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576

News and Announcements / Re: MEGAMAN UNIVERSE!!!!!! (PS3/360)

« on: July 19, 2010, 03:24:01 PM »

Wait what?

Get equipped with the Reploid Research Lavatory.

577

News and Announcements / Re: MEGAMAN UNIVERSE!!!!!! (PS3/360)

« on: July 19, 2010, 02:05:59 PM »

I hope one of them does, cause this doesn't seem like anything that major...

Megaman and crew being robot like "Humanoids"/Cyborgs,
Megaman's early box art,
Wily being Light's assistant just prior to Megaman 1,
Megaman knowing about Protoman being his brother
Almost all of Megaman 7, Including the added "Die wily"
Zero's unification "prophesy" and blueprints,

-Inconsistent names everywhere. They can't even stick to their own stuff.
-The existence of Monsteropolis; that multi faceted land of robot-like humanoids.
-Roll going completely unmentioned and unnamed until MM3/MM4, and even then there are those sources considering her either a new character, or not a robot at all.
-Exclusion of a LOT of facts that were originally written in the manuals.
-Plasma Cannon versus a Rock Buster with Solar Bullets, in fact, MM4 made it sound like the Mega Buster was introduced in 4; it was only upgraded in 4.
-Time Skimmer, Chronos Institute, 37 something years into the future.

-Altered the game instead of properly translating them (X2, X3, X5, MM7, PU, ZERO, Legends, EXE4+.). Resulting in Serges' character being butchered, Vile being killed years ago while it wasn't nearly that long and Vile haunting X in his dreams while he should actually be reviving again and again, Wily being a comrade of X's, Rock being more than a robot when he isn't, ProtoMan outright exclaiming Light is his father when he wants nothing to do with Light, Rock being called "Blue Bomber" instead of "Original" by his copy, everybody making too many puns in an already overly cutesy game. A hand held gun being the Z-buster; rectified in Z-collection. Confusing what a Decoy is by naming them Carbons and somehow introducing yet another name; Betas. Confusing the mankind playback plan with what Juno was doing. Changing the origin of Rock Voulnutt's name. "What a fine young man she is.", abbreviating terms like crazy and cutting out a lot of content.

-The Reploid War lasting centuries while we're still in the same century (21XX)
-Zero acting weird to an anti-virus while he only acts weird to the virus itself.
-Exclusion of X's in-depth schematics and Right's deeper warning about worrying.
-Nearly all dates in Cain's Journal being off, two journal dates being unified as one, and there being stuff about Zero in the Sigma rebellion date.

-Lab accident before the unveiling of the first six robots in which one robots goes array and sets the lab on fire. An enraged Wily accusing Light of jealousy and intentionally sabotaging the experiment; which leads to Wily stealing the plans of the industrial robots and disappearing for several months.
-Rock being a courageous male human wearing a robot shell so that Wily cannot reprogram MegaMan.
-Rush transformations having impossible specs. No way Rush Marine can move that fast!
-Zero being X's trusted robocanine that died in X1. Aaarf, he wants one!

And I probably forgot a LOT of things.

578

News and Announcements / Re: MEGAMAN UNIVERSE!!!!!! (PS3/360)

« on: July 19, 2010, 03:18:05 AM »

They said in their MMPU and MHX press release:
o Get a peek at events that unfolded before the plotline of the first Mega Man X game
o Gain valuable insight into the motives of enemies and allies, even learning Sigma's reasons for starting his rebellion movement.

Clearly referencing a relation with the original story for at least MHX and MMX. MMPU is described as a similar remake with regard to MM1, so we must assume the same applies with MMPU and MM1.

579

News and Announcements / Re: MEGAMAN UNIVERSE!!!!!! (PS3/360)

« on: July 19, 2010, 02:55:11 AM »

Even though, you know, Timeman and Oilman suddenly exist.

That's why people invented Retroactive Continuity; to have one thing overwrite the other without having to start a new continuity. And if all else fails; Crisis.

Furthermore, the American press release pretty much outright states that the remakes are in-continuity with the originals.

I just figured it'd be easier not to get everything mixed up. >.>

But the US continuity has the same mix ups with itself... I don't see there being much more conflict added. The Japanese stuff mostly fixes some gaps in the plot where we never got the explanation for; see Blues' origin.

