Messages

601

Gaming / Re: Legend of Zelda - The official Zelda thread

« on: July 02, 2010, 03:39:17 AM »

At current the Master Sword and Triforce are about the only things mandating a link between LttP and the OoT branches.  Most story points these days may be seen as a continuation of the Vaati arc, particularly Ganon himself, seeings how OoT Ganon is likely dead in both forks and FSA provides the origin of trident-wielding Ganon.

Whilst it is true that the FSA provides many characteristic elements necessary to transition comfortably into LttP's story, it is the plot in the game's manual that absolute mandates some connection to Ocarina as well. After all, Ocarina's story was based on that very legend which introduces elements such as the Master Sword, the Triforce, the Sacred Realm and Dark World and especially the sages seal. All of these elements being present in some fashion in FSA, but removed entirely from focus as theirs is of little relevance to that game's plot.

Of course, LttP itself admits that these very legends it tells of are in no way fact, word of mouth changing facts and time obscuring the boundary between fact and fiction. Ocarina is but such a small aspect of the underlying truth. Too bad that underlying truth also has many contradictions to address, such as at the same time having to account for both the disappearance of the sea Zoras and the existence of the acient Hylian structures. Which strangely mandate branching out both ways from Ocarina.

the original LoZ has left us with one more Ganon death than we can account for, and no effort has been made to address that;

That depends, if Miyamoto´s mentioned order is correct; the Silver Arrows leave Ganon in quite a predicament. However, from simply LttP beyond, there are the concepts from Ancient Stone Tablets, which has no problem with making Ganon seemingly self reviving or otherwise some strange side effect of Link's wish on the Triforce. Though the "actual" events of AST hardly fit the continuity because of the Satellaview mascot, its story does give us some insight into the minds of the developers.

Overall, the original game's backstory has remained very self-contained, with no other title proving itself relevant to its setup.

Within the overall Hylian lore, the state of the Triforce is a fairly important matter that needs some setting up, which preciously little titles could account for. As for LoZ/AoL's effect on the other games; somehow or other the sleeping Zelda myth needs to find its way back into the series.

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Gaming / Re: Legend of Zelda - The official Zelda thread

« on: July 01, 2010, 03:16:37 AM »

I mean, we could be here all day trying to figure out what in the hell all LttP details of the sealing war are supposed to refer to.  Even if we time-travel back to N64 days when we had 5 or so games to worry about, there are plenty of minor inconsistencies and a mountain of ambiguous points which can be brought against a direct OoT-to-LttP connection.

Practically all continuity issues in the Zelda-series stem from plot of LttP and the NES games. They don't even fit comfortably with each other, let alone trying to connect it to all the new titles.

I mean, without the classic titles, we could all happily accept the 3D titles and Four Sword as separate continuities and we'd have no plotholes bigger than Vaati not exactly being sealed in the Four Sword in his origin title. However, as things are right now, all roads lead to LttP, but the bridge is out and will never ever be repaired.

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Gaming / Re: Legend of Zelda - The official Zelda thread

« on: June 30, 2010, 05:54:10 PM »

Whole thing seems to me more like a sort of remake than a sequel, since they were giving the fans what they wanted. A game that's more OOT-like.

Because both temples look so much alike, amirite? lolwut

They don't look alike yet you consider it more of a remake?... That's quite the contradiction there.

Really, the game just tries to be a similar experience to Ocarina by being its direct sequel, that's all. Naturally they would remake the world to be more vast, similar yet different, new yet nostalgic. All of this is made entirely clear in the plot by reintroducing us to the Ganondorf of Ocarina.

It's just a [tornado fang]ing order that at most is only relevant for the game's setting, it's not an epic story that take place across generations, it's just a freaking order.

Right now, we're restricting the discussion to just Twilight's Ocarina roots, knowledge of which is required to understand certain details of Twilight's plot, such as the Triforce, Ganondorf and the Master Sword.

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Gaming / Re: Legend of Zelda - The official Zelda thread

« on: June 30, 2010, 03:51:31 PM »

In games like Zelda, you just can't trust Word of God statements. It's either in the game, or it's complete bullshit.

Looks like you just can't get over the fact that you didn't understand Twilight's setting. If you would replay Twilight with Aonuma's statements in mind, it all makes perfect sense; the game was built as a sequel to Ocarina.

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X / Re: Zero's now an OCR Mascot!!

