Messages

2501

X / Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus

« on: April 17, 2010, 03:57:03 AM »

Which is all fine and dandy with Sigma's infection, but it doesn't go with the irregulars being virus infected before Zero even awakens.

That's more a matter of probability than possibility.  Non-viral Mavericks are a reality, so the question is, would so many have risen to justify the formation of the Hunters?  Who knows, maybe in the early batch program errors and the like were more common.  The virus wasn't known to the Hunters until X3, so Zero Collection's timeline is clearly jumping around in that regard.

Looking at the other side, though, if Zero was already infected during stasis, then why is his fight with Sigma relevant at all?  What is the logic in battle damage allowing re-infection of something Zero was already sleeping in to begin with?

It's not an easy statement to reconcile.

Then, what of Sigma? With Sigma saying "from that DNA", you can't quite relate its origins to a capsule...

Zero shouldn't even have the same DNA data in X8 as in X1, given that the Control Chip is the only part to survive that timeframe.  But Zero and the virus (or the strain he was sealed with, anyway) have the same creator, and were developed towards a common goal.  That they should share a similarity, regardless of Zero's time of infection, is only natural.  That Sigma should associate it with Zero is only natural.

I get the feeling something like the ethical testing routine was also performed by Zero's capsule, which required the Sigma Virus.

An excellent thought which may well be key to solving the above dilemma.  I suppose that if the capsule was testing viral reactions, and the virus was meant to rid Zero of his uncontrollable violence, it is possible that unlike X, Zero was woken prematurely.  Who knows, that may be the entire reason Capcom/Inti decided to push Zero's creation so much later than X's.

In this case, one could figure that being woken prematurely interrupted Zero's "final" infection to correct his violent nature, thus the effect would not yet apply, and Sigma's battle is what allowed it to finish.  I suppose that works.

What I'm mainly not buying with the early infection theory, as you presented it, is a particular detail which is not key to the scenario: That is, that interrupting it ties to Zero's allegiance, or lack thereof, to Wily.  That, we do not know, and with Zero being for a fact infected as a result of the Sigma battle, before the virus is known to the world, it is extremely unlikely that the virus was not allowed to run its full course at that time.

While the virus makes Zero more open to instruction, I'm not convinced that the virus provides that instruction.  If it did, it would leave Zero too easy to manipulate by the likes of Sigma.  Given Zero's constant Wily dreams, such as X4, I'm banking that Wily has an independent means of instructing Zero, and that the virus, by quelling Zero's emotions, simply clears his head so that he will listen.  I'm also not convinced that the X1 body was ever intended to fully Awaken in the first place.

2502

X / Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus

« on: April 16, 2010, 11:52:41 PM »

I guess I'm just not holding to Zero being infected before the Sigma battle.  It's still "Zero's" virus in that it shares its origins with him.  It came from the same place Zero came from.  It infected Sigma when he fought Zero.  It clearly maintains a link with Zero over the course of the series.  Irregardless of the time of Zero's infection, why shouldn't the virus be associated with Zero?

Whether it's Capsule -> Sigma or Capsule -> Zero -> Sigma is not something that we can expect older sources to accommodate when they predate the notion of drawing lines between Zero and his capsule in the first place.  When before Inti's Zero Collection timeline was Zero's capsule EVER part of the viral equation?  Again, Inafune's words may consider Zero's capsule as an extension of Zero in light of this.  If it's from Zero's capsule, from investigating and battling Zero, then it's still from Zero.

We should also consider that, Zero and Sigma being infected as a result of the same battle, that Zero's infection may have taken hold sooner than Sigma's.  Wasn't there some sourcebook quotes about evil brewing in Sigma gradually, or something to that effect?

In that scenario, Wily's timing is absolute crap, though. However, the part of "circumstance", is not to be forgotten...

I was actually suggesting that, in connection with my earlier line about mental states, that Zero's consciousness needed to be shut down for a bit in order for the virus to do its work in modifying it.  Kinda like how PC updates do not apply until rebooted.  In this case, that reboot was a punch in the head.

But, its statements to coincide with what RZOCW told us: Zero is the first infected with Sigma Virus, he is the source.

