).
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Keno on October 02, 2009, 07:54:37 AM
Well, Volt Kraken is hard as a refight only because you can't kill him before he slowly bumps into you a bunch.

Seriously though, is that supposed to be one of his battle tactics? Gently bumping his opponent? Does everybody seem to know that you can just kill X & Zero by moving towards them steadily, or does he know the big secret?
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Hypershell on October 02, 2009, 08:39:44 PM
Well, Iris knew, she's just too conflicted to follow through.  >.>
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: AquaTeamV3 on October 03, 2009, 02:36:03 AM
Well, there's always Gate, who bases a large chunk of his offense into doing that.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: Keno on October 04, 2009, 10:09:52 PM
Quote from: Hypershell on October 02, 2009, 08:39:44 PM
Well, Iris knew, she's just too conflicted to follow through.  >.>
She's a cheater with her robo suit anyway. She should've just used Colonel's saber. Would've made more sense.

Quote from: Aqua on October 03, 2009, 02:36:03 AM
Well, there's always Gate, who bases a large chunk of his offense into doing that.
If only he could learn to keep his balls to himself.
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: xemiroth on June 07, 2024, 10:25:25 AM
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Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: xemiroth on August 19, 2024, 08:13:04 AM
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rectifiersubstation (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology (http://satellitehydrology.ru)scarcecommodity (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale (http://spysale.ru)
stungun (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter (http://tailstockcenter.ru)tamecurve (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)
Title: Re: What defines 'Hard Mode'?
Post by: xemiroth on November 16, 2024, 09:18:35 PM
???? (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/3684)279.8 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/176)???? (http://eyesvision.ru/lectures/21)Bett (http://eyesvisions.com)???? (http://factoringfee.ru/t/1246525)???? (http://filmzones.ru/t/1227050)???? (http://gadwall.ru/t/1216700)Jewe (http://gaffertape.ru/t/1104215)???? (http://gageboard.ru/t/1096301)???? (http://gagrule.ru/t/1025312)???? (http://gallduct.ru/t/1163920)Bree (http://galvanometric.ru/t/1483930)Axel (http://gangforeman.ru/t/1431847)Comi (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/1698889)???? (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1369332)Side (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/1084670)???? (http://gascautery.ru/t/1226466)Davi (http://gashbucket.ru/t/1256310)???? (http://gasreturn.ru/t/1241604)???? (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/1243279)???? (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1310711)???? (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/1569327)XVII (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/1241584)
???? (http://geartreating.ru/t/1208401)???? (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/1134912)Made (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/1314114)???? (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/1251280)Wins (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/1485788)???? (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/1248172)Pref (http://getthebounce.ru/t/864139)Jewe (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/1201134)???? (http://habituate.ru/t/1215149)Vija (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/1212668)???? (http://hackworker.ru/t/1381730)???? (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/1104844)Sist (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/1100583)???? (http://hailsquall.ru/t/1229292)Stra (http://hairysphere.ru/t/1130347)???? (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/1241582)???? (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/1246058)Robe (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/1040993)???? (http://haltstate.ru/t/1003614)Seba (http://handcoding.ru/t/1230013)???? (http://handportedhead.ru/t/1565234)???? (http://handradar.ru/t/957021)???? (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/1145111)
Rexo (http://hangonpart.ru/t/1144983)???? (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/1009937)???? (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/815930)Rudo (http://hardasiron.ru/t/834722)???? (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/1009840)???? (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/1050140)???? (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/1044997)Some (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/1246257)Modo (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/1547661)???? (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/1439073)ELEG (http://headregulator.ru/t/1547702)Eleg (http://heartofgold.ru/t/1548085)Tang (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/1201665)Macb (http://heatinggas.ru/t/1547053)???? (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/1183152)???? (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/796324)Yerb (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/852003)???? (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/1376388)???? (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/842163)???? (http://jobstress.ru/t/1195267)5910 (http://jogformation.ru/t/1067409)Rabi (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/1171539)???? (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/1224373)
Alex (http://journallubricator.ru/t/1349009)???? (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/1148386)Sela (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/1181031)Andy (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/1182548)???? (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/1187906)Sela (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/1180691)ELEG (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/1181762)???? (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/836552)Pali (http://kentishglory.ru/t/1187763)Fall (http://kerbweight.ru/t/1189347)XVII (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/1002055)???? (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/833952)Niki (http://keyserum.ru/t/1181563)???? (http://kickplate.ru/t/1470608)???? (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/1375582)Mahl (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/1131659)Well (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/1503108)???? (http://kinozones.ru/film/6132)Wilb (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/1231618)???? (http://kneejoint.ru/t/1256496)Macb (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/1711378)???? (http://knockonatom.ru/t/1231514)???? (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/1243584)
