The Top 10 Topic

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Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #25 on: October 22, 2009, 03:36:48 AM
*grabs uppercut, throws it into the ground*

They're not memorable, they inspired nothing, and they're both pretentious stage designs requiring that you know some things ahead of time rather than actually work with the given, standard mechanics. Final Rush is glitchy as all hell, too.



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #26 on: October 22, 2009, 03:51:59 AM
those aren't platformers, you dumbass D<

Really?  What are those considered then?



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #27 on: October 22, 2009, 03:59:13 AM
Adventure?  I dunno, I suck with classifying genres, but even I have to agree with Neko that "platformer" being applied to Zelda would be using the term pretty loosely.

They're not memorable, they inspired nothing, and they're both pretentious stage designs requiring that you know some things ahead of time rather than actually work with the given, standard mechanics. Final Rush is glitchy as all hell, too.
Do you want to debate, or do you want to leave the thread intact for others?

"Memorable" is a subjective term, what is memorable to you is irrelevant to me.  Inspiration is dependent on future developers irrelevant to quality of the original (case in point: Sentsuizan's reappearance in TvC doesn't make the X6 version any less crap).

And if you cannot get through Final Rush without prior knowledge, I am sorry, but you just suck.  It's nowhere near as glitchy as the entirety of SA1, either.

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Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #28 on: October 22, 2009, 04:13:32 AM
Adventure?  I dunno, I suck with classifying genres, but even I have to agree with Neko that "platformer" being applied to Zelda would be using the term pretty loosely.

I don't know, but 3D Zelda seems similar to 3D Mario & Banjo Kazooie to me.  Maybe not ZOE2 though.   8D



Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #29 on: October 22, 2009, 04:51:00 AM
Adventure?  I dunno, I suck with classifying genres, but even I have to agree with Neko that "platformer" being applied to Zelda would be using the term pretty loosely.
Do you want to debate, or do you want to leave the thread intact for others?

"Memorable" is a subjective term, what is memorable to you is irrelevant to me.  Inspiration is dependent on future developers irrelevant to quality of the original (case in point: Sentsuizan's reappearance in TvC doesn't make the X6 version any less crap).

And if you cannot get through Final Rush without prior knowledge, I am sorry, but you just suck.  It's nowhere near as glitchy as the entirety of SA1, either.

LoZ2 definitely counts. I'm not sure about the 3D games; platforming isn't the focus, but we're lying to ourselves if we say platforming isn't part of it. I'll just stick OoT's Temple of Time in as runner-up.

We can do both; I like your 3-10, but these 2 I'm trying to wrap my head around.

There are different degrees of memorability, though, both in absolute terms of aesthetic and structural quality combined with the stage's level of tasking and story progression, and the cheap shot route of how many people can recall from memory a given level.

Granted, but often you want to try and take inspiration from good things; what kid wants to grow up to be like Brussels Sprouts? Nah, they want to be an astronaut or a doctor or something "good." I think Sensuitzan made it just to be a downward attack.

Prior knowledge of where the level is poorly programmed. Especially that gravity maze. Rail mechanics in any Sonic game are awful enough; throw a bad camera on top of an area that insta-kills you for exploring, and we're talking major fail. Prior knowledge would more refer to the parts or how the Shadow Armor can't get through...Gate Stage 3? Or is it 2? Still not cool, either way.

Concept, execution, etc.



Offline Nekomata

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Reply #30 on: October 22, 2009, 05:09:21 AM
*gives Aldo ZEE UPPERCUT!!*
that thing sucks so hard.

Really?  What are those considered then?
a shooter and an adventure.



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #31 on: October 22, 2009, 05:32:21 AM
a shooter and an adventure.

Hmmmmm, how about that!  I never knew ZOE was considered a shooter.  XD

If Majora's Mask is considered an adventure, does Banjo Kazooie still count?



Offline Solar

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Reply #32 on: October 22, 2009, 05:35:15 AM
If Mario 64 counts...


My life is currently bears and Jojos and everything is great.



Offline Da Dood

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Reply #33 on: October 22, 2009, 02:47:12 PM
Just think of predominant challenge. In Zelda games (and Okami), you're prevented from advancing more so by the journey itself (exploration, quests, travel) than a series of endless pits. You can't even die from missing a jump.

My favorite levels will have to wait, I can't rank them. X(


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #34 on: October 22, 2009, 11:40:12 PM
that thing sucks so hard.
Well, then nothing left to do but hit zee buttons faster!!

There are different degrees of memorability
None of which are standardized, which is my point.  Aesthetics and enjoyment, the two degrees by which game "quality" are measured, vary based on individual preferences.  I find traditional fighters, especially "classic" ones, atrocious because I see memorizing special move lists as a chore and therefore having no place in a game which should be entertaining.  That doesn't make the games bad.  It makes them a poor fit for me.