580

News and Announcements / Re: MEGAMAN UNIVERSE!!!!!! (PS3/360)

« on: July 19, 2010, 02:36:48 AM »

I think Gauntlet failed at his own effort by not including Powered Up. A US-release title is a US-released title. Stick to your own creed and incorporate it into continuity. The exclusion of both cyborgs and Powered Up is a sad black stain on Gauntlet's article. Really, Powered Up did not mention any new backstory in Japan. It fits nearly with the old, and what happened in the US was simply this; it got properly translated for once.

Why is it so hard to acknowledge that the US continuity has internal conflicts that are no different from trying to incorporate the US-exclusive factoids into the Japanese continuity? Why is it so hard to consider everything as a single whole? The same goes for incorporating the remakes. Inconsistencies were the nature of the beast; so accept them as they are. If you're telling me not to throw away the US-exclusive info, I've been telling you to not throw away the Japan-exclusive info. Why not make the mythology of MegaRockMan a grand whole?

Ok... it's official, that 15 million of DASH3 funds is gonna go to translating all the Japanese exclusive info and rewriting the history of MegaMan!

581

News and Announcements / Re: MEGAMAN UNIVERSE!!!!!! (PS3/360)

« on: July 19, 2010, 01:50:51 AM »

The seclusion was never implied in the US versions.

Wily's exile was mentioned in Mega Man Powered Up. It is US continuity too. Of course, that just means I'm going to get "Powered Up is a different continuity" thrown my way. Aside from that; the US-continuity is thus in no way different from the Japanese continuity, it is all one whole with many inconsistencies.

Furthermore, reciting myself; it is Capcom's financial whims that translates the Japanese material. Anybody with the financial backing (see Udon) can incorporate the Japanese-exclusive material into your US specific continuity. So, anybody willing to finance a huge translation exercise, or are we still gathering 15 million for DASH3?

582

News and Announcements / Re: MEGAMAN UNIVERSE!!!!!! (PS3/360)

« on: July 19, 2010, 01:20:04 AM »

"Wily being Light's assistant/partner/what have you just prior to stealing Light's robots" (US) is not "Wily went into seclusion, with the implication that his leaving it and his theft of Light's robots happened at the same time" (JP).

Wily did not seclude and steal Right's robot at "the same time." He secluded himself for some time and stole Right's robots upon his return.

What you seem to have missed however, is that both those things ARE mentioned in US sources. The latter is not Japanese exclusive, at all. Ergo, you're dealing with an inconsistency within the US-continuity.

583

News and Announcements / Re: MEGAMAN UNIVERSE!!!!!! (PS3/360)

« on: July 19, 2010, 01:00:34 AM »

My argument was, just because US continuity is an internal mess doesn't mean it can't stand on its own, separate from the JP continuity.

But if that can stand on its own, the combined mess of what the Japanese, Americans, Germans and who else wrote, can also stand together as a single continuity with many inconsistencies. Either way, you're noting inconsistencies, favoring one interpretation, and moving on.

A few, maybe it could be left alone. A lot, like the case is with Classic MM, and trying to say that both regional versions are wholly the same doesn't really work.

Thing is, what exactly is this US continuity? From the top of my head, the first biggest addition/change is the story in the MegaMan manual; the story of assistant Dr. Wily. This story is further recited and added upon in other sources such as Nintendo Power. Kobun20's Reploid Research Lavatory nicely details how this story evolved over time. It's an interesting read, especially if you really value the story as it was originally told in the US.

However, there are also sources in the US continuity that tell of the story as it is told in Japan; MegaMan8 and MegaMan and Bass come to mind. So, either one acknowledges a conflict between those two stories, or one considers them as adding to each other to paint a complete picture.

In the above example, there is no conflict between US and Japan continuity that does not exist within the US continuity itself. As such, there's no need to consider them as separate entities; the US continuity would be the same as the Japan continuity with some added stuff.

Many other things in the US continuity are solely additive; the name of the time institute, the name of the time machine, the time Wily traveled to the future. This is in no way contradictory with what the Japanese text says, and thus can help shape the overall mythology of the series, even if it is not mentioned in Japan. Something similar has happened in X1, when the Japanese took the US-written MMX1 manual and made it their own with only a few alterations.

What else is there? Some of the boxes mentions the characters as cyborgs, but that is also inconsistent with the US continuity itself; as an inconsistency, we do not consider it valid, and it makes no difference in the question of "one continuity versus two".

The only thing that remotely could warrant the existence of a second continuity is the rewrite of the actual game script instead of translating as should be. See: MM7, MMX2, MMX5. However, the same was done in such classic titles as "A Link to the Past" and "Chrono Trigger". Both games have seen a ported rerelease in recent years, with a completely retranslated script, that rectified many of the inconsistencies and yes, "mistranslations", that existed within the originals.

