Topic: Legend of Zelda - The official Zelda thread

[Mirby]

As I said before.

The Sheep God hath spoken. Obey the Word of Sheep God.

[Bueno Excelente]

Naw, I'm actually exactly the same as I've always been, with the mild inclusion of character name.

I'm about as serious with what I say as I always am.

Which is always serious.

Except when I'm not.

O...kay then.

Anyway, I kinda hate this "Word of God" thing. If these so called "authors" intend for the player to pay any sort of attention to a timeline, they would have made it obvious. They didn't. An author who goes back and says "Oh, this is intended to be this and that way, we just didn't explain it" is kind of stupid. Open endings are open endings, interpretations are interpretations. Nothing the player thinks of this or that is canon, but if they intend to use one canon and for the person who's following the story to recognize it as such, then they should INCLUDE IT IN THE DAMN PRODUCT to begin with.

[Aresian]

O...kay then.

Anyway, I kinda hate this "Word of God" thing. If these so called "authors" intend for the player to pay any sort of attention to a timeline, they would have made it obvious. They didn't. An author who goes back and says "Oh, this is intended to be this and that way, we just didn't explain it" is kind of stupid. Open endings are open endings, interpretations are interpretations. Nothing the player thinks of this or that is canon, but if they intend to use one canon and for the person who's following the story to recognize it as such, then they should INCLUDE IT IN THE DAMN PRODUCT to begin with.

That'd be too easy though 

I like to make people suffer instead... oh wait, we aren't talking about me.

Not sure why writers do what they do. Everyone has a wacky reason for it.

[Bueno Excelente]

That'd be too easy though 

I like to make people suffer instead... oh wait, we aren't talking about me.

Not sure why writers do what they do. Everyone has a wacky reason for it.

Aight, that's it. I'm-a vibrate back in time and make sure you get published with a typing error. >_>

[Zan]

In games like Zelda, you just can't trust Word of God statements. It's either in the game, or it's complete bullshit.

Looks like you just can't get over the fact that you didn't understand Twilight's setting. If you would replay Twilight with Aonuma's statements in mind, it all makes perfect sense; the game was built as a sequel to Ocarina.

[Kieran]

You mean that's not obvious just from looking at it?  I mean, you travel back in time to the Temple of Time from OoT for Christ's sake.

[Bueno Excelente]

Looks like you just can't get over the fact that you didn't understand Twilight's setting. If you would replay Twilight with Aonuma's statements in mind, it all makes perfect sense; the game was built as a sequel to Ocarina.

Whole thing seems to me more like a sort of remake than a sequel, since they were giving the fans what they wanted. A game that's more OOT-like.

You mean that's not obvious just from looking at it?  I mean, you travel back in time to the Temple of Time from OoT for Christ's sake.

Because both temples look so much alike, amirite?

[Solar]

It's not as if the Master Sword has ever stayed in one similar looking place anyways.

[Align]

Anyway, I kinda hate this "Word of God" thing. If these so called "authors" intend for the player to pay any sort of attention to a timeline, they would have made it obvious. They didn't. An author who goes back and says "Oh, this is intended to be this and that way, we just didn't explain it" is kind of stupid.

That's not what normally happens, though.
Word of God is pretty much never a spontaneous announcement from the developer, it's always fans asking "oh but what about this, is it like so" and the dev says yes or no, potentially expounding from there. So it's more like clarifying to those who didn't understand correctly.

[Bueno Excelente]

It's not as if the Master Sword has ever stayed in one similar looking place anyways.

Exactly. And why is that? Because nobody gives a [parasitic bomb] about making similar-looking places to fit any sort of coherent story in-between games.

That's not what normally happens, though.
Word of God is pretty much never a spontaneous announcement from the developer, it's always fans asking "oh but what about this, is it like so" and the dev says yes or no, potentially expounding from there. So it's more like clarifying to those who didn't understand correctly.

No? Sure seems like it to me. If it was just simple clarification for some, other fans would understand it easily, and explain it to those who didn't. If an author has an idea of how the story ends, THEY PUT IT IN THE DAMN STORY. Or make some kind of clear explanation. Or leave it for the sequel. Word of God is one of two things. Making up for bad storytelling, or ass-pulling to shut fans up.

[Solar]

The whole "TP is an OoT sequel" is from WAY before the game was even close to coming out. It's not even relevant to the story at all anyways, what would be the point in putting that statement in it? 