Zone (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/1548918)Wilh (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1373957)Take (http://laborracket.ru/t/1529552)Zone (http://labourearnings.ru/t/1549192)Zone (http://labourleasing.ru/t/1548870)Zone (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/1191253)Zone (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/1189882)Zone (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/1189560)???? (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1306565)Zone (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/1194334)Zone (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/1192627)Zone (http://laggingload.ru/t/1190901)Zone (http://laissezaller.ru/t/1192563)Zone (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/1192642)Zone (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/1194389)???? (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/1351358)Zone (http://lamphouse.ru/t/1185737)???? (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/1185697)Zone (http://lancingdie.ru/t/1187124)Zone (http://landingdoor.ru/t/1189701)Mich (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/1558272)Zone (http://landreform.ru/t/1187575)Zone (http://landuseratio.ru/t/1185929)
???? (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/1212762)??/? (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1160098)???? (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/153735)Sony (http://laserlens.ru)???? (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/589332)???? (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1031091)???? (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/451647)Dolb (http://layabout.ru/shop/99611)Majo (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/100692)???? (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/102989)???? (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/302530)Baby (http://leaveword.ru/shop/145706)4300 (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/107540)?793 (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/269018)Wind (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/146012)???? (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/95763)???? (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/268382)???? (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/159100)???? (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/159354)ARAG (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/613250)???? (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/597522)???? (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/354)Sout (http://mp3lists.ru/item/5868)
Frel (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/172231)???? (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/104347)Kate (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/455751)???? (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/176623)Airb (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/100004)???? (http://navelseed.ru/shop/100578)???? (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/447401)Wind (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/27511)Fear (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/178295)Mist (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/146083)???? (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/108326)Sony (http://observationballoon.ru)Vite (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/98112)???? (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/570375)Pedi (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/17808)???? (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/147557)Robe (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/199836)bibl (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/146945)???? (http://onesticket.ru/shop/378959)???? (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/579382)???? (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/663279)Jewe (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/202877)???? (http://palmberry.ru/shop/204752)
???? (http://papercoating.ru/shop/580569)Bloo (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/684785)???? (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1166070)???? (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1166204)???? (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1165145)???? (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1167876)???? (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1295706)Albe (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/222213)???? (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/593559)???? (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/593635)6/20 (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/913515)Leon (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1070759)???? (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/149708)???? (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/180768)Oldr (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/345696)Sink (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/510161)???? (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/635604)???? (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1075374)Elea (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/173379)???? (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/428797)???? (http://rearchain.ru/shop/357990)Wale (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/513509)???? (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/878898)
???? (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1052234)???? (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1058831)???? (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1671581)???? (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1692453)???? (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1223897)Murm (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/121394)Prem (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1328433)???? (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1045349)???? (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1064842)Film (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1417273)???? (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1457177)???? (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1436942)???? (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1457296)???? (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1492139)Marv (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/178791)???? (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/249389)???? (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/271228)Word (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/41677)???? (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/370140)???? (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/398705)???? (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/410722)Sony (http://spicetrade.ru)Sony (http://spysale.ru)
Sony (http://stungun.ru)???? (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/475694)???? (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/488718)This (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/82610)???? (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/84546)???? (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/485057)???? (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/496933)???? (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1816610)???? (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1856455)???? (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/620362)???? (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/271740)???? (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/398664)???? (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/954623)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)???? (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/974922)???? (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/477137)