What did Lumine mean?

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Offline Zechs

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Reply #125 on: July 11, 2009, 03:15:27 AM
Some things are intentionally left for Fans to 'fill in'. This is not uncommon. And has been practiced quite a bit in the MegaMan series timeline. Something are left unsaid to draw Fans into the story. So they can fill in their scenarios to fill specific events.



Offline Acid

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Reply #126 on: July 11, 2009, 03:19:40 AM
Yeah, but there are also cases in which fans throw any trace of common sense over board and start making stuff up to fulfill their grimdark and edgy fanboy dreams.

Mega Man is no exception.



Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #127 on: July 11, 2009, 04:35:58 AM
Well, I bet if they understood the "real" story of the X series, then they'd hate it.  So it's just as well.



Offline Waifu

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Reply #128 on: July 11, 2009, 05:40:14 PM
Especially since they keep the sourcebooks in Japan to quite possibily irritate foreign Mega Man fans.  >_< Although that doesn't necessarily mean we cannot get sourcebooks or don't anyone know people who not only have it and read it but understand it enough to help us gain some clarity on it.



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Reply #129 on: July 11, 2009, 06:41:17 PM
External Attack vs External occurrence. Attack as in purpose. Occurrence as in accident/etc.
For some reason I can't shake the image of Axl tripping and landing face-first on a cookie cutter.

The body shares some distinctions with the X1 design overall, but are not congruent and have many minor differentiations, and some things seem more borrowed from other Sigma forms.
I notice the X3 arms and that is hard to ignore.  Nevertheless, the art style change with X8 makes nit-picking details of the body very, very shaky.  There is no image as to how previous Sigma bodies, X1's in particular, fit within that style.  There's also the question of why a conglamorate-body didn't draw further suspicion, what the hell is the DNA of Sigma's later bodies doing on file?  The body, in physical appearance at least, seems to lean more strongly toward X1 than any other.  Nevertheless, you do bring up a valid viewpoint.

One more question mark to throw onto the pile.

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Instead of being directly infected by the virus themselves and being changed in their own individual way by it, they are infected with Sigma's virus-ridden logic, thus they are affected the exact same way that Sigma was affected by the virus. Instead of having a virus that brings out their own evil, they are sharing Sigma's evil. Effected by the effects of the effected. The virus is responsible at the base of it all, but it is applied in a completely vicarious manner, so they're possibly getting more along with it than any other virus infected individual before. They are infected with Sigma, the underlying virus code is an integral part of Sigma, and now an integral part of them too...  It's hidden but never out of the equation. I think I'm talking in circles, but I'm at a loss to explain it any better.
Well, that is a hell of a better explanation for viral involvement than I've ever heard previously.  It's plausible, though I don't buy it as certainty.

One aspect of X8's presentation that continues to linger in my head is the early reveal of Sigma's copy body.  X specifically asks Alia about it, and she doesn't seem to consider it unusual, or threatening.  You'd think that the possibility of second-hand corruption such as that would have been taken into consideration there, what with how infamous the maverick virus is, and the fact that they have partial-hindsight in that something has obviously gone wrong with the allegedly infallible.  But that's an oddity, not an outright contradiction.

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Alia did do that analysis, but I don't really get whether the Sigma data she found when comparing Axl's copy chip and the irregulars' was a common feature in just the bad guys' copy chips, or in theirs and Axl's both. Lumine said that about prototypes not having the specs to do so, and presumably that is why Axl is not on the guest list for their new world party. If Axl is lacking the Sigma data that makes things easy. If he has it though, and for whatever reason just has yet to be effected, then more explanation is in serious order. Maybe he is somehow defective. Maybe his scars are a mark of his being a failed work.
The "defective" bit reminds me of ZXA.  But yeah, we could definitely stand more details there.  For as much a potential impact on the storyline as X8 has, explanation was definitely not its strong point.