« on: June 29, 2010, 09:39:22 PM »

As for the energy crisis sealing, all I meant was that he sealed himself. I'll see if I can get it fixed so it says something like "A while" or something. If Zero-series Zero becomes a mascot in the future, I'll write that bio and include this stuff.

You should simply say that Zero sealed himself for 102 years. Leave the ZERO-series out of it.

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Gaming / Re: Legend of Zelda - The official Zelda thread

« on: June 29, 2010, 05:11:42 PM »

You mean the OOT/MM/WW/PH/ST continuity, because Twilight Princess and the Vaati games don't really fit anywhere.

No matter how much of an ass-pull you think it is, Twilight connects to Ocarina in the same way Majora does. Which is different from Wind Waker. Word of God, regardless of the quality of ingame intent delivery.

And naturally the Vaati titles fit as their own separate trilogy. For now.

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Gaming / Re: Legend of Zelda - The official Zelda thread

« on: June 29, 2010, 03:43:03 PM »

Argh, conspiracy theorizing about ass-pulls. =P

Argh, matey. Everything's an ass-pull to you.

This statement is from 1998/1999, when Ocarina of Time had just come out. Back then, attempting to piece together the Zelda games was still easy.

Zelda2 Japanese manual:
Long ago, when Hyrule was still one country, a great King was said to have used the Triforce to maintain order in Hyrule.

Triforce of the Gods Japanese box:
This time, the stage is set very long before the time when Link accomplished a feat, the epoch when Hyrule was still one kingdom.

Which actually states the opposite as Miyamoto, unless you interpret the quote from the box as actually in reference to that game's backstory; the events of Ocarina, the imprisoning of Ganon. In which case Miyamoto's order works out.

608

Gaming / Re: Legend of Zelda - The official Zelda thread

« on: June 29, 2010, 02:53:07 PM »

Miyamoto isn't Grant Morrison. He doesn't set up huge stories through years so we can follow small details of them through convulted timelines that may or may not relate to each other. The dude makes games. For gaming. And in each game, he makes a whole new experience. I've yet to see a game from him which was actually a "sequel" to anything story-wise, instead of a whole new thing.

Miyamoto is the "all gameplay" type, whereas Aonuma is the one aware of continuity. Evident in their interviews with Miyamoto confused about the time travel endings of Ocarina, and Aonuma having to explain it. Miyamoto just isn't the only person on team, and where he doesn't care, there are others who do.

MC->FS->FSA->the rest

This is actually one of the more disputed statements. During FSA's development, Aonuma spoke as of "thinking" of Four Sword as the oldest tale, and in another interview there's noted original intend of this being a  "new Hyrule". However, several months later Aonuma admitted FSA's story changed all the way till the end. Which leaves it entirely unclear, other than FSA's ties as some sort of prequel to a Link to the Past.

---------------

Aonuma: The GBA Four Swords Zelda is what we’re thinking as the oldest tale in the Zelda timeline. With this one on the GameCube [(FSA)] being a sequel to that, and taking place sometime after that.

Aonuma: In an example with Four Swords Adventures, I was the producer.. I didn’t actually put the story for that game together... Mr. Miyamoto then came in and upended the tea table... we changed the story around quite a bit... storyline shouldn’t be something complicated that confuses the player... and the storyline changed all the way up until the very end

---------

    Nintendo Power: "This title is the third game in the Four Sword series. Did you plan it as a trilogy from the beginning?"

    HF (Capcom): "We did not think to develop a trilogy from the beginning. When we developed the first Four Swords game for GBA, we created a new Hyrule legend that said that a long time ago, evil Vaati brought crisis to Hyrule and people sealed that evil. We had some thought that we wanted to carry over that story into future titles some way."

SS->OoT

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all Nintendo said was "the Skyward Sword becomes the Master Sword." Which actually implicates two possible settings. Not just SS->OoT, but also ST->SS. The post Wind Waker setting requires a return of the Master Sword, after all.

The OoT->Zelda 1 and 2->LttP comes right from Miyamoto's mouth actually.

The weird thing with Miyamoto's timeline statement is that the game manuals and boxes implicate the exact reverse. However, it works considerably better once you add in the sound and drama somewhere in the equation.

http://zeldapower.com/index.php/features/articles/sound_and_drama_-_the_script.php

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X / Re: Zero's now an OCR Mascot!!

