X7-X8 never happend?

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Offline Zan

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Reply #100 on: April 12, 2010, 01:11:15 AM
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She asked an electronic elf, "Is there hope for us anywhere?" She felt the elf's whisper echo in her heart. She knew she must investigate the "historic ruins."

So, what does Passy know about Zero?


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When RZOCW came out and MMN (or was it Heat Man?) translated the three keys, and things like the virus turning Zero good, everyone said there's no way that what was written there was what they could have meant, it must have been poorly worded, or poorly translated. But it wasn't--that was literally what Inti meant to convey, and it is conveyed here again.

But Right didn't make the virus!

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he only thing that can settle this (or make things even more confusing) is for us to receive more information.

What about the statement in RPM about X7 and being in the ZERO-series?

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I would rather acknowledge that maybe the wording sounds so much like Zero sealed himself after X6 because that is exactly what they are trying to say.

Meaning X was created immediately after Rockman10, despite Dr. Right's age? Meaning Zero was made 1XX years before the ZERO-series?



Offline marshmallow man

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Reply #101 on: April 12, 2010, 01:27:29 AM
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So, what does Passy know about Zero?

Got me. They don't mention how Ciel and Passy met, either. Maybe Passy has been around since the Elf Wars and literally remembers Zero. Or maybe she just heard the legend and thought it their best hope.

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But Right didn't make the virus!

Thank goodness. But does that mean Inti didn't consider making it so?

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What about the statement in RPM about X7 and being in the ZERO-series?

Then this would finally be the answer to the question that the RPM book posed.

There's a ton of what abouts. What about the statements that said Sigma got the Virus directly from Zero? That Wily inserted the virus into Zero, and that Zero was initially the only one infected? What about Zero being a robot like X sealed 100 years ago? How old was Ciel when she built Copy X, and how did the Big 3 die? A retcon is a retcon.

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eaning X was created immediately after Rockman10, despite Dr. Right's age? Meaning Zero was made 1XX years before the ZERO-series?

Maybe.



Offline Fxeni

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Reply #102 on: April 12, 2010, 02:04:21 AM
I honestly don't see how this all doesn't make sense. They solved all the big issues in the timeline with this summary.
If that was true, there wouldn't be any confusion and "what about". At base value, people have to scramble around to make sense of it. There really shouldn't be a need to make sense of it to this degree. I speak not for myself, but the many others in this thread that are visibly confused and/or trying to figure out an explanation for some of the new tidbits that were given. Truth is, they'll change things wherever they see fit to change it. I stopped caring about these shenanigans right around the whole "Dr. Light made the virus" fiasco that so many people (including yourself, I do believe) spread around. That didn't turn out to be true, but it gives a good example of how quickly the perception of how the storyline works can change. The way I see it, it'll change again at some point, no matter how small the detail it may be. All these extra things we don't see happen in games are strongly subject to change, so I find it better just to focus on the stuff in the games themselves.



Offline Waifu

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Reply #103 on: April 12, 2010, 03:13:59 AM
I am way too lazy to see every post so is this a retcon or what?  :\



Offline Flame

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Reply #104 on: April 12, 2010, 03:57:56 AM
I am way too lazy to see every post so is this a retcon or what?  :\
We just dont know. it could be

A). a massive retconning of information,

or

B). very bad wording/writing.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline KoiDrake

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Reply #105 on: April 12, 2010, 04:26:13 AM
I pic the third secret option to fight against Bahamut


Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #106 on: April 12, 2010, 05:41:28 AM
That didn't turn out to be true, but it gives a good example of how quickly the perception of how the storyline works can change. The way I see it, it'll change again at some point, no matter how small the detail it may be.
And that's why I keep batting the Cataclysm around.  At one time, it made a lot of sense to a lot of people.  Even as new games and other materials come out, those people are going to see the new story through the lens of the Cataclysm and make it make sense in that regard.  If we want it to really be disproven, we need a game that shows the creation of Zero outright and what Dr. Wily first did with him rather than all this "and then a century later" murkiness.



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Reply #107 on: April 12, 2010, 05:51:02 AM
I pic the third secret option to fight against Bahamut
Nice FF8 reference there!

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Offline marshmallow man

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Reply #108 on: April 12, 2010, 06:23:42 AM
Rodrigo Shin awesomely pulled the text from the Zero Collection site, and found the not-yet-opened story sections for Zero 1-4. I'm not sure there's too much new information to be found there, but I translated it nonetheless. I had forgotten some of the details surrounding these games, so it was a good refresher.

レプリロイドを凶暴化させるΣウィルスの発生が発端となり、
長きに渡って繰り広げられた「イレギュラー戦争」。

その永遠に続くかと思われた戦いも、
ついにはひとりの英雄「エックス」の活躍によって終わりを告げ、
世界は復興の道を歩み始めた。

人間が幸せに生活することができるユートピアをめざし
再生の拠点として築き上げられた都市「ネオ・アルカディア」。



人々はようやく笑顔を取り戻せるかに見えたが…
しかしそこはレプリロイドのイレギュラー化を恐れる政府が、
不当な理由で次々とレプリロイド達を逮捕し処分していったからだ。
運良く処分を逃れたレプリロイド達は半壊した旧都市に隠れ、
そこに残るわずかなエネルギーを見つけ出し細々と暮らしていた。
そんな彼らと一緒に暮らす、科学者の少女「シエル」。

レプリロイドの開発に携わっていた彼女は、
政府によりイレギュラーの汚名を着せられ
処分される彼らを放っておけなかったのだ。
ささやかに生きていたそんな彼らにも、ついに政府の魔の手が迫る。
追い詰められるレプリロイド達。
このままでは、みんな死んでしまう。

シエルは、ある場所に今も眠っている
伝説のレプリロイド「ゼロ」の名を思い出した。


Zero 1 Story

The interminable conflict known as the "Irregular Wars" began with the Sigma Virus outbreak that caused repliroids to act violently.

