Author Topic: Megaman X : Eclipse  (Read 12697 times)

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Offline thefallenalchemist

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2013, 05:38:47 AM »
Music in Scorch Raptor is really rubbing me wrong. The tunes in the X series had more [acid burst] n vinegar, and I'm not hearing that. It's a volcano, so I'd think blazing guitars and an overall feeling of "heat" is in order. I love how the tune starts, but it doesn't seem right for the stage.
I'm also seeing quite a bit of emptiness in the level before the mid-boss, as has been discussed. I am having the worst trouble with the downward lava portion. That last wall jump is damn near impossible to make, even for an X Vet like me. I'll keep trying, but less inclined players will be pitching a fit.

I also found a bug or two: When X jums over spikes, sometimes the sprite will freeze on the edge of them. Also, if you cause the wall to close and don't jump down all the way, it will trap you in the closed wall, as you watch the spiked wall continue it's descent to the bottom. I won't lie. It was kind of funny.

Lava is not as powerful as it should be, mid-boss explosion is weak, enemies have odd explosion patterns in some instances, and Joes aren't as easy as you've made them.

Drops are odd too. Three extra lives in one stage? Why, thank you. Though I recognized the tiles from Tunnel Rhino and Volt Catfish, I'll let it slide being that this is the first taste of handmade X that I've ever played, sans flash based wannabe games and MM21xx.

I've been asking for a 16 bit X series game for longer than some on this forum have probably been alive, and am strongly critical about these games. But, I shrug my shoulders and exclaim "It could be worse" as I prepare to dust off my buster and take down that raptor.

It made my day, nonetheless. Can't wait to play the final.



Posted on: August 25, 2013, 08:49:47
Sorry to double post, but the mobile version of the forum won't let me edit. Basically, I've been playing the game for about three hours now, still trying to get past the the lava portions of the stage. Come on guys, this is ridiculous. For a guy who's played and beaten all the X games and several times over, there's a big difference between challenge and artificial difficulty.

The first portion of the flowing lava takes practice and isn't that tough, until you get to the opening at the end. That gap is about a split second before the wall comes down, which is just frustrating, something I would have expected from MMU.

Then, you follow up with the spiked walls which require the upward dash jump, except the lava flows much faster than it should. In X3, the lava that flows after beating Sigma is somewhat tricky, but it never moved that damn fast. A friend of mine who programs games in VB, watched me play the demo and immediately noticed the bad design choice. Do we really need the quick moving lava and the spike wall spam? It turns fun into frustrating, which made me want to throw my controller down a few times. I ask that you would tone it down a bit, or at least throw that portion into a Sigma stage where we'd expect it. Spikes all over the place do not equal fun. Remember the old games and how they utilized difficulty without resorting to death traps. I think only X6 Gate stage 1 did that, and you had to use a special ability to scale the wall. Other than that, I remember Agile's stage. But even that was bearable. But demos are released for feedback, and all I'm asking is that you keep the player in mind.

Phil and crew were good at MMU. But another player might not be as good as they are and find it so tough, that they no longer care about it.

I have been through the stage 40-60 times (keep grabbing the extra life) and still have not made it. And I've spent many years playing the games for 100% completion. So just think how a newcomer will do.

Offline Servadac

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2013, 10:32:04 AM »
Played the demo and I have some comments, at least up to the point where I stopped playing. I like the music, I have no problems with it. It's hard for me to tell if the stage sprites are ripped or just very similar to the ones in an existing X-game. And I'm not sure that's a good thing. The SNES X-games reuse a lot of enemies but perhaps it would be fun with a new enemy or a few of them. The first part of the stage up to the mid boss does seem a bit bland, but I have no idea how to change it. Making platforming challenging is much harder when you can cling to walls and airdash.

The miniboss you can quite easily avoid if you just stay under him, maybe that's intended? Also X getting knocked down when he crashes into the wall seems very random. And a very small nitpick: the light part on the shoulder pad thingies should be round if you want to convey with the shading that they are round.

And now we get to the part with the sinking lava and spike ceiling. I'm sorry but that was the uninstall.exe moment for me. Instakill things just are NOT fun for the player. MMU and Mega Man games made by Inticreates might make it seem otherwise but yeah. At the very least make the damage invincibility so that you survive touching lava.

On my end I had no slowdowns whatsoever, but GM games are notorious for causing slowdowns depending on a host of different aspects, programming etc.

Offline OBJECTION MAN

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2013, 10:37:47 AM »
Take this feedback with some consideration that I am a professional game designer, who owns a video game company.


First off I would like to congratulate you on completing a solid demo. A great milestone, especially for a side project. There are of course things that could use improvement, but you did a lot of things right, mostly in the programming sector. I'll start off with some minor things, then dig deeper as I go along.