« on: June 29, 2010, 01:55:46 PM »

Go ahead. Most of the info was from his timeline.

Timeline is outdated and missing some info, but still accurate. However, you'd think people would be aware of the Zero Collection site's information in regards to Zero's backstory... guess I was wrong....

1XX years ago
    The birth of Zero

    Zero was produced by Dr. Wily, who schemed at taking over the world. But he contained a flaw in his cognitive program that made him violent and unwilling to obey instructions, so Dr. Wily himself sealed Zero in a capsule.

1XX years ago
    Zero awakens

    Receiving information of Zero awakening from his capsule and causing violence, the Maverick Hunter Sigma finds and intercepts him. during this incident, Sigma is infected by the unknown computer virus leaking out from Zero’s capsule, but at the same time Zero, having his armor damaged in the battle with Sigma, also becomes infected with the virus. Due to this, Zero’s personality completely changed, and he would turn to working as a Maverick Hunter.

He would be a fully playable character in all subsequent installments, including the Game Boy Color-exclusive Xtreme series.

Only Xtreme2. But that is the one chronologically after X3.

His power and abilities are much greater than that of X

After X1, this is rubbish.

During the events of Mega Man X5, he finally did what he was created to do, and fought X in a battle that was supposed to be to the death.

After the X series, he seals himself up for a century, only to be awakened in order to save the Resistance in the first Mega Man Zero game on Game Boy Advance.

Leaving X6 out of things is just plain wrong. X7+ too, but on a lesser note, as it is X6 that ties into Rockman Zero. And you made the incorrect assumption that the sealing leads directly to Energy Crisis incident; after more than 50 years its interrupted by Elf Wars, Zero's copy body and yet another one hundred year seal.

610

Gaming / Re: Legend of Zelda - The official Zelda thread

« on: June 29, 2010, 01:19:29 AM »

Why are people still trying to piece together the Zelda games into a continuity/timeline? What good will come from that? Nintendo doesn't care about continuity.

That kind of talk is nothing but turning a blind eye to what is actually established. As I said in my previous posts, a great deal of games are connected in order as undeniable fact and they continue to be produced with continuity in mind. Spirit Tracks is proof positive that Nintendo DOES care.

Yes, you listed some games that have a clear continuity, but that's only a fraction of it; there's more than that. Really, when it comes to Zelda's continuity, it's simply a manner of sticking to the facts (as in ANY canon). Just don't try to connect titles of ambiguous nature with rampant theorizing in the gaps. But apparently the Zelda community is so fond of this that Zelda has gotten this bad name of having no continuity at all. Which is as much a false claim as the supposed infinite plotholes that exist in the MegaMan story; the fanbase is apparently incapable of keeping their facts straight.

Not just the differences. Aside from some positions, it's a completely different world. Few centuries don't change the landscape so much.

Game design is really the biggest factor to this. And it's not just Zelda. Metroid and Rockman have the exact same issues with revisited environments being completely different in unbelievable timespans. Let alone Castlevania which actually tries to make a plot excuse for this phenomenon.

As I said, people making the game don't care much about making continuity. They just want to provide a good experience, independent from all the other games.

Nintendo may have priorities, but that doesn't mean they complete and utterly do not care about continuity. All it does is provide a reason for the occasional unclear ingame references of their intended premise, as in your Twilight examples.

611

Gaming / Re: Legend of Zelda - The official Zelda thread

« on: June 29, 2010, 12:27:56 AM »

And then stuff like world map inconsistensies, the new location of the Master Sword, the fact that other than a few tiny similarities, the whole world is very, very different, and that it's basically a new Ocarina of Time, like fans requested.

More than a century has passed since Ocarina of Time, factor in the fact that game design demands you make it different, of course the entire world map has its differences from Ocarina. Even Four Sword Adventures changes the world map completely, and that's the same Link in the same place as Four Swords.

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Gaming / Re: Legend of Zelda - The official Zelda thread

« on: June 29, 2010, 12:08:40 AM »

When playing the game, there's absolutely no continuity between them, except for "oh, this MIGHT fit here, IF this happened this way". It's an ass-pull.

I thought Ganon's entire backstory in Twilight more than enough established continuity toward Ocarina and favored the intended time travel shenanigans. Particularly the details behind the Triforce and the existence of the Temple of Time.

