Topic: The Official Pokemon Heart Gold & Soul Silver Discussion Thread

[Keno]

Give me the old EV system (which is actually a system of Status Experience) of the GB and GBC Generations back! 
Why!? Why the new and retarded sytem with the max of 510 Effort Values? Make it to 1530 EV and I will be back to play Pokemon, the new generations.
I know I talked back about these things, but I really want it back, for goddamn long and glorious battles of the best and perfect pokemon! 

Who actually came to that retarded idea, to exclude the possibility to maximaze all of your pokemons stats? I say don´t fix something what doesn´t need to be fixed.

What the [tornado fang] is an Effort Value?

[Hypershell]

EV = Effort Value = the reason trained Pokemon of the same level and species are generally stronger than wild ones.

Get equipped with Serebii.net.

The fact that you can't max all of the stats actually allows players to be diverse and pick an EV spread that suits them.  Honestly, competitive Pokemon probably wouldn't be as interesting if everyone ran around with the exact same stats.

Which means something to players who research stacks of numbers to determine what is and isn't an excessive investment so that they can punch appropriate numbers into Smogon.  For the rest of us, who happen to be playing the actual games, 252/252 is not diverse.  The instances in which you WOULD want something different only make it more difficult to experiment.  If a move set change calls for a different focus on your stats, then barring a ridiculously large berry stock you have to raise a whole new Pokemon from scratch (and that's assuming your Pokemon is not Level 100 with intent to raise EVs over 100 in a single stat, which is unlikely).

Natures and IVs can accomplish any diversity goals by themselves.  The current EV system blows for one reason above all others: because it renders Pokemon actually used in-game worthless.  In the GB/C days, the Pokemon you played with were your best ones.  And that's the way it should be.

To add to that the current EV system is overly strict, allowing maxing of only 2 stats.  It severely damages the usefulness of mixed attackers.  Even a 765 EV limit would have at least allowed mixed attacks without hindering your damage dealt.  I don't think the phrase "SkarmBliss" would have ever been uttered if the GB/C stat experience system had been kept.

I also find the current system moronic in that your EVs from a given battle most often only go to a single stat.  The previous system gained all stats relative to the strengths of your opponent (literally their own base stats); it made a lot more sense.

Give me the old EV system (which is actually a system of Status Experience) of the GB and GBC Generations back!  
Why!? Why the new and retarded sytem with the max of 510 Effort Values? Make it to 1530 EV and I will be back to play Pokemon, the new generations.
I know I talked back about these things, but I really want it back, for goddamn long and glorious battles of the best and perfect pokemon!  

Who actually came to that retarded idea, to exclude the possibility to maximaze all of your pokemons stats? I say don´t fix something what doesn´t need to be fixed.

I'm very much agreed personally, but I doubt that will happen without another generational cutoff.  Otherwise cross-game battles place the older games at a severe disadvantage.

[Tickle Buffalo]

EVs may have some problems, but getting rid of them entirely isn't the way to fix things. :/


(Also pokemon you used during the game would still be worthless because they'd have bad IVs/natures/moves and nothing would be able to fix that.)

[Hypershell]

Nobody suggested "getting rid of them entirely", we are suggesting either bringing back stat experience which it replaced, or eliminating (or at least raising) the 510 cap.

(Also pokemon you used during the game would still be worthless because they'd have bad IVs/natures/moves and nothing would be able to fix that.)

That is the most ridiculous load of Mamoswine crap I have ever read.

If you think moves cannot be fixed you are not paying attention, given the wealth of tutors and deleters available in current games.  Moves can always be overwritten, at any level, any time.  

IVs and Natures are not applicable; they are decided at time of capture and never change.  You can compare, as soon as they're caught, to see if you have gotten a satisfactory result, and if you haven't there is no reason to raise it throughout the game.  There is no reason to level-up to check Natures and the only reason to level-up to check IVs is if you're intending to use Hidden Power or you're just a stickler about having the max, thus requiring the exact values.  If you're only after something reasonably good, you can check at a low level.  Even your Level 5 starter in the R/B/Y IV system (which is half the range of current games) shows some difference in final stats from IVs.  IV-checking was being done long before the GBA generation hit, and was not in any way "hardcore tournament player" exclusive.  Even regular gaming magazines noted the difference in freshly captured same-level Pokemon and recommended comparing in order to get the best.  That was back when Stadium was new.

[Keno]

Is that how they don't wind up the same with Rare Candies? [tornado fang] that. Grinding blows. I'd rather just use Rare Candies after the Elite Four.

[Tickle Buffalo]

Nobody suggested "getting rid of them entirely", we are suggesting either bringing back stat experience which it replaced, or eliminating (or at least raising) the 510 cap.

