Topic: Sonic Classic Collection

[Satoryu]

select+start to return to the game select? that was a terrible combination.

That's standard fare for returning to the title screen. Tons of games use that, including all three PS1 X games.

[Flame]

That's standard fare for returning to the title screen. Tons of games use that, including all three PS1 X games.

No they didnt. It was press select at the pause menu, and it asks you if you want to return to the title screen.
X collection all you have to do is press both buttons simultaneously.

[Rin]

So, okay. It looks like DS' Genesis emus do not work like they should exactly. I lose one point.
Still, if you ALREADY OWN one of those collections, then there's really no point in buying this one. srsly.

Besides, Sega(Or should I say SONIC TEAM?) might [tornado fang] it up. After all, you guys do seem to remember the last handheld port.

[Satoryu]

No they didnt. It was press select at the pause menu, and it asks you if you want to return to the title screen.
X collection all you have to do is press both buttons simultaneously.

My bad. But still, other games do still use that.

[Flame]

Never said they didnt. but not many, if ANY, use the start + select simultaneously combo.

[Hypershell]

There is the issue of, since X4-6 already use "Start, Select" for returning to the in-game title screen, that combination cannot be used for returning to the game selection screen.  For compilations of older games there's usually a dedicated button to open a menu for that, but in XC, all the buttons are pretty much taken.

Aren't they working on Sonic 4?

We're never going to get any closer to STH4 than Rush.  Not until Sega learns to grant super forms in stages again.  And they've been off that train so long that I don't have much hope of them ever returning.  Without it, any talk of "back to Sonic's roots" is meaningless.

It's when Sonic gets involved, that something usually goes wrong. Too bad that's usually the big example that's cause for people to paint with a broad brush...

I would say more accurately Sonic Team.  Remember NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams?

I recall an old developer rant, taken down because it allegedly spoiled Unleashed before it was even announced, about how Sonic Team has been reduced to a rushed yearly cash-cowing house with no passion left for what they're doing.  I don't think that's too far from the truth.  Many times they land a solid concept.  But either because they have a deadline or because they just don't care, their projects virtually never get the fine-tuning in gameplay that they need.

Lol, what?

I think he's referring less to actual content and more to emulation quality.  MMAC used the PS1 ports of the NES games and yet chose to strip out the vast majority of their extras.  There is only one MM8 save slot, one of the visuals in MM7's ending was removed, MM8 suffers audio sample rate issues, and music often does not loop properly (Bass's ending, MM2PF, WHY?!!!).

Granted, XC repeated some music issues on the first two games, but they weren't nearly as bad.

[Protoman Blues]

We're never going to get any closer to STH4 than Rush.  Not until Sega learns to grant super forms in stages again.  And they've been off that train so long that I don't have much hope of them ever returning.  Without it, any talk of "back to Sonic's roots" is meaningless.

I merely meant that "old-school" Sonic game that's supposedly in development.  Otherwise, I agree with ye.

[Klavier Gavin]

http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=76629

Don't know if I should pre-order. D:

...I probably [tornado fang]ing will anyway. >_>

[Hypershell]

So, okay. It looks like DS' Genesis emus do not work like they should exactly. I lose one point.
Still, if you ALREADY OWN one of those collections, then there's really no point in buying this one. srsly.

Portable.  That's pretty much it.

Although, it's worth mentioning, DS Genesis emus are still a great way to play Tails/Knuckles in Sonic 1, and no Collection is changing that.

Besides, Sega(Or should I say SONIC TEAM?) might [tornado fang] it up. After all, you guys do seem to remember the last handheld port.

In all fairness, porting and emulating are not the same thing.  Sonic Genesis was a port, not emulation.  There is no physically possible way to get a Genesis emu with sound and full speed running on the GBA.  The DS is another story, though, and I sincerely doubt Sega would go to the trouble of porting four (effectively 6 or 7 with the Lock-Ons) games in such a situation.  If it took that much effort they'd release them individuall and not all in one $30 cart.