So, what do we do with this? It's easiest to see it all as a huge mistranslation and only the Japanese as bonafide fact. But, for all I care, the altered US script is some strange timeline split akin to IHX's two X playthroughs where everybody for some strange player input reason happens to say different thing, that are still somehow valid. You know, how bosses will say different things to X because you selected a different difficulty?

Like I said before; game stories are entirely linked to player input. What the player does can change the way the plot moves, and it is always unclear what the sequel actually goes by. As already evidenced by such titles as RockmanEXE: this player input of buying a specific version does not make a new canon or continuity. So if you really wish to include information as factual; just consider it the epitome of player input to buy the American version over the Japanese version, and consider both as valid. Just like one shouldn't really care which X playthrough of IHX actually happened, or which EXE game you actually bought.

584

Fan Creations / Re: MM Fanprojects

« on: July 19, 2010, 12:19:12 AM »

Agreed. Though, now I'm having flashbacks of all those fights it took to finally beat Burai...

Burai's attacks are the perfect example of how NES limits alter gameplay; attacks of that size are not generally considered by the developers because of the problems related with them, leading to a simplified boss pattern.

However, that's not to say it's not possible. If you want flicker, that is. Of course, in theory all of Burai's effects can be made by background tiles, that are rapidly changed by the engine. Tricky, but doable.

585

News and Announcements / Re: MEGAMAN UNIVERSE!!!!!! (PS3/360)

« on: July 19, 2010, 12:06:50 AM »

I hate to sound rude, but...What part of "not everything can overlap without conflict" did you not get? If no changes were made, then I could agree that they're both the same continuity. But that's not the case.

From the very beginning, we've said that the "US-continuity" is inconsistent with itself. You argued: Inconsistencies do not make it any less of a continuity. But at the same time you say that the US-exclusive info being inconsistent with the Japanese-exclusive info demands two continuities.

I think your stance is what's inconsistent here; if inconsistencies do not destroy continuity, then all is one continuity regardless of inconsistencies.

You note the changes. Compare the two continuities, note what's different, and move on.

In the view that there is but one continuity, what is noted are the inconsistencies. Inconsistencies do not require the creating of a continuity of its own.

According to continuity, Zero is male. Zero being female is an inconsistency written in the MegaManX1 manual published in Germany. According to continuity, Sigma is the supreme masterpiece of Dr. Cain. Sigma being the supreme masterpiece of Dr. Smith is in inconsistency written in the Capcom Sound Series Rockman X1 booklet. The Capcom Sound Series RockmanX1 booklet does not warrant a new continuity in which Sigma is the supreme masterpiece of Dr. Smith.

By that logic, no one would be allowed to talk about Sonia Belmont just because IGA struck her from the timeline.

1) Just because IGA did not mention it, does not necessarily mean it does not exist; absence of mention is not evidence of removal from continuity.
2) If stricken from the "IGA continuity" it simply means her games' story does not connect with the story of those other titles. We can strictly talk of the story of her games without trying to apply unrelated concepts from IGA's continuity to it.

Pointing a gun at an unarmed human begging forgiveness is exceedingly difficult to excuse.

Rock points the 'gun', regardless. The difference is in what he says while doing so. Or rather, in him saying anything at all: "..."

Second, an existing character later stricken from the timeline may be discussed as a valid "what if" scenario.  By taking such an extremes you rule out the validity of discussing Awakened Zero.

This is why I don't really agree with the label of "continuity" to replace "canon"; timelines aren't necessarily linear, especially not when player input exists. Just because an event does not happen according to the linear timeline a sequel established, does not mean that the event is not canon. Awakened Zero is one such example, but also VAVA mode, any of the alternate modes seen in Powered Up, and yes, even X4 within itself. Further exemplified by ZX's "choose your own gender" aspect. Maybe Gonzo wants to talk about an "Aile continuity" and "Vent continuity" but I think it has little value; it's all canon, and the true continuity leading to the far flung future of Rockman DASH favors neither.

You know, if someone were to take the time and thought that Hyper, Zan's and whoever has the urge to debate Megaman timelines in an off topic conversation like serious business and convert that into a an operation that's constructive, we could have cured cancer three times over by now.

It worries me that you do not seem to believe that people that work in scientific fields put MUCH MUCH MUCH more thought and effort into EVERYTHING they work on.

