Topic: Sonic the Hedgehog 4 (Wii, PS3, 360, iPhone)

[Bueno Excelente]

...I am NOT making myself do all those quotes to separate all those different arguments again, dammit.

- Secret Rings had enough success to warrant a sequel. Black Knight ended the storybook saga.  The analog stick is superior to turning the Wiimote, and I do agree with youon breaking and backwards tilting, but charged jumps? They made sense. It was supposed to be a game where you were constantly running. It worked like a race track, you did small jumps for small obstacles, and big jumps for big obstacles. What was wrong with that? Not only that, but the game involved something other than simply pressing the button forward and flailing the Wiimote all around. The homing attacks felt good and natural, and I honestly think the game was somewhat decent. Mediocre, but decent. The levels were tougher instead of straight lines with enemies waiting to be sworded, the bosses were actually GOOD and challenging, and the whole game felt vastly superior to what eventually became of Black Knight. Not to mention extra characters didn't make much sense to begin with. And not much change, either. Why do you even want extra characters?

- It's a first person game where you shoot things by aiming at them. IT'S A FIRST-PERSON SHOOTER. I don't care how much "adventuring" you do. Free aiming still makes more sense when talking about anything, and it would make MUCH more sense if we're talking about looking around for scans and exploring, because that way, it would enable us to look at every single side of a room freely without having to stop on your tracks to look around.

- Having LAG in a game is more immersive? Lag in the main combat mechanic? It's a good think the game's really easy when fighting anything, because I would have had alot more trouble if the game involved tougher enemies and if I had to plan movements a second ahead instead of doing them when I feel like it. I'm not even sure WHY you nitpicked my mirror comment, it was just something else in the list, but you probably got a quote tag writing fetish or summat. Anyway, while we're on about it, the shield attack mechanic was also quite stupid. The nunchuck imput didn't only not feel natural at all, but also it didn't register all the time when you tried to do it by impulse. I only got it right the third time when I first tried to use it. It was a [sonic slicer] when fighting armors. And about the mirror game, WHO THE HELL CARES if Link uses his right or left hand, Jesus Christ, noting repeated sprites from the first Zelda as possible canon in this silly thing, that's crazy talk. I'm just saying it's stupid to mirror an entire game just for the sake of having our right hand be his right hand, when it probably wouldn't bother us in the least what hand he'd use.

- And about Journey of Dreams, I've never said it was a good game. Ever. Yes, it IS an abysmal game, it's got lots of bugs, it's awful, but I was only making the point that compared to some other Sonic Team efforts, it's not that bad, considering their horrible track record. And I'm not saying you should go play the game. I sold it after a single weekend, myself, not even bothering to finish both stories. So just do yourself a favor and find a way to play the original Nights. So you can see the game for what it truly is. I recomend the japanese PS2 remake. Just load up an emu or something.

[Hypershell]

About my "fetish", quotes are simply a way of specifying what I'm referring to.  It's no different than any other response, except in a discussion of multiple points, it makes things easier to follow.  If you don't want to use them that's your business, but what you have against others using them is beyond me.  And believe me, Marshmallow Man surpasses me in this regard.

It worked like a race track, you did small jumps for small obstacles, and big jumps for big obstacles. What was wrong with that?

Sliding around prior to any significant jump (the need for short hops is pretty rare) gets old very fast.  It means you must slow or stop virtually every time you want to take to the air.  Frankly, it feels intrusive.  For all the bitching any other Sonic game gets about any gimmick whatsoever interrupting speed, the Secret Ring's charge jump is the among the most frequent and awkward interruptions.  It didn't stop me from enjoying the game, but it never once felt natural.

Nothing to argue with on homing attacks or bosses.  Much as I like Dark Queen, and believe me, I do, Secret Rings has a definite more varied selection there.

Not to mention extra characters didn't make much sense to begin with. And not much change, either. Why do you even want extra characters?

Two words: CHAOS PUNISHMENT!!!