In terms of emulation quality, look at past collections and VC, they've done alright.  Weirded the hell out of the Sky Sanctuary instruments, but otherwise okay.

[Flame]

There is the issue of, since X4-6 already use "Start, Select" for returning to the in-game title screen, that combination cannot be used for returning to the game selection screen.  For compilations of older games there's usually a dedicated button to open a menu for that, but in XC, all the buttons are pretty much taken.

If I recall, there IS one available L2/R2 button, (depending which you map gigas to in the PSX games) and the select to go to the title screen is ONLY while in the pause menu. they could very easily have done what AC did, and have a separate pause menu come up with the option of returning to the "game room". hell, it could also give you your current password in X1-3. as I recal, Classic 7 and 8, had the select menu, but since there were no hints or bonuses there, it was just the option of returning to the game room or going to the title screen. hey could have pretty well done that. To me, X collection feels somewhat rushed. They were busy saving resources for Maverick Hunter X.

[Hypershell]

X6 uses Select for Alia.  "One button free depending on where your Giga Attack is" means the emu has to constantly re-adjust its menu button, and because the games are emulated, can't display this along with the rest of the button configuration, it'd need a separate screen/window to explain it.  It'd be rather troublesome.  The fact is all buttons are map-able save Select, which again, X6 uses.  In addition Select is also mappable in X1-3  In MM8, Select is both unmappable and unused, as it is unused in all other titles.

My point is that in AC, Select is unused across all games.  In XC, there is no consistently unused button.  Even if you apply the alternate-pause-menu logic, Select is only available in X4 and X5.

However, now that I think about it, on the PS2 there is L3/R3 (pressing the sticks in until they click).  They could have done that.  Wouldn't help GCN users, though.

[Flame]

They could have done anything way better. they could have even adde the option on the regular start> select pop up or something... select + Start simultaneously has cost me  quite a few screw ups.

[HokutoNoBen]

So it's saying Sega can't handle thier own mascot like they used to?

I don't think it's so much that, more that they just don't care, as Shell talked about.

I recall an old developer rant, taken down because it allegedly spoiled Unleashed before it was even announced, about how Sonic Team has been reduced to a rushed yearly cash-cowing house with no passion left for what they're doing.  I don't think that's too far from the truth.  Many times they land a solid concept.  But either because they have a deadline or because they just don't care, their projects virtually never get the fine-tuning in gameplay that they need.

Having read this same rant on GAF many moons ago, I would agree that's pretty much the truth. Between the devs being hard pressed to give two shits, and the Sonic fan base buying games, regardless of the quality? Sega hasn't had good reason to improve, if the public has made no real "demand".

I'm interested in seeing what Project Needlemouse is all about. But unless Sega/Sonic Team/whatever dev is involved, is actually interested in making a quality game? Things won't get better. There are a lot of fundamental probs with Sonic as a series now, and it goes far beyond the scope of how "super forms in levels" has not been a feature in the games in over 15 years. (Sorry, Shell. ).

I would say more accurately Sonic Team.  Remember NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams?

JoD was not exactly a shining example of how to make a great game, any more than Billy Hatcher was, but I don't think either game could be construed as scraping the bottom of the barrel of game design, as some of Sonic's last few games.

Sonic has been basically reduced to more than a ho that Sega expects to turn tricks, and "go out make some muthafuckin' money!" [/Butters] And that's sad, considering that, at least in Europe and the US, Sonic was definitely Mario's rival. But now, more than ever, the differences between the franchises has been made apparent.

Mario, as a franchise, as built, from the ground-up, as a means to help craft games. There was little to no "marketing appeal" that was at the center, so much that it was all a part of Miyamoto's functional design.

Sonic, on the other hand, was built as a franchise that was meant to cater to 90s marketing. The character himself was "radical, hip, edgy and cool". Sonic was practically the "Poochy" of his day. Possibly the only reason we even got decent games in the 90s based of him, was because of Sonic's "3 Dads", Naka, Yasuhara and Oshima, who took what marketing gave them, and (sonic-)spun it into gold.

