Sonic the Hedgehog 4 (Wii, PS3, 360, iPhone)

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Offline Ramzal

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Reply #1225 on: August 30, 2010, 02:39:13 PM
Wow. People actually wait for, and care about new and upcoming Sonic games. I gotta wonder, what does Sega have to do to make die hard Sonic fans go: "Okay, now I'm just setting my money on fire."



Offline Kieran

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Reply #1226 on: August 30, 2010, 03:22:40 PM
I'm sure there's no way in hell anybody would buy this if it wasn't a downloadable title and therefore far cheaper than average.

As for the "burning money" thing, I'm already at that point with the main Sonic series.  The only way I'm ever playing Colors is if I pirate the disc.

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Reply #1227 on: August 30, 2010, 03:53:17 PM
I'm sure there's no way in hell anybody would buy this if it wasn't a downloadable title and therefore far cheaper than average.

As for the "burning money" thing, I'm already at that point with the main Sonic series.  The only way I'm ever playing Colors is if I pirate the disc.
I actually would buy both games if they look good and have good reviews.



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Reply #1228 on: August 31, 2010, 01:55:59 AM
I wouldn't trust a Sonic review if my life depended on it...  Submit to the judgment of the people who called Heroes an improvement over the Adventures?  HELL no.

I'm sure there's no way in hell anybody would buy this if it wasn't a downloadable title and therefore far cheaper than average.

That is, with all due respect, marketing bullshit.  The episodic approach means that the game in its entirety will probably ballpark around 40 bucks, and never adjust pricing based on the market.  A disc-based Sonic game falls to 20 in well under a year.

If Sega had any real brass they'd have followed Nintendo's example and offered the whole damn game on a disc, even if it was a retro sidescroller "revival" (it amazes me that such a move is considered "playing it safe" for Big N, while it has a snowball's chance in hell of being deemed fiscally sound for any other company).

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Reply #1229 on: August 31, 2010, 02:35:37 AM
You shouldn't lump all of the reviewers in one basket just because of the Adventure debacle. They've been pretty much right about Sonic ever since.



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Reply #1230 on: August 31, 2010, 02:57:12 AM
That wasn't just a one-time thing, though, they've continued to tear into the Dreamcast titles long since, including during Shadow reviews (which ironically enough makes Shadow sound a lot better than it is).  You know me well enough to know that's not my only issue with them, as well.  Maybe for you their track record's been decent, but for me, I don't buy Secret Rings > Black Knight either.  And whether you do believe that or not, their quality is a lot more comparable than most reviewers will admit.

Nor do I believe that Dimps sidescrollers are the be-all end-all of hope for new-age Sonic.  Rush games are fine and dandy, but they're not without their hiccups.  And frankly I didn't find either of them all that much more enjoyable than either Storybook game.

It's hard to read a Sonic review and not see a double standard.  Even when the game they're reviewing is genuinely bad, they have a tendancy to over-hammer it.  The journalists simply believe that Sonic belongs as a sidescroller single-player racer with a dash attack, and have no real standards beyond that.

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Offline Flame

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Reply #1231 on: August 31, 2010, 03:29:44 AM
THEY suck balls at Unleashed's daytime segments, jumping into bottomless pits and generally playing like a 2 year old with ADD, and therefore, suddenly, its "bad level design", or, "Sonic is too fast"  :\

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


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Reply #1232 on: August 31, 2010, 05:49:12 AM
THEY suck balls at Unleashed's daytime segments, jumping into bottomless pits and generally playing like a 2 year old with ADD, and therefore, suddenly, its "bad level design", or, "Sonic is too fast"  :\
I have that opinion. Unleashed's levels are a textbook of bad level design. And the gameplay's awful. Sonic can just run, he can't walk or gain speed, he pretty much just has one single speed. The level design's something that you would see on some kind of bad romhack. Reviewers agree, and alot of gamers agree.

That wasn't just a one-time thing, though, they've continued to tear into the Dreamcast titles long since, including during Shadow reviews (which ironically enough makes Shadow sound a lot better than it is).  You know me well enough to know that's not my only issue with them, as well.  Maybe for you their track record's been decent, but for me, I don't buy Secret Rings > Black Knight either.  And whether you do believe that or not, their quality is a lot more comparable than most reviewers will admit.

Nor do I believe that Dimps sidescrollers are the be-all end-all of hope for new-age Sonic.  Rush games are fine and dandy, but they're not without their hiccups.  And frankly I didn't find either of them all that much more enjoyable than either Storybook game.