Seriously, why does anyone play as Tails or Knuckles in S3&K?  Why does anyone play as Luigi, Toad, or Peach in SMB USA?  Because they can, because they want to, because it adds replay value and satisfies that little personal preference itch when differing characters fit within the same play style with only minor tweaks.  That is the only reason they need, that is the only reason they should have.  Sega's failure to realize this has bitten them in the ass on more than a few occasions.  Very frequently they either create off-the-wall separate play styles that starve you for the traditional platforming (were-hog), or they fail to significantly differentiate the selection at all yet still require you to play every option to hell and back (Heroes).

The nunchuck imput didn't only not feel natural at all, but also it didn't register all the time when you tried to do it by impulse.

I laugh at your weakness the same as I laugh at that of people who can't make Godzilla pick up a building.  You are most likely positioning the controller incorrectly.  Your shield is not a sword, ie, you should not be making a stab motion.

but I was only making the point that compared to some other Sonic Team efforts

Sonic Team is usually better about control inputs.  And visuals.  And voice acting.  And while they plague Sonic games with unrelated play styles that only serve to bog down the player, I have yet to see the Sonic gimmick that is more offensive than boat-NiGHTS.  And this before I even *REACHED* the children segments.

So just do yourself a favor and find a way to play the original Nights.

Believe me, I want to, but Saturn emulation is hell.  PS2 remake may not be a bad idea, I already have a swap-disc for Namco X Capcom.  Poking around moonspeak menus isn't my favorite thing in the world, though.

[Protoman Blues]

Why does anyone play as Luigi, Toad, or Peach in SMB USA?  

Um, why would anyone NOT play as Toad in SMB2.  He's 100% the best character in that game. 

[Hypershell]

Naturally (actually I'm more of a Peach/Luigi person, but moving on...).  I'm just saying, as much as people like the title character, sometimes they also enjoy the supporting cast.  And it in no way whatsoever is, and in fact probably shouldn't be, because they play in some ass-backwards style that cannot possibly be reconciled with that of the title character's stage layout.  Same applies to required replays.

[Bueno Excelente]

About my "fetish", quotes are simply a way of specifying what I'm referring to.  It's no different than any other response, except in a discussion of multiple points, it makes things easier to follow.  If you don't want to use them that's your business, but what you have against others using them is beyond me.  And believe me, Marshmallow Man surpasses me in this regard.
Sliding around prior to any significant jump, which is what you do far more often than your hops, gets very very old.  It means you must slow or stop virtually every time you want to take to the air.  Frankly, it feels intrusive.  And it doesn't even matter that the late-game lets you disable it, because most of the levels are impossible to clear without it.

Not arguing with homing attacks or bosses.  Much as I like Dark Queen, Secret Rings has a nice selection there.
Two words: CHAOS PUNISHMENT!!!

Seriously, why does anyone play as Tails or Knuckles in S3&K?  Why does anyone play as Luigi, Toad, or Peach in SMB USA?  Because they can, because they want to, because it adds replay value when differing characters fit within the same play style with only minor tweaks.  That is the only reason they need, that is the only reason they SHOULD have.  Sega's failure to realize this has bitten them in the ass on more than a few occasions.
I laugh at your weakness the same as I laugh at that of people who can't make Godzilla pick up a building.  You are most likely positioning the controller incorrectly.  Your shield is not a sword, ie, you should not be making a stab motion.
Sonic Team is usually better about control inputs.  And visuals.  And voice acting.  And while they plague Sonic games with unrelated play styles that only serve to bog down the player, I have yet to see the Sonic gimmick that is more offensive than boat-NiGHTS.  And this before I even *REACHED* the children segments.
Believe me, I want to, but Saturn emulation is hell.  PS2 remake may not be a bad idea, I already have a swap-disc for Namco X Capcom.  Poking around moonspeak menus isn't my favorite thing in the world, though.