Without those three, or at least, the same degree of fundamental thought and design those three gave the series? Is it any wonder why the series is in the pickle it's in now?

[Hypershell]

There are those devs who would like to see decent Sonic games, though.  The Rush games are proof positive of that to me.  Rush Adventure stepped up the level design, but at the same time, bogged the game down with extra mission and collection crap.

Control mechanics may be hit-or-miss with new Sonics, but they do hit from time to time.  What Sega has consistently forgotten is replay value.  They bog the games down with extra menial tasks/game modes thinking it'll extend the play time, which it does, but it also kills your desire to replay it.  Super forms are part of replay value which is one reason I make a big stink over it.  Another is how to properly handle alternate characters (see S3&K).  Character abilities which are different and useful, but do not mandate a separate stage type.

Shadow The Hedgehog was close, though.  I'm not the biggest fan of a hedgehog with guns, mind you, but if you're going to add an extra ability Shadow is how you do it: You add it as a supplement to the core abilities, not as a completely new character type.  What mainly killed the game there was the at times overly strict objectives (still beats the hell out of Heroes' Team Chaotix, though) and the fact that some idiot decided to make 10 endings instead of 5.

On your comments on sale-motivation mentality, how they'll not try to improve as long as sales are strong, is that you don't know how they'll respond when they're weak.  As long as it sells, they keep trying, and with little exception the soundtrack at least usually justifies a Sonic purchase.  It stops selling, they might not redouble their efforts.  They might just figure, "people don't like Sonic anymore" and let him die.  See ZX.

JoD was not exactly a shining example of how to make a great game, any more than Billy Hatcher was, but I don't think either game could be construed as scraping the bottom of the barrel of game design, as some of Sonic's last few games.

Although I will attach the disclaimer that I have not been, nor will be in the foreseeable future, able to play Sonic '06, I must strenuously disagree with that statement.  JoD is worse than Heroes, worse than Shadow, worse than any new-age Sonic game I have ever played.  At least the Sonic games look good.  At least they sound good.  And at least their control inputs have a tendency to actually work.  JoD couldn't even get the damn Wii remote pointer right.  The SYSTEM MENU outperforms it in control, that is damn sadder than any Sonic I have played.  The only thing that even competes with that is Sonic Genesis, which is a port quality issue and not a game design issue.

[Phi]

Rush Adventure stepped up the level design, but at the same time, bogged the game down with extra mission and collection crap.

Thus being a similar issue with Unleashed. The Day levels were vibrant, fun and very well put together, but when it came around to the Werehog stages it became slow and all too unappealing. And i fear Sonic Team will make the same mistakes with "Project Needlemouse". They try too hard, which ends up hurting instead of helping. Sonic games are straight-forward for the most part, and that is what Sonic Team has to understand.

[HokutoNoBen]

There are those devs who would like to see decent Sonic games, though.  The Rush games are proof positive of that to me.  Rush Adventure stepped up the level design, but at the same time, bogged the game down with extra mission and collection crap.

I dunno how much the Rush games count in this light though. Dimps handled the majority of the development, and Sonic Team was in a more advisory role.

That's nothing bad to say about that arrangement, barring the fact that the main games in the series that could be construed as good in the last few years, have only been with Dimps' involvement. That much extends to the Advance games, too.  

What Sega has consistently forgotten is replay value.  They bog the games down with extra menial tasks/game modes thinking it'll extend the play time, which it does, but it also kills your desire to replay it.  Super forms are part of replay value which is one reason I make a big stink over it.  Another is how to properly handle alternate characters (see S3&K).  Character abilities which are different and useful, but do not mandate a separate stage type.

Extra characters I may agree on, but I still think that Super Forms are just a novelty, at best. You get the ability that pretty much proves your mastery of the game as a bonus, allowing you to plow through the game even faster than before. It's cute, that much goes without saying, but that's about it. The game itself doesn't change up any to respond to your new plateau of power, and so it does more to me to be a bit redundant.