It's their universe anyways, they can do whatever the hell they want with it, "ass-pulls" or not, and the same goes with all other games/stories whether we like it or not.

[Align]

No? Sure seems like it to me. If it was just simple clarification for some, other fans would understand it easily, and explain it to those who didn't.

It's not like every fan is psychically connected and can voice questions/answers to all the other fans. And on top of that, you get epileptic tree theories, which if given a little effort can be just as viable as what the author intended.

If an author has an idea of how the story ends, THEY PUT IT IN THE DAMN STORY. Or make some kind of clear explanation. Or leave it for the sequel. Word of God is one of two things. Making up for bad storytelling, or ass-pulling to shut fans up.

Languages are ambiguous, stories even more so. You can't explain everything exactly without ruining the pacing or using dry, boring language. Misunderstandings are inevitable.
However, most of the time they are not important - I think there's some sort of catchy motto for it, but basically the readers interpretation is just as valid as the authors. They can't clash when you can't ask the authors directly, which is how it used to be in the olden days before the internet and forums.

[Solar]

Also, I feel the need to repeat this.

It's just a [tornado fang]ing order that at most is only relevant for the game's setting, it's not an epic story that take place across generations, it's just a freaking order.

[Bueno Excelente]

It's not like every fan is psychically connected and can voice questions/answers to all the other fans.

Internets, son. If you can hear about Word of God, you can talk to other fans.

Languages are ambiguous, stories even more so. You can't explain everything exactly without ruining the pacing or using dry, boring language. Misunderstandings are inevitable.
However, most of the time they are not important - I think there's some sort of catchy motto for it, but basically the readers interpretation is just as valid as the authors. They can't clash when you can't ask the authors directly, which is how it used to be in the olden days before the internet and forums.

That's why open endings deserve to be open endings and open interpretation deserves to be open interpretation. Because the author has no business going back and saying "NO WAIT THIS IS WHAT I MEANT BY THAT".

[Zan]

Whole thing seems to me more like a sort of remake than a sequel, since they were giving the fans what they wanted. A game that's more OOT-like.

Because both temples look so much alike, amirite? lolwut

They don't look alike yet you consider it more of a remake?... That's quite the contradiction there.

Really, the game just tries to be a similar experience to Ocarina by being its direct sequel, that's all. Naturally they would remake the world to be more vast, similar yet different, new yet nostalgic. All of this is made entirely clear in the plot by reintroducing us to the Ganondorf of Ocarina.

It's just a [tornado fang]ing order that at most is only relevant for the game's setting, it's not an epic story that take place across generations, it's just a freaking order.

Right now, we're restricting the discussion to just Twilight's Ocarina roots, knowledge of which is required to understand certain details of Twilight's plot, such as the Triforce, Ganondorf and the Master Sword.

[Align]

Internets, son. If you can hear about Word of God, you can talk to other fans.

Doesn't mean everyone will bring up their interpretation and want to discuss it. Word of God gets much more attention and spread anyway due to the source.
EDIT: ...But probably more relevant, few suspect that their interpretation might not be correct, so it's never even considered.

That's why open endings deserve to be open endings and open interpretation deserves to be open interpretation. Because the author has no business going back and saying "NO WAIT THIS IS WHAT I MEANT BY THAT".

They're not always meant to be open though. An author that intended for something to be vague (rather than being restricted by language or some such) wouldn't state his interpretation as the only right one.

[Bueno Excelente]

They don't look alike yet you consider it more of a remake?... That's quite the contradiction there.

I didn't say I considered it a remake. I said I considered it "more of a remake". Twilight Princess tries to have the same structure and atmosphere as Ocarina, to the point of having the same races and even an Epona. The fans wanted another OOT, they gave people another OOT.

[Hypershell]

I don't doubt that some semblance of a timeline exists in Nintendo's minds, but I do think that they consider it something of a low priority.  And even if they are not willing to rewrite the order of the games; they are willing, and have, rewritten the various minor details which connect them.  They push the inherent sketchiness of history to its limits in order to tell the story that they want to tell with each game.  I mean, we could be here all day trying to figure out what in the hell all LttP details of the sealing war are supposed to refer to.  Even if we time-travel back to N64 days when we had 5 or so games to worry about, there are plenty of minor inconsistencies and a mountain of ambiguous points which can be brought against a direct OoT-to-LttP connection.  I'm certain that there is an intended game order, but I'm equally certain that Big N doesn't think much of altering a few details in order to make things fit.  Ganondorf himself is possibly the biggest example of this: As of OoT we had reason to believe in only one Ganon across all games.  These days, OoT's Ganon is apparently dead in both forks, while FSA establishes another origin of Ganon.