The seemingly never-ending battle finally concluded thanks to the efforts of the lone hero "X", and the world began to walk the road to recovery.

The established center of this renaissance that sought to create a utopia where mankind could live in happiness became the city of "Neo Arcadia".

At last the humans were finally starting to smile once again... However, the government which feared the possibility for repliroids to turn irregular gradually began arresting and disposing of more and more repliroids on unreasonable charges. Some fortunate repliroids escaped being disposed of and hid themselves in the partially destroyed old city, where they discovered some remaining energy resources and establish a meager existence for themselves. Among that group clinging to life was a young female scientist named "Ciel".

She had been working on repliroid development, but she simply could not turn her back upon those who would be disposed for being labelled irregular by the government. They were able to make a modest living for a time, until finally the government's wicked influence came bearing down on them. The repliroids were driven into a corner. With the current state of things, it seemed every one of them would perish.

Ciel remembered a certain place where a legendary repliroid by the name of "Zero" was said to be sleeping even now.

シエルによって復活したゼロの活躍で、
ネオ・アルカディアを統治していたコピーエックスは倒された。
全滅の危機にさらされていたしシエルとレジスタンス達は、
その期を逃さず脱出し、ネオ・アルカディアの力が及ばない土地への逃亡を図る。

ゼロは、シエル達を逃すため、自らを囮とし、ネオ・アルカディアを引き付けた。
その甲斐あって、シエルや、レジスタンスの仲間達は、
ネオ・アルカディアの追求を逃れることができ、
体制を立て直すことができたが・・・


ゼロとは、離れ離れとなってしまった。

あれから一年・・・ゼロのことを心配しつつも、
シエルは、仲間を守るために懸命に働き、
ついに、新しいレジスタンスベースを建設するまでにいたる。

しかし、そのころゼロは・・

Zero 2 Story

After being revived by Ciel, Zero was able to defeat Copy X who had ruled over Neo Arcadia. Ciel and the Resistance had come too close to annihilation, and made plans to escape to a place where Neo Arcadia's power didn't reach.

To help Ciel and the others get away safely, Zero set out by himself, acting as a diversion to distract Neo Arcadia's attention. His gambit worked, and Ciel and the Resistance managed to escape Neo Arcadia's pursuit and reorganize their entire outfit, however...

They had become completely separated from Zero.

A year later... Though her concern for Zero had never diminished, Ciel had buried herself in her work of helping protect her comrades, and at last, the construction of the new Resistance Base was well underway.

But meanwhile, Zero was...

ダークエルフの悪夢も去り、
ネオ・アルカディアからの攻撃も沈静化してきたある日、
レジスタンスのもとに巨大な戦艦が雪原に落ちたという情報が入る。

その現場にダークエルフと同じ強力なエネルギー反応があると知ったシエルは、
ゼロとレジスタンスの仲間と共に調査に向かっていた。

一方、ネオ・アルカディアでは、
統治の象徴であったエックス(コピー)がゼロにより討たれた際、
人間の動揺を恐れ、その事実は隠された。


表向きは何も変わらぬ平和のまま、
エックスの代行をハルピュイアが務め、
実際の指揮を執っていたのだが・・・

新たに現れた謎の敵バイルとその8人の部下「バイル八審官ーバイル・ナンバーズ」
彼らは通常人間の姿を取り、エックス復活後新たに措かれた
「ネオ・アルカディア中央評議会」の理事として、
バイルを補佐している。
だが、それはあくまで仮の姿。

バイルに歯向かった者だけが、その真の姿を知ることになる・・・

Zero 3 Story

One day after the nightmare of the Dark Elf had passed, and even the attacks from Neo Arcadia had calmed, the Resistance obtained information that that a giant battleship had crashed into the snowfields.

Ciel learned that an enormous energy reading similar to the Dark Elf's was traced to the scene, and set out with Zero and her Resistance allies to investigate.

Meanwhile, in Neo Arcadia, the news that the symbolic ruler X (the Copy) had been slain by Zero had been concealed to avoid a panic by the humans.

By all outward appearances, all was peaceful and nothing had changed, Harpuia had taken on the duty of acting on X's behalf to ensure that the status quo was maintained, but...

X's revival marked the new arrival of the mysterious enemy Vile and his 8 subordinates, the "Vile Hachishinkan (Vile 8 Judges) - Vile Numbers", who appeared in the guise of ordinary humans and were appointed to the new advisory board the "Neo Arcadia Central Council" by Vile's suggestion.
But their appearances are merely skin deep.

Only those who defy Vile learn the true nature of their bodies...

