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The Great Gonzo · 95621

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Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #300 on: October 07, 2009, 01:17:17 AM
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Everything is its own internally consistent canon, that's a given. Official or unofficial, everything is canon to itself, that's just reciting the very definition of canon. What we're talking about is more on how all those separate canons relate and holds some truth about each other.

Well ... no, not really.  When people say "canon" around here they usually mean what's true in the Capcom of Japan game continuity.  And when they say "not canon", they are talking about it strictly in relation to the CoJ continuity.  But this is never flat-out stated and it seems the issue is confused.  Not everyone is using the same "playbook".

Many times when people say "canon" (and I'd say in this case as well) they mean "what counts overall".  And everything officially made counts in some capacity.  But it wouldn't be quite right to put the PC games into a timline of games in the Japanese continuity.  

So, af far as canon is concerned, Dr. Wily and Light were partners.  That's well established and official.  However it applies only to the US continuity.  In Japan they weren't.  

What we're talking about here is more like "what has weight in the Japanese game continuity", so let's make that very clear.  That's all I'm sayin'.

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And what I'm saying is that Ariga's use of BreakMan is as valid in our evaluation of what Breakman truly is as looking into sprites that never made it into the final game.

Well, there's that, and Brakman's invulnerability to Master Weapons, his shots being bigger (although still dealing the same damage), and his fight counting as a Protoman fight in CW that really seals the deal on Breakman being Protoman.  But you also have all sprites and concept sketches being grouped together in such a way that it seems pretty clear what's going on.   The unused sprites are really the thing that brought it all together, but it's all right there.  

With Ariga, you'd have to pick and choose what's true and what isn't.  I mean, maybe he did ask someone at Capcom what the deal was.  Or maybe he didn't.  We can't know.  But there's no denying the facts of the matter.


Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #301 on: October 07, 2009, 01:49:30 AM
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I think it should be quite clear what's wrong with the notion of them being partners that produced Blues and the other industrial robots.

There's nothing wrong with it if Wily buggered off before Proto was built. >.> That's the way I remember it.

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Everything is its own internally consistent canon, that's a given. Official or unofficial, everything is canon to itself, that's just reciting the very definition of canon. What we're talking about is more on how all those separate canons relate and holds some truth about each other.

Sure...if it's the right region. Grumble.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #302 on: October 07, 2009, 02:25:08 AM
There's nothing wrong with it if Wily buggered off before Proto was built. >.> That's the way I remember it.

I'm with you here, man.  I don't see anything wrong with it either. 


Offline Zan

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Reply #303 on: October 07, 2009, 03:07:54 AM
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There's nothing wrong with it if Wily buggered off before Proto was built. >.> That's the way I remember it.

Wily buggering off before ProtoMan was built?... What are you talking about? We are comparing the cartoon with the games. ProtoMan was shown being made by Wily and Light! Likewise, he's outright said to have made the other industrial robots in the US manual! All of this is in outright contradiction with the original story of the games.



Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #304 on: October 07, 2009, 03:32:24 AM
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Wily buggering off before ProtoMan was built?... What are you talking about? We are comparing the cartoon with the games.

Which I didn't see in that post. Unless you're being sarcastic.

To be fair to the writers of the MM1 manual (which, if I've read, I don't remember doing so), they wrote it long before Proto ever showed up.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #305 on: October 07, 2009, 03:51:23 AM
The US manuals certainly imply Wily ran off with Protowhen he went renegade.  The RS shows were heavily based off the MM1 manual for it's premise.  I don't see much problem with Wily running off with Proto while he stole Cuts, Guts and the rest.  He just kept him working behind the scenes during 1 and 2. 

Of course, none of this is relevant to the Japanese games at all. 


Offline Flame

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Reply #306 on: October 07, 2009, 04:43:05 AM
Its not relevant to the American ones either. All we know in the US games, is that for whatever reason, Proto was helping Wily until 3, (or was it 4? I dont remember) where he called it quits, and left him.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #307 on: October 07, 2009, 06:32:17 AM
He was helping him until 4, when he rescued Kalinka .... much to Wily's surprise.


Offline Flame

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Reply #308 on: October 07, 2009, 07:23:42 AM
Yeah. I think I recall Wily calling him a traitor or something.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Zan

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Reply #309 on: October 07, 2009, 11:50:47 AM
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Of course, none of this is relevant to the Japanese games at all.
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Which I didn't see in that post.