Besides what I already stated above on battle timing, we should also consider that it was the Three Keys that told us that, thus we must take it with the accompanying disclaimer.  Although I'd much sooner accept Sigma's slow descent into evil than Inafune and Inticreates retconning Zero's origins as they were during Z3's concept.

On that matter, why is Zero even immune to the virus? He was sleeping in the very same capsule that contained the virus. Perhaps Wily is building up Zero's immunity by constant exposure? Or is Wily running something similar to X's 30 years of ethical testing?

That's the big question, isn't it?  Perhaps the single biggest piece of information we are still missing is why Wily kept Zero and the virus separated within the capsule in the first place.  We can only guess.

But on viral immunity, I would suppose that even though Wily has a specific plan for Zero and the virus, he also must see to it that the virus doesn't present a means for others to manipulate him, as it does for other Reploids.  Zero is a real "rule-breaker" in the virus book in that despite his immunity, he is not indifferent to it.  It affects him, but not in the way it affects others.  How/if the capsule separation ties into that is something I think we'd all like to know.

2503

X / Re: X7-X8 never happend?

« on: April 16, 2010, 11:08:51 PM »

That's a pretty loose connection given that the Hunters already know that Zero doesn't show standard viral reactions during Eurasia.  Even if that were not the case, it could easily be answered by digging into the definition of a host.  A "piece" of the host Reploid that survived the host's "death", intact enough that it preserves said host's DNA data, could very well work as a viral culture of sorts.  Remember, we're only talking about a few weeks' survival.

The Sigma Virus can utilize a great deal of technology; it is not limited solely to conscious Reploids.  Magna Centipede's computer core, not to mention Eurasia itself, stand as testament to that fact.  So does Zero's capsule in light of Inti's new timeline.

2504

X / Re: X7-X8 never happend?

« on: April 16, 2010, 10:44:36 PM »

I think this part is very important, as it is the one aspect that only we as the player saw. Nobody else knows the source for Gate's irregularity.

For that matter we as players would not know that it wasn't an isolated incident if not for Inti telling us, twice.  Gate's infection is in the aftermath of a tremendous viral assault on Zero.  That Zero's infection is contagious following that is no small stretch; that it is so on a regular basis is not something that even we as players would have established without MMZOCW and the Zero Collection website.

2505

X / Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus

« on: April 16, 2010, 10:25:03 PM »

I suppose, for the purpose of the earlier books "Zero's capsule" could be considered an extension of "Zero" in the same manner that pre-Sigma strains of the Maverick virus are still referred to as "Sigma Virus".  The terminology being as loose as it is already, it really is something we should consider, particularly with regards to the source of Sigma's infection.  Never previously was there a reason to draw a distinction between Zero's capsule and Zero himself, in terms of where the virus was brewing.

As for the status of Zero's own infection, the RPM book seems to be speaking in "maybes", so they can be dismissed as implications rather than facts.  On the surface, this does seem to show that Zero's origins have been changed.

But that's not to say we need to discard all that the book has told us; there are ways of re-interpreting it rather than discarding it.  In light of Inti's timeline, the train of thought I'm usually seeing is that the virus exposure is what caused Zero's headache, and some scratch from earlier allowed the viral infection.  But we don't know that to be the case.  It seems senseless, if Wily deems it necessary to guard Zero against the virus for the time being, for such trivial scratches (no visible harm came to Zero, so any damage prior to the head-punch was exceedingly minor) to wreck his immunity.  For that matter, should physical armor be all that important in preventing computer virus infiltration in the first place, or as with X, should we instead be looking at mental states?

Moving Zero's birth to 1XX years ago mandates that Wily was alive (read: already cheating death) and completed Zero relatively close to X-series timeframe, so it confirms Wily as a possible background character during all X-series events.  Suppose the W-headache is not a viral reaction, but a control measure akin to X6's force field.  Wily could be stopping Zero in mid-battle, making the call that he is now ready for viral infusion, and Zero would have been KOed, and infected while he was down.  Both sources would remain true as to who, Sigma or Wily, is responsible for Zero's initial infection, by having both play a part in it.