バイルによる圧政でネオ・アルカディアは混乱状態に陥った。
自分に逆らうものを許さないバイルは、
さらに戦闘部隊を強化して治安にあたらせる。

人間とレプリロイドは、バイルの支配を受け入れるか、
荒野に逃げ出すかを選ばなければならなかった。


ゼロ達は、荒野に逃げ延びた人々やレプリロイドを、
ネオ・アルカディアからすくうため、
各地で戦闘を続けいていた。

ある時レプリロイドに襲われていたキャラバンを助ける。
キャラバンのリーダー、ネージュは
エリア・ゼロにある人間だけの集落を目指していることを語る。

そのころネオ・アルカディアは新たな作戦を実行に移そうとしていた・・・・・・


Zero 4 Story

Due to Vile's tyrannical rule, Neo Arcadia collapsed into a total state of confusion. Vile permitted no one to disobey him, and strengthened the armed forces in order to maintain public order.

Humans and repliroids faced a choice between accepting Vile's complete rule or chancing an escape to the wastelands.

Zero's group set out to aid the humans and repliroids who attempted to flee from Neo Arcadia to the wastelands, and subsequently fighting started breaking out all over the place. 

Once they helped save a Caravan that was being attacked by repliroids. The Caravan's leader Neige relayed her plan to create a human-only settlement at Area Zero.

It was around that time that Neo Arcadia changed tactics and put a new strategic operation into action.......



Offline Mirby

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Reply #109 on: April 12, 2010, 06:31:38 AM
Thanks, Stay-Puft.

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Offline Zan

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Reply #110 on: April 12, 2010, 09:35:26 PM
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But does that mean Inti didn't consider making it so?

Considering Inti said the complete opposite in this summary, it never crossed their mind. Rather, the opposite, Sigma Virus countermeasures in X, who's the originator of the suffering circuit. Of course, there's a lot to say for the fact that other Repliroids lack these countermeasures, and have a less than perfect suffering circuit.

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There's a ton of what abouts. What about the statements that said Sigma got the Virus directly from Zero? That Wily inserted the virus into Zero, and that Zero was initially the only one infected? What about Zero being a robot like X sealed 100 years ago?

If the statements are not written as in-story rumors or out of story speculation, then it should not be ignored. The 1XX years ago statement sounds far too much like a small labeling error if all those sources truly exist.

Also, I have some doubts about the way these sources are written as a historical retrospective from the conclusion of the ZERO-series' point of view. What with all the "political propaganda" and "lost centuries of history" that exists within the system and follows Neo Arcadia's destruction. It'd all be much nicer if it just made use of the familiar "20XX", "21XX", "22XX" method, as if those weren't vague enough.

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A retcon is a retcon.

The reason for retcon is to cancel out contradictions, that doesn't mean we as fans have to go about and make those contradictions ourselves. Only when things are absolutely written into a corner is retcon a mandatory answer. As long as we can reason our way out of that corner, then we should do so, and not invoke the name of retcon. Bringing up retcon here is just a cop-out excuse for angry gamers to vent their frustrations at the course a story has taken with its elements.

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If that was true, there wouldn't be any confusion and "what about". At base value, people have to scramble around to make sense of it.

In referring specifically to Inti's story, it solves the following three matters:
-Founding of Neo Arcadia
-Creation of Big4
-Yggdrasil sealing

Which were previously the three biggest unknowns with numerous of conflicting implications.

The existence of X7 and beyond as canon to the ZERO-series is up to the X-series to wholly decide. As it is the one that is still ongoing; the way it takes its course can make or break its connection to the known future.

As for the whole details revolving around Zero's turning good? I honestly don't think the exact technobabble behind it matters in the grand scheme of things, as long as we acknowledge basic cause and effect of both the events stated here, and the events of X5.

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I stopped caring about these shenanigans right around the whole "Dr. Light made the virus" fiasco that so many people (including yourself, I do believe) spread around

The moment of the RZOCW fiasco, I was out of the country, and had to deal with all that crap after the fact. At which point I immediately demanded an direct quote of the line that supposedly said such. The info then spread by MMN was simply their own interpretation quickly summarized, whereas the actual text is not at all that specific. Not to mention the complete disregard, at that time, for the "may not be canon"disclaimer that preceded that information.

After obtaining the direct translations of the text, I have since promoted an interpretation most in line with established canon, which in the case of major contradictions, does not retcon the canon due to the disclaimer that precedes it.

About the matter of Light creating the Virus, the text itself says that the true essence of Sigma Virus is a "suffering circuit" Right included into X. Before it goes on to explain what exactly a "suffering circuit" does within a Reploid. Then explaining this stuff about how Zero was first infected with the Sigma Virus and how Zero being an evil Reploid made by Wily was turned good by the Sigma Virus and spread it around the world, causing his admittance into the research institute.

Whenever the matter of "true essence of Sigma Virus" comes up, I say this: "whatever that means". It's a vague mention of a relation between two concepts that are each other's polar opposites. The "suffering circuit" causes X's "worrying", which is the root cause of his free will, which Sigma Virus stands opposite to. None of that says Light made the Virus. And the summary we have before us today pretty much denies that very idea.

It was all a case of jumping to conclusions without having a proper translation for everyone to judge by. And now we do have a proper translation for all to judge by.

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The way I see it, it'll change again at some point, no matter how small the detail it may be. All these extra things we don't see happen in games are strongly subject to change, so I find it better just to focus on the stuff in the games themselves.

Doesn't really work that way when people's conclusion jumping leads to whole games being supposedly retconned out.