Loosen up, man. I'm kidding around with you. =P Just makes it a bit more difficult to reply to your stuff.

- Sliding didn't make a ton of difference with your speed, and you didn't run around that fast in the first place. I didn't find it intrusive.
- Unlockable characters with no specific gameplay changes aside from a few things few people care are not extra characters that matter in the least. Why didn't they waste that time making better levels, or making MORE levels, even?
- Have you considered that special detail in whatever motion you make is kinda stupid to specify when you suddenly want to press an imput in the blink of an eye? Not everyone has time for the bullshit of holding the controller right to do this or that.
- HAHAHAHAH voice acting. Amusing. And control imputs? Play Sonic 06. As for boat-Nights, what bothered you about that? I think it was actually a fish-Nights, and he transforms automatically the moment you touch water. So what was the problem with that form? Same thing happens in the original game, only you get a mermaid's tail and you don't have to earn the form nor there is any transition, you just turn the moment you touch the water. I think TONS of Sonic Team mechanics have been worse than Nights' forms. What about pretty much everything that was introduced in Sonic 06? Or grabbing stuff with the werehog. Or maybe the sword in Black Knight.
- Download the ISO and burn it to a DVD. Whole game's in english, I think only the options menu is in japanese. It's worth it.

[Hypershell]

- Unlockable characters with no specific gameplay changes aside from a few things few people care are not extra characters that matter in the least.

This is why we can't have a decent Tails.  Or Super Sonic.

- Have you considered that special detail in whatever motion you make is kinda stupid to specify when you suddenly want to press an imput in the blink of an eye?

When the same device controls your spin-attacks?  Absolutely not.  Two actions to the same motion sensor mandates that a specific motion is required.  And the setup is perfectly logical.  A broad-side smack for hitting with the shield, and a random shake/swing for the spin attack (another thing I like, quick-spin is actually reliable).  I see no issue whatsoever.  Helm Splitter is my favorite attack in the game.

voice acting.

Didn't say it was epic, I said it was better than NiGHTS.  That's like saying any given cartoon is better than Sonic Underground.

Sonic 06

Lacking a 360/PS3 makes that difficult.  Even so, you can at best hope to promote NiGHTS to 2nd worst new-age Sonic Team effort.  And given how many Sonic projects have been churned out, that's still saying an awful lot as to how horrid NiGHTS is.

As for boat-Nights, what bothered you about that? I think it was actually a fish-Nights, and he transforms automatically the moment you touch water.

I am not in the LEAST referring to NiGHTS's forms. I'm referring to a specific stage where you are required to navigate NiGHTS down a river.  Control in said stage is a nightmare, regardless of input device.  I can only hope your lack of recollection means it is not seen again, but frankly, once is too many.

[Protoman Blues]

Naturally (actually I'm more of a Peach/Luigi person, but moving on...).  I'm just saying, as much as people like the title character, sometimes they also enjoy the supporting cast.  And it in no way whatsoever is, and in fact probably shouldn't be, because they play in some ass-backwards style that cannot possibly be reconciled with that of the title character's stage layout.  Same applies to required replays.

TOAD RULES OVER ALL IN SMB2!   

[Bueno Excelente]

This is why we can't have a decent Tails.  Or Super Sonic.
When the same device controls your spin-attacks?  Absolutely not.  Two actions to the same motion sensor mandates that a specific motion is required.  And the setup is perfectly logical.  A broad-side smack for hitting with the shield, and a random shake/swing for the spin attack (another thing I like, quick-spin is actually reliable).  I see no issue whatsoever.  Helm Splitter is my favorite attack in the game.
Didn't say it was epic, I said it was better than NiGHTS.  That's like saying any given cartoon is better than Sonic Underground.
Lacking a 360/PS3 makes that difficult.  Even so, you can at best hope to promote NiGHTS to 2nd worst new-age Sonic Team effort.  And given how many Sonic projects have been churned out, that's still saying an awful lot as to how horrid NiGHTS is.
I am not in the LEAST referring to NiGHTS's forms. I'm referring to a specific stage where you are required to navigate NiGHTS down a river.  Control in said stage is a nightmare, regardless of input device.  I can only hope your lack of recollection means it is not seen again, but frankly, once is too many.

