Legend of Zelda - The official Zelda thread

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Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #675 on: June 20, 2010, 12:20:11 AM
Personally, I thought he was always kinda stubby. Never really appeared well-toned or anything.
But he's always been a bit skinny. Here, he just seems... well, a bit badly formed in terms of body.



Offline Satoryu

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Reply #676 on: June 20, 2010, 12:47:58 AM
It's the baggy pants that make him look funny.


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Reply #677 on: June 20, 2010, 03:58:23 AM
I noticed that.  The art style seems to be encouraging pillow-shading.  Hopefully they will fine-tune it a bit.  And who knows whether or not it even holds for when you leave the clouds?  We really don't know enough about this game yet.

There's tons of good stories out there.
I'm sure there are.  When I gauge "story", though, I tend to look at how likable the characters in themselves are before I look at what situations they're placed in, though.  I'm the same with visuals; characters before environments (this is why I actually find MHX to look rather ugly; the environments are gorgeous but the character models are hideous).

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Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #678 on: June 20, 2010, 04:20:42 AM
I noticed that.  The art style seems to be encouraging pillow-shading.  Hopefully they will fine-tune it a bit.  And who knows whether or not it even holds for when you leave the clouds?  We really don't know enough about this game yet.
I'm sure there are.  When I gauge "story", though, I tend to look at how likable the characters in themselves are before I look at what situations they're placed in, though.  I'm the same with visuals; characters before environments (this is why I actually find MHX to look rather ugly; the environments are gorgeous but the character models are hideous).
Why are the characters more important than the plot in a "story" to you? Just kinda confused here.



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Reply #679 on: June 20, 2010, 05:29:15 AM
Why are the characters more important than the plot in a "story" to you? Just kinda confused here.

Pretty simple process. If the characters don't matter, if they aren't important/likable/interesting/relate able and so forth, then it is very easy to lose interest in the game or the characters or what happens to them.

A plot can rarely carry its self, dynamic characters are important as well.

Based on the kind of stuff you like, Legends will be a bit too "light" for your taste. You're a tad too "hardcore" for that kind of thing, honestly. But it's definitely the diamond in the rough when it comes to stories with Capcom. Command Missions is also decent, but doesn't compare.

Also, gotta say. KOTOR 2's story was superior to KOTOR 1. Let the flames begin.



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Reply #680 on: June 20, 2010, 06:27:24 AM
 :cookie:

Troll House took the words out of my mouth, I couldn't have said it better myself (all except the KOTOR stuff; I don't know a damn thing about that).

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Offline HokutoNoBen

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Reply #681 on: June 20, 2010, 06:45:19 AM
Also, gotta say. KOTOR 2's story was superior to KOTOR 1. Let the flames begin.

Won't fight you there, either. If LA didn't pull the superdickery they did in order to rush out KOTOR2 for the holidays, EVERYTHING about the game would've been better than its predecessor. Too bad...



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #682 on: June 20, 2010, 06:46:50 AM
Personally, I care not for stories in my games.  Take Zelda, for example.

LINK, PRINCESS ZELDA IN DANGER.  GO. SAVE.

I'm sold!



Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #683 on: June 20, 2010, 06:47:59 AM
Pretty simple process. If the characters don't matter, if they aren't important/likable/interesting/relate able and so forth, then it is very easy to lose interest in the game or the characters or what happens to them.

A plot can rarely carry its self, dynamic characters are important as well.

Based on the kind of stuff you like, Legends will be a bit too "light" for your taste. You're a tad too "hardcore" for that kind of thing, honestly. But it's definitely the diamond in the rough when it comes to stories with Capcom. Command Missions is also decent, but doesn't compare.

Also, gotta say. KOTOR 2's story was superior to KOTOR 1. Let the flames begin.
Interesting. Funnily enough, I see stories praised and worshipped, even though when there are silent protagonists. Hell, even when stories have... no characters, should we say? Like in Flower. Interestingly enough, characters really are completely irrelevant sometimes. because characters change with the flow of a story. Character development, they call it. Look at Batman's Damian. KOTOR's Bastilla. They start off as snotty little [sonic slicer] characters, and end up as some of the best and most developed characters in their own stories. The plot is what matters, because it's what BUILDS the character. A character is never really stuck to a single characterization of a story is any good. They grow throughout the story, they interact with what's happening, and that's what makes them good. Put any unlikeable bastard in a challenging plot, and I assure you the character will come out different from the other side. Changed and grown-up. I love to hate a certain character in a well-developed tale. Because you never know what you're gonna get.

