Okay, here we go. Again, I feel this discussion has reached the point of both of us explaining personal opinion until we're bored to death, and I've long since passed that point. So I'll just chime in at some key lines and leave it at that, this discussion has already gotten unproductive to me. We both know where the other's opinion lies and re-stating it over and over isn't going to get us anywhere.
You brought it up, man.
It was a rhetorical question. My point is there is nothing distinguishable in Omega's character to link him to Awakened Zero more so than to any other villain. He's just evil and is a Zero body. In my mind there's more to it than that.
MHX Zero
An entirely separate debate which we argued to a stalemate, however I do not believe one should be trying to logically apply gameplay and cutscene logic in the same manner. You could have a field day with quite a few games that way. Thus notions of Zero's gameplay abilities in MHX are irrelevant.
If Zero is to be obsessed only with proving himself better than X, he is doomed to repeat Forte's fate of sometimes being at odds with his own creator's plans.
If we're to presume Wily is pursuing world domination during his alliance with Gate, as you have previously argued, then this already happened when Zero fought High Max. And Wily not only did not care, but was delighted.
Bear in mind that Zero is derived in some manner from Bass, I don't think a similarity between them would be odd at all. However, a key difference is that Bass seeks recognition as the world's mightiest robot. Zero on the other hand tends to be indifferent to the opinions of others.
Only when we ignore Sigma.
Sigma claims that Zero is meant to follow him. I do not consider him a reliable source as to Zero's true nature. He strikes me as someone who doesn't know what he's dealing with. He has gotten a peek at it, however, which is more than any non-Wily-linked entity can say for themselves during the X-series, so X8's Complete Guide doesn't really tell us much. Sigma lusts for power, and sees untapped power within Zero. I don't see why it has to go any deeper than that.
There is a bit of a trickle-down effect here from our differing views on Wily's allegiance to the evil big-shots of 21XX. You believe him to be honestly working towards the goals of Sigma and Gate and as such there is less room for doubt in second-hand information. I do not. That heavily impacts the reliability of Sigma's words. But even if this was not the case it would not be absolute, since there is the eternal question of how much Sigma saw/was told and how much he is assuming.
As such the reappearance of it in the Zero series demonstrates a greater understanding of Zero's past and perhaps his body than has been known to anyone outside of Wily and Sigma for the known series beforehand.
That X, and by logical extension Zero, are more fully understood in Zero-series timeframe than before is common knowledge. The Big Four, Zero's weapon data, the modified Z-Saber, and Zero's copy body all point to that.
And, although perhaps canonically questionable, you could say the same of Command Mission's Absolute Zero.
The two working together in X5 both fail at returning Zero to his intended self.
I have a hard time believing that Weil succeeded where Wily failed. I don't believe that Zero's "justice" self is without relevance to Wily's design, or that Wily honestly attempted to remove it outright. To override/push it aside, that's another matter.
Again, our differing views on Wily's 21XX goals heavily influence our views on other aspects of the storyline. Wily's intent is an aspect of the storyline which is left very open-ended, and at the same time it heavily impacts the rest of the story. Individual interpretation goes a long way.
Better ideas might be to spray one's enemy with an evil virus upon defeat.
Given X's high viral immunity, that's hardly a sure thing.
To actually make a secondary personality that would take over based on damage taken and subsequently be extremely difficult to re-submerge is so counter productive that maybe only someone truly mad would think it's a good idea.
Because Wily is the model of sanity.
There's a lot to take into account, though. For one thing the assumption that Wily hasn't had a change of heart over the course of Zero's development is in and of itself a rather large one, given that Rockman World II already established other possibilities (would go a long way to explaining the interchangeable busters).
There's also the fact that a virtuous personna can more likely live and battle without being hunted down. Zero, like X, grows more powerful through combat. If he spent his entirely life as a destructive force it'd make him a target, possibly hindering his progress depending on how the current-day technology compares to his own performance.
As for Zero starting out evil, that could be a necessity of him being the initial virus carrier. Then there's the infamous blue-gem-of-death. Zero wasn't beaten fair and square in X4, a mysterious W on his head stopped him. Given that Inafune has stated that the virus ties to Wily's revival, there is a LOT of room for speculation as to what was going on there.
It is the exact same can of worms. The important feature is the premise itself, not in how the details play out. That is that Weil used portions of the same personality program for Omega that Wily wrote for Zero.
Either way it is fact that Weil had a hand in Omega's programming. Without the ability to differentiate what Weil did and did not write, we cannot take traits from one and apply them to the other, rather the two must be judged as individuals. That's been my point all along. Statements such as "they're the same character with a different master" are highly speculative, and I personally believe, false.
Omega in no way shames the evil Zero's legacy.
Of course not. But I find Omega to specialize more in longevity than in offense. The mass destruction associated with him is generally attributed to Weil's armor. In one-on-one combat, I don't see Omega (that is, Zero body) as matching AZ.
Omega's move that's labeled Messenko isn't much like the one from X5 (though Model OX's is).