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If we want it to really be disproven, we need a game that shows the creation of Zero outright and what Dr. Wily first did with him rather than all this "and then a century later" murkiness.

We saw that in X4; created in his capsule and sealed away immediately following that. Didn't stop people from inventing the cataclysm to begin with.



Offline Rodrigo Shin

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Reply #111 on: April 12, 2010, 11:17:44 PM
ITT: we don't see what's written, we see what we want to see written.

But what else is new anyway?

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The reason for retcon is to cancel out contradictions
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a retcon is a last resort to erase a contradiction
Guys, please let me know when did Gwen Stacy getting retroactively impregnated with Goblin Twins solve any contradiction whatsoever and didn't create a whole set of new ones. TTFN

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Offline Acid

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Reply #112 on: April 12, 2010, 11:23:45 PM
But what else is new anyway?

Conan O'Brien might come back.



Offline Flame

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Reply #113 on: April 12, 2010, 11:50:09 PM
Conan O'Brien might come back.
Really?

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #114 on: April 13, 2010, 12:09:51 AM
The Hunters knew Zero was infected with the Sigma Virus during X5, and at that same time they recognized that while he did not register a "Maverick reading" his power output grew in response. That itself was enough to lead Signas to believe Zero had the virus antibodies inside him, and that itself would be reason enough for the governing humans to want to have him decommissioned and dissected. We saw Signas order this information be kept secret, but some Lifesavers shared that info with X, and who knows who else. And that's all before Isoc announced to the entire world that some ghost of Zero was responsible for spreading the Nightmare virus.
Suspicious circumstances surrounding Zero weren't new to the Nightmare, though, as you yourself pointed out a lot of this was discussed before X6.  Heck, even Gate calls the Hunters out on it, that Zero's unknown nature carries great risk and yet the Hunters refuse to dispose of him as they did Gate's own works.

But see, by bringing to light what the Hunters knew prior to X6, you only establish what Inti is not talking about.  For them to reference the Nightmare incident, and not Eurasia (which is already mentioned in this timeline, not to mention a major contributor to the storyline of Z4), says that something beyond what the Hunters had established in X5 came to light.

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So instead of just repeating that process of "that can't be what they really meant," and trying to find loopholes by which to hold on to our old conceptions as cataclysm fans have been doing for over a decade, I would rather acknowledge that maybe the wording sounds so much like Zero sealed himself after X6 because that is exactly what they are trying to say.
There is a tremendous difference between justifying fan-based conjecture such as the cataclysm and trying to reconcile all officially video game sourced information as has been presented to us.  To discard theory is one thing; to discard the games themselves should be done only as a last resort.

And I can't speak for anyone else, but you needn't explain the value of a branching timeline to me.  Before ZX I was among the more adamant fans suggesting that Legends may continue off of Eurasia impacting Earth, and frankly the fanfic-daydreaming of that scenario never stopped anyway.

But if they did that here, then to what end?  As a matter of pattern recognition I just don't see breaking from X6 as something Inticreates would do.  As off-the-wall as their storytelling gets, they enjoy throwing obscure references out there, such as B&C and RM&FWS.  They worked hard towards maintaining Legends as the eventual future without writing themselves into a corne.  And, I will re-iterate *AGAIN*, if their true intention was to write X7-XCM, or even XCM alone, out of the Zero-series timeline, why have they not adopted the date of 22XX for the Zero-series events?  It'd be a lot less outrageous than their estimate of the birth of Zero.

I've been wrong before.  But even if they would, nothing says they did.  As Zan said, a retcon is a last resort to erase a contradiction; not a cop-out answer to contradictions that the fans create.  Retconning out full games is simply the fans jumping to conclusions.

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Reply #115 on: April 13, 2010, 12:16:12 AM
And, apparently, it has fallen to you and Zan to clear up this whole mess. RETCON HUNTERS GO! ZAN, HYPERSHELL, GO! FOR GREAT JUSTICE!

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Reply #116 on: April 13, 2010, 12:17:01 AM
Aarf!

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Offline Fxeni

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Reply #117 on: April 13, 2010, 02:30:19 AM
In referring specifically to Inti's story, it solves the following three matters:
-Founding of Neo Arcadia
-Creation of Big4
-Yggdrasil sealing

Which were previously the three biggest unknowns with numerous of conflicting implications.
That would all be fine and dandy, if there weren't still some conflicting implications. One such example would be the Creation of the Big 4 presented here, which conflicts with their Shining Arms in particular. In the way it's presented here, it seems that the Big 4 were created after the Elf Wars, although beforehand it was implicated that they were fighting in said wars. There's still kinks Inti/Capcom needs to work out.

Doesn't really work that way when people's conclusion jumping leads to whole games being supposedly retconned out.
Yes... conclusions from information that isn't presented in the games. All this extra information they're giving is interesting, however a lot of it is based upon material that they thought up while making the games. Now, I'm willing to bet that a lot of this information wasn't thought out completely back in the day, and they're playing "fill in the gaps" over time to make it official. The problem with that is that it doesn't take much to throw things out of balance, especially when people misconstrue things quite easily. Speaking of which, I wasn't working to discredit you on the RZOCW fiasco nonsense. I was pointing out how easy it is for things to be taken completely out of context, especially when the information is being continually developed over time. Working in this fashion it's rather easy to make inconsistencies unintentionally, and it doesn't help when the fanbase is trying to make more of it than they should. Thing is, Inti/Capcom don't really have a choice but to work in such a manner, due to the way making and selling games works.