This may just be me, but I think X slides down walls faster than the SNES games. This threw me off at first, as my 'muscle memory' for playing SNES X games was causing me to miss a few timed air dashes off of wall drops for a while until I adjusted.

When triangle kicking (wall kicking) there seems to be some issue with how long you hold the button down. If you just tap the button, x goes for a longer jump up than if you held the button for a split second and then released, which causes X to immediately stop ascending. If tapping the button acted this way, the lava & spike ceiling segment would be much more manageable.

Now on to the rest.

Flat out, without absolute certainty, I must say the game is way over the line on difficulty. I STRONGLY urge you to completely reconsider on this. We do NOT need another MM Unlimited disaster.

This stage is very much like a prototype stage, and does not feel like final material. I would suggest you redesign this Maverick's stage from the ground up, using what you've learned so far. The difficulty needs to tone down severely. There are a few simple things you can do to adjust the difficulty without losing the concepts you have. As it stands now, this is very literally on par with what I would expect from the final stage, not fit for a normal Maverick stage.

Remember that you can always apply these stage ideas into the fortress stages with added difficulty if you feel their application in the 8 selectable stages were not enough.

First off, the lava and spikes section has to be toned down. I would introduce the element into a smaller area. Use blocks to narrow the shaft's width at the top. Then make it bigger, and introduce enemies after a short time. Right off the bat it is too wide, and the difficulty actually tones down once you get to the part with blocks in your way.

I realize why you made the lava instant kill, even when you're in the invincibility period. It is so you don't fall ahead of the lava, potentially to the point of never being able to come back in time and it looking a bit silly in the process. There are a couple of ways you can potentially mitigate this if you want to turn the immunity during invincibility back on (and I suggest you do).

My best suggestion is to have a floor, that moves with the lava, about 32 pixels under the lava surface I'd guess. If X were to fall down into the lava, and not die instantly because he is within his invincibility period, then he will be visibly covered in it, but still able to hop out in time.

This hard to pull off 'second chance' negates the need for the lava to do high damage, as the chances of escape are narrow as is.

To make this segment more manageable, perhaps provide a 16 or 32 pixel increase to the gap between the ceiling and lava surface. The current size isn't impossible, but i'd expect this stage gimmick to appear within the final stages as well, which would be much more suited with the current gap size to add to the challenge.

Remember that you always want to teach the player of a mechanic or gimmick before throwing them right into the challenging segment. Teach them with the maverick stage, and make them apply it to a higher degree in the fortress stages. It would make for a good HOLY [parasitic bomb] ITS BACK moment later on in the game.

The jump at the end I know people had some issues with. It was a neat touch and a nice OH [parasitic bomb] OH [parasitic bomb] OH [parasitic bomb] moment. It needs only one thing though. A warning of some sort. There are a couple of ways to minimize the issue. My best advice here is to have a tiny segment before the big jump, that demonstartes what will happen. The ground you land on should be clearly visible on the other side of the spike section for this tiny pre-application of the stage gimmick. Doing a standard dash jump should easily clear it. You just want the player to see and understand the mechanic. Then you give them the large jump.

Otherwise, make the initial jump of the gimmick shorter, so there is less margin of error and it is easier to time. Likewise it may be worth trying to keep the bottom from narrowing, just the top. This is a stage gimmick thats best used for looking threatening, which is a thrill, but not being actually harmful and easy to navigate. The impending threat of spikes and no ground is enough to give the sense of thrill, without actually being a danger to the player.

Again, this feels like something much more fit for the final stages. In fact, I would recommend moving it there exclusively, due to the epic feel of it.

Moving on to bosses.

The mini boss has some frustrating elements to it's pattern that should be addressed, and are thankfully easy to.

First off, the boss goes too high on the screen, to the point wher eyou cannot effectively hit him with a charge shot. When he camps up at the top where its not really possible to hit him effectively, it becomes frustrating, not necessarily difficult. I would suggest to lower his max allowed height, so that it is still possible to hit him with a charge shot. Failing that, you could code it so that after he does one action at the top, he automatically returns to the middle position. In fact, it may be worth trying to see if it works better if the AI is forced to move to a new height after every one or two attacks regardless of where he is. Or a combination of the two.

I would also change the falling rocks. Have them actually just cover the whole middle, instead of randomly falling in positions. Space them so they fall evenly enough to cover the entire middle. For visual variance, change their Y position a little when they're created, so they fall at different 'heights' but no more than 16 pizxels of variance. It could be as simple as a random chance 1/3 to get a set +0, +8, +16 variance. This would look more SNES X series retro anyway.

On to the Maverick boss himself.

For the most part this is pretty good, but as with the other there are a few things to change.