- And yes. Well, Super Sonic actually worked alright in Sonic Adventure 2's last battle. If they mapped the up and down to either a right analog stick or the A/Y buttons (ala Zone of the Enders), it would have been perfect. Tails is a bit trickier, since we know he can't fly forever.
- Spin attacks were shaking it wildly, which I got no problem doing. Making a specific motion when you're in the middle of a heated battle is like being told to press two-thirds of a button when you're stressed.
- Voice acting has pretty much always sucked in Sonic games. Aside from certain characters, such as Eggy.
- Second worst? Still no. At least the gameplay matched the levels, no matter how crappy it was. Still not as bad as Shadow was. I actually considered it on par with Black Knight. The flying levels are fun, and when there's no gimmicks and it's just zooming through the air, it can get pretty good. Heck, had a better metacritic score. =P
- Ah, yes. Now I remember. Yeah, those controls sucked, but I consider that more of a small minigame in-between levels than anything else. Not a crash and burn factor.

[Hypershell]

Still not as bad as Shadow was.

I resent that.  Shadow is a solid game that needed only a few minor tweaks to be much better.  Two main issues are that missions are overly strict (artificial Chaos hunting is a pain in the ass), and the last boss split doubling the number of possible endings was sheer lunacy.  It's not a bad game, it's just laid out in such a way that you'll be damn sick of it by the time you get to the Last Story.  But it beats the hell out of Heroes.

Voice acting

Shadow, Sonic, Amy, and Blaze are fine.  Tails and Knux take a *LOT* of getting used to; they've both seen better days.  But since Sega keeps shafting Tails anyway, I'm sorry to say it's not very noticeable.

Funny you mention Eggman; he's decent, but the Adventure 2 voice is superior.

[Turian]

Um guys, not trying to be a pest here, but what exactly was wrong with the wiimote control setup in Nights? Please specify. I only ask because I did not run into any problems at all. Then again, I never played the first. Is that relevant to the issues you speak of? If so, how? Please elaborate!

[Hypershell]

Your pointer is bound by a tight invisible circle and will freeze if you move outside of it, only alerting you that something is wrong via color change.  It is a constant nuisance.

[Rayl]

Naturally (actually I'm more of a Peach/Luigi person, but moving on...).  I'm just saying, as much as people like the title character, sometimes they also enjoy the supporting cast.  And it in no way whatsoever is, and in fact probably shouldn't be, because they play in some ass-backwards style that cannot possibly be reconciled with that of the title character's stage layout.  Same applies to required replays.

Hear, hear! The sensible man's selection.

[Bueno Excelente]

I resent that.  Shadow is a solid game that needed only a few minor tweaks to be much better.  Two main issues are that missions are overly strict (artificial Chaos hunting is a pain in the ass), and the last boss split doubling the number of possible endings was sheer lunacy.  It's not a bad game, it's just laid out in such a way that you'll be damn sick of it by the time you get to the Last Story.  But it beats the hell out of Heroes.
Shadow, Sonic, Amy, and Blaze are fine.  Tails and Knux take a *LOT* of getting used to; they've both seen better days.  But since Sega keeps shafting Tails anyway, I'm sorry to say it's not very noticeable.

Funny you mention Eggman; he's decent, but the Adventure 2 voice is superior.