Quote
Prior knowledge of where the level is poorly programmed. Especially that gravity maze. Rail mechanics in any Sonic game are awful enough; throw a bad camera on top of an area that insta-kills you for exploring, and we're talking major fail.
You may want to familiarize yourself with a stage before criticizing it, because there are no gravity stunts in Final Rush.  As for rails, try not sucking.  They're a thrill when you actually know how to maneuver on them (at least in SA2; I will not vouch for rail mechanics in other games, in fact I found Secret Rings's rails to be rather clunky).

I don't think there's a single third-person 3D game that SOMEBODY hasn't criticized for having a "bad camera".  People criticize Zelda for having a bad camera.  People criticize Sonic for having a bad camera.  People criticize Mario for having a bad camera.  SA2's camera may not be award-winning, but it beats the hell out of SM64's (one of the Stars on Tiny/Huge Island had a particularly lousy spot, and you constantly have to re-adjust in Bowser battles despite the lack of a much needed fine adjustment; the camera moves only in fixed increments).  And SM64's camera didn't stop me from enjoying the game, so you damn well better believe SA2's didn't.

Insta-kills for exploring?  No clue what you're talking about.  Not unless your idea of exploration is jumping into Earth's atmosphere.

Quote
Prior knowledge would more refer to the parts or how the Shadow Armor can't get through...Gate Stage 3? Or is it 2? Still not cool, either way.
I've been over this many times already.  You should never kill a game's default abilities in unfamiliar territory, which is what Shadow does in exchange for its power.  You simply do not take gambles like that without being prepared to lose, it's common sense.

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Offline Fxeni

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Reply #35 on: October 22, 2009, 11:46:42 PM
Eh, I personally have nothing against SA2's levels. The Sonic and Shadow levels in that game are well executed overall, better than SA in my opinion.
Still think X6's isn't well planned out, though.

As for my list... well, I can't really say. There's far too many to pick from, spanning systems from the course of my lifetime. I would be lying to myself if I tried to make any final list.



Offline Jericho

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Reply #36 on: October 22, 2009, 11:49:44 PM
As a platforming junkie, this thread is impossible for me to answer. Really good options will be popping up in my head years from now and you want me to limit myself to 10? XD

Although I will say this, the Mario (platformer) series doesn't have one weak link in its platforming level design. Even if it did, the majesty of Super Mario Bros. 3, Yoshi's Island & Super Mario Galaxy would make up for them and then some. XD



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #37 on: October 22, 2009, 11:53:03 PM
the Mario (platformer) series doesn't have one weak link in its platforming level design.
I must strongly disagree when you take Mario Sunshine into consideration.  Not that it didn't have its moments, but the package as a whole was pretty lousy.  Bad pacing and a monotonous tone, no Mario game has ever felt that tedious.

Yoshi's Island DS, while good, isn't exactly the AAA material one expects from a Mario platformer either.  Certainly can't hold a candle to the original.

Quote
Even if it did, the majesty of Super Mario Bros. 3, Yoshi's Island & Super Mario Galaxy would make up for them and then some. XD
Very true.

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Offline Keno

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Reply #38 on: October 23, 2009, 07:26:13 AM
5. Tornado Man - MegaMan 9
It's no secret that I do not consider MM9's level design the best ever.  But if one stage came anywhere near worthy of standing in the ranks of the classics, it was Tornado Man.  Tornado Man did not force you to stop and analyze every lift and death trap, did not make a spectacle of how well you can snake your jumping path with an archaic physics engine, and did not blindside you with off-screen enemies.  Unique obstacles, good enemy placement, and a strong pace make this one of MM9's best segments.
What the [tornado fang] is archaic about Mega Man's physics? If you're gonna throw that word around, the entire genre breaks down as one asks, "Why can't Mega Man move in 3 dimensions? That's archaic."

Seriously though, the GB MM games were the best the series ever had, & they were full of snaking.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #39 on: October 23, 2009, 06:10:55 PM
ar·cha·ic
ADJECTIVE:
1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a much earlier, often more primitive period


In the context of gaming I think 22 years and four console generations ago certainly qualifies as an earlier, more primitive period.  I didn't say that in and of itself was bad, I simply think that MM9 over-uses the snake-jumping gimmick.

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Offline Keno

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Reply #40 on: October 23, 2009, 07:02:47 PM
All Mega Man physics are archaic, though. None of them have momentum, & simply letting you change your direction in midair is so unrealistic & archaic. I mean, Castlevania already has set the standard in realistic 2D jump physics, & Sonic crushes Mega Man on realistic movement physics.

I don't think there's any such thing as too much snaking. It's the core of the GB titles, & I like it. I thought the Wily stages in 9 were fantastic.



Offline Da Dood

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Reply #41 on: October 23, 2009, 07:23:35 PM
Bump because of the levels topic, maybe people wanna post more Top 10s!