Do you honestly not remember the quotes preceding it?

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RS also had glaring story errors, such as Light and Wily being partners,
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How do you know they weren't?
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Apparently, that's not what the original story for MM1 said. But I don't remember CoJ having anything to say on the matter, so it could be either, honestly.

We were comparing the RS cartoon's "glaring story errors" that occur relative to the original story from the games.

In which it's fairly clear. Wily could NOT have built Blues. Because Blues hates Right but not Wily. Had Wily created Blues, Blues would not be working for him. Likewise Wily's exile from the scientific community occurred before Rock and the others were created and him stealing the industrial robots occurs immediately precedes the events of the game. All of this invalidates the RS cartoon and the US manual its based upon.

Don't try to argue how it works within the cartoon's canon itself, the whole point is that it does not work compared to its source.

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The US manuals certainly imply Wily ran off with Protowhen he went renegade.

Which is rather peculiar considering Wily was stated there to have stayed around to build Rock and the Industrial Robots. The "US" games and manuals only state Dr. Light made ProtoMan. It's only assumed that "assistant" Wily had a hand in it because he worked with Dr. Light on ProtoMan's successors. Either way, you have to somehow reason how ProtoMan ended up at Wily's whilst not being with Dr. Light at the time of his treason.




Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #310 on: October 07, 2009, 04:12:05 PM
It's entirely possible that Wily was away on a business trip or something the entire time Proto was built and ran away. After that, he came back and helped Dr. Light build the six industrial robots and Rock.

This argument is making me regret that I ever brought RS-MM up. Sarcastically, mind you, because you were using the manga.



Offline Zan

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Reply #311 on: October 07, 2009, 05:28:54 PM
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It's entirely possible that Wily was away on a business trip or something the entire time Proto was built and ran away. After that, he came back and helped Dr. Light build the six industrial robots and Rock.

The details are fairly clear, Wily was in exile at the time of Blues' running away. Wily helped Blues in his time of need and Blues therefore pays allegiance to Wily. At that time, Wily learned from working on Blues' systems how to reprogram Dr. Right's robots. We also have further details on how Rock and Roll were created as siblings by Dr. Right to avoid making the same mistakes as with Blues and we know they've not met Wily before the events of Rockman1. We also have details on Wily and Right's rivalry concerning the Nobel Prize, LIT manual design contest, World Engineer Grand Prix which invalidate a partnership; Wily's work is different from Right's and he's the eternal second best. And not to mention the statement that only the Rockman3 robots can specifically be considered "Right and Wily Numbers", shortened to "Wily Numbers" with the original industrial robots specifically as "Right Numbers".

Compare that to the cartoon in which we saw Wily and Right build ProtoMan.

Compare that to the US manual which leaves Blues and Roll unspecified beyond "made by Light" and outright says "MegaMan" (Should be Rock) and "6 industrial robots" were made by "Light and -assistant- Wily."

When it comes to work derivative of the Japanese sources, we naturally see less contradictions of the above sort. But the times that differences are introduced in the details are naturally unavoidable. Still, if you would compare for instance Ariga and Iwamoto. Ariga's the overall more faithful of the two.  This level of faithfulness is very much unprecedented in other work. He has truly captured the spirit and setting of Rockman.



Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #312 on: October 07, 2009, 05:57:13 PM
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When it comes to work derivative of the Japanese sources, we naturally see less contradictions of the above sort. But the times that differences are introduced in the details are naturally unavoidable.

Does its being Japanese make it inherently good? The OVA was tepid at best, having decided to devote most of its time to slow educational content. (I know it wasn't made for the Japanese market, but they're the ones that got it first)

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Still, if you would compare for instance Ariga and Iwamoto. Ariga's the overall more faithful of the two.  This level of faithfulness is very much unprecedented in other work. He has truly captured the spirit and setting of Rockman.

So did Shigeto Ikehara, but no one cares about him, apparently. >.>

I should point out, Ariga came after RS-MM. RS-MM came about at a time when Megaman's story was sparse; I don't think even the original manuals said [tornado fang]-all about what was going on or what anyone was like beyond what little plot they couldn't be arsed to put in the games themselves (I'm talking MM1-4 here). So Ruby-Spears can't be blamed for taking the show in the direction they did. Not to mention, they probably began work on it a while before '94, and they had even less to work with then.