Firstly, the lava pillars. I like the idea, but there are a few things that should be changed, which don't impact gameplay at all. It all boils down to player guidance and information. Have the 'burners', defined as the floor blocks that look like a cylinder where the lava spout erupts from, flash completely orange, not jsut a small segment of them. It will make the animation much easier to see. It doesn't decrease the difficulty as much as the annoyance and frustration the player feels when he does not see the warning sign.

Along those lines, I would suggest to put arrows pointing upward, on the floor blocks between 'burners'. As this is the spot you need to run to, to avoid the lava splash anyway. It may be a subtle hint the player picks up, perhaps not even conciously, but improves the flow and direction of the battle.

On a related note, since the boss' lava splash sprites do damage you, the ones viewed earlier in the stage during the ride armor segment, which use the same sprite (I realize these flash and the boss ones don't but it's still inconsistent for using the same sprite), should also damage you to be consistent. Or, use different imagery for one or the other. However, I do think the added damage would be better. It would make the pillars more threatening to the ride armor, and wouldn't be as easy to pass without damage. I also think the pillar's contact damage should be higher to the ride armor. The boss' damage ratios are fine as is. Also, the leeway on contact to the lava fillar for the boss battle could stand to be reduced very slightly. It's a tight fit between the pillar and the closest falling lava ball.

Again related to the lava pillars, the boss falls too fast after wards, when he ends that pattern. This wouldn't be an issue if his contact damage hit box was smaller, but he will fall right on X and damage him (while turning around if I recall correctly) with little room for escape as a result. This is jsut a cheap hit, not true difficulty.

The crecent shots the boss throws out may need a little adjustment. The top one always seems to block my charged shot, and its hard to get a clean hit in, unless you use the smaller green charge shot, or the uncharged shot. It doesn't need much, just enough to get a clean hit in. You're punishing for improper movement with this attack, but should allow in clean hits if you're in no danger of being hit yourself. Alternatively, the second shot appears a moment after the first, or vice versa, giving a small opening to attack. I think appearing a split second after would be better than appearing before to keep the challenge up.

The jumping arc of the boss can sometimes be too quick to actually get out of. Perhaps just reduce the X movement speed for the boss' jump a tiny bit.

This is all I have for now. Again, very good work getting a solid demo rolling, but please do take these suggestions into consideration. I don't want this project to end up like Megaman Unlimited did. What a disaster that was.


Just remember this saying, that I live by for level design and difficulty balance:
When you think your game is just right, then it is too hard. When you think your game is challenging, it is way too hard.

Remember, there is always the potential for a "Hard Mode" later, even in a post release update.

Offline Eclipse

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2013, 11:38:38 PM »
After reading and thinking about various feedback, I agree that the level needs to be more balanced. After testing the level out numerous times ourselves, the level becomes easier and it's harder for us to judge whether something is too easy or too hard. Clearly, it's way too hard and we (as a team) are going to experiment different ways to keep it from frustrating the user to the point of quitting. Originally, we were thinking create this level and make an easy mode later. But perhaps making an easier level first and then hard mode later is a better option.

I am glad that so far the controls and X's physics are satisfying other than a few minor bugs. That was our main point of focus for a long time. Our next focus will be primarily on level design and enemies. I don't think we'll be redoing Scorch Raptor's level from the ground up any time soon, but it's always a possibility in the future if we decide it just doesn't fit.

We listened to many suggestions and are making the appropriate changes to accommodate them:

  • Lava will no longer be instant kill and it will move at a more reasonable speed.
  • The mid-boss now only has 2 levels of height so you always have room to hit him.
  • The blocks and spikes in the lava ascension part will be rearranged so that it's more forgiving if you make a mistake.

And that's just to name a few.

Offline thefallenalchemist

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2013, 01:52:14 AM »
Glad to hear it. Despite all my raving about the level, I really did enjoy playing the game and to be honest; I'm thankful to see that this got made.

I had such a nostalgia trip, that I installed all the old X games on my computer. (Still looking for cracks on the Korean RMX6 and RMX7 though. These games never got a US PC release like X1,3,4,5 and 8.)

Again, looking forward to the final.

Posted on: August 26, 2013, 07:25:32
side note: owns X Collection, Command Mission and X8. :) Also bought RKS and RKSF. (Added to stop thread derail.)

Offline Irregular Ass-R-Us

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2013, 04:13:47 AM »
I can Pm the cracks for X7 and X6 if you would like?

Offline thefallenalchemist

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2013, 04:21:51 AM »
sure. and thanks. the only reason i want to play them on PC is because they're the jap originals and I want to hear what x7 sounded like before we screwed it up in the  US.

Offline Irregular Ass-R-Us

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2013, 01:29:41 PM »
Glad were on the same page  8)

Offline Zan

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2013, 04:28:39 PM »
*sigh*


"Ki!  Ki ki ki ki!  Ki!"