It's hard to read a Sonic review and not see a double standard.  Even when the game they're reviewing is genuinely bad, they have a tendancy to over-hammer it.  The journalists simply believe that Sonic belongs as a sidescroller single-player racer with a dash attack, and have no real standards beyond that.
I actually haven't seen any reviews of the recent games that say anything about the old Dreamcast titles, to be honest. I've had the chance to try out Black Knight and Secret Rings recently, and found Black Knight to have atrocious level design and mostly gimmick-based gameplay which didn't make sense, while Secret Rings had halfway decent level design and average but very unresponsive gameplay.

The Advance/Rush games may be alot of things, but they don't suffer from any of the problems the new games do. They have good and intuitive level design, their gameplay actually FITS the levels, and they're at least games which fit in nowadays' basic gaming standards, something I'm not able to say for other recent Sonic games. And don't put all of the journalists on the same bowl. Tons of them have very good reviews.



Offline Klavier Gavin

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Reply #1233 on: September 02, 2010, 09:24:43 PM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFNIgxtLBho[/youtube]

IGN preview



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Reply #1234 on: September 02, 2010, 10:03:41 PM
Looks like the mine carts are in regular levels this time 'round. Awesome!



Offline Waifu

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Reply #1235 on: September 03, 2010, 03:11:05 AM
But you should never trust a trailer as it always lies.......sort of.



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Reply #1236 on: September 03, 2010, 03:40:54 AM
But you should never trust a trailer as it always lies.......sort of.
But obvious stuff can be checked well. =P



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Reply #1237 on: September 03, 2010, 10:58:09 PM
I actually haven't seen any reviews of the recent games that say anything about the old Dreamcast titles, to be honest.
Every review which generalizes 3D Sonic indirectly does so.  Further, I've seen some go so far as to label STH3 as the "beginning of the end" back when it was re-released on Virtual Console, which is completely nonsensical considering that if you ask ANYONE their favorite 2D Sonic game, one of the 3 possible answers you will get is S3&K (STH2 and SCD being the others).

Further, I have read today, Sonic Colors multiplayer previews that claim Sonic co-op was only done properly in STH2.  Explain to me the logic behind that one.

Your level design comments on Black Knight and Rush leave me to believe that you're gauging them based on the early game.  Black Knight has ludicrously straightforward levels to start but gets more platforming-involved as you progress, with several stages making heavy use of stunts and well-timed jump cancels to fly over hazards (which are CONSIDERABLY more visible than Secret Rings' obstacles).  The level-up system is a lot better conceived in BK as well, considering you will not be penalized based on control sensitivity preferences that range all the way from molasses to practically teleporting to the opposite side of the screen, nor will you ever need to re-check your upgrade list to disable features that interfere with your current mission objective (who the HELL thought of avoiding spheres?).  Speaking of which, Secret Rings can be very hit-or-miss in its mission objectives in general.  Black Knight is a lot more solid in that regard, although the "avoid townspeople" ones could DEFINITELY stand a longer draw distance.  Thankfully they're rare.

Rush, meanwhile, over-uses bottomless pits in its middle-to-late-game, which is not a good thing to do when you're moving so fast as to barely see in front of you.  It's especially frustrating with Blaze since she tackles the levels in her own order, while Sonic's order is the obvious intent so far as difficulty curve.  Rush Adventure is considerably better in level design, although the material/ship stuff may be seen as distracting.  Both Rush games fail in final battle scenarios.  That's the one thing the console games have largely done better.  By all means, they're good games, but Sonic can be better.

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And don't put all of the journalists on the same bowl. Tons of them have very good reviews.
Naturally the quality of any trade varies with the worker.  I can't speak for anyone else reading this, but for me, you're stating the obvious.

With Sonic, though, the fragmentation in the fanbase (as I always say, there is no consensus on what a "good" Sonic game should be) gives the reviewers an exceedingly difficult job.  Their analogies to Sonic's history tend to be very narrow-minded and thus clash with a good deal of the fans, as every SA2 lover feels every time someone is stupid enough to claim that 3D Sonic was never done well.  While only a fool would say that ALL reviews are untrustworthy, I believe that the majority of them are.  It's not even just Sonic; several other fandoms have led me to articles that can only possibly be excused as sheer ignorance.  I've seen everything from the inability to locate the Options menu to criticizing control setups that don't even exist (I still need IGN's Daemon Hatfield to explain to me where the "right analogue stick" is on a remote/nunchuck-only Wii game).

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Reply #1238 on: September 03, 2010, 11:36:22 PM
Every review which generalizes 3D Sonic indirectly does so.  Further, I've seen some go so far as to label STH3 as the "beginning of the end" back when it was re-released on Virtual Console, which is completely nonsensical considering that if you ask ANYONE their favorite 2D Sonic game, one of the 3 possible answers you will get is S3&K (STH2 and SCD being the others).