Now, the smart way to go about this (from a storytelling point of view) would be to finalize all that information internally before they release it. They're not working from a storytelling point of view as the main focus though; they're keeping everything open so that they can make more sequels. So they're slowly working it out on the side, not being sure if they'll ever be able to use it in a game or if all this information will even be considered correct down the line once more games in the various Rockman series are made. This is Inti/Capcom trying to keep people's interest alive without actually committing a large sum of money to it. To treat it as finalized information probably isn't the best of ideas.

Which brings me back to my initial point again... I personally don't care what they say outside of the games, because it's all subject to change. All your reasoning doesn't change this fact.



Offline Zan

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Reply #118 on: April 13, 2010, 03:04:32 AM
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That would all be fine and dandy, if there weren't still some conflicting implications. One such example would be the Creation of the Big 4 presented here, which conflicts with their Shining Arms in particular. In the way it's presented here, it seems that the Big 4 were created after the Elf Wars, although beforehand it was implicated that they were fighting in said wars. There's still kinks Inti/Capcom needs to work out.

The Shining Arms were specifically used by the "top irregular hunter(s)" of the irregular wars. X wielded at least two of them. And the Big4 are made from his soul, DNA, parts. If not Neo Arcadian propaganda, the Shining Arms are more than likely wielded by X. If not other wielders.

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Which brings me back to my initial point again... I personally don't care what they say outside of the games, because it's all subject to change. All your reasoning doesn't change this fact.

It's different when said information is officially released, though. I can see interviews changing whenever, but not actual information accompanying a game release.



Offline marshmallow man

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Reply #119 on: April 13, 2010, 06:50:02 PM
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Considering Inti said the complete opposite in this summary, it never crossed their mind. Rather, the opposite, Sigma Virus countermeasures in X, who's the originator of the suffering circuit. Of course, there's a lot to say for the fact that other Repliroids lack these countermeasures, and have a less than perfect suffering circuit.

That's contemporary conjecture, not from the standpoint of the times. The virus turning Zero good was a radical and unheard of idea in 2006. When you're talking about the virus turning Zero good back then, it could just as easily become a Suffering Circuit program "virus" leaking from X's capsule that spread to Zero and infected him. The use of the suffering circuit to make reploids question whether either side is truly right or wrong is exactly the kind of thing that could turn a bad violent dude into a thoughtful justice-driven guy. But this was dismissed by us back then because we dismissed the premise, that the virus turned Zero good. Up until last week or so, we were still rejecting it.

Now we're told in an official capacity that Zero was turned good by the virus. We have other call to dismiss that particular aspect of suffering circuit's role as a direction that was not followed, but we can not say that years before MM10 was around that Inti was not thinking of taking things in that vein. The idea that the suffering circuit is in some way part of X's perfect virus counter-measure is itself still conjecture at this point.

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But see, by bringing to light what the Hunters knew prior to X6, you only establish what Inti is not talking about.  For them to reference the Nightmare incident, and not Eurasia (which is already mentioned in this timeline, not to mention a major contributor to the storyline of Z4), says that something beyond what the Hunters had established in X5 came to light.

The passage in the timeline seemed to already lay it out for us. The conditions were these:

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“The Nightmare Incident” occurs, an event where a subspecies of the Sigma Virus that attracts attention as the Nightmare Virus spreads throughout the world. The fact was proven that Zero was it source, as he was a carrier of the Sigma Virus, and was contagious to his surroundings as he worked across the world as a Hunter.

Zero as the source of the Nightmare was expressed first by Isoc to the entire world, then confirmed by Gate himself to the Hunters. Zero was known to be a Sigma virus carrier by the end of X5, but Zero refused to get fully checked out at that time, instead pressing on until the battle with Sigma was settled, and subsequently disappeared for the weeks leading directly into X6. The last issue, that Zero is contagious to his environs, is the only precursor that we might be able to toy with. Even though they knew Zero had the Sigma virus in him and was the basis for the Nightmare, it does not necessarily lend itself to believing that Zero is contaminating the world around him. It is a logical conjecture based on the first two points, and one would think it was an important question that they would want to be answered, but maybe somehow they missed this key point which is perhaps the most damning to Zero's condition. Zero himself seemed to recognize the danger his very existence presented in his X5 ending where he discovers the meaning of his dreams, but perhaps he's forgotten that information post his revival. Certainly no one treats Zero as though he's hazardous and constantly spreading a deadly virus in X7~on. Perhaps they do not recognize this yet, and the X series will continue until they do. I believe that is currently the best shot for keeping X7, X8, and to a more difficult extent XCM in the timeline. But that's all from searching for a loophole that would serve my hypothesis and refusing to accept the face value of the new information given.

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The reason for retcon is to cancel out contradictions, that doesn't mean we as fans have to go about and make those contradictions ourselves. Only when things are absolutely written into a corner is retcon a mandatory answer. As long as we can reason our way out of that corner, then we should do so, and not invoke the name of retcon. Bringing up retcon here is just a cop-out excuse for angry gamers to vent their frustrations at the course a story has taken with its elements.


