Topic: Legend of Zelda - The official Zelda thread

[Hypershell]

Hostilities in Twilight Princess with the Gorons are less a matter of "enemies" and more a matter of reclusive people not wanting to let the outside world know when they have a problem.

[Bueno Excelente]

For good reason!

They're good natured people! Who would want to slay them? Inhuman criminals. That's who!

Like meeeeee!

[Zan]

I promised myself never to waste a single thought on continuity or timeline matters. It's meaningless and doesn't affect gameplay at all.

Naturally the story is meaningless if all you care about is the gameplay. But part of the Zelda experience is still the magical setting and the plot that unfolds within the game. You simply need that for the gameplay itself to acquire additional meaning. Just enjoy the story, enjoy the connections to other games, but don't stress one self with connecting dots when there are none.

Not to mention Zelda's continuity is constantly rewritten.

You know, as much as I'd like to fault Nintendo for this, I blame mostly the fanbase. They're throwing around claims of "retcon" and "non-canon" all over the place as if there's no established continuity whatsoever to then vehemently cling to minute details in order to enforce a backwards interpretation.

Personally, if I were to establish a timeline in the Zelda continuity, I'd start splitting it in three.
-From Ocarina, go with the time travel shenanigans to on one end have Majora and Twilight and on the other end have Wind Waker and its DS sequels.
-The Four Sword story in its own trilogy.
-The classical titles in a mostly garbled mess that can go in any order.

Interconnecting these three is somehow everything leading to LttP in matters that hurt the brain.

[Bueno Excelente]

Naturally the story is meaningless if all you care about is the gameplay. But part of the Zelda experience is still the magical setting and the plot that unfolds within the game. You simply need that for the gameplay itself to acquire additional meaning. Just enjoy the story, enjoy the connections to other games, but don't stress one self with connecting dots when there are none.

This is just about continuity and timeline in-between games, not relevant to the story of each one.

You know, as much as I'd like to fault Nintendo for this, I blame mostly the fanbase. They're throwing around claims of "retcon" and "non-canon" all over the place as if there's no established continuity whatsoever to then vehemently cling to minute details in order to enforce a backwards interpretation.

Personally, if I were to establish a timeline in the Zelda continuity, I'd start splitting it in three.
-From Ocarina, go with the time travel shenanigans to on one end have Majora and Twilight and on the other end have Wind Waker and its DS sequels.
-The Four Sword story in its own trilogy.
-The classical titles in a mostly garbled mess that can go in any order.

Interconnecting these three is somehow everything leading to LttP in matters that hurt the brain.

And there IS no established continuity whatsoever. The only games we know that have continuity, are Ocarina of Time-Majora's Mask-Wind Waker-Phantom Hourglass-Spirit Tracks. Those are the only ones that connect between one another in any kind of coherent way. Then there's the Four Swords/Adventures/Minish Cap trilogy which have the Vaati story. Other than that, Zelda II was a sequel to the first game, but that's it. Those are the only games that have some sort of set continuity between them.

[Zan]

This is just about continuity and timeline in-between games, not relevant to the story of each one.

But the setting and story of each title is influenced by how Nintendo perceives its placement in the continuity. The moment these connections are made, the Zelda experience is greatly enriched. There is an actual continuity, and Nintendo is making an effort to uphold it, it's just that one shouldn't overthink the connections with the older and more obscure titles. Like actually connecting anything to LttP and the NES titles is overdoing it. But all the 3d games are connected with little to no problems.

Ocarina of Time-Majora's Mask-Wind Waker-Phantom Hourglass-Spirit Tracks. Those are the only ones that connect between one another in any kind of coherent way.

Actually, all of the 3d games thusfar have an established continuity. Ocarina of Time also connects to Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess, after all. It's just connected in a different way than the Wind Waker does. This has been extensively made clear by Nintendo, explaining the specifics in regards to Ocarina having two endings; adult and child timelines. Wind Waker is the adult timeline in which Ganon got sealed in the Sacred Realm by the sages, Majora and Twilight are the child timeline in which the Sacred Realm was never opened.

[Bueno Excelente]

But the setting and story of each title is influenced by how Nintendo perceives its placement in the continuity. The moment these connections are made, the Zelda experience is greatly enriched. There is an actual continuity, and Nintendo is making an effort to uphold it, it's just that one shouldn't overthink the connections with the older and more obscure titles. Like actually connecting anything to LttP and the NES titles is overdoing it. But all the 3d games are connected with little to no problems.