Because both temples look so much alike, amirite?

Similar enough, I'd say.  The Temple of Time is an extremely simple layout; TP keeps the basic setup and simply adds staircases.  The "dungeon" of the Temple of Time is accessed through a separate portal in the Master Sword's room, if you recall, so I don't think that really counts.

As said earlier, compare all locations of the Master Sword.  Particularly Wind Waker's, since it branches from the same point as TP.

There's a myraid of OoT-to-TP references.  The possession of the Triforce parts and the six Sages for starters, in addition to CONSTANT references of a previous hero, who had both green and Zora tunics.

[Bueno Excelente]

Slight references ain't no continuity. Nintendo still doesn't give a crap about that one.

[Hypershell]

Naturally.  But I was talking about what I believe to be story-relevant, not the thematic references.  We'd be here all day with those.

[Zan]

I mean, we could be here all day trying to figure out what in the hell all LttP details of the sealing war are supposed to refer to.  Even if we time-travel back to N64 days when we had 5 or so games to worry about, there are plenty of minor inconsistencies and a mountain of ambiguous points which can be brought against a direct OoT-to-LttP connection.

Practically all continuity issues in the Zelda-series stem from plot of LttP and the NES games. They don't even fit comfortably with each other, let alone trying to connect it to all the new titles.

I mean, without the classic titles, we could all happily accept the 3D titles and Four Sword as separate continuities and we'd have no plotholes bigger than Vaati not exactly being sealed in the Four Sword in his origin title. However, as things are right now, all roads lead to LttP, but the bridge is out and will never ever be repaired.

[Mirby]

...but the bridge is out and will never ever be repaired.

Not even if we get the carpenters? D:

[Kieran]

Because both temples look so much alike, amirite?

The dungeon entrance IS the Temple of Time from Ocarina.  Putting the Master Sword in the pedestal opens up the rest of the place.

And it makes sense that the Temple of Time was a dungeon like the rest of the temples in Ocarina, just one that OoT Link never got to explore beyond the first room.

[Bueno Excelente]

And it makes sense that the Temple of Time was a dungeon like the rest of the temples in Ocarina, just one that OoT Link never got to explore beyond the first room.

Why would it make sense? And why does one Link get to explore it, while the other doesn't?

Allow me to explain:

"Hey, let's make a new Temple of Time. Only now, it's a cool dungeon."

"Hey, that's rad. Yeah, let's put it in there."

It's in there because IT'S COOL. And it's in a completely different location and looks different because whatever, it's [tornado fang]ing cool, it fits the game.

[Hypershell]

And why does one Link get to explore it, while the other doesn't?

Because no Sage resided there and no obstacles to said Sages involved the Dominion Rod?

That's like asking why TP Link doesn't get to use the Temple of Time to return to his childhood.  It's a simple matter of circumstance.  The Master Sword is what's responsible in both cases.  And it's already well established that the reality-warping effects of your various Hyrulian artifacts may vary depending on what task the current era's Hero is charged with.  It's not as if Link could use the Ocarina of Time to warp back a few days during his journey to defeat Ganon.

Practically all continuity issues in the Zelda-series stem from plot of LttP and the NES games. They don't even fit comfortably with each other, let alone trying to connect it to all the new titles.

I mean, without the classic titles, we could all happily accept the 3D titles and Four Sword as separate continuities and we'd have no plotholes bigger than Vaati not exactly being sealed in the Four Sword in his origin title. However, as things are right now, all roads lead to LttP, but the bridge is out and will never ever be repaired.

At current the Master Sword and Triforce are about the only things mandating a link between LttP and the OoT branches.  Most story points these days may be linked to the Vaati arc, particularly Ganon himself, seeings how OoT Ganon is likely dead in both forks and FSA provides the origin of trident-wielding Ganon.  There are minor hiccups along the way, such as the ambiguity of Minish Cap's "Light Force", but we had comparable issues when it was just LttP-to-OoT.

The biggest problem, as I see it, lies with the original NES game.  Ever since the notion first came about that we start at OoT and end at LttP, the original LoZ has left us with one more Ganon death than we can account for, and no effort has been made to address that; unless we're left to simply assume that LttP's Ganon had escaped the seal prior, was killed, revived, and sealed again.  Overall, the original game's backstory has remained very self-contained, with no other title proving itself relevant to its setup.