Further, I have read today, Sonic Colors multiplayer previews that claim Sonic co-op was only done properly in STH2.  Explain to me the logic behind that one.

Your level design comments on Black Knight and Rush leave me to believe that you're gauging them based on the early game.  Black Knight has ludicrously straightforward levels to start but gets more platforming-involved as you progress, with several stages making heavy use of stunts and well-timed jump cancels to fly over hazards (which are CONSIDERABLY more visible than Secret Rings' obstacles).  The level-up system is a lot better conceived in BK as well, considering you will not be penalized based on control sensitivity preferences that range all the way from molasses to practically teleporting to the opposite side of the screen, nor will you ever need to re-check your upgrade list to disable features that interfere with your current mission objective (who the HELL thought of avoiding spheres?).  Speaking of which, Secret Rings can be very hit-or-miss in its mission objectives in general.  Black Knight is a lot more solid in that regard, although the "avoid townspeople" ones could DEFINITELY stand a longer draw distance.  Thankfully they're rare.

Rush, meanwhile, over-uses bottomless pits in its middle-to-late-game, which is not a good thing to do when you're moving so fast as to barely see in front of you.  It's especially frustrating with Blaze since she tackles the levels in her own order, while Sonic's order is the obvious intent so far as difficulty curve.  Rush Adventure is considerably better in level design, although the material/ship stuff may be seen as distracting.  Both Rush games fail in final battle scenarios.  That's the one thing the console games have largely done better.  By all means, they're good games, but Sonic can be better.
Naturally the quality of any trade varies with the worker.  I can't speak for anyone else reading this, but for me, you're stating the obvious.

With Sonic, though, the fragmentation in the fanbase (as I always say, there is no consensus on what a "good" Sonic game should be) gives the reviewers an exceedingly difficult job.  Their analogies to Sonic's history tend to be very narrow-minded and thus clash with a good deal of the fans, as every SA2 lover feels every time someone is stupid enough to claim that 3D Sonic was never done well.  While only a fool would say that ALL reviews are untrustworthy, I believe that the majority of them are.  It's not even just Sonic; several other fandoms have led me to articles that can only possibly be excused as sheer ignorance.  I've seen everything from the inability to locate the Options menu to criticizing control setups that don't even exist (I still need IGN's Daemon Hatfield to explain to me where the "right analogue stick" is on a remote/nunchuck-only Wii game).
(sigh). Always singling out the only statements you feel like replying to, huh?

We can come to pretty much no conclusion in level design unless we're picking apart videos or some [parasitic bomb], seeing as I find Black Knight's hazards that come out of nowhere and levels that feature rows upon rows of enemies to waggle through an abomination against nature. Both Rushes have had generally quite a good reception from pretty much everyone except people who go "that isn't the way Sonic is supposed to be!", given that they're easy to get into and have pretty good production values. Level-design wise, although they have a few mistakes, they're still VERY good and intuitive games, capable of being navigated at high speeds without any special blunder. The last area of Sonic Rush is actually what I consider to be a textbook example of good game design. Make the second-to-last area quite hard, then make the last area FUN to play. Everything in the game was fun to navigate through, and the bonus levels weren't even as frustrating to find/complete as in other games.

And yes, there are good and bad reviewers.

...that doesn't change that they're right that Sonic games haven't been up to basic gaming standards in many years, no matter how much fun or redeeming factors you found in them.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #1239 on: September 03, 2010, 11:54:21 PM
(sigh). Always singling out the only statements you feel like replying to, huh?
I'm not paid to reply to you, so yes.  You're still surprised?

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Reply #1240 on: September 03, 2010, 11:58:40 PM
I'm not paid to reply to you, so yes.  You're still surprised?
It's disrespectful to the person writing the post in the first place, because it feels like you're constantly switching the argument to what you want it to be, just debating the issues you want, instead of dealing with the whole issue.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #1241 on: September 04, 2010, 12:04:10 AM
Do I need to link Vix's Argument Clinic video again?

The "whole issue" is redundant, you and I have been over Sonic quality half a dozen times and clearly have vastly different view points and expectations.  In light of that, I respond to what I find productive.  Or what I'm bored enough to pursue.

As for your last big post, I didn't mean to offend in neglecting it.  Current time doesn't permit me to dissect it right now.

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Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #1242 on: September 04, 2010, 12:07:25 AM
LoL, imagine replying to every single point that Ben brings up when debating Sonic... Kinda like an hour long unskippable cutscene  8D



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Reply #1243 on: September 04, 2010, 12:12:58 AM
Do I need to link Vix's Argument Clinic video again?