Actually, all of the 3d games thusfar have an established continuity. Ocarina of Time also connects to Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess, after all. It's just connected in a different way than the Wind Waker does. This has been extensively made clear by Nintendo, explaining the specifics in regards to Ocarina having two endings; adult and child timelines. Wind Waker is the adult timeline in which Ganon got sealed in the Sacred Realm by the sages, Majora and Twilight are the child timeline in which the Sacred Realm was never opened.

Twilight Princess, aside from the similarities to OOT, doesn't really seem like it's connected to anything in the first place. The continuity of the 3D games seems well done, but when they referred to that two timelines thing from which several timeline-concerning games come from, since pretty much no mention is made of it at all in the games, I'm calling it an ass-pull.  And aside from a few small connections, each game has a fully independent story with shared concept, characters, items and enemies. I just look at each Zelda game as a new experience instead of a big timeline. Makes it more enjoyable than to go looking for sequel facts where they aren't intended to be seen.

[Zan]

Twilight Princess, aside from the similarities to OOT, doesn't really seem like it's connected to anything in the first place.

Personally, when I went through the story of that game, I felt its premise worked entirely with what Aonuma stated. When you add Majora's Mask to that, it works out even better.

Interviewer: When does Twilight Princess take place? Eiji Aonuma: In the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years later. Interviewer: And The Wind Waker? Aonuma: The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember? Twilight Princess takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years after the peace returned to kid Link’s time. In the last scene of Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk, and as a consequence of that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there's a scene showing Ganon's execution. It was decided that Ganon be executed because he'd do something outrageous if they left him be. That scene takes place several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and now he wants to obtain the power...

[Mirby]

The only true connections are Ocarina of Time-Majora's Mask, Wind Waker-Phantom Hourglass-Spirit Tracks, The Legend of Zelda-The Adventure of Link, and Oracle of Seasons<->Oracle of Ages (these can happen in either direction). Because of the possibility of branching, WW cannot come after MM.

Sure, there may be things that connect the games in other ways, but there is no SET continuity aside from the ones I've listed. Minish Cap probably comes before OoT, but then there's the matter of Vaati, which brings up the possibility of branching paths. And then there's the questions. Are the Seven Sages in LttP the same ones from OoT? The towns in AoL are named after the Sages, so that means it takes place after OoT, but when? Is the raft shown at the end of the Oracle series the same one that wrecks in LA?

There is no official continuity to the Zelda series to connect all the games, nor will there be. Unlike other series, like Mega Man for example (as Zan knows all to well) there are no dates to connect them. One may be able to string together a rough timeline with uncertain dates, but nothing really sensible will work. Not to mention all the opposing arguments and timelines that could be created.

There is no way to create a cohesive timeline that has no branches, nor is there a way to create one containing all games.

[Bueno Excelente]

Personally, when I went through the story of that game, I felt its premise worked entirely with what Aonuma stated. When you add Majora's Mask to that, it works out even better.

Aonuma: The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember? Twilight Princess takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years after the peace returned to kid Link’s time. In the last scene of Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk, and as a consequence of that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there's a scene showing Ganon's execution. It was decided that Ganon be executed because he'd do something outrageous if they left him be. That scene takes place several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and now he wants to obtain the power...

If continuity was truly a concern, they'd make more references. When playing the game, there's absolutely no continuity between them, except for "oh, this MIGHT fit here, IF this happened this way". It's an ass-pull. Continuity in Zelda is a non-issue, because in most cases, there isn't the direct concern of one.

Because of the possibility of branching, WW cannot come after MM.

Why not? In WW, it's told that the Hero of Time dissapeared and didn't show up again when evil returned to Hyrule. In Majora's Mask, Link goes on a journey, far from Hyrule. We never know if he returned or not. So it pretty much works out.

[Mirby]

Well not directly after, naturally. And not with times. And if you do that, then where does it go? It's explicitly stated that the legends of the old Hyrule were lost. If it came after MM, it would have to be the last entry. After all, the towns in AoL were named after the Sages... It gets pretty confusing when you think about how one game's placement could affect the others, and how the others prevent it from going there...

[Zan]

When playing the game, there's absolutely no continuity between them, except for "oh, this MIGHT fit here, IF this happened this way". It's an ass-pull.

I thought Ganon's entire backstory in Twilight more than enough established continuity toward Ocarina and favored the intended time travel shenanigans. Particularly the details behind the Triforce and the existence of the Temple of Time.