If they're going to bring such a thing back, then I would really hope they do more to make it worth the while. Make a separate play mode that can be truly built around the new power you possess, or something. Or maybe make it like in DMC, VJ and Bayonetta, where you TRULY had to do the damn thing to earn that power, and by that point, there's nothing left for you to accomplish any way.

Definitely agreed that Sonic needs more in the way of replay value, to stay relevant though. A level creator, like the Flash thing that's been making the rounds on the net? That'd be a nice start...

The problem with the whole sale-motivation mentality, though, that they'll keep doing what they're doing as long as it sells, is that you don't know how they'll respond when it doesn't.  As long as it sells, they keep trying, and with little exception the soundtrack at least usually justifies a Sonic purchase.  It stops selling, they might not redouble their efforts.  They might just figure, "people don't like Sonic anymore" and let him die.  See ZX.

Well, I think of it like this: If they don't read into what is the basis beyond public outcries, then Sega's marketing team is more incompetent than what even I would be willing to give credence to. And it would just prove more that they don't know what's really best for the franchise, and maybe an "honorable death" is for the better.

There have been far more deserving franchises that have gotten the ax, instead of a sequel. And maybe, in some form of poetic justice, it may be that better that way. As far as I and many others are concerned, Sonic might as well be dead. And unless Needlemouse sincerely turns the page, I can predict only more joining that number. That's how bad of a position Sonic is in, and as a (largely estranged) fan, it saddens me.

Although I will attach the disclaimer that I have not been, nor will be in the foreseeable future, able to play Sonic '06, I must strenuously disagree with that statement.  JoD is worse than Heroes, worse than Shadow, worse than any new-age Sonic game I have ever played.  At least the Sonic games look good.  At least they sound good.  And at least their control inputs have a tendency to actually work.  JoD couldn't even get the damn Wii remote pointer right.  The SYSTEM MENU outperforms it in control, that is damn sadder than any Sonic I have played.  The only thing that even competes with that is Sonic Genesis, which is a port quality issue and not a game design issue.

Aesthetics-wise, is a difference of opinion. For example, I thought JoD had a charming OST, even if it wasn't as godly as the original's. To say the least, it's done more for me than any recent Sonic game's OST, short of Rush's. But again, that's a matter of opinion.

And while I'll give you that the Wii-mote control interface wasn't kosher, hey, that's what I thought the GC/CC controller options were for. Hell, everybody who was raised on the Saturn classic, and wanted to make sure they got fitting, "proper" controls, wouldn't accept anything else.

To say the least, JoD at least GAVE you the option to play the game the way you felt best. That's more than can be said for either Secret Rings or Black Knight. You want a true example of questionable controls? These games possess such in spades. I like how BK has input-lag on sword swings; that's a very BAD thing to have on what is basically the entire premise you're building a game around.

Thus being a similar issue with Unleashed. The Day levels were vibrant, fun and very well put together, but when it came around to the Werehog stages it became slow and all too unappealing. And i fear Sonic Team will make the same mistakes with "Project Needlemouse". They try too hard, which ends up hurting instead of helping. Sonic games are straight-forward for the most part, and that is what Sonic Team has to understand.

Agreed.

If ST were to just get the point that "less is more", we likely would have had a decent successor to the 2D games, and likely a "true arrival" of Sonic in 3D as well, YEARS ago.

And so, thus, we're truly at a crossroads. Either Sega has to be able to see the reason to just "return Sonic to his roots" (and actually MEAN it this time, with no unnecessary gimmicks!), or they're going to have to take Sonic in such a new, outright radical direction, effectively re-building the franchise from the ground up, so that they can actually have something solid to build on.

The former, is akin to why Rockman has done a lot to stay strong all these years. The Rockman franchise has offered numerous adaptations and changes over the years, and many, many sequels, but a lot of the base things that have made the games what they are since the NES days, have stayed the same. And for the most part, people have loved the series for that.