The "U.S. continuity", as I see it, consists of proper noun changes, and Roll Caskett being able to speak and choosing her favorite video game character prior to age 1.  That's pretty much it.

Considering CoA can't keep their own names straight, I'm not even granting them that much. The only thing that means that canonically, IF you go with the translated name, you have to go with the altered name origin; because it is not the same name. Which name you go by does not make a new continuity. It merely changes a few facts here and there.

the notion that one of the newbies in XCM is a female impersonator

Rather; only one of the females is mysterious, the other characters have unspecified gender. Alternatively, Marino got her hands on that copy chip and 'transformed'.

(two PLAYABLE people; Redips doesn't count).

X's new armor? Or playing as Nana when controlling those Mechaniroids.

586

News and Announcements / Re: MEGAMAN UNIVERSE!!!!!! (PS3/360)

« on: July 18, 2010, 04:13:30 AM »

Except it is, since it was added, liberty or no.

We call that a mistranslation, or a contradiction that's automatically overwritten by the additional authority held by the original; Blues does ask to find out who the more powerful creation is. He simply does so without referring to their mutual father.

Likewise, before you bring it up; MegaMan7's ending has little difference in meaning; robots still aren't supposed to hurt humans for reasons not stated as Asimov's, and Rock still failed to pull the trigger. No matter his response to Wily's mindgame, he is not more than a robot.

(At least, Megaman doesn't seem to react to MM7's "reveal" in the slightest)

The game isn't coded by the programmers to give Rock a text bubble to actually respond. In fact, being a SNES title, plot is kept to its bare minimum; Rock doesn't say much of anything unless he really has to. You're trying to give false value to the absence of text without considering how the game was made.

It still retroactively implies that the ending of MM3 wasn't just for the benefit of the player.

It implies the localizer construed the materials this way because he did not have access to the facts.

I was told that there's no difference between US and EU continuities.

There is only one continuity, plain and simple. They're all translations from the same source. Translations being made solely by financial whims. If Capcom of the region can make money translating that one book that will contradict all the crap they made up over the years, they will translate it.

Again; just because you can't read it doesn't mean it does not exist. All the Japanese exclusive information is part of your US continuity.

587

News and Announcements / Re: MEGAMAN UNIVERSE!!!!!! (PS3/360)

« on: July 18, 2010, 03:18:06 AM »

So how do you account for lingering US elements like Mega knowing that he's related to Proto? After all, CoA hasn't officially retconned that.

Considering I only know of one source that says Rock knows about ProtoMan, that is a case of creative liberty with the game script. It cannot be considered new material. A translation should be a translation, it should not be alter the meaning of the script. If it is not a proper translation of the Japanese; it is an error. Different from actually writing a new story in a separate medium.

If that doesn't satisfy you; it is a 'what if' event that only occurs in an optional path of MegaMan7, ProtoMan is not guaranteed to have revealed to Rock that he is his brother.

And you're still disregarding the fact that the US and JP continuities are separate.

How is it separate when any and all material produced in Japan is translated (read: made part of said US continuity) by Capcom of America's whim of financial gain? Just because you don't have access or aren't able to read material does not mean it does not exist. You'd only be making the case for the likes of a German continuity also existing.

588

News and Announcements / Re: MEGAMAN UNIVERSE!!!!!! (PS3/360)

« on: July 18, 2010, 02:46:48 AM »

And completely disregarded... for arbitrary reasons.

And that's exactly the opposite of what I said. I'm not disregarding anything, I'm saying any and all of this material produced by official localizers is part of this single continuity that's the same for all regions. This continuity also includes the likes of MegaMission and Challenger from the Future, with the aforementioned localization materials being treated with the same level of validity; possible to include unless in contradiction. As I said, if not additive it's "Another Story"; "Gaiden", what-ifs, and so on. And if all that fails, using the word "error" suffices.

Except most of us can't friggin' read it, and have to rely on fan translations which may or may not be influenced by the translator.

So? It's the same for Japan and all the materials produced solely in the US.

589

News and Announcements / Re: MEGAMAN UNIVERSE!!!!!! (PS3/360)

« on: July 18, 2010, 02:10:15 AM »

I'll just quote Gauntlet on this:

Just as much as you cannot say there is no US continuity because of inconsistencies with itself, neither can you say a US continuity actually exists because of inconsistencies between translated and the untranslated work. Translated and untranslated work should by definition be the same. Anything else is either new material, or in error.

So, no accounting for this?