Offline Flame

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Reply #313 on: October 07, 2009, 06:58:35 PM
Ikehara is a bit more obscure than the other two. :P

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline marshmallow man

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Reply #314 on: October 07, 2009, 08:06:54 PM
Regarding canon, I think it's usually understood what canon someone is talking about from the context, but I'll admit it does appear to get to be confusing for newcomers to the fandom. If I recall, at one point Mega Man Network had an article explaining it, though I think it got dropped over subsequent site moves/reboots, along with their Sourcebook info section.

As for Japanese Rockman canon vs American/European/etc Mega Man canon...  While some things are apparently changed intentionally for western audiences, a lot of Mega Man game and media produced info suffers from inconsistency, misconception and mistranslation. Where we can't always tell which is what, it is easier (for those familiar with the Japanese versions at least) to go by the original standard and note the exceptions. But outnumbering these are the many games, books, cds and merchandise that were never brought over at all, and thus regional counterparts don't exist. If we say that American game canon is a separate entity from Japanese game canon, then we essentially say there is nothing in the Japanese canon that applies to the American without being expressly mentioned in the American. Which means huge gaps and a large number of unknown variables that would otherwise have been understood.

I don't think this is news to anyone in this thread, hell, much of this thread itself is proof positive of what I'm referrring to. And that's not to say Japanese sources never contradict, never retcon or never offer silly explanations that don't necessarily make the most sense. It isn't about what's "best," you can prefer whatever version you like, be it manga, comic book, anime, cartoon, A-game or J-game. There's always the option to compose your own fanon or exercise your imagination regardless of any of these.

What the default phrase of "canon" usually refers to around here is that these are stories and backgrounds put out by the people who first and foremost created these games, this is the tale they told before it was wrung through the filtering process for another region, or reworked into a comic book or TV show, and this is the foundation that future game and related entries are likely to build from and abide by (for whatever that really accounts for). I usually try to specify "game canon" even though that itself is something of a misnomer in that it actually extends further than what is simply found in the games. But because it's mostly what I talk about, what I think most of the plot discussions in this entire board section are about, it's simple enough to just say canon for shorthand. When we're talking about a different canon, manga for instance, it usually requires further specification anyhow, as in "Iwamoto's Rockman X manga" which is mutually exclusive with "Ikehara's Irregular Hunter Rockman X manga," or "Battle Story Rockman EXE manga" vs regular "Rockman EXE manga" vs. its American counterpart "Mega Man NT Warrior manga" etc. etc. etc. To refer to them all commonly as "canon" would, in my estimation, be more confusing than the current state where one recognized version is regularly referred to as canon and the others as specified as separate universes, which though not necessarily mentioned as such are understood to be canon only to themselves.

Anyway, the cool thing about Gigamix is that practically no one in the Capcom licensed manga realm, not even Ikehara, has done a serious R3 manga before. And for that matter, most "sourcebooks" from that or any current era skip over the greater part of the details about the unknown worlds, Blues/Breakman, the crystals and Gamma... For such an old game, it's new territory. It will be food for thought, if nothing else.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #315 on: October 07, 2009, 11:52:33 PM
When talking to some the term "canon" is pretty clear most of the time, but it gets really muddled when you debate on which souces count.  Really, really muddled.  because people tend to stop and ask the obvious "why doesn't  ___ count?  It's officially made..."

While everyone agrees that everything counts in it's own continuity phrases such as "not canon" are still tossed around all the time and it's pretty confusing to new people or people jumping into threads.  And it's not even really correct to say.  It's much easier to specifiy which canon is being discussed.  

Frankly, I'd agree that, more often than not, a blank should be left for US entries rather than filling them in with Japanese things in order to make it more "complete".  Because it leads to less contradictions.  For THAT canon.

As for Japanese > US, it's only more detailed because it has more material.  The US stories, such as they are, don't offer up many bothersome contradictions.  It's usually names Wright to Light, not really story.  There's not much there to contradict.

Also, I never really got why there was so much confusion as to how Wily could "assist" Light without being named as a co-creator.  To me, there's a really BIG difference between "assistant" and "co-creator".  Wily could have done anything from going over Light's math to bringing him his coffeeand not be a co-creator.  There's just no contradiction at all in saying that Wily was Light's assistant and that Light created Protoman.  