I'm not too hardcore for simple stories. Zelda: Link's Awakening had a simple story, yet a tragic development. I liked the way it flowed and ended. Oddworld games also have simple stories, but awesome execution. Yakuza, for example. It thrives on its simplicity, but the way it does it so well is what makes it enjoyable. I'll like it as long as it'll do that story RIGHT. The only Megaman games I've been in touch with that had a big story of any sort were the Battle Network titles. And Jesus Christ, those had a shambling mockery of clichés and profund stupidity as a "plot".

KOTOR's story is debateable. 1 was simply and purely, an adventurous story, with a cast of riveting characters, each one enjoyable and with its own personality, a plot which was quite good, simplistic but could drive its own weight better than any other Star Wars fiction I've ever seen, and everything was very convincing. It was done. Finished and it triumphed.
KOTOR 2's story, is what I call an example of greatness falling short. It had alot of plot development, more complicated characters and a more convulted story. But it was unfinished to a degree that it was unforgiveable. The cast was more complex, but their stories didn't make sense sometimes. Every single one of them except for T2 was basically waiting to stab you in the back. You had a TON of elements, betrayals you could see coming from a mile away, and the usual cryptic speaking between people. I dunno about you, but I hate it when a game's characters speak in such a smart way, yet follow such boring, linear plans. KOTOR 2 was an unfinished game in every way, from its constant bugs, badly-made levels, unnatractive environments compared to the original, and drab overall colors, along with repetitive scenarios. Obsidian aimed for the very top, but they couldn't reach it in time. Thus, a game even buggier and crashier than its predecessor, in which we're constantly reminded of how deep and traitorously the new characters behave, as well as how dark the story goes. I did like Nihlus, though. Was dissapointed when the final encounter was so damn predictable, with an enemy with whom made little sense to fight, after every single action done in the course of the game. It had so much potencial... but it fell short.



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Reply #684 on: June 20, 2010, 07:10:19 AM
At this point it's basically Character vs Plot and Opinion vs Opinion.

*shrugs* I don't care for either at this point since it'll just go back and forth. I think that for a plot, characters are necessary, just as characters need a place to be. I need both for a story to be particularly interesting at this point. Carry on Zelda thread.



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #685 on: June 20, 2010, 07:15:34 AM
I don't think it's a case of Character vs. Plot, but rather Good Writing vs. Bad Writing.  Good writing make both the character & plot interesting and compelling, like a freaky game of Curling.  Bad writing does not, like a recent game of Basketball.  Take Smallville, for example.  The show's writing is pretty terrible, but when you put a good writer, like say Geoff Johns on it for an episode or two, it's damn good and makes you wonder why all episodes can't be like it. 



Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #686 on: June 20, 2010, 02:52:20 PM
At this point it's basically Character vs Plot and Opinion vs Opinion.

*shrugs* I don't care for either at this point since it'll just go back and forth. I think that for a plot, characters are necessary, just as characters need a place to be. I need both for a story to be particularly interesting at this point. Carry on Zelda thread.
In other words, completely unrelated to what I just said. 8D

I don't think it's a case of Character vs. Plot, but rather Good Writing vs. Bad Writing.  Good writing make both the character & plot interesting and compelling, like a freaky game of Curling.  Bad writing does not, like a recent game of Basketball.  Take Smallville, for example.  The show's writing is pretty terrible, but when you put a good writer, like say Geoff Johns on it for an episode or two, it's damn good and makes you wonder why all episodes can't be like it. 
Exactly. But would you rather be writing the descriptions of each character... or would you be rather be writing the plot that CHANGES them? =P



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Reply #687 on: June 20, 2010, 04:23:59 PM
Take Smallville, for example.  The show's writing is pretty terrible, but when you put a good writer, like say Geoff Johns on it for an episode or two, it's damn good and makes you wonder why all episodes can't be like it.  
...for the sake of my sanity, can we pretend that you are referring specifically to Season 8?

Interesting. Funnily enough, I see stories praised and worshipped, even though when there are silent protagonists.
Oh, I've loved games that have very forgettable characters.  Perfect example of such would be the Armored Core series.  The gameplay comes first, after all.  But when your character is perpetually silent AND off-screen AND gets no character interaction save e-mail, it's exceedingly hard to give a damn.  Dragon Quest VIII runs into a similar problem, I don't buy silent protagonists in a game that is otherwise fully voiced.  It pulls you completely out of the game and just makes the hero look boring.

A silent protagonist doesn't have to be forgettable, though.  I don't consider Link all that forgettable, at least certainly not in Twilight Princess.  One can express character depth non-verbally, but most don't bother to.