A retcon is usually the cause of the contradiction that it is supposedly canceling out, so far as I can tell. Capcom and Inti have yet to write a manifesto that guarantees they feel the same way about retcons as you do. The fans weren't the ones who wrote the Zero Collection's page to read the way it does. Inti did not have to group Zero's sealing with the Nightmare Incident in their timeline, nor mention it again in X's bio. But they did. And to be fair, the idea they are either purposefully or accidentally presenting there should be explored rather than outright denied.

If it makes you feel better, don't call it a retcon. Ask whether they ever actually said that X7 and on were part of the Zero timeline before, or whether we only assumed they were. If they didn't state that earlier, then call it a "late reveal" or however you excuse it to yourself.

Rockman Perfect Memories posed the question of how Zero could be sealed in his X6 ending and still appear in X7. It also asked when and how Zero's 100 year sleep (now perhaps reduced to 50) would be applied, which allowed us our leeway to believe that this particular ending would occur at a later occasion at the ending of the X series. The book also said the key to putting things together would be found in X7 when it came out. But X7 was still in development at the time, and wouldn't release for over half a year later.

Perhaps that plan also changed since then, because when it did come out, X7 just made it that much more confusing. It did not say anything directly about Zero's sealing. It gave some cryptic references to be interpreted, like Zero's ending where he dreams of X trying to eliminate him, or Anteator's bizarre "memories of the future/false images of the past" comments that sounded reminiscent to the concepts in the Zero series. It also mirrored Zero 2's intro boss, with how in both stages Zero is forced to battle a giant scorpion mechaniloid. Can we say we understand what message was being sent there? Does Zero's data somehow contain prophetic glimpses into the future, or does Zero dream of the events of a parallel world?

Then came the Compendium of Rockman X, which repeats that the Zero series is thought to follow the 100 year sleep ending of X6, and yet marks the event with a "?" on Zero's personal record between X6 and X7. Not much better for clarity's sake. Is the question mark denoting that it takes place at an uncertain later time, or that the event may or may not take place at all, as in a branching timeline event?

And then we have MXOCW's comment that Capcom artist Higurashi thought that the Zero series was taking place in 22XX, while he was working on Command Mission. Apparently in a parallel world sort of way, since there's not much leeway for Z1 to take place in 22XX if the 100 year seal took place after Command Mission. Was he just really confused about things, or was his thinking based on the already known to him premise that Zero and Command Mission are separate timelines?

Not that it in any way proves or disproves the point, but split timeline theories have been pretty popular among Japanese fans for years (as fan sites like this and this demonstrate). After shuffling through a few Japanese blog reactions to the Zero Collection site, they're having more trouble with accepting things the virus coming from Zero's capsule and turning Zero good, Ciel needing her visor to interact with Cyber Elves, and the Big 4 being parts recent reincarnations of X's partitioned soul than they are dealing with the snubbing of the late X series. Perhaps it's time we unlearn what we have learned and examine why we're trying to prove their connectedness in the first place.

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But if they did that here, then to what end?  As a matter of pattern recognition I just don't see breaking from X6 as something Inticreates would do.  As off-the-wall as their storytelling gets, they enjoy throwing obscure references out there, such as B&C and RM&FWS.  They worked hard towards maintaining Legends as the eventual future without writing themselves into a corne.

We're talking about the same Inti that created a timeline split right off the bat for ZX? Vent>Ashe/Aile>Grey's parallel worlds divulged and continued simultaneously into the future, and they don't seem to bothered--they'll get to Legends either way (and perhaps when you're dealing with a connection that's thousands of years separated, the only way they could really "mess up" the Legends bridge is if they blow up the entire Earth Alderaan style, but there might even be workarounds to that). We already know that not every obscure reference is one of canonical relevance. It just puts the obscure references to X7 and such at the same level as the references they made to the EXE series.

X7, X8, XCM would still be canonical to themselves and each other, and X1-6 could continue to be canonical to both X7+ and Zero+. What it would do is allow the X series to write itself a new future, take things in a completely different story direction (which is something they have been doing already, but here could do so without a timetable or future prerequisite to stay within). They can rebuild the world differently than how it happens in the Zero series. They never have to have an Elf War at all, technology can branch out in different ways (like Force Metal and Copy Chips). They could even kill off X or Zero--for real this time!--if they so wanted. Axl doesn't have to disappear. The X series can go on for centuries, perhaps eventually arriving at Legends in its own way, perhaps not. The X series would be free.

To a really push the envelope, perhaps the history and events of the Zero series don't even have to be the same as the history of the X series. By that I mean, perhaps in the Zero series timeline Zero was spreading the virus contagiously, while perhaps in the X series version he isn't. Perhaps while in the Zero universe, Zero was infected from his own capsule by some ancient stowaway virus, while in the X universe Wily put the virus into him on purpose.  I don't actually want to push things that far and make them that complicated, but it would be another potential option for the removal of certain contradictions with past books that we've been given over to. Only, the mess it would make in figuring out what is canon to what series would probably always boil down to "we just don't know for sure, look at it how you want." But there's a fanon element to everything we're doing. If we could create the canon, we'd be Capcom. Instead we just view it and ponder.




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Reply #120 on: April 13, 2010, 06:59:41 PM
But there's a fanon element to everything we're doing. If we could create the canon, we'd be Capcom. Instead we just view it and ponder.

But it's such an interesting & fun fanon to read, Marshy!



Offline Zan

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Reply #121 on: April 13, 2010, 08:07:12 PM
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Now we're told in an official capacity that Zero was turned good by the virus.