Letting you max out EVs for all stats, getting rid of them entirely, what's the difference? With a raised cap, every single competetive pokemon will have maxed EVs in all stats. Things would be the same as if they didn't exist at all. Except well I guess you'd have to add 63 to all their stats. It'd be like if all pokemon had all their IVs fixed at 31. I mean, yeah, IVs would still exist, but they may as well not. They wouldn't be doing anything.

(Incidentally, IVs being fixed at 31 would be totally awesome. Or 0. 0 works too.

Whatever, I don't care, just get rid of IVs. [tornado fang] IVs.)

If you think moves cannot be fixed you are not paying attention, given the wealth of tutors and deleters available in current games.  Moves can always be overwritten, at any level, any time.

So. About those egg moves.

Yeah.

IVs and Natures are not applicable; they are decided at time of capture and never change.  You can compare, as soon as they're caught, to see if you have gotten a satisfactory result, and if you haven't there is no reason to raise it throughout the game.  There is no reason to level-up to check Natures and the only reason to level-up to check IVs is if you're intending to use Hidden Power or you're just a stickler about having the max, thus requiring the exact values.  If you're only after something reasonably good, you can check at a low level.  Even your Level 5 starter in the R/B/Y IV system (which is half the range of current games) shows some difference in final stats from IVs.  IV-checking was being done long before the GBA generation hit, and was not in any way "hardcore tournament player" exclusive.  Even regular gaming magazines noted the difference in freshly captured same-level Pokemon and recommended comparing in order to get the best.  That was back when Stadium was new.

God, you'd be there all day just getting a starter. 3/25 to get the right nature, 11/32 to get attack above 20, same again for speed. And then you'd still get beaten by someone who bred to get a 31 in speed so he went first and killed you.

Is that how they don't wind up the same with Rare Candies? [tornado fang] that. Grinding blows. I'd rather just use Rare Candies after the Elite Four.

It's actually worse than that. You only get 127 bonus points to distribute among your attributes, so if you accidentally kill something that gives you EVs in the wrong stat, you permanently screw yourself. And the game doesn't [tornado fang]ing tell you ANYTHING about this.

[STM]

Welcome to metagame. Enjoy your pen-and-paper training.

[Keno]

Or just don't play multiplayer with douche bags that would bother even paying attention to that crap. They're the same types that catch & catch until they get just the right stat, but oh wait, that only happens every month because those types of people farm shinies. I don't hang out with people like that, so EVs are so far from my mind.

[Tickle Buffalo]

Welcome to metagame. Enjoy your pen-and-paper training.

I use notepad because I am high tech.

Or just don't play multiplayer with douche bags that would bother even paying attention to that crap.

It's kind of hard to go back once you've started fiddling with EVs and [parasitic bomb]. At least for me. I dunno, I feel bad not going to the effort to make my pokemon awesome. It's stupid, yeah, and I know it's stupid, but I still can't help it. It's like hoarding items in RPGs or something.

And anyway, people who know about EVs tend to know more about other aspects of pokemon [parasitic bomb]. Helps avoid battles against pokemon with like 3 different water moves or whatever, 'cause those really aren't all that fun.

[STM]

I use notepad because I am high tech.

[Jericho]

Awesome.

Coincidentally, I've had some SPM music stuck in my head for days now.

[Keno]

It's kind of hard to go back once you've started fiddling with EVs and [parasitic bomb]. At least for me. I dunno, I feel bad not going to the effort to make my pokemon awesome. It's stupid, yeah, and I know it's stupid, but I still can't help it. It's like hoarding items in RPGs or something.

And anyway, people who know about EVs tend to know more about other aspects of pokemon [parasitic bomb]. Helps avoid battles against pokemon with like 3 different water moves or whatever, 'cause those really aren't all that fun.

I disagree. Moves are meant to be fiddled with, hence why they're shown to you. EVs are meant to add a "random" factor to make each individual Pokémon unique. They're to add realism, not to be abused. Besides, it would bother me a whole lot more to not love each of my Pokémon for who they are. I like naming them all, using what species I like, & growing attached to them all. I mean, hell, I still have my original team I used to beat the Elite Four the first time. Oh Poliwrath my friend Chris traded me, how well you served me.

But that gets me started on how shitty I think the lack of legacy in 3rd generation was. Why was it so hard to handle it that time around?

[Tickle Buffalo]

I could argue that not bothering to EV train your pokemon shows that you obviously don't care that much about them, because you're not willing to put in the effort to make them the best they can be. But maybe I won't, because arguing over who cares more about their pokemon is silly.