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Offline HokutoNoBen

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Reply #688 on: June 20, 2010, 05:25:26 PM
Exactly. But would you rather be writing the descriptions of each character... or would you be rather be writing the plot that CHANGES them? =P

It depends. But especially for a RPG-style storyline? Depending on the way a story is told, it could stand to require both.

Mass Effect, for example, does a great job of making it so that while the sci-fi drama in itself could be interesting (if not exactly ground-breaking) but also makes it so that you care about the characters that your avatar stands to interact with. Furthermore, the notion of how you're able to start from the first game, and then have the effects of your choices/interactions roll over into subsequent games stands to make you care even more. But all that ME showcases is what Blues is talking about: GOOD WRITING, on both parts, is necessary to make you give a [parasitic bomb] about the character(s) in a RPG/drama. A back story should be a means to help you identify with the character, while the character's growth over the course of the story keeps you loving the character.

*WARNING, the below contains spoilers for a number of titles - READ AT YOUR OWN RISK*

This is what separates how Mass Effect was able to do what it does well, and where a game like Final Fantasy 7 does fall short. In FF7, the "default" storyline that the game presents pretty much assumes that you (as Cloud) would be interacting with Aeris heavily, such that when she dies later in the game, you are supposed to feel empathy for her. But suppose you made it so Cloud rolled with any of the other viable choices the game presented (like I did with Barret for the lolz 8D). Aeris' death immediately has no real emotional impact for that player, due to the lack of the emotional investment on the player's part.

At least Leo's similar demise in FF6 was able to have a better chance at an emotional response, due to how he was able to build up an "emotional repertoire" with the player in that relatively short time he had before he got all stabbed. Then there was Fire Emblem 4, which basically forced you to say good-bye to almost ALL of the characters you had to come to love from the first half of the game (due to a great number of them dying horribly by the intermission), so there was little chance for the emotional investment to be lost on a number of those characters.

But in short, there in lies what I think is that critical thing that makes an overall story work. How it is portrayed, through either explicit writing or just the overall "direction", has to make it so that it can make the player "feel" some thing for the characters and their role in the story. It doesn't have to loads of dialogue, as I certainly was able to care about the fate of my horse in Shadow of the Colossus, and the baby Metroid's death in Super. That's more than what I can say for Alucard, who had a whole game to [sonic slicer] and moan about his lot in life throughout the course of SOTN, and I don't even feel like his character did much to change throughout the entirety of the game's narrative. But that's me. 8D



Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #689 on: June 20, 2010, 07:59:27 PM
Oh, I've loved games that have very forgettable characters.  Perfect example of such would be the Armored Core series.  The gameplay comes first, after all.  But when your character is perpetually silent AND off-screen AND gets no character interaction save e-mail, it's exceedingly hard to give a damn.  Dragon Quest VIII runs into a similar problem, I don't buy silent protagonists in a game that is otherwise fully voiced.  It pulls you completely out of the game and just makes the hero look boring.

A silent protagonist doesn't have to be forgettable, though.  I don't consider Link all that forgettable, at least certainly not in Twilight Princess.  One can express character depth non-verbally, but most don't bother to.
Exactly, the gameplay comes before the story in most games. Games like Onimusha and Ninja Gaiden might have completely ridiculous and stupid stories, but that doesn't mean we can't care for the game itself and what it brings. Honestly, tons of people praise Gordon Freeman, even though he's completely silent, because his actions are supposed to be a definition of his personality. Same with Link, for example. Or Crono, in Chrono Trigger. Their actions justify their personality, and that's what makes them do this or that. And what's there to define them, comes from the plot, instead of a "personality" they come pre-booted with. That's very important.

It depends. But especially for a RPG-style storyline? Depending on the way a story is told, it could stand to require both.

Mass Effect, for example, does a great job of making it so that while the sci-fi drama in itself could be interesting (if not exactly ground-breaking) but also makes it so that you care about the characters that your avatar stands to interact with. Furthermore, the notion of how you're able to start from the first game, and then have the effects of your choices/interactions roll over into subsequent games stands to make you care even more. But all that ME showcases is what Blues is talking about: GOOD WRITING, on both parts, is necessary to make you give a [parasitic bomb] about the character(s) in a RPG/drama. A back story should be a means to help you identify with the character, while the character's growth over the course of the story keeps you loving the character.

*WARNING, the below contains spoilers for a number of titles - READ AT YOUR OWN RISK*

This is what separates how Mass Effect was able to do what it does well, and where a game like Final Fantasy 7 does fall short. In FF7, the "default" storyline that the game presents pretty much assumes that you (as Cloud) would be interacting with Aeris heavily, such that when she dies later in the game, you are supposed to feel empathy for her. But suppose you made it so Cloud rolled with any of the other viable choices the game presented (like I did with Barret for the lolz 8D). Aeris' death immediately has no real emotional impact for that player, due to the lack of the emotional investment on the player's part.