As for Zero being "born with" the virus, that could simply be read to refer to the "Hunter" Zero.

For the effects of the virus in later games, most notably X5, there are several things to consider.  One, we're dealing with new viral strains, which could be tailored to have different effects.  Two, we're dealing with a different Zero body; the X1 body may have never been intended to awaken but could instead be a safeguard to perfect Zero's consciousness without unleashing his full power too soon.  Three, for all his power and seeming evilness, Awakened Zero is not in the least aggressive, challenging X openly, waiting for him, and caring nothing for the other conflicts of the world.  If the virus's effect is read not as allegiance, but as curbing Zero's emotions, then the effect remains constant: Zero's emotions growing progressively less severe from flashback, to Hunter, to Awakened.  From raging out of control, to balanced, to indifferent.

Overall, while the timeline provides a lot of new head-scratching details, there's still plenty of ambiguity to work with.

2506

X / Re: X7-X8 never happend?

« on: April 16, 2010, 07:32:34 PM »

Over the next week or two I don't intend to have as much time as usual to sit in front of the comp, so I'm going to limit my response here to what was specifically addressed to me.

Zero as the source of the Nightmare was expressed first by Isoc to the entire world, then confirmed by Gate himself to the Hunters.

Isoc and Gate spoke in very different capacities.  Gate admitted that he created the Nightmare based on his research on Zero.  Isoc claimed that the Nightmare actually was Zero, as in, Zero was directly responsible.  You're blending two very different stories together and claiming them to lead to a single end whereas in fact the two are not even compatible, and thus your point could not possibly be more invalid.  Gate's word, and Gate's alone, holds.  Isoc's does not.  The mere fact that Zero exists separate from the Nightmare invalidates Isoc's announcement.

Zero was known to be a Sigma virus carrier by the end of X5

You're neglecting the Colony/Zero virus, with data so similar to Zero's (hence Alia herself naming it), it suggests that in this instance the virus was being tailored towards him.  Sigma lends credit to this by naming Zero as the goal of the entire Eurasia incident.  While Zero's reaction to the Sigma Virus is unusual, events after Eurasia blew hold for the specific virus strain released at that time.  Zero himself knew he was gaining power in response to the Sigma Virus alone.  The Hunters did not; Lifesaver was suspicious of Zero's reaction to antiviruses.  Signas, even in the face of that, was not willing to label Zero as a threat, instead suggesting that Zero may have built up his own resistance.

That Zero can be exploited is old news; it's been happening since X2.  What is key to Zero's seal is when the leap is made from the enemy being able to use him, which the Hunters already know, to Zero's mere presence constituting a threat, which they do not.

The last issue, that Zero is contagious to his environs, is the only precursor that we might be able to toy with.

Besides the fact that previous issues were not as concrete are you're presenting, this particular issue is also the most critical, as it is a survivor from Three Keys we know for a fact that it's early concept being reinforced.

I'll also put forward this notion: To split the timeline at X6 requires X6 itself to present the split.  It only works if X6 itself suggests it, and the "completed Zero ending" makes no explanation as to why Zero is being sealed.  No additional information is gained while playing as Zero that does not come forward while playing as X.  Thus we have a problem: While it is perfectly plausible for a change in Zero's judgment to bring about an early seal, that is not in the least what Inti told us.  By telling us that it became known that Zero is inadvertently spreading the virus, Zero's seal cannot take place in the middle of the X-series unless that has come to light.  At no point in X6 was that so.

Zero himself seemed to recognize the danger his very existence presented in his X5 ending where he discovers the meaning of his dreams, but perhaps he's forgotten that information post his revival.

Or he realized that even when he is not present others will still try to abuse him, which is exactly what happened with Gate.

But that's all from searching for a loophole that would serve my hypothesis and refusing to accept the face value of the new information given.

I find the complete opposite to be true.  Your hypothesis of ditching X7+ is based on a great deal of conjecture and lack of detail; it is in no way more valid than the alternative.  Inticreates didn't just name the Nightmare, they named the rationale by which the Nightmare is linked.  If this rationale has not been presented yet, then the seal has not happened yet.  Your proposed explanation for how it has been presented in X5/X6 is severely lacking in consistency and, by your own admission, cannot accommodate the final key (the discovery of Zero spreading the virus) leading to Zero's seal.