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I think the only thing that explains Vile's presence in X8 is his popularity. Dynamo seems just as willing to be Sigma's [sonic slicer] and likes following orders a lot more, but he wasn't chosen. Vile appears inexplicably as form "V" and the show goes on. The choice to revive him seems fairly arbitrary. Maybe Sigma just missed the little dickens.
That would have pretty much been my mindset before MHX, but I think there is a reason they touched on that.  Vile was depicted as a loose cannon in X3, so his wailing on X1 mavs wasn't something I found all that unusual.  However explanations for his behavior, his motivations in particular (or even the fact that he has any), were never really explored before, so to me, that was of particular interest.

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But Inti and Sigma both seem to see a potential link, even if you do not.
However you could say the same thing about X, who has no direct connection.  Sigma's interested in X's potential to advance Reploids, and has taken stabs at working X and/or X's data in his favor a few times since (X3 and X7).  Inti, meanwhile, was ready to have the original X as the genocidal lunatic you had to kill in Z1.

Sigma sees in Zero power, and power is potential to evolve.  And Inti really gave a generic BS/no comment answer when asked.  In all honesty I don't think they follow detail that well.

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On the other hand, Sigma after being defeated was able to revive much more completely the next time, maybe defeating him in X6 did Sigma a huge favor.
Although speculation, I'd wager that Sigma could complete his revival in due time regardless.  Three weeks is a pretty short timeframe for Sigma to be back and kicking already.

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Isoc certainly gave Gate's new world order the old college try, so much that he put High Max's repairs ahead of capturing Zero.
He's played his lot with Gate in the interest of recovering Zero, and Gate had already noticed Isoc's obsession, so Isoc knows he has to be more cautious.  At that point he probably just had to play the role through, rather than risk severing connections with Gate too early.

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You mean, if it's a retcon? Then of course. Throw another contradiction into the pile. It well may be. I'm going to go on the good faith that it isn't, until proven that it is.
Well, perhaps.  I'm reluctant to use the word "retcon" as MegaMan fans tend to equate that to simply throwing away the past, which isn't what happened here (not like X5/X6's three years/three weeks).  Rather they are simply exploring a possibility that has not been previously addressed; previous sources were simply written in that context.  So that is one thing we could be looking at.  Another is the line between evil and Reploid superiority, as I mentioned later in that post, and how the virus may fit with one but not the other.  In that case we'd be looking at not a retcon but rather some necessary splitting hairs.

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Though as far as his first rebellion goes, the extent to which he actually put the virus to use in gathering supporters is little indicated and entirely unknown. How Sigma came about his virus-enabled death cheat is even less clear. Maybe Serges had something to do with explaining that, since he built Sigma's X2 body for him. But it seems you don't even have to have mysterious virus powers to be revived, it never kept ol' Vile down. So even that need is somewhat loose.
As usual, lack of detail is true.  However the lack of information on the virus is to be expected as its existence wasn't public knowledge back then.  Sigma, in the original X1, does deliver an end-of-game message that he will return.

Vile, however, hasn't been reviving on his own, or at least he didn't in X3.  X8 doesn't seem to find the notable handicap of his being dead to be worth mentioning.

A possible untold sidestory in the interim (before X7, due to Axl not knowing him) would be my best guess.  If we're to take "V" as being a roman numeral (Zan tells me some japanese source states so, but I myself am not sure), we're likely be missing two Vile forms somewhere along the line.

On the other hand, Vile self-revives/death-fakes his way through the final X8 encounter, so who knows what was going on there.