At least Leo's similar demise in FF6 was able to have a better chance at an emotional response, due to how he was able to build up an "emotional repertoire" with the player in that relatively short time he had before he got all stabbed. Then there was Fire Emblem 4, which basically forced you to say good-bye to almost ALL of the characters you had to come to love from the first half of the game (due to a great number of them dying horribly by the intermission), so there was little chance for the emotional investment to be lost on a number of those characters.

But in short, there in lies what I think is that critical thing that makes an overall story work. How it is portrayed, through either explicit writing or just the overall "direction", has to make it so that it can make the player "feel" some thing for the characters and their role in the story. It doesn't have to loads of dialogue, as I certainly was able to care about the fate of my horse in Shadow of the Colossus, and the baby Metroid's death in Super. That's more than what I can say for Alucard, who had a whole game to [sonic slicer] and moan about his lot in life throughout the course of SOTN, and I don't even feel like his character did much to change throughout the entirety of the game's narrative. But that's me. 8D
You'll notice that there's a trend in both american and japanese games. In american games, there's the story about the soldier who has to do this or that because it has guns and it's totally cool. On JRPGs, it's the protagonist with the tragic past who has to save the world from this or that unstoppable evil. In both these games, there's little character development, if any at all. This is how you can tell a bad story from a good one. On Mass Effect, many characters start out unbearable and with a stupid personality. But they grow out of it. Good writing in plot is required.



Offline Acid

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Reply #690 on: June 20, 2010, 10:39:25 PM
So apparently the return of classical enemies has been confirmed.

I'm holding my breath for Dark Nuts, Stalfos, Re-Deads, Gibdos, Wallmasters, Deadhands and other stuff.

Really curious how many things got a redesign to fit the new style. Mostly curious about the Gorons, Zoras, Gerudos and Ganon (assuming he's in there).

Also wondering what's up with that rumor about the "new sword".



Offline Mirby

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Reply #691 on: June 20, 2010, 10:43:50 PM
Quote from: Nabeshin
Yeah, the Master Sword thing is definitely confirmed, I'll scrounge up the source shortly.

As for the timeline, the opinion of the timeline fans is that NoA (who released that statement about there being no timeline) don't know what they're talking about. NoJ and the developers still actively support continuity of some kind, even if they themselves don't know or care what it is.

Edit: http://wii.ign.com/articles/109/1098500p1.html

Quote from: Miyamoto
That mysterious figure in last year's art is the Skyward Sword. People suspected this to be the Master Sword…but spoiler alert, the Skyward Sword becomes the Master Sword. (laughs).
From ZFGC.

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Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #692 on: June 21, 2010, 12:36:31 AM
So apparently the return of classical enemies has been confirmed.

GLEEOK?  PLEASE?



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Reply #693 on: June 21, 2010, 12:55:14 AM
You know what I'd love?

Enemy Gorons. Enemy Zoras. Enemy Gerudos. Actually people you fight and kill. Can you imagine how glorious killing Gorons must feel like? Spindashing rock dudes who you can arrow in the face or something.



Offline irgpie

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Reply #694 on: June 21, 2010, 01:03:56 AM
Zoras were originally enemies in the first 4 games, actually. Although they looked completely different. Gorons, not really. Gerudos you could "stun" with arrows at one part in OoT, but that's about it.



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Reply #695 on: June 21, 2010, 02:27:29 AM
Actually, there were dual-sword-wielding Gerudos that you fought in OoT.  They never died, though, just retreated after a sound thrashing.

Gorons are the only ones in that lot who have never been enemies.  I don't think Zelda in general, least of all this pastel-colored sky adventure, is dark enough as to kill creatures you ordinarily find inhabiting towns.  

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Reply #696 on: June 21, 2010, 02:29:08 AM
Gorons are too peaceful to fight... I think...

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Offline Acid

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Reply #697 on: June 21, 2010, 02:29:15 AM
For good reason!

They're good natured people! Who would want to slay them? Inhuman criminals. That's who!



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Reply #698 on: June 21, 2010, 02:31:23 AM
Exactly! That is all that needed to be said. ^_^

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Reply #699 on: June 21, 2010, 02:33:11 AM
Actually now that I recall, Gorons were an enemy to some extent early on in Twilight Princess. Although unlike other characters, they had a perfectly legit reason for attacking Link and forcing people off the mountain. They also would often "unintentionally" roll into you in OoT at times when going up Death Mountain Trail.