We're told in an official capacity "in more detail", might I add. At times, we should accept where vagueness exists. Instead of debating ourselves into contradiction. This time around we're given vital pieces of info that allow us to make sense of the "turned good by the virus" scenario". A particular contribution being the reason for Zero's sealing. We should still however reconcile that with X5, which at face value implicates the complete opposite happening.

In other aspects of this site's summary, details are sorely absent, though. And it's the lack of details that's causing contradictions such as Light's age at the time of X's creation. Reconciled with our understanding of the series, we take it to mean that Light incorporated the virus countermeasure idea because of events similar to Rockman10's, into the project to create X, which was already conceptualized as early as Power Battle, but would not be completed for such a long time that Dr. Light would die of old age shortly following X's completion.

All in all, there are times when we shouldn't get so stuck up on worded implications of time; it IS just a summary, it condenses time by its very definition.

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And to be fair, the idea they are either purposefully or accidentally presenting there should be explored rather than outright denied.

And the opposite is also true; we shouldn't outright deny the relevance of these games toward the ZERO-series, in a either a split or non-split timeline for that matter. Whether a split has occurred or not, even if that future is never ever reached; the ZERO-series influences the elements of the X-series, and the X-series influences them right back. Even if an alternate one, these visions of the past and future paint each other. From the appearance of Orbital Elevators in X to the use of copy abilities in ZX and so on.

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We're talking about the same Inti that created a timeline split right off the bat for ZX?

But also the same Inti that desperately included X6 into a story which was supposed to go from X5. Strange they would turn things up side down for one X game, then not bother with subsequent X-series titles at all...

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they're having more trouble with accepting things the virus coming from Zero's capsule and turning Zero good, Ciel needing her visor to interact with Cyber Elves, and the Big 4 being parts recent reincarnations of X's partitioned soul than they are dealing with the snubbing of the late X series.,

Well, they're not the ones with the fanbase that jumps at every chance to disown games they don't like. I'm fine with the notion of a split timeline, what I'm not fine with is the childish attitude the fanbase has taken here. As I said before, even if we go with a spit timeline, events highly similar to the continuing X-series have to happen anyway; we can never fully disregard the games, not even with a split.

As for all the other problems, pretty much the same things we're dealing with it seems. Though, I think a couple of those ideas might have existed all along. The Big4 and X's soul fragmenting seems very much like an afterthought, but... the details behind Zero turning good; something tells me Inti wasn't the one that thought that one up.



Offline marshmallow man

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Reply #122 on: April 13, 2010, 09:08:55 PM
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In other aspects of this site's summary, details are sorely absent, though. And it's the lack of details that's causing contradictions such as Light's age at the time of X's creation. Reconciled with our understanding of the series, we take it to mean that Light incorporated the virus countermeasure idea because of events similar to Rockman10's, into the project to create X, which was already conceptualized as early as Power Battle, but would not be completed for such a long time that Dr. Light would die of old age shortly following X's completion.

That's one solution for that problem. Another might be saying that MHX is canon to the newer X series but not the Zero series. From the original X1, we only know that Dr. Light wasn't expecting to live for another full 30 years for the tests to finish. Without the imagery from Day of Sigma, Light can seal X as a younger man than was shown there. Of course, this is a good deal more complicated than the above solution. I do think that with or without a split timeline, saying it's X's design blueprints and not his construction that was completed around MM10 is the easiest solution.

I guess even that is getting ahead of ourselves, since even though it seems the most obvious solution, nothing but the subtitle has thus far connected that Roboenza is the computer virus from space. It's certainly a logical step to make, but...

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And the opposite is also true; we shouldn't outright deny the relevance of these games toward the ZERO-series, in a either a split or non-split timeline for that matter. Whether a split has occurred or not, even if that future is never ever reached; the ZERO-series influences the elements of the X-series, and the X-series influences them right back. Even if an alternate one, these visions of the past and future paint each other. From the appearance of Orbital Elevators in X to the use of copy abilities in ZX and so on.

And Classic, X and Legends influenced EXE, and Star Force 2 seems based around Super Adventure Rockman, but drawing and sharing inspirations is irrelevant to whether or not the certain games tie into an ordered system. No doubt they draw influences, but are the plotlines literally connected and leading from one into one another? That's the value relevant to the discussion. Some of them could be: but how can we say for sure they are? That's why I say we need more information to make the judgment. Unless that judgment has been reserved for the fans to interpret individually, as other things have been said to be.

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But also the same Inti that desperately included X6 into a story which was supposed to go from X5. Strange they would turn things up side down for one X game, then not bother with subsequent X-series titles at all...

The ending seems entirely written for the purpose of leading into the Zero series, so perhaps it isn't that strange. I imagine that since it was the Capcom team that came up with that ending, it was Capcom's decision for the Zero series to utilize it for the lead-in. Capcom retconned X5's endings to make X6 in the first place, and maybe a splitting of the timelines also falls to them. Inti does have to get their approval with the things they do with the franchise, is my understanding. No blame should really befall Inti that isn't shared with Cappy.



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Reply #123 on: April 16, 2010, 07:32:34 PM
Over the next week or two I don't intend to have as much time as usual to sit in front of the comp, so I'm going to limit my response here to what was specifically addressed to me.