We're talking about the same Inti that created a timeline split right off the bat for ZX?

That's a very apples-and-oranges comparison you're making.  ZX's split maintained both forks simultaneously, and both by Inticreates.  It's akin to X4 except without the sequel attempting to merge the two immediately.  The fact that both are expanded on equally justifies them in itself.  It allows some flexibility for player preference, and also allows Inti to explore the series backstory from different angles (in ZX, Vent focuses on Zero-series links, while Aile focuses on the more recent past).

The X-series, however, lacks current development, which discredits your "freeing the series" idea.  By refusing to name MMZ's century (something I have brought up repeatedly and you have been either unwilling or unable to explain), Inti has still maintained enough leeway that the X-series can do whatever it wants without dropping any games.  Even if they were to split, XCM limits the main X-series to 21XX anyway, not that a date change would accomplish much.  And killing the heroes?  Nobody in their right mind does that with a playable character, lest we get the suspiciously similar replacement for the fans to [sonic slicer] about.  If Capcom were honestly open to that they would have had X take the series solo at X6, but they know better.  Meanwhile, they can kill any other character they wish (including Sigma, as we're well aware), since none of the supporting cast appears in XCM.  I'm quite certain they did that on purpose.

2507

Gaming / Re: Pokemon Trainer Dress Up thing.

« on: April 16, 2010, 06:57:24 PM »

I could believe that as Wily before balding...

2508

Gaming / Re: New Super Mario Bros. Galaxy 2 Wii Turbo Edition

« on: April 16, 2010, 06:56:05 PM »

Love the SMW athletic theme in there.  That's quite possibly my favorite.

2509

Gaming / Re: New Super Mario Bros. Galaxy 2 Wii Turbo Edition

« on: April 16, 2010, 03:44:51 AM »

Personally, I'm hooked on the map battles:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsClEoR-AlA[/youtube]

NSMBWii.

By "Bros.", I meant the most recent one, as in exactly that.  The "competition" if you will, for the foremost Mario title on Wii.

I don't need to remind you guys of the bitchfest that went on among gaming editors for NSMBWii's lack of orchestras and particle effects, do I?

2510

Gaming / Re: Why can't all games be in the same format?

« on: April 16, 2010, 03:40:21 AM »

......you completely missed the point.  He's talking about region-locking, not varying platforms/programs/what-have-you.

IE: You buy Namco X Capcom and cannot play it on an American PS2.

2511

Gaming / Re: Why can't all games be in the same format?

« on: April 16, 2010, 01:04:32 AM »

Power = why a system shouldn't be plugged into an out-of-region outlet, NOT why a system shouldn't be playing an out-of-region game.  Nobody in their right mind designed a console that supplies 100V of electricity into a cartridge; and obviously it's irrelevant for optical media.

2512

Gaming / Re: New Super Mario Bros. Galaxy 2 Wii Turbo Edition

« on: April 16, 2010, 01:02:39 AM »

2D segment

In before "NSMBWii would be better if it looked/sounded like this" editor comments.

(EDITS: Clarified)

2513

Gaming / Re: Pokemon Trainer Dress Up thing.

« on: April 16, 2010, 12:57:01 AM »

I'd complain about lacking some member of the Dratini family, but the 'mans aren't exactly drawn that well anyway.

Ah well...



And also:

Pants? Pfft don't need them~

I like the way you think...

2514

Gaming / Re: Why can't all games be in the same format?

« on: April 14, 2010, 02:02:40 AM »

Ask a PR rep and they'll tell you that region-locking helps them guarantee quality, culturally-appropriate content.

But I'd say the truth is closer to Bag of Magic Food's post.  Imported games are not found easily, and often the individual doesn't give a damn about their region's sense of political correctness.  To warn is one thing, but to forbid outright?  It's senseless.  It only serves to antagonize the consumer and encourage console hacking.

That is one thing I miss about Nintendo's cartridges; their region-lock was a piece of plastic.  Very easy, and unquestionably lawful, to hack.