The only true connections are Ocarina of Time-Majora's Mask, Wind Waker-Phantom Hourglass-Spirit Tracks, The Legend of Zelda-The Adventure of Link, and Oracle of Seasons<->Oracle of Ages (these can happen in either direction). Because of the possibility of branching, WW cannot come after MM.

As quoted in my previous post, the possibility of branching is entirely confirmed, OoT>MM>TP, parallel to OoT>WW>PH>ST.

I wouldn't say those are the only "true connections", either. For one, the Four Sword games as a trilogy of MC>FS>FSA is undeniable.

Furthermore, there's the more obscure, but definitely confirmed, LttP>LA. Stated here:
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n02/dmg/azlj/sutori.html

Finally, OoT was said many times to be before LttP and the NES titles. It's just the way this connection works out, and the way the everything else connects to everything else that ends up giving people headaches.

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Gaming / Re: Legend of Zelda - The official Zelda thread

« on: June 28, 2010, 11:25:35 PM »

Twilight Princess, aside from the similarities to OOT, doesn't really seem like it's connected to anything in the first place.

Personally, when I went through the story of that game, I felt its premise worked entirely with what Aonuma stated. When you add Majora's Mask to that, it works out even better.

Interviewer: When does Twilight Princess take place? Eiji Aonuma: In the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years later. Interviewer: And The Wind Waker? Aonuma: The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember? Twilight Princess takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years after the peace returned to kid Link’s time. In the last scene of Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk, and as a consequence of that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there's a scene showing Ganon's execution. It was decided that Ganon be executed because he'd do something outrageous if they left him be. That scene takes place several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and now he wants to obtain the power...

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Gaming / Re: Legend of Zelda - The official Zelda thread

« on: June 28, 2010, 10:16:52 PM »

This is just about continuity and timeline in-between games, not relevant to the story of each one.

But the setting and story of each title is influenced by how Nintendo perceives its placement in the continuity. The moment these connections are made, the Zelda experience is greatly enriched. There is an actual continuity, and Nintendo is making an effort to uphold it, it's just that one shouldn't overthink the connections with the older and more obscure titles. Like actually connecting anything to LttP and the NES titles is overdoing it. But all the 3d games are connected with little to no problems.

Ocarina of Time-Majora's Mask-Wind Waker-Phantom Hourglass-Spirit Tracks. Those are the only ones that connect between one another in any kind of coherent way.

Actually, all of the 3d games thusfar have an established continuity. Ocarina of Time also connects to Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess, after all. It's just connected in a different way than the Wind Waker does. This has been extensively made clear by Nintendo, explaining the specifics in regards to Ocarina having two endings; adult and child timelines. Wind Waker is the adult timeline in which Ganon got sealed in the Sacred Realm by the sages, Majora and Twilight are the child timeline in which the Sacred Realm was never opened.

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Gaming / Re: Legend of Zelda - The official Zelda thread

« on: June 28, 2010, 04:32:16 PM »

I promised myself never to waste a single thought on continuity or timeline matters. It's meaningless and doesn't affect gameplay at all.

Naturally the story is meaningless if all you care about is the gameplay. But part of the Zelda experience is still the magical setting and the plot that unfolds within the game. You simply need that for the gameplay itself to acquire additional meaning. Just enjoy the story, enjoy the connections to other games, but don't stress one self with connecting dots when there are none.

Not to mention Zelda's continuity is constantly rewritten.

You know, as much as I'd like to fault Nintendo for this, I blame mostly the fanbase. They're throwing around claims of "retcon" and "non-canon" all over the place as if there's no established continuity whatsoever to then vehemently cling to minute details in order to enforce a backwards interpretation.

Personally, if I were to establish a timeline in the Zelda continuity, I'd start splitting it in three.
-From Ocarina, go with the time travel shenanigans to on one end have Majora and Twilight and on the other end have Wind Waker and its DS sequels.
-The Four Sword story in its own trilogy.
-The classical titles in a mostly garbled mess that can go in any order.

Interconnecting these three is somehow everything leading to LttP in matters that hurt the brain.

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Fan Creations / Re: Rebirth of the Rockman-Themed Stolen *Bleep* Thread!!

« on: June 27, 2010, 09:30:51 PM »

http://thatld.deviantart.com/art/Transform-Blue-Bomber-168935419

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Zero / Re: Why didn't Copy X just blast the Resistance base?