As for the RS cartoon, it's pretty messed up with Protoman.  Wily stole the kid-Protoman and then totally rebuilt him into an adult.  So how did Light make him at all?  There musta been a change in art, substituting the kid proto model for an adult one, because it doesn't make too much sence.


Offline Flame

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Reply #316 on: October 08, 2009, 01:12:32 AM
Then theres the Megamissions cards, which are actually semi-canon to the games.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #317 on: October 08, 2009, 03:25:17 AM
Personally I consider MegaMissions' canonical status to be comparable to the manga; it is a valuable source of insight but not literally applicable to game canon (the difference being MegaMissions is telling a more original story).

MegaMissions is of questionable status due mainly to part 2, in which Light provides an armor that is usable by both Zero and X.  Shouldn't be possible according to X5 (or more accurately, not in that timeframe; XCM shows that somebody pulled it off eventually).  There's also a bit of a style clash as none of the MegaMission "armors" apply full-body the way that the in-game armors do.

Frankly, I'd agree that, more often than not, a blank should be left for US entries rather than filling them in with Japanese things in order to make it more "complete".  Because it leads to less contradictions.  For THAT canon.

As for Japanese > US, it's only more detailed because it has more material.  The US stories, such as they are, don't offer up many bothersome contradictions.  It's usually names Wright to Light, not really story.  There's not much there to contradict.
I'd only consider English "canon" to be separate from Japanese in the case of vocabulary, that being it is only natural for terms to change across regions.

Other than that, I, and I think most fans, regard English games as simply translations.  They are derivative works, and future installments will build on the originals.  The perfect example of this is X3.  "To save mankind, he must destroy Zero".  A small rephrase left big implications that were never fulfilled.  It's not that non-game Japanese sources aren't brought here because they aren't applicable; it's that the big shots in charge generally do not consider it worthwhile to do so.  The entity behind this story is a business, after all, and their primary business is games.

Also on DeviantArt, Rumble, DLive.tv, and the Fediverse (@freespeechextremist.com and @bae.st)


Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #318 on: October 08, 2009, 04:22:11 AM
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As for the RS cartoon, it's pretty messed up with Protoman.  Wily stole the kid-Protoman and then totally rebuilt him into an adult.  So how did Light make him at all?  There musta been a change in art, substituting the kid proto model for an adult one, because it doesn't make too much sence.

I figured that what Dr. Light and Dr. Wily meant by "built Protoman" were different things: Dr. Light constructed his CPU, which was transferred to the physical body that Dr. Wily built. Plus, Wily's quite prideful, so it's only natural that he'd treat a CPU transfer as "building" Protoman.

Oh, and most of "The Beginning" was a flashback--Mega's, if memory serves. He got a train dropped on him, and dreams are never that true to reality anyway, so for all we know, it could have gone differently. Or Dr. Light misremembered some things.


I'm with Gauntlet on the definition of "Wily was Light's assistant". Makes a lot more sense than the US MM1 manual.



Offline Flame

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Reply #319 on: October 08, 2009, 08:49:44 PM
Personally I consider MegaMissions' canonical status to be comparable to the manga; it is a valuable source of insight but not literally applicable to game canon (the difference being MegaMissions is telling a more original story).


Hasn't Megamissions been explicitly stated to be semi canon by Capcom? it fits in between X2 and 3. I forgot, but I think there was somewhere that said it was semi canon...

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Zan

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Reply #320 on: October 08, 2009, 09:56:21 PM
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Also, I never really got why there was so much confusion as to how Wily could "assist" Light without being named as a co-creator.  To me, there's a really BIG difference between "assistant" and "co-creator".  Wily could have done anything from going over Light's math to bringing him his coffeeand not be a co-creator.  There's just no contradiction at all in saying that Wily was Light's assistant and that Light created Protoman. 

There are two big problems with the notion of Wily as an assistant. First and foremost, he would never ever stand to be put in second place to Light. Secondly, he'd still be responsible for the crime of activating an unfinished prototype of a sentient being, therefore, ProtoMan would hate him.

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I'd only consider English "canon" to be separate from Japanese in the case of vocabulary, that being it is only natural for terms to change across regions.