Shadow is better than Heroes? SHADOW is better than Heroes. One of the very worst games I've ever played, that pretty much DEFINES the sense of "bad game" in itself, and which I have a hard time figuring out if it's worse than Sonic 06 or not, is "better than Heroes"? Shadow isn't a "game" most of the time. It's a buggy mess, with the worst convulted mixed styles of gameplay I've ever seen. In a game where you mix the very worst of Heroes, put in the very WORST gun mechanics you can ever see, make two special attacks which GO AGAINST THE VERY OBJECTIVES OF THE GAME, and then strike out on pretty much everything I've ever seen, from bad graphics, bad gameplay, level design which sends you spiraling in insanity, vehicle gameplay which is THE WORSE I have ever seen... The game forces you to NOT attack CERTAIN enemies, while your character is someone whose gun and homing attack aim automatically to the closest enemy and who is attacked BY ALL ENEMIES EQUALLY. You have to HUNT for stuff in linear-speed based levels as you main objective! And the backtracking way they chose forces you not just to have to hit every single checkpoint, but to go through ENTIRE levels all over again just because you didn't open a crate which was in a corner at the beginning. Oh, and for enemy kill selection what better special attack then something that kills everything? Or for hunting something in the game, in special, what better way to proceed through the level than to speed through it and just not give a [parasitic bomb]? I have literally never, ever, EVER seen a game in my entire life that mixes in so many gameplay styles that don't make sense at all, and in which fighting against the GAMEPLAY the game has given you is harder, and you do it more often, than playing the game itself. The game has a story that makes no sense most of the time, Shadow has a laughably bad attitude "It's like taking candy from a baby, WHICH IS FINE BY ME BY THE WAY I AM SO EDGY", the whole thing goes on like a Jeph Loeb storyline, causing more and more stupidity to happen to what Sonic Adventure 2 was as a story (not to mention that game's graphics were better than this one), and by far, before Sonic 06 had come out, I considered this the worst game I had ever played. At least Sonic 06 had a good gameplay basis on the 3 main characters, discounting the bullshit moves and the vehicles. Shadow is just flawed all the way. I can't see one single redeeming feature. And I can't possibly stop thinking that if you played Sonic 06 you'd probably also like it.

[Hypershell]

*rant*

Now you know how I feel about Journey of Dreams.  I think we're done.

[Bueno Excelente]

Now you know how I feel about Journey of Dreams.  I think we're done.

I explained why every single thing about the game is bad. You failed to do that, and just went "OMG BOAT AND UNCOMFORTABLE CONTROL SCHEME". Opinions? I think not.

[Hypershell]

Flashy, backing personal opinion by whatever facts you choose does not change the fact that it is still personal opinion.  An opinion that ISN'T backed by facts isn't an opinion at all, it's ignorance.  I can come up with a rather massive checklist of what is wrong with MegaMan X5, that does not make it factually the worst game.  All games have high and low points, and the significance each carries in relation to the others is subjective.  Hence, opinion.

If I felt like tearing that post apart, I can; in fact I spotted a rather glaring misconception in there well before I was finished reading.  But the difference between you and me, is that when I criticize a game which you consider "not that great, but not that bad", you actually give a damn about trying to change my mind.  I'm not going to go into a wall of text and the dreaded pile of quote tags over a game that, regardless of any redeeming points which I may see and you do not, will still inevitably be shelved for any game of either the Adventures or Storybook series.  Shadow is my idea of mediocrity; there has been much better, and there has been much worse.  Heroes was only marginally worse.

[Bueno Excelente]

Flashy, backing personal opinion by whatever facts you choose does not change the fact that it is still personal opinion.  I can come up with a rather massive checklist of what is wrong with MegaMan X5, that does not make it factually the worst game.  All games have high and low points, and the weight each carries is subjective.

If I felt like tearing that post apart, I can; in fact I spotted a rather glaring misconception in there well before I was finished reading.  But the difference between you and me, is that when I criticize a game which you consider "bad" but not "that bad", you actually give a damn.  I'm not going to go into a wall of text and the dreaded quote tags over a game that, regardless of any redeeming points which I may see and you do not, will still inevitably be shelved for any game of either the Adventures or Storybook series.  Shadow is my idea of mediocrity, not success.