2515

Gaming / Re: The Official Pokémon Black & White Discussion Thread

« on: April 13, 2010, 01:42:13 AM »

Had to LOL at Moofy.  That's actually a pretty good idea.

Kinda glad it's fake, though.  They REALLY went overboard on the oddball type combinations.  And all the new dragons look mediocre.

2516

X / Re: X7-X8 never happend?

« on: April 13, 2010, 12:17:01 AM »

Aarf!

2517

X / Re: X7-X8 never happend?

« on: April 13, 2010, 12:09:51 AM »

The Hunters knew Zero was infected with the Sigma Virus during X5, and at that same time they recognized that while he did not register a "Maverick reading" his power output grew in response. That itself was enough to lead Signas to believe Zero had the virus antibodies inside him, and that itself would be reason enough for the governing humans to want to have him decommissioned and dissected. We saw Signas order this information be kept secret, but some Lifesavers shared that info with X, and who knows who else. And that's all before Isoc announced to the entire world that some ghost of Zero was responsible for spreading the Nightmare virus.

Suspicious circumstances surrounding Zero weren't new to the Nightmare, though, as you yourself pointed out a lot of this was discussed before X6.  Heck, even Gate calls the Hunters out on it, that Zero's unknown nature carries great risk and yet the Hunters refuse to dispose of him as they did Gate's own works.

But see, by bringing to light what the Hunters knew prior to X6, you only establish what Inti is not talking about.  For them to reference the Nightmare incident, and not Eurasia (which is already mentioned in this timeline, not to mention a major contributor to the storyline of Z4), says that something beyond what the Hunters had established in X5 came to light.

So instead of just repeating that process of "that can't be what they really meant," and trying to find loopholes by which to hold on to our old conceptions as cataclysm fans have been doing for over a decade, I would rather acknowledge that maybe the wording sounds so much like Zero sealed himself after X6 because that is exactly what they are trying to say.

There is a tremendous difference between justifying fan-based conjecture such as the cataclysm and trying to reconcile all officially video game sourced information as has been presented to us.  To discard theory is one thing; to discard the games themselves should be done only as a last resort.

And I can't speak for anyone else, but you needn't explain the value of a branching timeline to me.  Before ZX I was among the more adamant fans suggesting that Legends may continue off of Eurasia impacting Earth, and frankly the fanfic-daydreaming of that scenario never stopped anyway.

But if they did that here, then to what end?  As a matter of pattern recognition I just don't see breaking from X6 as something Inticreates would do.  As off-the-wall as their storytelling gets, they enjoy throwing obscure references out there, such as B&C and RM&FWS.  They worked hard towards maintaining Legends as the eventual future without writing themselves into a corne.  And, I will re-iterate *AGAIN*, if their true intention was to write X7-XCM, or even XCM alone, out of the Zero-series timeline, why have they not adopted the date of 22XX for the Zero-series events?  It'd be a lot less outrageous than their estimate of the birth of Zero.

I've been wrong before.  But even if they would, nothing says they did.  As Zan said, a retcon is a last resort to erase a contradiction; not a cop-out answer to contradictions that the fans create.  Retconning out full games is simply the fans jumping to conclusions.

2518

Gaming / Re: The Official Pokemon Heart Gold & Soul Silver Discussion Thread

« on: April 11, 2010, 05:58:17 PM »

Rattata is in the top percentage?

As far as the Endeavor abuse goes, yeah.  But that tactic period is not in the top percentage because passive damage wrecks it (and Sandstorm/Hail/Stealth Rock/Spikes are everywhere in "standard" competition).  It's also obvious, because there's nothing else an unevolved 'man 80 levels lower than you is going to do, and it's possibly setup bait.

2519

Emulation / Re: Riivolution: Wii patches for original game discs.

« on: April 11, 2010, 05:51:21 PM »

Riivolution does work with the normal file locations, I'm using that method myself.

Ah, yeah, that depends on which XML file you're using.  The second one on the page I linked uses the locations that Diego is providing, which coincide with the locations necessary for older hacking methods.

The first of the two Brawl XMLs start with "ssbb/" in the root of your SD card instead of "private/wii/app/RSBE/".  The folders from there down are the same.