Zero as the source of the Nightmare was expressed first by Isoc to the entire world, then confirmed by Gate himself to the Hunters.

Isoc and Gate spoke in very different capacities.  Gate admitted that he created the Nightmare based on his research on Zero.  Isoc claimed that the Nightmare actually was Zero, as in, Zero was directly responsible.  You're blending two very different stories together and claiming them to lead to a single end whereas in fact the two are not even compatible, and thus your point could not possibly be more invalid.  Gate's word, and Gate's alone, holds.  Isoc's does not.  The mere fact that Zero exists separate from the Nightmare invalidates Isoc's announcement.

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Zero was known to be a Sigma virus carrier by the end of X5
You're neglecting the Colony/Zero virus, with data so similar to Zero's (hence Alia herself naming it), it suggests that in this instance the virus was being tailored towards him.  Sigma lends credit to this by naming Zero as the goal of the entire Eurasia incident.  While Zero's reaction to the Sigma Virus is unusual, events after Eurasia blew hold for the specific virus strain released at that time.  Zero himself knew he was gaining power in response to the Sigma Virus alone.  The Hunters did not; Lifesaver was suspicious of Zero's reaction to antiviruses.  Signas, even in the face of that, was not willing to label Zero as a threat, instead suggesting that Zero may have built up his own resistance.

That Zero can be exploited is old news; it's been happening since X2.  What is key to Zero's seal is when the leap is made from the enemy being able to use him, which the Hunters already know, to Zero's mere presence constituting a threat, which they do not.

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The last issue, that Zero is contagious to his environs, is the only precursor that we might be able to toy with.
Besides the fact that previous issues were not as concrete are you're presenting, this particular issue is also the most critical, as it is a survivor from Three Keys we know for a fact that it's early concept being reinforced.

I'll also put forward this notion: To split the timeline at X6 requires X6 itself to present the split.  It only works if X6 itself suggests it, and the "completed Zero ending" makes no explanation as to why Zero is being sealed.  No additional information is gained while playing as Zero that does not come forward while playing as X.  Thus we have a problem: While it is perfectly plausible for a change in Zero's judgment to bring about an early seal, that is not in the least what Inti told us.  By telling us that it became known that Zero is inadvertently spreading the virus, Zero's seal cannot take place in the middle of the X-series unless that has come to light.  At no point in X6 was that so.

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Zero himself seemed to recognize the danger his very existence presented in his X5 ending where he discovers the meaning of his dreams, but perhaps he's forgotten that information post his revival.
Or he realized that even when he is not present others will still try to abuse him, which is exactly what happened with Gate.

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But that's all from searching for a loophole that would serve my hypothesis and refusing to accept the face value of the new information given.
I find the complete opposite to be true.  Your hypothesis of ditching X7+ is based on a great deal of conjecture and lack of detail; it is in no way more valid than the alternative.  Inticreates didn't just name the Nightmare, they named the rationale by which the Nightmare is linked.  If this rationale has not been presented yet, then the seal has not happened yet.  Your proposed explanation for how it has been presented in X5/X6 is severely lacking in consistency and, by your own admission, cannot accommodate the final key (the discovery of Zero spreading the virus) leading to Zero's seal.

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We're talking about the same Inti that created a timeline split right off the bat for ZX?

That's a very apples-and-oranges comparison you're making.  ZX's split maintained both forks simultaneously, and both by Inticreates.  It's akin to X4 except without the sequel attempting to merge the two immediately.  The fact that both are expanded on equally justifies them in itself.  It allows some flexibility for player preference, and also allows Inti to explore the series backstory from different angles (in ZX, Vent focuses on Zero-series links, while Aile focuses on the more recent past).

The X-series, however, lacks current development, which discredits your "freeing the series" idea.  By refusing to name MMZ's century (something I have brought up repeatedly and you have been either unwilling or unable to explain), Inti has still maintained enough leeway that the X-series can do whatever it wants without dropping any games.  Even if they were to split, XCM limits the main X-series to 21XX anyway, not that a date change would accomplish much.  And killing the heroes?  Nobody in their right mind does that with a playable character, lest we get the suspiciously similar replacement for the fans to [sonic slicer] about.  If Capcom were honestly open to that they would have had X take the series solo at X6, but they know better.  Meanwhile, they can kill any other character they wish (including Sigma, as we're well aware), since none of the supporting cast appears in XCM.  I'm quite certain they did that on purpose.

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Offline Zan

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Reply #124 on: April 16, 2010, 10:34:06 PM
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but drawing and sharing inspirations is irrelevant to whether or not the certain games tie into an ordered system.

That wasn't my point, though. With a split timeline, the ZERO-series backstory and the current storyline arc in the X-series would occur in the same span of time. In that span of time, the major elements which are reused from X8/XCM to ZXA, from ZERO to X8/XCM, very much acknowledge a similar history, even if there are key differences. We can never see X7~XCM as wholly mutually exclusive from ZERO/ZX.

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The mere fact that Zero exists separate from the Nightmare invalidates Isoc's announcement.

Exactly, and the Zero Nightmare was destroyed by X, who wanted to clear his friend's name. You'd think any negative opinions about Zero would be thrown out the window by that point.

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cannot accommodate the final key (the discovery of Zero spreading the virus) leading to Zero's seal.

I think this part is very important, as it is the one aspect that only we as the player saw. Nobody else knows the source for Gate's irregularity.