The only true connections are Ocarina of Time-Majora's Mask, Wind Waker-Phantom Hourglass-Spirit Tracks, The Legend of Zelda-The Adventure of Link, and Oracle of Seasons<->Oracle of Ages (these can happen in either direction). Because of the possibility of branching, WW cannot come after MM.

As quoted in my previous post, the possibility of branching is entirely confirmed, OoT>MM>TP, parallel to OoT>WW>PH>ST.

I wouldn't say those are the only "true connections", either. For one, the Four Sword games as a trilogy of MC>FS>FSA is undeniable.

Furthermore, there's the more obscure, but definitely confirmed, LttP>LA. Stated here:
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n02/dmg/azlj/sutori.html

Finally, OoT was said many times to be before LttP and the NES titles. It's just the way this connection works out, and the way the everything else connects to everything else that ends up giving people headaches.

[Bueno Excelente]

Well not directly after, naturally. And not with times. And if you do that, then where does it go? It's explicitly stated that the legends of the old Hyrule were lost. If it came after MM, it would have to be the last entry. After all, the towns in AoL were named after the Sages... It gets pretty confusing when you think about how one game's placement could affect the others, and how the others prevent it from going there...

As I said, people making the game don't care much about making continuity. They just want to provide a good experience, independent from all the other games.

I thought Ganon's entire backstory in Twilight more than enough established continuity toward Ocarina and favored the intended time travel shenanigans. Particularly the details behind the Triforce and the existence of the Temple of Time.

And then stuff like world map inconsistensies, the new location of the Master Sword, the fact that other than a few tiny similarities, the whole world is very, very different, and that it's basically a new Ocarina of Time, like fans requested. They didn't give a damn about continuity here. They might have put this or that reference, but if they gave a single damn about any proper continuity, they would have shown it in a more obvious way.

[Mirby]

Exactly my point. The game makers DON'T care about the continuity (unless it's a direct sequel in the same land, which hasn't happened yet), so there isn't a timeline to show that. Same with the different locations. Because of all of that, a timeline can't be made that is concise, coherent and correct. Only one that is false and fanon.

[Zan]

And then stuff like world map inconsistensies, the new location of the Master Sword, the fact that other than a few tiny similarities, the whole world is very, very different, and that it's basically a new Ocarina of Time, like fans requested.

More than a century has passed since Ocarina of Time, factor in the fact that game design demands you make it different, of course the entire world map has its differences from Ocarina. Even Four Sword Adventures changes the world map completely, and that's the same Link in the same place as Four Swords.

[Bueno Excelente]

More than a century has passed since Ocarina of Time, factor in the fact that game design demands you make it different, of course the entire world map has its differences from Ocarina. Even Four Sword Adventures changes the world map completely, and that's the same Link in the same place as Four Swords.

Not just the differences. Aside from some positions, it's a completely different world. Few centuries don't change the landscape so much.

[Saber]

Why are people still trying to piece together the Zelda games into a continuity/timeline? What good will come from that? Nintendo doesn't care about continuity. The only first party Nintendo franchise with a clear cut continuity that works is Metroid, and they keep expanding that one with mid-quels. Mario doesn't have continuity, and Star Fox is screwed up as well post-64. Zelda on the other hand doesn't need any continuity aside from the established stuff (Ocarina of Time (kid) -> Majora's Mask; Ocarina of Time (adult) -> Wind Waker -> Phantom Hourclass -> Spirit Tracks; Zelda I -> Zelda II).

[Zan]

Why are people still trying to piece together the Zelda games into a continuity/timeline? What good will come from that? Nintendo doesn't care about continuity.

That kind of talk is nothing but turning a blind eye to what is actually established. As I said in my previous posts, a great deal of games are connected in order as undeniable fact and they continue to be produced with continuity in mind. Spirit Tracks is proof positive that Nintendo DOES care.

Yes, you listed some games that have a clear continuity, but that's only a fraction of it; there's more than that. Really, when it comes to Zelda's continuity, it's simply a manner of sticking to the facts (as in ANY canon). Just don't try to connect titles of ambiguous nature with rampant theorizing in the gaps. But apparently the Zelda community is so fond of this that Zelda has gotten this bad name of having no continuity at all. Which is as much a false claim as the supposed infinite plotholes that exist in the MegaMan story; the fanbase is apparently incapable of keeping their facts straight.

Not just the differences. Aside from some positions, it's a completely different world. Few centuries don't change the landscape so much.

Game design is really the biggest factor to this. And it's not just Zelda. Metroid and Rockman have the exact same issues with revisited environments being completely different in unbelievable timespans. Let alone Castlevania which actually tries to make a plot excuse for this phenomenon.