The latter, is why franchises like Mario have done a lot to stay fresh and relevant to this day. By and large, Mario has always done something to change things up and reinvent itself throughout the years. And usually, with a more fundamental focus in mind. 

Either of these directions could benefit Sonic, at this point. Going back to the MD days would at least showcase that they really want to take it back to the roots, and all that they have to offer. We could even get nice, Rockman Zero like evolution that could really make for some nice level designs and gameplay aspects. Going Mario's route could also be nice, as perhaps Sonic is due for a true formula change beyond just relying on speed-based platforming.

Whichever the case...I just hope for the best. Maybe the fact that Sonic himself might be getting a re-design (that silhouette points to such a possibility) could showcase just what might be in store.

[Protoman Blues]

So, Nintendo or Capcom should make the next Sonic game? 

[Hypershell]

Nintendo actually proved that they're quite capable of the "MegaMan" approach with NSMBWii.  They also proved they were capable of handling Sonic in Brawl.  So......why not?

I dunno how much the Rush games count in this light though. Dimps handled the majority of the development, and Sonic Team was in a more advisory role.

I didn't say it had to be Sonic Team that made a good Sonic game.  Frankly I think it would be for the best if Sega dissolved/restructured them, as long as they keep Jun Senoue and Crush40 around.

Extra characters I may agree on, but I still think that Super Forms are just a novelty, at best. You get the ability that pretty much proves your mastery of the game as a bonus, allowing you to plow through the game even faster than before. It's cute, that much goes without saying, but that's about it. The game itself doesn't change up any to respond to your new plateau of power, and so it does more to me to be a bit redundant.

Different strokes for different folks.  To me, that's half the replay value right there.

Of course, it depends on a kickass theme to accompany, such as STH2 and S3&K (STH3 I wasn't too fond of).  Which is the one thing Sonic Team has been (usually) doing right.

If they're going to bring such a thing back, then I would really hope they do more to make it worth the while. Make a separate play mode that can be truly built around the new power you possess, or something.

That's basically what we have, though, except the "new mode" is just the final boss.  Which is fine and dandy.  Emerald power, story-wise, is something of a last-ditch effort due to energy consumption.  What I'm saying is it *SHOULD* be available for the entirety of replays.  There's no reason the game HAS to be designed around it.  The whole idea is you need to control your speed while at the same time maintaining your ring count.  Normal stages work for that perfectly fine.  You move faster, you jump higher, you break stuff quicker, but you still fit the basic character type.  It's a bonus to encourage replays.  By making you WANT to, not by giving you a reason you HAVE to.  That's where Sonic Team fouled up quite a few times.

maybe an "honorable death" is for the better.

That ship has sailed.  Ages ago.

And while I'll give you that the Wii-mote control interface wasn't kosher, hey, that's what I thought the GC/CC controller options were for. Hell, everybody who was raised on the Saturn classic, and wanted to make sure they got fitting, "proper" controls, wouldn't accept anything else.

I've long maintained that providing traditional options is a good thing and all.  The lack of it has been a big criticism of mine elsewhere (ie: Star Fox Command).  But I really thought that NiGHTS could make for an interesting setup, and the sad thing is, when I play it I can see that it could have.  But if you're going to do Wii controls, at least make them technically workable.  The cursor hangs at the edge of an invisible circle, for crying out loud.

To say the least, JoD at least GAVE you the option to play the game the way you felt best. That's more than can be said for either Secret Rings or Black Knight. You want a true example of questionable controls? These games possess such in spades. I like how BK has input-lag on sword swings; that's a very BAD thing to have on what is basically the entire premise you're building a game around.

I've not yet bought Black Knight due to it being on my Christmas list, but I'll be able to comment on that in a matter of weeks.  As for Secret Rings, works perfectly fine, as long as you're moving forward.  And not on rails.  Okay, so it could have been better, but the bulk of the game is smooth.  Which is more than I can say for JoD.