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But, why would he decide that? The greatest advancements in robotics up to that point were made by humans, like Light, Cain and Wily. And while unbeknown to him, over a century later, would still be with researchers like Weil and Ciel's lineage. Human ingenuity advances the state of the world just as much as reploid. Human reliance on reploids pretty much guarantees both the need to continue production and to improve upon it.  Sigma is revered even as a guardian of humanity. So trying to kill them off... seems not so much logical, as simply hate inspired. And if there's one thing that an evil virus should do, it's inspire hate.
As Zan said it's more a lack of feeling than hated.  Whatever value human ingenuity has over a Reploid's is something very intangible that Sigma may well not acknowledge.  There is, after all, such a thing as Reploid researchers (see Gate).  He may consider the greater influence of emotions among humans to be a hindrance as he at first believed with X.  They're certainly physically inferior, and if Reploids can be just as cunning and intelligent, what need is there for humans any longer?  Why must Reploids waste time, energy, and numbers protecting them?

Sigma is in essence exercising survival of the fittest.  Reploids came into existence thanks to humans, they were necessary to establish Reploids as a respectable power.  But once Reploids have grown to the point of being able to dispose of that crutch, why shouldn't they?

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Offline Zechs

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Reply #130 on: July 12, 2009, 12:51:55 AM
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For some reason I can't shake the image of Axl tripping and landing face-first on a cookie cutter.

I left out the detail for a reason... Think of Axl being left for dead, tripping and landing on his back, or for some reason on his back face up... With liquid metal or something dripping onto his forehead and splitting at the nose bridge. Anything of the like not purpose is an accident. Not simple misfortunes.




Offline marshmallow man

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Reply #131 on: July 12, 2009, 08:24:43 AM
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In fact, we dont know much of how he died. Just that he "Died to save Gate" which could mean many things.

Turns out to be a tactful way of saying suicide. Turtloid ripped off his own shell and died so that Gate could not be punished for refusing the orders to weaken him. Thanks both to Vixy and Rodrigo for the screen caps, you guys rock!

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Speaking of things a bit vague, do we have any indication of how Axl figured he was a prototype, or did that just kind of happen? It's a bit of an odd transition from there being just Axl, and then a whole generation of them.

That transition seems as abrupt as Vile's reappearance. I'll dig around, but I haven't come across anything to explain.

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Two things about Dynamo are of note; though he worships Sigma, he's still in it for the money and he seems to have grown quite weary of fighting with the dangerous X and Zero. He and VAVA are just innately different, that is why VAVA just fits so much better within the events of X8.

A self proclaimed mercenary would certainly make sense, though we never really see him get paid, and I can't help but wonder where he was planning on spending all his money when that colony comes crashing down. I had thought he was probably going to get paid in riches and glory when the world was finally Sigma's.

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I wouldn't say hate... Much more a complete absence of compassion. Sigma doesn't seem to hate humans, he just doesn't care. Also, his plans don't just hurt humans; it's an evolutionary arms race that involves humans and Repliroids alike.

You can believe what you want, but I don't think anyone declares war on an entire race that they're simply indifferent to. A total absence of humanity is a requirement of his utopia every time he plots. Never subjugation or enslavement. I do believe that for him humanity represents both the scapegoat for slower than desired reploid advancement and everything wrong in the current world in general. However, I don't think these views are strongly logical or accurate.

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If we went by the concept art for Axl, I certainly find this feasible. But as it is right now, that scar is in an impossible to hit place, requiring even two attacks...

The helmet could have been repaired afterward, although it may also be possible that if Axl was transformed when the scars were received, the scars would be reflected on his skin when he changed back. I think Red's skill with his double ended scythe, twirled for rapid successive strikes across the face could be the perfect thing to make that "X".

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Remind me, does White Axl have the scar?

He doesn't, and the official X8 guide goes so far as to mention it in its description of white Axl's powers, as if it effected gameplay somehow.

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Why won't they tell us these things!?  I'm sick of pointless speculation; I want to know...

They'd really rather we discuss it endlessly. Somehow mysteries are often more appealing than knowing the answer to something. But there reaches a point where too many mysteries becomes "who cares anymore..." If X9 comes around, I do hope they do the honorable thing, and either explain things proper, or apologize like Turtloid.