2520

X / Re: X7-X8 never happend?

« on: April 11, 2010, 05:46:49 PM »

Actually, X's capsule was opened considerably long after the 30 years were up.  X was born "2XX years ago".  Zero was born "1XX years ago".

2521

X / Re: X7-X8 never happend?

« on: April 11, 2010, 05:22:56 PM »

In light of MMZOCW's timeline, that can only be true if said revelation explains where Weil and Cyber-Elves have been since X6, very hard to do given that the Elf Wars are supposed to be named for Cyber-Elf abuse yet unseen.  Furthermore, it's exceedingly bad storytelling to write in a 50 year disappearance that X7 does not acknowledge.

Also, though not impossible, it'd be inconvenient to reconcile such a thing with Omega's arsenal.  It would mean that Weil has a lot of copying to do himself over the course of Z3 (Buster Shot, chargeable Z-Saber), and by what rationale he'd be trying to imitate the "cheap fake" is anyone's guess.

Yet they way they wrote this makes all of that seem just like what is being said. ESPECIALLY the sealing. they really make it sound, to any ol' joe, like the sealing happened right after X6 when the government "finds out he was the source as a carrier of the virus"

Actually, the opposite is true.  That Zero is a carrier of the virus was not revealed in X6, therefore, the seal cannot immediately follow it.  X6 never revealed that Zero was a carrier, it revealed that Zero is exploitable.  That's two very different things, and that Zero is exploitable was already established both in X2 and, to a lesser degree, X5 (even if Zero never awakens, the Hunters do notice his viral reaction, X included).  It was not revealed to our heroes that the "piece of Zero" that Gate was working with had already contained viral data, or even Sigma's (which it did, as the sourcebooks tell us; it was key to Sigma's revival).  The Nightmare, as far as the Hunters were ever told, was a Zero derivative, and that's it.  Sigma Virus was not part of the equation, as far as they were aware.

What this says is that the Nightmare incident bears future discussion at some point in the X-series timeline.  It's that simple.  It's something X8 already did with X5's Zero Virus.  And it's not all that inconceivable with the current story arc, either.  Though Sigma is (allegedly) out of the picture, some New-Gens retain interest in Zero, as shown by Bamboo Pandamonium.

2522

Gaming / Re: The Official Pokemon Heart Gold & Soul Silver Discussion Thread

« on: April 11, 2010, 03:13:03 AM »

First video is an old, old trick, dubbed FEAR by those who prefer Rattata (and I really wish Pichu could learn Quick Attack so that the Gamestop Event one could actually do something).

Second video, I can just hear the player.  "YELLOW FOREST HATES ME!!!"

2523

Gaming / Re: Pokémon Gen5 on the way

« on: April 11, 2010, 03:07:09 AM »

Wait a minute...I just noticed that the trainer looks awfully Cephiyummy!   

...she does, doesn't she?  Especially that second one with the floaty-arms-walking pose.

2524

Gaming / Re: The Official Pokemon Heart Gold & Soul Silver Discussion Thread

« on: April 10, 2010, 10:36:27 PM »

I think it worked well enough once you had enough money to buy a decent selection.

More than visuals, though, I loved entering my own catchphrases.  "I need DRAGONITE power!"

But yeah, the game had no voice chat (we say this of all online Nintendo games but it's especially noticeable when it's something the portable counterpart already got) and the difficulty curve was almost nonexistant (there's three colosseums that are really freaking hard, and the rest are [acid burst]-poor).

Their take on the "baby" battling was fun, though.  Any 'man's basic form, as long as it has some evolutionary tree, at Level 5.  If only Onix, Sneasile, and Scyther didn't break it (and maybe to a lesser extent Misdreavus).

2525

Gaming / Re: The Official Pokemon Heart Gold & Soul Silver Discussion Thread

« on: April 10, 2010, 10:25:25 PM »

I'll be the first to admit that Battle Revolution isn't Nintendo's deepest project, but Trainer customization > minigames any day of the week.

If anything, my main criticism with Battle Revolution is that it has no update for the Platinum forms, limiting the use of Giratina, Shaymin, and Rotom.