If ST were to just get the point that "less is more", we likely would have had a decent successor to the 2D games, and likely a "true arrival" of Sonic in 3D as well, YEARS ago.

The Adventures may have some elements that weren't really necessary (Tails's mech and Big's fishing), but for the most part I think they were as much "true arrivals" of Sonic in 3D as anything Mario ever did.  Considerably better than Sunshine, I have to say.  First Adventure especially, kept the more off-the-wall game modes to short lengths, leaving Sonic with the longest and meatiest story.  Second one, was a bit of a quality-over-quantity issue, but those stages where Sonic/Shadow were featured, they worked excellently.  Final Rush remains my favorite 3D platforming stage, of any game, of all time.

[Kieran]

Sonic Adventure was good.  Not breathtaking, but good.  And Sonic Adventure 2 was solid.  It just started to go downhill from there, at an alarming pace.

[Flame]

*reads the last few posts about 3D sonic doin' it wrong*
...

Well I want the Sonic Xtreme we never got.

>:C NAO, SEGA.

Anyway, Hypershell,
If its of any consolation, Sega had CONSIDERED putting Super Sonic back in levels in Sonic 06, according to in stage Super Sonic data pulled up by hackers.

Personally, I thought 06, it's story and insane load times aside, was headed in a good direction. The sonic and shadow gameplay were fun, with Shadow throwing in a few elements from his game, only reworked so they handled better than in the previous game.

Tails/Rouge gameplay was pretty good.  and so was Omega/Knux's gameplay.
What I liked most though, was that instead of giving each character their own stage, like in SA1+2, or having the team system in Heroes, where more often than not, the need to switsh around got frustrating, each of the characters in the team had their own segment in the same stage. Of decent length, not too long, not too short... And I thought that most of the stages were fun to play through again.
They even added a new play through as Silver and his gang, (Blaze and Amy) Silver was actually kinda fun to use, and Blaze well.. She was a bit awkward to play as. But it was alright. I dont remember Amy though.

I also found Eggman's redesign, while somewhat hard to fully take in at first, to be somewhat refreshing. He got a redesign from Sonic&Knuckes to Sonic Adventure, so why not. it didnt exactly look BAD. (he could have looked a bit fatter though.)

Now the nitpicks...
The load times are one.
another is the story, (way to go Sega! You made a story that erases itself from ever having happened!)
then there are Sonic's power ups for his shoes, which while fun to mess around with on the hub world, were largely useless in the stages. (aside from the sheild. that was cool, it was like the electric shield all over again.)
Sonic-x-Human girl. Seriously, wat.

But yeah. And I want a sonic game where the spindash is actually useful again.

[HokutoNoBen]

Nintendo actually proved that they're quite capable of the "MegaMan" approach with NSMBWii.

Technically, you can say that they did that much earlier, with SMB2-JP/Lost Levels. And they'll likely do it again with Galaxy 2.

But overall, what can be stated is that Nintendo has done a lot more to push Mario in new fundamental directions more often than they have given us "expansions". And hell, going by how much NSMB Wii utterly wipes the floor with the original DS game, maybe the original efforts were more along the lines of "dry runs" for the real deals we stand to get later...

They also proved they were capable of handling Sonic in Brawl.  So......why not?

Wouldn't mind as such at all. The least of what Nintendo's EAD teams could probably make for a better Sonic game than whatever Sonic Team has done in the last decade. That much would go without saying.

Different strokes for different folks.  To me, that's half the replay value right there.

What I'm saying is it *SHOULD* be available for the entirety of replays.  There's no reason the game HAS to be designed around it.  The whole idea is you need to control your speed while at the same time maintaining your ring count.  Normal stages work for that perfectly fine.  You move faster, you jump higher, you break stuff quicker, but you still fit the basic character type.  It's a bonus to encourage replays.  By making you WANT to, not by giving you a reason you HAVE to. That's where Sonic Team fouled up quite a few times.