As I discussed when you revealed those terms, I believe that to be a typo. Model OX's moves are clearly derived from Omega's attacks of the opposite names, and Omega's attacks from X5/X6 attacks of again opposite names. In other words, X-series reversed yeilds Omega, which reversed again yields OX, so that X-series matches to OX. Basic pattern recognition says that was most likely an error.
I can't help but smile at Messenko being labeled inferior, though. The normal 9-blast Messenko of X5 would have been much harder to dodge than the CPU Zeros' 8-blast Shin Messenko. Despite its name it really is a nerfed version that allows the player a more sporting chance. Of course Omega's moves are realistically nerfed too, and that doesn't mean that they aren't canonically more powerful than gameplay makes them appear. It is a fuzzy transition from story to gameplay.
True enough, but I'd definitely call Omega's Messenko (Rekkoha by the guide) more nerfed than Shin Messenko.
Adding "Kai" under normal circumstances would imply that the revision is an improvement upon the former, but this seems to be the opposite if evaluated simply from gameplay. I conjecture that its canonical form lies somewhere less than invincible instant kill move
I doubt it canonically renders Zero invulnerable given the lack of visual effects. I do not doubt that it would canonically annihilate whatever is unfortunate enough to get caught in the attack, again, given that once you see it victory is impossible.
"Kai" is the arguably weaker form regardless. The original Genmurei uses two blades in a wider pattern. Genmurei Kai fires only one blade at a time (albeit he performs the move in a set of three, but then Awakened Zero is not limited in the number of Genmureis he can perform in a set). Being able to dodge a 2-blade attack is plenty conceivable, you'd need only alter the flight path.
but was utilized in gameplay to give added challenge by adding a time limit to the battle.
I have to object to that. It is far more of a challenge to intentionally view Genmurei than it is to prevent it, as the time it takes before Zero will use it is ridiculously long. Genmurei strikes me not as a challenge but as an easter egg, in reference to Sigma's line of Zero "almost" evolving into his true self. I cannot imagine anyone has ever seen it unless they were intentionally stalling.
The lesson is hardly that evil is stronger than good, or that Awakened Zero is invincible.
X (and Zero as well) continuously grows stronger over time. Evil CAN be stronger momentarily, as canonically happened with High Max, Great Redips, and who knows how many X1 opponents. X would rise to the challenge if given due time. The only way to kill him would be to make a substantial leap and act then swiftly so as to not give him that chance (I never thought of this, but maybe that's why Zero faced X before the transformation was finished, the longer the wait the more of a gamble, as baddies have known since Xtreme2).
High Max WAS invulnerable. Completely. There was absolutely nothing X could do to harm him. Next bout, X's buster stuns him, a definite leg up from before. So even in such utter hopelessness X can still prevail in due time. But if High Max obtained such status (temporarily), then why couldn't Awakened Zero (again, temporarily)? Especially since High Max is himself a Zero derivative.
Gate's battle armor follows the same principle, being vulnerable only to its own energy.
Omega, merged with the Dark Elf, would have even more right to be invincible
I am not convinced that the Dark Elf is an adequate substitute for a colony full of Sigma/Zero Virus. Dark Elf is derived from Mother Elf, a force of good. Dark Elf has viral origins in that Mother Elf was derived from virus research, however that doesn't necessarily mean that it mimicks Zero's reaction with it (does the Nightmare awaken Zero?). Mother/Dark Elf can power up any host and Omega is exceedingly powerful in his own right, thus the combination is naturally devastating. I'm still not convinced that matches Awakened Zero.
That Omega doesn't use it might be a bit disappointing, but not seeing him using Genmurei or Shingetsurin doesn't necessarily mean he can't use it. Just like CPU Ultimate X in X5 not using Nova Strike or many of his other X4 or even X5 special moves doesn't necessarily mean he can't.
I'd say X has a far wider arsenal (to say nothing of him being a likely less ruthless opponent, as he is not fighting with intent to kill) than the evil Zeros. By your own admission Omega's arsenal is the widest yet delivered.
What enters into gameplay is but one aspect of such a character.
True enough.
Still, if Omega had used it, would that really prove the case he is Zero's evil persona?
I really mentioned that as more of a power comparison than a personna comparison, granted that line is blurred as Awakened Zero's personna is seemingly linked to such unlocked power.
How honestly can a technique Zero hasn't used before X5 be directly related to his original personality which was programmed before Zero even acquires the weapon which he would use to perform it?
The general superior prowess with the saber as opposed to the buster flies in the face of that regardless. I believe you mentioned earlier the possible lack of optimization in the X1 body. Throughout both X6 and Z1 it is made abundantly clear that the Z-Saber is linked to Zero's power.
End of Part 1. I'll tackle the rest later if I feel so inclined.
Show Posts
You know, Nintendo, I really really want to pay you for old games that I can play without having to bum off of my brothers, hook up old consoles, or hell sometimes I just want to support the authors (MegaMan 1-3). But you're making it extremely difficult.