« on: June 22, 2010, 08:05:46 PM »

Naturally they needed the missile to level the district, making Dark Elf stunned and out of hiding, with Omega able to freely move about. Or something like that.

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Fan Games / Re: Mega Man Unlimited

« on: June 22, 2010, 06:47:38 PM »

Phil, I've never let out even a word about quality here. I don't think your game sucks and I prefer it if you didn't read every post as if I were making that claim. Likewise, I'm not forcing you to redo the graphics anytime soon, I'm only telling you that you should educate yourself about the intricacies of these things more. You know, become aware of what it is you're actually not doing for a reason.

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Fan Games / Re: Mega Man Unlimited

« on: June 22, 2010, 05:26:25 PM »

But these are fangames, and we can all agree that mm10 and mm9 have jumped the shark a tinsy bit with their limitations. I guess the fangame community will have the freedom to do the same.

What I'm mostly trying to get across here is awareness of what is and what is not possible. Don't just say "R9/10 did it so we can too", but educate yourself in when, how and why these games do the impossible. When the developers broke the limits, they knew wholly well they were, because they went to the trouble of educating themselves on what those limits actually are. If you can do the same, then a lot of your other observations about the inner workings of classic Rockman should fall into place by a newfound understanding of these mechanisms.

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Fan Games / Re: Mega Man Unlimited

« on: June 22, 2010, 02:34:31 AM »

Just like, take comments and critique to heart, push those pixels and take advantage of how easily the medium can be edited. Part of the essence of being a pixel artist is right there; tweaking till its perfect.

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Fan Games / Re: Mega Man Unlimited

« on: June 22, 2010, 02:23:19 AM »

Are you trying to tell me I'm not a perfectionist?
You think that after working like crazy for at least a year and a half on this project making graphics, music all that stuff in my free time, that I don't have a profound respect for those that were making games back then!? Wow...

Must you view it so negatively? I did not mention either your current level of perfectionism or respect. I only spoke of a certain level of perfectionism higher than you already might be working at, and I spoke of deepening any respect of classic gaming you might already have. Simply noting there's an unexplored area you're missing out on.

As I see it, you're right now disregarding the 'technical' limits without having a wholly clear idea of what those technical limits are. Just do a bit more research on the matter, think about the problems associated with classical game designs, think about possibilities and impossibilities and ways to work around that. And then, knowing how things are supposed to work, you can truly make the conscious decision of disregarding it or not for the sake of even better balancing quality and quantity. After all, it just seems odd to go through great lengths to figure out Capcom's disappearing block logistics and then to not wholly indulge yourself in the logistics behind the graphics of Ninendo's console.

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Fan Games / Re: Mega Man Unlimited

« on: June 22, 2010, 12:46:36 AM »

Geez. I'm just trying to stick with very few colors and have fun. That's all.

I guess you don't really have the mindset for this level of perfectionism... But what I'm trying to make you see is there's a whole world you're missing out on; the world of gaming in its classic days.

Whilst working under these limits, striving for authenticity and so finishing great work leads to a fulfilling sense of accomplishment, there is also an aspect of enlightening oneself by delving into the inner workings of gaming in the classic days, figuring out your own solutions to classical problems and realizing why classic games are the way they are. All of that will develop a profound respect for those that were making games whilst their imagination was being restricted by the hardware they were working on.

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Fan Games / Re: Mega Man Unlimited

« on: June 21, 2010, 08:42:55 PM »

As some of you know, I try to stick to 4 colors whenever I can but I'm not bothering too much with the rules about the limitations. I want to have fun too.

You should know there's great fun to be had in the challenge that is making pixel art under self-imposed limitations.

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Zero / Re: Why didn't Copy X just blast the Resistance base?

« on: June 21, 2010, 12:32:23 AM »

Wait, how do you know about Zero being under--

She asked an electronic elf, "Is there hope for us anywhere?" She felt the elf's whisper echo in her heart. She knew she must investigate the "historic ruins."

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Fan Games / Re: Mega Man Unlimited

« on: June 17, 2010, 08:35:09 PM »

It's nice and all, but why is it slanted even in the vertical direction? Unless someone can't hold their camera upright, there's no real reason the buildings should be anything but straight up.. Especially since at this resolution and color count the long diagonal lines start getting very rough and wobbly. Which pretty much brings me to my next point; if you have the colors, why not employ AA? Though, I have my doubts about the color count to begin with.