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One aspect of X8's presentation that continues to linger in my head is the early reveal of Sigma's copy body.  X specifically asks Alia about it, and she doesn't seem to consider it unusual, or threatening.  You'd think that the possibility of second-hand corruption such as that would have been taken into consideration there, what with how infamous the maverick virus is, and the fact that they have partial-hindsight in that something has obviously gone wrong with the allegedly infallible.

Dense protagonist syndrome all around. Alia's been around Axl for a while now, but seem to be little familiar with New Gens in general. A bit like how they've known from the beginning that all the incidents had something to do with the Jakob Project, but they don't postulate on it until after Sigma pretty much calls them up and tells them his plan. I think Alia saw the Sigma data there, but doesn't understand how the Copy Chip is using it. Her agreeing with Lumine's earlier statement that just copying bodies shouldn't effect brain function drives home that just copying bodies isn't what's going on. They're copying way more.

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However you could say the same thing about X, who has no direct connection.  Sigma's interested in X's potential to advance Reploids, and has taken stabs at working X and/or X's data in his favor a few times since (X3 and X7).  Inti, meanwhile, was ready to have the original X as the genocidal lunatic you had to kill in Z1.

I don't really follow. X's potential for misguidedness was always a factor, and acknowledged by Light from the get-go. Not really fair to call X or what would become Copy-X genocidal though, unlike Sigma and the humans, Copy X never planned to destroy all reploids. Humans need reploids. He just saw no problem with sacrificing the more expendable ones so that humans could maintain maximum comfort. Still murderous, still racist, but not genocidal.

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And Inti really gave a generic BS/no comment answer when asked.

Seeing as how the questions were asked and answered from within Inti, I think it clear they wanted to bring up the point and were quick to express the possibility of it. I see it in much the same vein as Inafune's "maybe, maybe not" discussion of Sagesse in R20. They want fans to see the potential connections, but they don't want to tell you straight out. And for that matter, it's license for fans to go willy nilly as they like. They are gluttons for such evil.

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He's played his lot with Gate in the interest of recovering Zero, and Gate had already noticed Isoc's obsession, so Isoc knows he has to be more cautious.  At that point he probably just had to play the role through, rather than risk severing connections with Gate too early.

Any connection to Gate is only important if Isoc wants something from him, or wants to help him. If what Isoc wanted was solely to get his hands on Zero and kickstart the next round of Light bot vs Wily bot, then Gate just became useless. Thus I think Isoc's plans are more multi-faceted. Zero beating X is good. Dominating the world, also good.

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Vile, however, hasn't been reviving on his own, or at least he didn't in X3.

Sigma was revived by the Counter Hunters in X2, so if he already had them as backup for his plans, he didn't really need the virus to survive. It may only help ensure minimal data loss and expedite the process, or something.

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If we're to take "V" as being a roman numeral (Zan tells me some japanese source states so, but I myself am not sure), we're likely be missing two Vile forms somewhere along the line.

Guess I'll corroborate then, the "V" is said to stand for "Pente," from the Greek for 5.

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Sigma is in essence exercising survival of the fittest.  Reploids came into existence thanks to humans, they were necessary to establish Reploids as a respectable power.  But once Reploids have grown to the point of being able to dispose of that crutch, why shouldn't they?

I could think of some reasons, but I doubt they would have held much sway with Sigma...



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #132 on: July 12, 2009, 10:51:10 PM
Well, most of this is getting into differing interpretation, not much left to argue with/comment on.  But here it goes.

I don't really follow. X's potential for misguidedness was always a factor, and acknowledged by Light from the get-go. Not really fair to call X or what would become Copy-X genocidal though, unlike Sigma and the humans, Copy X never planned to destroy all reploids. Humans need reploids. He just saw no problem with sacrificing the more expendable ones so that humans could maintain maximum comfort. Still murderous, still racist, but not genocidal.
Pardon the vocab slip-up.  Racial mass-murder, but with the privelaged few remaining cozy.