And, well, regardless of what EVs were meant to do, what they do is increase stats, and that's what I'm going to use them for. Even if I could forget how they worked, I wouldn't, because I like knowing how the game operates. The more I know, the better I can play. Not playing at my best is performing a disservice to whoever I'm up against.


Somehow I doubt we're ever going to agree on this.

[Keno]

I could argue that not bothering to EV train your pokemon shows that you obviously don't care that much about them, because you're not willing to put in the effort to make them the best they can be. But maybe I won't, because arguing over who cares more about their pokemon is silly.

No [tornado fang]ing way. They'd much prefer to be given candy. I mean, it's their reward for all their hard work getting to Cinnibar/Elite Four. You sound like BLUE. You gotta love your Pokémon, man. It's not about who wins & who loses; it's about having a good time.

And, well, regardless of what EVs were meant to do, what they do is increase stats, and that's what I'm going to use them for. Even if I could forget how they worked, I wouldn't, because I like knowing how the game operates. The more I know, the better I can play. Not playing at my best is performing a disservice to whoever I'm up against.

So you grind against Zubats all day long? How is this fun? I mean, lots of people won't play X6 because of the tediousness of rescuing all the reploids, but at least even then the information is in front of you.

Somehow I doubt we're ever going to agree on this.

No, because you're a cheater that uses guides. Memorize all the EVs & manipulate them & we'll talk about legitimacy.

[TeaOfJay]

Personally, I like the EV system since it at least gives non legendary pokes a chance at taking on the Legendaries without struggling like they should. Plus it adds a layer of complexity that the game normally wouldn't have before.

It's really fun to take out an all legendary with an EV trained team. The look on the other guy's face is priceless.

[Tickle Buffalo]

No [tornado fang]ing way. They'd much prefer to be given candy. I mean, it's their reward for all their hard work getting to Cinnibar/Elite Four. You sound like BLUE. You gotta love your Pokémon, man. It's not about who wins & who loses; it's about having a good time.

Their happiness goes up when I give them vitamins!

So you grind against Zubats all day long? How is this fun? I mean, lots of people won't play X6 because of the tediousness of rescuing all the reploids, but at least even then the information is in front of you.

It's cool, it only takes like an hour. It's quicker than grinding them up to a level they'll evolve at sometimes. I've got that whole hoarding items thing going on like I mentioned earlier, so I try to avoid using rare candies all that often.

No, because you're a cheater that uses guides. Memorize all the EVs & manipulate them & we'll talk about legitimacy.

Bidoof's 1 HP. Geodude's 1 defence. Gastly's 1 special attack. Tentacool's 1 special defence. Starly's 1 speed. All available at very low levels, all in very great quantities. (1+4 for a power item)x2 for pokerus means 10 EVs per kill, so go in with max PPs, wait until I'm 15 PP down, and then remove the power item and hit one more guy, mission accomplished.
Attack's a little harder, but that just means I use a power bracer while training another stat. Or take advantage of doduo if it's swarming. Doesn't swarm too often though. Life's tough.

Memorising what EVs every pokemon gives would be pretty hard, but you don't really need to. Just enough of them.

[AquaTeamV3]

No [tornado fang]ing way. They'd much prefer to be given candy. I mean, it's their reward for all their hard work getting to Cinnibar/Elite Four. You sound like BLUE. You gotta love your Pokémon, man. It's not about who wins & who loses; it's about having a good time.

The move Return pretty much nullifies your argument.  I should also note that all of my pokes on my team are Ev trained and their happiness is maxed out.

No, because you're a cheater that uses guides. Memorize all the EVs & manipulate them & we'll talk about legitimacy.

 

If it's cheating, then how do you explain the existence of the Effort Ribbon?  The Macho Brace and Power Items would also like a word with you.

Their happiness goes up when I give them vitamins!

Exactly!

[Legendary]

Vitamins+Battles used to gain EVs=Return maxing out=Your PokeMon loving you.

Which means the argument about level grinding to prove you love your PokeMon more is not only odd, considering it's just a game, but also a waste of time, as EV-training pretty much maxes the happiness out faster.

...again, though, why do you expect sprites from a Game Card to return your affection?

[Tickle Buffalo]

We should all chip in to get Keno a copy of Love Plus so he doesn't need to seek love from pokemon.

[Waifu]

I hope none of you here turn out to be one of those Stop Having Fun Guys.

[Legendary]

Is it impossible to have fun by playing a game competitively? D=

[STM]

Some people do have fun doing that kind of calculation and planning. Others just enjoy ripping through the game without any other factoring.

[Keno]

It's cool, it only takes like an hour. It's quicker than grinding them up to a level they'll evolve at sometimes.