The "whole issue" is redundant, you and I have been over Sonic quality half a dozen times and clearly have vastly different view points and expectations.  In light of that, I respond to what I find productive.  Or what I'm bored enough to pursue.

As for your last big post, I didn't mean to offend in neglecting it.  Current time doesn't permit me to dissect it right now.
Of course it's redundant, it's a [tornado fang]ing internet discussion. It's meant to be redundant and meaningless, that's why we're talking here right now. That's the entire point of every single debate we've ever had.

I usually take the time to counter your posts fully, and leave it for another time when I don't feel like it at the moment, but at least say you're not going through my entire post instead of just replying to what you got answers for, because that just seems that you're leading the argument to where you want it to go and avoiding the issues you don't want to see discussed.



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #1244 on: September 04, 2010, 12:14:53 AM
Of course it's redundant, it's a [tornado fang]ing internet discussion. It's meant to be redundant and meaningless, that's why we're talking here right now.

Which is why I always win them. Cause I'm always right!



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Reply #1245 on: September 04, 2010, 01:10:57 AM
Which is why I always win them. Cause I'm always right!
Exactly. It's why you always agree with me.



Offline Fxeni

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Reply #1246 on: September 04, 2010, 01:23:52 AM
The irony contained in this last page is kinda funny.

Anywho, Lost Labyrinth seems to be in good shape. I still think the running animation seems a bit off, but other than that I have no real complaints.



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Reply #1247 on: September 04, 2010, 05:22:05 AM
Now I'm going to make sure I've got all of this covered:

Of course it's redundant, it's a [tornado fang]ing internet discussion.
I agree.

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It's meant to be redundant and meaningless, that's why we're talking here right now.
I agree.  However, my willingness to continue, and the points which I do and do not pursue, are up to my on discretion.

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That's the entire point of every single debate we've ever had.
Internet debates have no point, it's part of their charm.  But with no point, comes no obligation.

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I usually take the time to counter your posts fully
I lack the drive to verify that because I don't particularly care how thoroughly you respond to my posts.  However, I will say this: if in the event of any "serious business" discussion I feel you have neglected an important point of discussion, I will say so, and I will reiterate what point I do not feel you have adequately addressed.  That happens exceedingly rarely, however, as I have known our discussions to be more casual than, say, me arguing with Marshmallow Man over what's going on in Iris's head during X4.  My discussions with you are generally more expression than they are argument (that is "series of points" argument, not "contradiction" argument, which we do plenty of).

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and leave it for another time when I don't feel like it at the moment
That's the glory of message boards, as opposed to chats.  Pretty obvious stuff, I think.

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but at least say you're not going through my entire post instead of just replying to what you got answers for, because that just seems that you're leading the argument to where you want it to go and avoiding the issues you don't want to see discussed.

That's what dissected quote tags are for, Batty.  You know exactly what I'm responding to.  I might neglect that if it's a recurring point in your post (hence no one line is appropriate), but if you pay attention to context, I don't think it's too hard to figure out.



Now is this honestly what you want me to do every time I talk to you?  I am "going through" your entire post in that I am reading all of it.  What I see fit to comment on is my own business.  If I agree, but have nothing meaningful to add, or if I disagree, but see no means to contest that I have not already previously brought up, then there's no point.  And while I'm happy to waste time, I do so at my own discretion.

Further, you've made this same complaint repeatedly and, now that I'm actually bothering to double-check, I'm not following you.  WHAT EXACTLY of this post did I not respond to?  In the segment of your post which was addressed to me, the issues you brought up were:
1. Reviewers referencing Dreamcast games
2. Black Knight level design
3. Secret Rings level design and responsiveness
4. Advance/Rush level design
5. Globalizing journalist comments.

I addressed all of those.  For Secret Rings I neglected to comment on responsiveness because I felt no need to contest it (I agree with that comment, and it's irrelevant to whatever argument you're making; if anything it favors me as my point is journalist overestimate Secret Rings and underestimate Black Knight).  For Advance/Rush, I focused on Rush, because they are more recent, and therefore, more relevant as to Dimps' track record.  They're also more straightforward; the Advance games have quite a few odds and ends in gameplay that could be dissected.

A word to the wise: Nobody cares when your argument degrades into criticizing your opponent's arguing tactics.  It's boring.  If you are not satisfied with my comments, you are under no obligation to respond.  And vice-versa.  

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Reply #1248 on: September 04, 2010, 05:26:57 AM
have nothing meaningful to add
You never do. 8D

Hey, it's pretty fun to do this. I think I'll start doing it once in awhile.



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Reply #1249 on: September 04, 2010, 05:38:19 AM
Now you're thinking like a [tornado fang]ing RPMer!  Welcome, at last! 8)

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