As I said, people making the game don't care much about making continuity. They just want to provide a good experience, independent from all the other games.

Nintendo may have priorities, but that doesn't mean they complete and utterly do not care about continuity. All it does is provide a reason for the occasional unclear ingame references of their intended premise, as in your Twilight examples.

[Mirby]

This doesn't change the fact that there's no official timeline from Nintendo, nor will there ever be at the rate things are going.

At least, on paper.

[Bueno Excelente]

That kind of talk is nothing but turning a blind eye to what is actually established. As I said in my previous posts, a great deal of games are connected in order as undeniable fact and they continue to be produced with continuity in mind. Spirit Tracks is proof positive that Nintendo DOES care.

Yes, you listed some games that have a clear continuity, but that's only a fraction of it; there's more than that. Really, when it comes to Zelda's continuity, it's simply a manner of sticking to the facts (as in ANY canon). Just don't try to connect titles of ambiguous nature with rampant theorizing in the gaps. But apparently the Zelda community is so fond of this that Zelda has gotten this bad name of having no continuity at all. Which is as much a false claim as the supposed infinite plotholes that exist in the MegaMan story; the fanbase is apparently incapable of keeping their facts straight.

Game design is really the biggest factor to this. And it's not just Zelda. Metroid and Rockman have the exact same issues with revisited environments being completely different in unbelievable timespans. Let alone Castlevania which actually tries to make a plot excuse for this phenomenon.

Nintendo may have priorities, but that doesn't mean they complete and utterly do not care about continuity. All it does is provide a reason for the occasional unclear ingame references of their intended premise, as in your Twilight examples.

In some games, like Spirit Tracks, they define some continuity. In others, like Twilight Princess, they don't.

But it's just a few elements that go on. The rest, is all completely new, without any bother to any kind of continuity, and with a whole new world and characters.

Nintendo doesn't give a [parasitic bomb] about PROPER continuity. They linked some games in order to offer some nostalgia factor and so players can remember those experiences. But they're really not interested in offering any sort of sequel. Everything is always new.

[Solar]

In others, like Twilight Princess, they don't.

You mean besides Word of God?

This doesn't change the fact that there's no official timeline from Nintendo, nor will there ever be at the rate things are going.

Wasn't there an interview with Miyamato or Iwata or someone else saying that they do have one?

[Mirby]

I've never seen or heard of that interview.

I'd think that the Zelda forum I'm on would've mentioned that. And I was in an argument with someone about this earlier this year; no mention of that interview there. So unless it was within the last three months... I don't think it exists..

[Solar]

Closest things I found with a quick google search...

http://gannon-banned.com/#timeline

And to try to end this timeline discussion, if we go by Word of God then the facts about the timeline assumind they haven't retconned things yet would be:

MC->FS->FSA->the rest

OoT->Zelda 1->AoL->LttP->LA

OoT->MM->TP
      ->WW->PH->ST

SS->OoT

OoA<->OoS

Everything else (unless I'm forgetting something) is just speculation/fanon. If you don't care about the timeline, fine, don't care, just don't complain about those who do and enjoy discussing it (@ no one specificly).

[Mirby]

I think LttP comes before the originals, considering the name (A Link to the Past, indicating the events are from the past of the originals), but the rest looks good.

Superplay: How do the Zelda games timelines link together? Is there any connection between the different games, or do you take tell us a new Zelda story each time?

Shigeru Miyamoto: For every Zelda game we tell a new story, but we actually have an enormous document that explains how the game relates to the others, and bind them together. But to be honest, they are not that important to us. We care more about developing the game system... give the player new challenges for every chapter that is born.

Superplay: Will the story always come 2nd when you develop games?

Shigeru Miyamoto: The most important thing for me, is that the player get sucked into the game. I want the games to be easy to understand, and that the people appreciate the games content, its core. I will never deny the importance of a great story, but the plot should never get that important that it becomes unclear.

There's the specific line. And the second question there I felt was relevant as well.

[Solar]

I think LttP comes before the originals, considering the name (A Link to the Past, indicating the events are from the past of the originals), but the rest looks good.

The OoT->Zelda 1 and 2->LttP comes right from Miyamoto's mouth actually.

And yeah, that second line is a good quote. What's important is that people enjoy the games themselves, the whole story and timeline thing is not as important and just there for the people that care about it.

[Mirby]

Well I did not know that. Regardless, the pun remains. A "Link" to the past, see?