Offline Irregular Ass-R-Us

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #59 on: August 28, 2013, 08:29:07 PM »
I sometimes get stuck on the door when you have to go to the lava room.

Offline Eclipse

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #60 on: August 28, 2013, 10:52:38 PM »
I'll need more specific information to fix this. I'm aware people are getting stuck, but I've never gotten stuck myself so I need to know what you guys did. Were you walking in normally? Dashing? Jumping? etc.

Offline Irregular Ass-R-Us

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #61 on: August 28, 2013, 11:28:20 PM »
when i go to the entrance of the downward level lava room, if i go forward and quickly go back the door closes and traps X inside the door and it stays like that forever until i reset the game.

Offline Eclipse

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #62 on: August 28, 2013, 11:47:44 PM »
Oh the lava pit door has been fixed so that it'll kill you. That'll be in the next update. I misread your post and thought you also were getting stuck in the boss room door.

Offline Irregular Ass-R-Us

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #63 on: August 28, 2013, 11:58:29 PM »
No problem, version 1.01 fixed the slowdowns i had before and it is really close to the original and i must say you did a amazing good job 8).

Offline Eclipse

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #64 on: August 29, 2013, 12:49:51 AM »
Really? That is very interesting. I believe I downgraded to an older GameMaker:Studio version to compile 1.01. I suppose I'll have to do that again for 1.02.

Offline Zan

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #65 on: August 29, 2013, 01:36:05 PM »
I'll need more specific information to fix this. I'm aware people are getting stuck, but I've never gotten stuck myself so I need to know what you guys did. Were you walking in normally? Dashing? Jumping? etc.

Got killed by the boss, then walked through the door. The animations plays, but X's forward momentum is lacking, leaving him stranded midway.

"Ki!  Ki ki ki ki!  Ki!"


Offline Eclipse

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #66 on: August 29, 2013, 08:59:23 PM »
Alright I'll see if I can figure out what's happening. The next update will feature a "I'm Stuck" button, which will kill X but not take away a life if you're stuck in a wall.

Edit: v1.02 released! http://mmxeclipse.blogspot.ca/2013/08/mmx-eclipse-demo-v102-released.html
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 12:07:57 AM by Eclipse »

Offline Irregular Ass-R-Us

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #67 on: August 31, 2013, 12:50:12 PM »
Thanks a lot.  8)

Offline Zan

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #68 on: August 31, 2013, 02:49:48 PM »
The new update definitely is an improvement in several regards, good job. Personally, however, I would ditch the Mac edits and put the Fire Scrivers back in. Also, the spike ceiling could stand to shake a little before it drops, and you may want to follow Objection Man's advice to add a moving floor 32 pixels below the lava.

"Ki!  Ki ki ki ki!  Ki!"


Offline Irregular Ass-R-Us

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #69 on: August 31, 2013, 05:47:23 PM »
Having fully played the demo, i will evaluate it and say what i think about it:

Gameplay: 10/10
The gameplay is fast paced, fluid and perfect. I have no complaints what so ever about this.

Music: 6/10
The music was okay. I did not quite like the stage song because it does not suit the level and feels kind of repetetive. The boss music on the other hand was really well done and i liked it 8). It felt Boss like so that was really done well. I think the stage music should be a combination of Blaze Heatnixs + Flame Stags themes because they are done really well for a lava type of stage.

Stage Design: 6.5/10
The first part of the stage kind of felt dull and empty, it did not seem like you were in a volcano. The second part however. Was done amazingly well. It definitely felt as if you were in a volcano kind of factory, it looked much better . I also liked the rising lava because it adds tension which is perfect for a fire type stage. The jump at the end with all the spikes was a really nice addition and i enjoyed that part a lot. I think that the first part of the stage should start at the top of the level and then keep going down, and the further you go the more the more harder it will get.

Boss: 9/10
The boss battle was really well made and it felt like a proper boss battle. The attack patterns and animations were done well and i also love the design of the boss, it looks really professional. The only problem i had with it which is really small, is that there is no indication through which lava pipe he is going to rise through. Thats the only problem i have because its hard to tell where he will go. Other than that its pretty much perfect.

Overall: 9/10
I enjoyed the demo. Even though it has small flaws, the game play really makes you forget that and makes you enjoy the game. This is just a demo so i know the full game will be perfect.

This what i think personally. Other may not agree with what i say but i have no problems with that because this is just what i think of it so far.

Good luck on the full game guys  8)

Offline thefallenalchemist

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Re: Megaman X : Eclipse
« Reply #70 on: September 06, 2013, 09:07:37 PM »
You fixed it, it's fun - it's manageable (I wish there were some more enemies after the lava, maybe a bat or two which would have it's destiny fulfilled by being smashed against the wall - seen it happen in many of the old X games) and I had a blast. Raptor whooped my acid burst the first time, but then once I got his pattern, he got gravity crushed.