Oh, I love this. The "Everything is an opinion" argument. Of course, backing up my argument with facts doesn't make it any less of an opinion. The same as a game, when it's filled with bugs, it doesn't mean it's bad, it's simply my opinion that it's bad and unplayable. Some people may like the bugs. Some people may even like the bugs better than good games. Are the game's graphics bad? Who knows? There are people who LOVE blurry textures and constant clip-ins. I mean, there's probably a legion of people out there who consider Big Rigs the best game ever. And do I have the right to argue if it's a good game or not? Of course NOT! Because everything is an opinion! There are no truths or falsities to quality, everything is subjective. Everything is measured by the individual. Gameplay not suiting the levels? Game being the exact opposite of the example for good level design? It doesn't matter. I'll eat my [parasitic bomb], and I'll say it's better than your caviar. And you can't say a damn thing about it because it's "my opinion". Hahahaha.

Oh, of course you could tear down my whole post. You could win the entire argument with just a few words. You noticed mistakes in my post, and yet you didn't correct them. Because you're SUPERIOR to all of this. Debating on the Internet isn't even relevant to you, that's why you haven't been doing it all this time. And of course the difference between you and me is exactly that. It wasn't that I didn't give a [parasitic bomb] about defending Nights properly before you compared it to the worst damn game I ever played, or that you've been judging a game so far in regards to a single level and a bad form of gameplay. It's, of course, because I care more about defending games I like than you do. I mean, that's brilliant. And of course the for you, the game will be shelved for either of those. It doesn't matter that the Storybook series got quite bad reviews when compared to Journey of Dreams. It doesn't matter that the game's been widely much better received than either of the Storybook games. What matters is, of course, OPINIONS. And about how absolutely irrelevant they are for other people besides ourselves.

...and about how insanely stupid that post was. We're debating games on the internet. The POINT of debating games on the internet is to waste time trying to debunk each other's opinions, so we can hold onto our flaming wreck of a speech, and end up reaching nowhere. It's the whole point of it. Were you expecting to reach somewhere? Is this your first time debating games online? Because what you just said, it's as if you reached some kind of stupid common knowledge realization that it's all about opinions and that we're all wasting our time here. Well whoop-de-doo. Congratulations. Now you can leave the topic feeling "superior" because you left and realised that the whole damn point of the net is to say garbled mess at each other, or you can justify what you said properly instead of taking the "I'm better than this" route. So you like a shitty game better than a mediocre one. Great. Justify it, or get out. But don't be a pompous ass. Nobody likes that.

[Kit]

Hey guys.

I'm playing Sonic Mega Collection. =3c

[Hypershell]

Cap'n, your light of sanity is a true blessing here.  Thank you.
I do miss the actual Sky Sanctuary theme, but my damn STH3 battery died.



And Flash, you honestly wonder why I don't care to argue with you after a post like that?  When you completely ignore the rationale behind the post you're responding to and pad your response with three paragraphs of sarcasm?  "Some people may enjoy bugs", although ironically enough a valid statement (ie: small fireballs in Super Mario Bros.), is in no way whatsoever relevant to my previous post.

Exchanging opinions is in no way an invalid form of discussion, and if you knew jack about me you'd have found far more plausible means to try and mock me (ask Zan, Marshmallow Man, PB, Ben, and hell the list goes on).  It is generally valuable and informative to explore viewpoints outside of your own, regardless of whether or not they alter your ultimate conclusion.  You just happen to suck at it.  When you degrade into constant mockery of your discussion partner and your "evidence" consists mostly of Appeal to Ridicule, the discussion ceases to be productive.

[Protoman Blues]

But don't be a pompous ass. Nobody likes that.

LoL.  Listen, I love our little debates and everything, but don't pretend you're not a pompous ass! 

[VixyNyan]

I'm playing Sonic Mega Collection. =3c

*starts up her WiiCube and plays it too~*

[The Drunken Dishwasher]

Hmmm, I should do another run of Sonic 1.