Only an hour? Boy, your time must be pretty easily spent to play Pokémon for an hour straight & not even be doing anything interesting. As for grinding, being quicker than it is not a good measure of quickness. Grinding sucks too. Hence my love of Rare Candies.

Bidoof's 1 HP. Geodude's 1 defence. Gastly's 1 special attack. Tentacool's 1 special defence. Starly's 1 speed. All available at very low levels, all in very great quantities. (1+4 for a power item)x2 for pokerus means 10 EVs per kill, so go in with max PPs, wait until I'm 15 PP down, and then remove the power item and hit one more guy, mission accomplished.
Attack's a little harder, but that just means I use a power bracer while training another stat. Or take advantage of doduo if it's swarming. Doesn't swarm too often though. Life's tough.

Memorising what EVs every pokemon gives would be pretty hard, but you don't really need to. Just enough of them.

You remind me of those pinoys that ruin Ragnarok by knowing everything about everything.

The move Return pretty much nullifies your argument.  I should also note that all of my pokes on my team are Ev trained and their happiness is maxed out.

Because in-game happiness is a poor indicator. It's always been a constant theme in Pokémon that too much fighting & no play makes Pokémon abhor their trainer, regardless of how you can get to happiness either way.

If it's cheating, then how do you explain the existence of the Effort Ribbon?  The Macho Brace and Power Items would also like a word with you.

Well, the ribbons are there for women in the first place, so I have no idea what any of them are.

...again, though, why do you expect sprites from a Game Card to return your affection?

We should all chip in to get Keno a copy of Love Plus so he doesn't need to seek love from pokemon.

Of course they don't love me back, but that doesn't mean I don't love my beloved Char. Not everyone that has a Tamagotchi thinks it's in love with them.

Some people do have fun doing that kind of calculation and planning. Others just enjoy ripping through the game without any other factoring.

I like calculation & planning, don't get me wrong. I just do my calculation with numbers I can see & my planning with Pokémon & move set choices.

[TeaOfJay]

Only an hour? Boy, your time must be pretty easily spent to play Pokémon for an hour straight & not even be doing anything interesting. As for grinding, being quicker than it is not a good measure of quickness. Grinding sucks too. Hence my love of Rare Candies.

While I can agree that grinding can get tedious, you have to remember that just flat out using rare candies on a Pokemon is actually worse than grinding for a particular stat. Pokemon is the sort of game that you get back the effort that you put in to it. I'd rather spend that hour slaying Zubats or whatever to bring my Pokemon to the top of its game then let it suffer stat wise because it's faster.

You remind me of those pinoys that ruin Ragnarok by knowing everything about everything.

That's not knowing everything, nor does it ruin Pokemon for people who like to play casually. All he showed was that it's easy to find a Pokemon that raises EVs for a certain stat early on in the game.

Because in-game happiness is a poor indicator. It's always been a constant theme in Pokémon that too much fighting & no play makes Pokémon abhor their trainer, regardless of how you can get to happiness either way.

Actually, it's more along the lines of battling constantly without healing and constantly being knocked out in battle that makes a Pokemon hate their trainers. Even magical monsters need rest. So using items on it when it's needed (or not needed) makes for a happier Pokemon.

Well, the ribbons are there for women in the first place, so I have no idea what any of them are.

Uh, I think he means the prize ribbons and not necessarily the ribbons that are worn in hair. Prize ribbons are unisex, and don't necessarily mean that they're for women.

Of course they don't love me back, but that doesn't mean I don't love my beloved Char. Not everyone that has a Tamagotchi thinks it's in love with them.

I doubt anyone here thinks a bunch of pixels like them. They're just arguing that the in-game happiness measurement has very low standards.

I like calculation & planning, don't get me wrong. I just do my calculation with numbers I can see & my planning with Pokémon & move set choices.

I'll admit that the numbers behind Pokemon EVs and IVs are very well hidden, but that's what makes Pokemon so interesting. On the surface it's the simplest game ever. But when you dig deep enough and see how the numbers work then Pokemon becomes the most complex thing ever. It's working those behind-the-scenes numbers is what makes Pokemon a competitive game.

Also, if you really wanted to know how EVs and IVs work, it's not hard to just Google it. I'm sure there's a few hundred websites that detail just how these numbers work and how you can manipulate them.

[Tickle Buffalo]

Only an hour? Boy, your time must be pretty easily spent to play Pokémon for an hour straight & not even be doing anything interesting. As for grinding, being quicker than it is not a good measure of quickness. Grinding sucks too. Hence my love of Rare Candies.
You remind me of those pinoys that ruin Ragnarok by knowing everything about everything.

Understanding what's going on doesn't ruin the game, it makes it better. If I wanted a game where I couldn't even tell why the winner came first I'd just play Mario Party or something.