Top 10 Games of the Current Generation As of Today

With the exception of 1 and 2, this list could pretty much switch places around at any time. I'm basically celebrating that with my purchase of Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 I have finally played ten 9.0+ games in this generation (in my view of course).

10. World of Goo [Wii]
And I don't even like puzzle games. Charming, unique and simple concept, clever design, just my type. *click*

9. BioShock [multi]
Just a beautiful experience all around. Highly interactive and customizable combat, fun exploration in gorgeous Rapture. Now would you kindly move on to #8?

8. Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 [PS3]
Much more refined and balanced than Sigma One, which I still consider a great game, this sequel finally doesn't totally hate the player on medium difficulty. In some parts it actually kinda leads the way, like God of War. And when you want the challenge, the challenge is there. Awesome, awesome stuff.

7. Contra 4 [DS]
You get an excellent throwback to the old days, plus the first couple of NES titles emulated perfectly. Mega Man Anniversary Collecion didn't come close.

6. Dead Space [multi]
The game that single handedly destroyed my slight prejudice against shameless clones. In some ways, this is even better than Resident Evil 4.

5. Resident Evil 5 [multi]
Basically an extension of RE4 that came out too late, but as long as you can find a decent partner and a big TV, 2P co-op is genius.

4. Metroid Prime 3: Corruption [Wii]
First game I played of the current generation that felt like natural next-gen progress. The controls did it for me, and the adventure itself is pretty freaking nice.

3. Super Smash Bros. Brawl [Wii]
I spent over 160 hours on this, solo, and I'm not even good at it. Smash went from a lighthearted mix-up to a gigantic videogame tribute, and for that reason alone there's no way I could perform a down+A sweep to kick this much lower. I love that big third-party developers like Kojima respect Smash, and with Brawl's cast of guest characters and musicians I can only admire their beautiful collaboration. This is also the longest I've spent on a game without actually playing the game. I often pop Brawl and look at the Trophies, listen to the music, play some Coin Launcher and mess with character animations, for hours and hours.

2. Super Mario Galaxy [Wii]
Objectively, I consider this the best game of the generation. There aren't many games out there where pretty much every gameplay mechanic is just as fleshed out as the main attraction. I would easily buy a whole game made of Ice Mario racing, ray surfing, honeycomb climbing or rolling ball. With fantastic presentation and adorable level design, Galaxy is the only game of this generation that truly made me forget real life for as long as I played it, and that's even considering my #1.

1. Mega Man 9 [multi]
Maybe not the most complete game around, but for totally biased and sentimental reasons I don't see any game topping this for a really long time. Ironically, my favorite game of the current generation does everything to steer away from modern conventions. MM9 to me is a dream come true.


Offline Keno

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Reply #42 on: October 23, 2009, 07:36:37 PM
Well Mega Man 10'll top it, right?



Offline Da Dood

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Reply #43 on: October 23, 2009, 07:44:32 PM
I hope so! owo


Offline Satoryu

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Reply #44 on: October 23, 2009, 09:46:21 PM
I mean, Castlevania already has set the standard in realistic 2D jump physics,

Incorrect. The same rules in Mega Man apply to all the games as of late. The NES games were the exceptions, and they're not realistic either.

Also, I'm merging this into Da Dood's Top 10 topic that was just bumped up.


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Offline Acid

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Reply #45 on: October 23, 2009, 09:51:39 PM
Guidance Gate
Mausoleum of Giants
Temple of the Sun
Spring in the Sky
Inferno Cavern
Twin Labyrinth
Chamber of Extinction
Dimensional Corridoor

Name the game and I'll give you... uuh... I'll say you're right.



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Reply #46 on: October 23, 2009, 10:21:30 PM
La Mulana is love. <3

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Offline Acid

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Reply #47 on: October 23, 2009, 10:24:20 PM
You're right.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #48 on: October 24, 2009, 12:28:41 AM
unrealistic & archaic
Those are two completely unrelated terms.  Realism is irrelevant to age, and never did I discuss realism.  I have no idea what point you're trying to make, but I clearly lost you if you think I'm criticizing the ability to change directions in midair.

Hell, I lost you if you think "archaic" is a criticism at all.  Being old is not a bad thing.  It's just different.  Jumping in the NES games isn't the same as in more current titles.  You fall quickly and lateral movement is more sluggish.  In and of itself there's nothing wrong with that, but there are many instances where I feel MM9 simply throws the limitations of that setup in your face.  Not that the NES games didn't, but they reserved it for a select few gimmicks.

Your argument concerning GB games is irrelevant; they may re-use sprites but fall speed (and in fact the speed of pretty much anything) is considerably slower in order to accommodate the smaller screen size.

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Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #49 on: October 24, 2009, 03:47:06 AM
Having just finished testing out my new Thrustmaster controller, I can tell you that older MM Classic games like 3 had HUUUUUGE hitboxes, and that games such as Megaman 9 are more fluid, less annoying, and require better aim, meaning it's all the better for it.