I wonder if i'll be rusty as it~

[Bueno Excelente]

And Flash, you honestly wonder why I don't care to argue with you after a post like that?  When you completely ignore the rationale behind the post you're responding to and pad your response with three paragraphs of sarcasm?  "Some people may enjoy bugs", although ironically enough a valid statement (ie: small fireballs in Super Mario Bros.), is in no way whatsoever relevant to my previous post.

Exchanging opinions is in no way an invalid form of discussion, and if you knew jack about me you'd have found far more plausible means to try and mock me (ask Zan, Marshmallow Man, PB, Ben, and hell the list goes on).  It is generally valuable and informative to explore viewpoints outside of your own, regardless of whether or not they alter your ultimate conclusion.  You just happen to suck at it.  When you degrade into constant mockery of your discussion partner and your "evidence" consists mostly of Appeal to Ridicule, the discussion ceases to be productive.

And yet you pursue this line of thinking. My racionale was basically split between two: The chance to show you how much I loathe it when people turn to the "everything is opinions" matter when they just don't feel like replying consistingly to something else, and just purely and simply having fun. (Although I did have a fantastic laugh about the exception to the rule of bugs. It's like saying some guy in Nigeria has a [parasitic bomb]-eating fetish, so my "likes eating [parasitic bomb]" is actually credible)

And yes, we're exchanging opinions and points of view, as well as concrete facts (that last one, not so sure about you), but where did you even get the idea I WANTED to know jack about you? I honestly don't give a [parasitic bomb] to how you respond to my sarcasm. I used it because you delivered to me a lovingly stereotypical reply of someone who pretty much is tired and doesn't want to keep on arguing, so resolves to go into an automatic maturity ending to the whole thing, where you suddenly realise that all our arguing is pointless and irrelevant and that makes you stop caring about it at all, failing to notice that everything we type here is pointless and irrelevant, and we do it because we're disgusting human beings who thrive on being right in the face of others who want to be more obnoxious than us. That has never stopped being true with internet arguments. I do it, you do it, everyone does it and is fully aware of it. We just have some self-righteous need to protect what we think about, and we're sometimes blinded by the most obvious. But yes, we're just generally wasting time here. The difference between me and you, is that you've stopped deriving enjoyment out of it because you just don't feel like TRYING anymore.

And your last argument is specially and completely delicious. I gaze upon thy arguments and see them as either comedy, or delusion.

"It is generally valuable and informative to explore viewpoints outside of your own, regardless of whether or not they alter your ultimate conclusion."

Which you pretty much have failed to do, because you've looked at my arguments as to what caused Shadow to be a bad game, and you fled into "everyone has opinions" with your tail between your legs.

"You just happen to suck at it.  When you degrade into constant mockery of your discussion partner and your "evidence" consists mostly of Appeal to Ridicule, the discussion ceases to be productive."

I suck at it? I degrade into constant mockery of my discussion partner, after you dismissed every single one of my facts as "rant", and compared it to your endless bitching about a control scheme and a boat level? Of, but of course. You'd never stoop to my level and actually provide factual evidence as to why you say that. Instead, you simply tell me you could tear apart my post and my arguments have inconsistencies, without mentioning any of it, and just raising yourself to a level of maturity beyond mine, so that you feel that you've ended this on top. You don't have one single fact to line up your line of argument, so instead of facing it and getting it over with, you just hide behind a self-righteous veil like a cowardly pansy. Well, I don't waste time debating with people like that. Get your ego deflated, kid. You're not that important.



Aaaaaand moving onto the actual topic at hand, what changes do you think the actual game will have, from the current release to the new one? Taking into consideration the approval time Microsoft needs to go through with XBLA games, how much do you think they can get done in a few months?

[Kieran]

God, this thread is a [tornado fang]ing train wreck.  Where's my popcorn?

[Bueno Excelente]

God, this thread is a [tornado fang]ing train wreck.  Where's my popcorn?

Yes, but isn't it a beautiful one?