Meh, honestly, I've preferred it the way it was done in games like DMC, Viewtiful Joe and etc, which have also done a lot to mimic this same aspect. In those games, by the time you completed the hardest mode/hardest challenges in the game, you get rewarded with an item/power-up/option that basically makes you invincible, with all of the advantages in the game at your disposal. The game does a lot to tell you "Alright, you've truly mastered me, and I could honestly not challenge you any further. Enjoy your Bruce Leeroy Glow(tm)!"

Super Sonic was basically the predecessor to that, in that, likewise, by the time you earned it, there really is no more challenge the game could offer you. You've surmounted the collect-a-thon/scavenger hunt/bonus stage relay challenges, and there's nothing more for you than just mess around with the new status you have with "the glow".  

There's nothing wrong with that, but it would have to be a thing that, to make it more worth the while, either a) the challenges to get the glow need to be steeper or b) they need to do more with making the glow part of the gameplay. Because what the MD Sonics did with this aspect was inherently flawed. You could earn the glow before the game was over, and neutralize any remaining challenge away before the game was "finished" (except for Sonic 2). There's no other perks to being Super Sonic, like being able to find new things in levels, old bosses having new battle patterns or the like.  

That be like if Dante, in DMC, could earn Unlimited Devil Trigger before even finishing Normal mode, and yet, the game doesn't do anything otherwise to account for that.

It's just spells bad balancing and lack of deeper thought on the part of the devs. And I wouldn't want such an aspect returned UNTIL such details are addressed.  

That ship has sailed.  Ages ago.

It's never to late to do the right thing! It at least would stop the possible stream of any more bad ideas being made into Sonic games!

I've not yet bought Black Knight due to it being on my Christmas list, but I'll be able to comment on that in a matter of weeks.  As for Secret Rings, works perfectly fine, as long as you're moving forward.  And not on rails.  Okay, so it could have been better, but the bulk of the game is smooth.  Which is more than I can say for JoD.

The worse I can say for JoD is that the 3D "platforming" sections, where you're NOT flying as Nights and playing as those brats? Those were definitely the pitfalls in the game.

But turning around for Sonic in SR? I think pulling my own teeth out would be the only thing that would exceed how much of a painful experience that was.
 

The Adventures may have some elements that weren't really necessary (Tails's mech and Big's fishing), but for the most part I think they were as much "true arrivals" of Sonic in 3D as anything Mario ever did.  Considerably better than Sunshine, I have to say.

....

...Seriously?

I'll definitely admit that Mario Sunshine was probably the "worst" of the 3D Marios. But I'll be damned if I consider ANYTHING that Sonic has done in the 3D realm as worthy of even being COMPARED to Sunshine, much less being better than it.

The worst you can say about Sunshine is that it felt too gimmicky because of FLUDD and tacked-on Yoshi, and lacked the polish that either 64 or Galaxy possessed. But there was never anything truly detrimental about the game, itself.  

The worst you can say about pretty much any given 3D Sonic is a truly bad camera, questionable hit/collision detection and borderline game breaking glitches. And that's not to say some of the issues that were mutually exclusive to any one entrant of the franchise.

The Adventure games were "decent", at best, if we were willing to look past their inherent faults. But that's about that could be said about those games, gameplay-wise.

[xnamkcor]

Because I like my DS, would like to play these on a portable, and don't have much space on my flashcart?

How big is your flashcard? 32MB?

[Solar]

1GB, but it's all filled with games

[xnamkcor]

1GB, but it's all filled with games

You can't free up 8MB?

In any case, I already have them emulated on PC, PSP, and Wii.
I even have a real copy of Sonic 3 for Genesis and Sonic & Knuckles Collection for PC.
I don't feel like paying for these games again.

[HyperSonicEXE]

Whoa, back the heck up.
Let's get one thing straight.

Other 3D Marios > Super Mario Sunshine = Sonic Adventure 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 3D Sonics

Okay, now I don't feel like I've failed teaching you people, carry on.