If all is Capcom and therefore canon, then Japan too should follow what is written in US games and manuals, as has effectively happened with X1's manual. Though, inconsistencies being the nature of the beast, in all cases of conflict; we take one source as true over another based on their level of authority.

However, at nearly all times it is Capcom of Japan's productions that hold the highest authority. And with that in mind, the elements introduced by Capcom of America are little different from those we see in Bandai's products; another story.

590

News and Announcements / Re: MEGAMAN UNIVERSE!!!!!! (PS3/360)

« on: July 18, 2010, 12:47:32 AM »

The problem is, the US and JP continuities are different enough that it's impossible to talk about them as being the same thing without lots of conflict.

That's highly irrelevant. What's commonly referred to as the US continuity already has a million conflicts with itself and could hardly be called a continuity. Everybody's a cyborg in that one.

Furthermore, strictly speaking, the US and the rest of the world actually has the same continuity as Japan. Any and all differences are those that should never have been made and have already been rectified.

591

News and Announcements / Re: MEGAMAN UNIVERSE!!!!!! (PS3/360)

« on: July 17, 2010, 01:41:08 PM »

Quite a bit, actually.

'Then' is not 'Now'.

592

Zero / Re: Zero series: Why was it so successful?

« on: July 16, 2010, 03:26:52 PM »

Could it be the fun gameplay combined with the serious (and significantly less ridiculed than X) plot and per-capcom-standards awesome music and distinct graphics style?

No way!

Seriously, the series was never as dark as people make it out to be.

593

ZX / Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.

« on: July 11, 2010, 02:32:23 PM »

Girouette is a member of Guardian, and all of Guardian was issued an order to protect raid survivors, not just Girouette. It was Girouette who would carry it using Girouette Express as a secret organization within Guardian, because he's the one that turned into a Rockman. It was because of him that Prairie finally understand why her sister gave that order in the first place.

We know neither when Ciel gave the order, nor how long Guardian had been acting on it before Girouette, nor when Girouette first turned into a Rockman.

594

X / Re: The three 'Secret' characters in Megaman X8

« on: July 11, 2010, 02:00:25 AM »

I don't even care much for Layer

You Iris fanboy.

595

Fan Games / Re: Mega Girl Roll (Work in Progress)

« on: July 06, 2010, 04:33:13 PM »

Can someone Translate to Kanji The Names of the RM's

Kanji?...

596

X / Re: Do you like Axl?

« on: July 04, 2010, 06:09:25 PM »

If they ever felt like re-introducing Wily, making Axl into Zero's little brother would make a surprising amount of sense.  Copy Chips leading to the elimination of Sigma and all. 

I don't think it would make sense from the perspective of virus immunity. X and Zero have their own perfect/near perfect virus countermeasures in response to the Roboenza incident. Axl too has such an ability, different from X and Zero's, but like X and Zero in that its something the world hadn't seen before. At the same time, Axl has attributes of both X and Zero; variations of weapon copy and learning ability... As it is, I think it's almost appropriate to start giving Cossack more credit...

597

Gaming / Re: Legend of Zelda - The official Zelda thread

« on: July 03, 2010, 05:21:27 PM »

"Hm... I guess the games could fit like that. I dunno, never thought of that. I really don't give a [parasitic bomb]."

You should try asking Miyamoto where that Giant Robot Monkey fits into the timeline.

598

Gaming / Re: Legend of Zelda - The official Zelda thread

« on: July 03, 2010, 04:06:31 AM »

Hmm...

宮本氏: (時オカ→神トラ)それから初代ときてリンクの冒険という順番になる。
(電撃64、1999年1月号)

Miyamoto: (Ocarina of Time -> A Link to the Past) then comes the first and "The Adventure of Link."
(Dengai 64 January 1999)

Looks like Miyamoto rectified his previous statement a year later.

599

Gaming / Re: Legend of Zelda - The official Zelda thread

« on: July 03, 2010, 01:39:57 AM »

I don't care what they say, Monkey Island 4 wasn't canon. >_>;;;

You were caught in ghost pirate LeChuck's evil curse! In truth you are still in the amusement park with your brother Chucky. Always a great excuse to makes games nonexistent.

600

Gaming / Re: Legend of Zelda - The official Zelda thread

« on: July 03, 2010, 12:47:42 AM »

It would rule if the real power of the Triforce wasn't any of that wishing crap.

If you thought Triforce wishes were crap, you should try finding the treasure of Big Whoop. Oh well, at least the chain of events there lead to the activation of a Giant Monkey Robot.