Other than that, I, and I think most fans, regard English games as simply translations.  They are derivative works, and future installments will build on the originals.  The perfect example of this is X3.  "To save mankind, he must destroy Zero".  A small rephrase left big implications that were never fulfilled.  It's not that Japanese sources aren't brought here because they aren't applicable; it's that the big shots in charge generally do not consider it worthwhile to do so.  The entity behind this story is a business, after all, and their primary business is games.

Very much agreed here. But some people don't see it this way and insist on their "US canon" vehemently. As I recall, I've once commented on a remark that MegaMan8 should have followed up on MegaMan7's "Die Wily" quote. The scene in question not being in the Japanese game, I saw no need for the writers of the next game to take it into account and adressed such. The poster of the remark got very defensive....

Really, it is as you say. There's no "US canon" outside of the consistent localization changes that are the character's names. And even then, we've had particularly odd cases such as "Gospel" in Battle Network2, AquaMan to SpoutMan between Battle Network 4 and 6, and let's not forget "Mega" instead of "Rock".  The difference between "MegaMan" Voulnutt and "MegaMan" Trigger is also a particularly infamous one.

All in all, the "US canon" stopped existing once consistency was lost. Even more so now that Powered Up has trampled all over the remainder of it. The notions born from it nowadays should only exist as ingredients that spark our imagination, not as the canon story of the games. That's not such a thing as favoring a particular region, that's merely favoring the original source.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #321 on: October 09, 2009, 02:35:19 AM
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There are two big problems with the notion of Wily as an assistant. First and foremost, he would never ever stand to be put in second place to Light. Secondly, he'd still be responsible for the crime of activating an unfinished prototype of a sentient being, therefore, ProtoMan would hate him.

The first is not a problem at all but is the a BIG reason for his desire to dominate the world in the US series.  Or, at least it's implied to be a big reason since the manuals don't go deeply into it.    But every secondary source that goes into Wily's character is based around the fact that Wily hated being second bannanna.  You can really hate being second best while actually being second best.  It's not a contradiction or a problem.

The second point also is not a real problem because Proto's resenting of Light and the reasons for it isn't really covered in the US series; that's the Japanese series.  Moreover, as I said earlier assistant =/= co-creator.  Wily could have gone over Light's math for all we know.  Maybe he got Light his coffee.

So, how did Wily stumble upon Protoman in the Japanese series that didn't incur his wrath?  By your logic he never activated him, so how did they meet?


Offline Zan

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Reply #322 on: October 09, 2009, 02:47:29 AM
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The first is not a problem at all but is the a BIG reason for his desire to dominate the world in the US series.  Or, at least it's implied to be a big reason since the manuals don't go deeply into it.    But every secondary source that goes into Wily's character is based around the fact that Wily hated being second bannanna.  You can really hate being second best while actually being second best.  It's not a contradiction or a problem.

The problem is not that he's "second bannanna", he's that regardless of the story you follow. Rather that he's not actively trying to step out of that is a big difference. Wily being confined to working with Light as superior instead of trying to exceed him with something of his own, that is what's odd.


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The second point also is not a real problem because Proto's resenting of Light and the reasons for it isn't really covered in the US series; that's the Japanese series. 

In more recent times, MegaMan Powered Up is not part of the US series? Surely, for those that followed said US canon, it's a retcon of massive proportions, but that's how it is nowadays. It too has been localized with respect to the US series of the past. The infamous "Mega" name change and the tribute line "Blue Bomber" are a result of that.

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So, how did Wily stumble upon Protoman in the Japanese series that didn't incur his wrath?

According to that story, Wily had no involvement in Blues' creation. But when Blues ran away from Dr. Right, his defect eventually caused him to break down. Wily discovered the broken down Blues and succeeded in repairing him. From that point on, Blues owes Wily his life and therefore helped the doctor until he discovered his true nature.



Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #323 on: October 09, 2009, 02:54:07 AM
I don't see why Wily couldn't be actively trying to become first bannana while working with Light, or why he simply couldn't be out of town or something when Proto was activated and ran off.

And I don't mean to incur Zan's wrath with this statement, but thanks to the weeaboos, I hate the idea of separating canons by region in cases like this. Because, inevitably, the Japanese version will be the one hailed as the "true canon", and the other regions will be put down, simply because they aren't the Japanese version.



Offline Flame

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Reply #324 on: October 09, 2009, 04:04:28 AM

I hate the idea of separating canons by region in cases like this.
Blame Capcom USA.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.