My point is that such links in evil potential do not constitute a concrete link in terms of character relation.  Said potential is of course all that Sigma sees in Zero, as he never lived to see Omega.  Sigma is interested in ushering in a new world, and he sees in Zero a hidden power which he believes can be used to that end.  That does not mean that Zero himself, Awakened or no, is interested in such things.  And never over the course of the X-series did he show such an interest.

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Seeing as how the questions were asked and answered from within Inti, I think it clear they wanted to bring up the point and were quick to express the possibility of it. I see it in much the same vein as Inafune's "maybe, maybe not" discussion of Sagesse in R20. They want fans to see the potential connections, but they don't want to tell you straight out. And for that matter, it's license for fans to go willy nilly as they like. They are gluttons for such evil.
I don't consider, "maybe, maybe not" answers to be intended to encourage either view point.  I consider them a general reluctance by any story writer to write themselves into an unnecessary corner.  It preserves flexibility for future projects.

In a way, the whole "did Sigma rebel of his own will" discussion is the perfect case-in-point.  Some sources left ambiguity, some didn't.  All can fit with X8, but those that left some uncertainty have an easier time doing so.

To further the point we have had lots, and lots of experience with Inticreates' concepts not matching their final results.  A lot of that went down in MMZOCW.  X going villainous, the Three Keys, what the Guardians were doing during Z4.  So even if they did at some point consider a link, it would still say very little as to the finalized events.

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Any connection to Gate is only important if Isoc wants something from him, or wants to help him. If what Isoc wanted was solely to get his hands on Zero and kickstart the next round of Light bot vs Wily bot, then Gate just became useless.
Can that decision be made on the battlefield, though?  Is it acceptable to risk missing something in the moment?  Isoc isn't in any hurry, as long as he knows Zero is kicking, and High Max is no threat to him, he's willing to wait.  He claims to be capable of capturing Zero whenever he wants.  He could be curious as to what all Gate has accomplished, not only with Zero but also with Sigma, if by chance he is still carrying a grudge.  Is he certain whether or not other Hunters can interfere if he moves for a capture now?  There are tons of reasons such a decision needs to be made with a cool head.

There's no telling what Isoc's doing behind the scenes, and therefore no telling how ready he is.  He does, eventually, abandon his position with Gate, so it's hard to read too much into when.  Especially when the precise timing isn't known; never do we see Isoc active after that battle.  There's no telling when his body collapsed.

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Offline CyberXIII

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Reply #133 on: July 13, 2009, 12:25:13 AM
As little as we know about Toilet-Paper head, anything's possible there.

Is it still possible for Zero to Awaken again if he gets reinfected?

And am I correct in saying Lumine was immune to the virus, and yet still rebelled against humanity because Sigma's DNA warped his mind to Sigma's line of thinking?

Lastly, is Axl immune to the Sigma Virus too, or just the finished newgens?

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Offline Flame

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Reply #134 on: July 13, 2009, 01:06:14 AM

Is it still possible for Zero to Awaken again if he gets reinfected?
Zero never awakened in the actual storyline. He grew Stronger with the Virus, thus making X and Life savor think he was Maverick, but he never actually awakened. the same way the actual events of X2 are that X got all of Zeor's parts and Zero fought his Copy.

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And am I correct in saying Lumine was immune to the virus, and yet still rebelled against humanity because Sigma's DNA warped his mind to Sigma's line of thinking?
you are exactly right.

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Lastly, is Axl immune to the Sigma Virus too, or just the finished newgens?
he is just as immune as the New gens.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


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Reply #135 on: July 13, 2009, 01:14:55 AM
I miss when we could just blame the maverick virus. Now everythings all grey area



Offline CyberXIII

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Reply #136 on: July 13, 2009, 02:12:52 AM
If Lumine was corrupted by Sigma's DNA instead of his virus, then wasn't the result the same as if he had been simply corrupted by the virus in the first place?

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Reply #137 on: July 13, 2009, 03:59:33 AM
Not really.  The virus corrupts Reploids and makes them easy to control, though at times drives them nuts so it's not always the best option for stealthy operations.  The shpiel with Sigma's DNA and the New Gens basically makes them Sigma's equals.  They are not under his control, hence Lumine plotting against him, but they do share the same ideals of a "new world," which Reploids under infection tend to not blabber about.

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Offline CyberXIII

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Reply #138 on: July 13, 2009, 05:29:47 PM
So that's what Lumine meant when they could go Maverick at will?  They could basically take on Sigma's persona and mannerisms at any moment of their choosing, and rebel against humanity?

Who was stupid enough to build these guys in the first place?  Otacon wasn't this dumb...

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Offline Zan

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Reply #139 on: July 13, 2009, 05:54:17 PM
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Who was stupid enough to build these guys in the first place?

Sigma himself.



Offline Blackhook

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Reply #140 on: July 13, 2009, 05:56:17 PM
He kinda stated that before the fight... calling the new gen his children


Offline Flame

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Reply #141 on: July 14, 2009, 04:30:49 PM
Sigma, by whatever means, interfered with the project. Or maybe he insinuated it in the first place.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline CyberXIII

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Reply #142 on: July 15, 2009, 12:07:56 AM
That makes sense; Sigma's always been a genius when it comes to manipulating people; sociopathic, borderline insane, maybe, but highly intelligent.  I doubt that's what happened, but it makes sense. 

For all we know, Sigma may have shoved his Dna data in the mix when no one was looking...

If Lumine survived, does that make him the new maverick leader?

Oh, and when did Sigma give up his immortality?

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Reply #143 on: July 15, 2009, 02:57:10 AM
The reasoning behind Sigma being gone isn't really explained, although that aspect of the story was announced well prior to the game's release.  Based on preview trailers and Zero's ending, Lumine seemed certain that Sigma wouldn't return, but apparently that part of his speech was lost in translation.

Speculation is that Sigma dumped all of his viral energies into his final body, achieving a significant power boost over previous forms.  Other speculation is that the moon, being an isolated environment, with Sigma's only followers being viral-immune, left Sigma with nowhere for his consciousness to escape to.

Lumine's status is unknown.  If he survived at all it would most likely be through his attack on Axl.  But we don't know what happens to Axl after X8, only that he at some point recovers (and X doesn't believe his damage to be fatal anyway), since he is in Command Mission.

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Reply #144 on: July 15, 2009, 05:19:38 PM
I don't understand the "thinness of virus" logic anyway. Every particle of virus contains the entire program, that's the whole point, and if it's capable of replicating when there's a lot of it, why not when there's a little of it?



Offline Flame

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Reply #145 on: July 15, 2009, 05:25:13 PM
Simple. he needs a lot of it to sustain himself. In X5 the aaame thing happened. what im unsure about is this 'revival program" and how it relates to the virus and how it wasnt able to activate on account of too little virus...

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


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Reply #146 on: July 15, 2009, 05:55:08 PM
The issue isn't "thinness", it's there being absolutely nothing left.



Offline CyberXIII

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Reply #147 on: July 15, 2009, 07:05:58 PM
The isolation theory may actually have some merit, as long as X, Zero, and Axl are still immune to the virus by X9. 

Wasn't X originally immune to the Sigma Virus?

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Offline Align

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Reply #148 on: July 15, 2009, 09:29:06 PM
The issue isn't "thinness", it's there being absolutely nothing left.
This works for the moon (although it's exceedingly stupid of someone we've agreed is at least cunning to leave no backup plan), but not for X5.
Also, isn't Zero still a carrier?



Offline Zan

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Reply #149 on: July 15, 2009, 10:10:30 PM
We don't know how fast Zero spreads the Virus. And in X5, Sigma first spreads it on a global scale, then uses the Colony Virus to convert it to Zero Virus, only to get himself killed over and over again.